 And we can switch now to S 16, which is the task force on a creation of a task force and school exclusionary discipline reform. And I imagine that the social workers may well want to be hearing about this. This is a concern going forward so I will turn to Jay Nichols for a response to the same three response to S 16. Good morning again everybody. So this testimony the last one also included the Vermont Council of Special Education administrators as I mentioned in the test in the written testimony. This one it's it's just VSPA, VPA and VSA. Joanne has a separate testimony that she's going to share with you after. So thanks for allowing us the opportunity to provide testimony on S 16 as passed by the Senate and sent to your committee. For the record again Jay Nichols VPA Executive Director testifying on behalf of the other associations. Additionally, we are sharing with you in written form our previous testimony on S 16 and the Senate Education Committee on January 27 2021. I sent it to Jesse so you all should have access to that. We did a very in depth piece of testimony for Senate education when this bill first came out. I mean, today they'll be specific to the version of the bill passed in the Senate. So bill purpose and findings were supportive of the purpose of the bill. We believe that collecting and analyzing data to drive further actions, planning and instructional methodology is something we all value immensely. When we have a more accurate understanding of student discipline data and the state of Vermont will be better poised to use that data to inform decisions. It's really just like reading, you know we need the data to inform the instruction. Same thing here. And again an original testimony we just we discussed this in depth in terms of the findings. We're not convinced the Vermont student exclusionary data mirrors national data and accurate accurate accounting of student discipline data is necessary. We fully support efforts to this end as we have already indicated. We have a really clear understanding of the Vermont data and what that data tells us about our practices in our schools related to student discipline in general, and exclusionary practices in particular. And the reason I say this has a lot to do with how this data gets reported. Just a quick one minute story. My first year in a system that shall not be named as an administrator. I was getting ready to do the end of the year reports. I had a principal in the system and our two buildings were supposed to do them together because one was middle school one was high school. And so we sit down together and I had everything in power school all lined up all my student discipline stuff over the year, and the other administrator came in and he had literally had this folder with a bunch of little sticky notes like this in it. And it said things like Joe Smith suspended fighting October 3. And he would have to go through all that stuff and he would have to go by his memory to try to determine did he start that fight was there going involved in that was a harassment. It was silly. And I don't know how many places were like that but I question how good the data was before she left on Amy Fowler was working with me at the AOA on trying to make some changes to the collection data system to get more of this aggregated data that you folks have in this bill says that you're looking for. Unfortunately before I got very far she she ended up leaving the state leaving the position. So I support support and I just want to say, I'm not sure how good the data that we have so far has been. I think it's probably better now than it was a few years ago but I think we need to make sure we clean that up. We agree with the creation of a council in terms of section two to collect and then analyze the data in terms of membership of the council, our organizations will all provide school administrators and other members as appropriate with the development of a school discipline advisory council. In the original section eight, it called for two special education teachers to be appointed by the remote council special educators and no special education administrators. Given the nature of special education law and the intersection between disciplinary actions and what's called a manifestation determination meetings necessary when disciplinary action is considered for a special education student. We strongly feel that at least one member of the council should be a special education director, you need somebody on the council to understand special education how that intersects with the discipline of students. I think some tightness in this area is worth looking at. I actually like when I say we I say I really mean me but Jeff and Sue signed off on this so like the original language around the advisory council make up that specifies the positions or roles that will make up the school disciplinary advisory council. For example, we the VPA was to have two principles one secondary and one elementary on the council. It might be worthwhile for you to look at that previous language and discuss the value of prescribing the composition of the council. Finally, we said this many times we're concerned that the agency of education may not have enough personnel to collect the data that this law will require and be able to share the data with the advisory council in an efficient and effective manner. We continue to worry that the AOE may not have sufficient personnel to participate meaningfully in this process and other tasks given the increasing number of responsibilities being required of them. That's just a caveat that we're throwing out there. And section six, which is the change. To the law around 1162 the same rules we believe that apply to public schools and entities should be filed and applied to private schools. Schools still have the latitude to suspend when safety is that concern. This standard should be for all children, a and younger whether in a public or private school. We've respectfully asked that you change the language to say a student enrolled in a public school or a private school slash program in which the institution is receiving public dollars for all, or part of that student's tuition. That'd be more consistent in what we've tried to do with special education and other things the last few years. Thank you for the opportunity to testify and I'd be glad to answer any questions we have at this point or after the other folks that are testifying on this issue are finished. Thank you. Joan, unruh, did you want to add something to this. Yeah. Yes. We wrote for VC SCA we wrote some separate testimony not because we had any disagreements with a testimony provided by J just now, but there were some specific issues that not only impact special education students and section 504 students. But generally, the what leads to some over identification of students in terms of some of the practices that exist around discipline. So we VC SCA definitely supports the overall purpose of this bill, and that we really do need to address exclusionary discipline practice, and the use of the accurate data provides a foundation to address issues of school climate, supporting students and productive social interactions and for guiding students and teaching students who are behaviorally challenged in school. It feels like this is a really good step in deepening our understanding of how schools can address the issues of student behavior. And we'll also help us in terms of strengthening the rule of students. The students identified that appear most frequently and the number of students experiencing exclusionary discipline students with disabilities black and Hispanic students, students from poverty. All face both implicit and explicit bias in school communities and the broader community. So knowing the numbers and categories of students experiencing disproportionate levels of exclusionary discipline is vital to understanding the scope and nature of the issues. Even though the data is only the first step in identifying the underlying issues, since Vermont is 95% or 94% white, public reporting for many of these, this data that will be collected is going to be very challenging and and it's many cases impossible, because the number of 15 required for public reporting just won't be there. However, the whole state level data will be very important in looking at these issues and it will also be useful to the agency of education in monitoring and working with local districts, to access to all of that data. So I think that it remains really important. And to echo what what Jay said the accuracy and data has at least at the time that that I was actively working as the executive director of the DCSEA I mean there were lots of stories of data not being reported when kids were invited to go home for the afternoon or for a day after some apparently egregious event happened but those were not reported as suspensions. I know that some of the data that was relied on for the kick out study also had completely missing data from at least one fairly large supervisory union in Vermont. So the, the expectation that schools keep accurate data throughout the year is is a critical step and I think will be in this bill will help that that happen. And I just given the nature of, of the additional pressures on systems due to coven. We also know that students who face discrimination by other students and adults in their community often face much greater emotional stressors than those who don't student behavior is communication. Another question is what are students communicating through their behavior that we might see as inappropriate, but feels to the child to be very appropriate to the circumstance. And just referring back to Maslow's hierarchy of human needs next to food and shelter belonging is the deepest need for children. Belonging is critical to freeing energy for learning. Kids do not learn well or effectively if they don't feel like they belong. And there is something very deeply concerning about exclusionary discipline that gives a message to students that they do not belong in actual fact. And when students don't feel they belong or understood they frequently act out through challenging behaviors or act inwardly through anxiety and depression. So we really need to pay attention to this particularly given our reintegration with following COVID. And often we misinterpret given our own upbringing and our own sort of belonging to a particular socioeconomic setting, we often misinterpret student behavior. And something that might be viewed as defiance or non compliance may actually be a deep sense of anxiety and a lack of knowledge and the students is not want to identify themselves as stupid, they would much rather crumble up that piece of paper and throw it at somebody than to be seen as stupid or inadequate. We feel like administrators teachers and other school staff need tools to understand what students are trying to communicate. In regard to the presence on the task force we agree with the our other organizations that it's very important to consider the inclusion of a special education administrator, as you all know special education law and section 504 are complex very heavily regulated and have a multi step process in terms of identifying what needs to happen in terms of discipline, there be behavior functional behavior assessments their behavior support plans, there are a lot of confestation determinations by the team to determine whether there really is a causal connection between the child's behavior and their disability. And these are steps in the process that every special educated there doesn't know intimately, and for the most part the special ed administrator is in the district the consultant on those, and those issues. Let's see. Oh, and also in terms of defining exclusionary discipline in which includes in school and out of school suspension and expulsion and restraint is listed as a dissimilar strategy in this bill, and also in the agency of guidance during coven. But we just want to remind everyone that restraint should only be used to maintain the student safety, or the safety of others or to prevent damage and destruction to property, and for the briefest period of time needed to assert safety, given the trauma history of many students restraint must be used with the most caution, and in many cases would be contraindicated. If we have students who have been sexually abused or are being sexually abused students with physical abuse histories restraint would only trigger a more pronounced response and would only add to the only add to the confusion and the distress of all who are working. So we applaud this bill for identifying as well that we really need to look at a multi tiered system of support structures for behavior, as well as academics, social emotional learning is as difficult for some as learning to read is for some, and sometimes those two overlap. So the use of a multi tiered framework is very important. And it's very important for the long term health of a school community. So the components that need to be there as a leadership team that represents the school community, and where the principal particularly is actively engaged as a school leader in this process. The team must be committed, not only to good disciplinary practice, but to long term improvement of school climate, it must embrace diversity as a strength and foster a deep sense of belonging for all. I want to also I'm just make sure that the committee will have some time to ask some questions. Moving through quick. Thank you for the thanks for pointing that out. Teaching clear expectations in the classroom in the larger school environment is really critical to strengthening the students commitment and engagement in the school. And then I just want to speak very briefly that the training for staff members is is a critical piece. With our own baggage into our jobs, and to have the opportunity to both feel supported, and to learn new skills to interact with students who behave in ways that we don't fully understand is really very critical. That includes crisis prevention and de escalation strategies, life space crisis intervention training, trauma informed practices, and others. And we also need to remember that so many of our children who come into school from areas of poverty. It's really clear in some of the research that children really get access to to language in the ages zero to three. It's such a strong case for in the interest of discipline that we really support preschool education, because so many children who receive state benefits, and live in poverty, have much much less capacity, in terms of their language when they come to school there. The research is saying that there are tens of thousands of words fewer that children from poverty, come into the school with. So they need to learn, many of these children need to learn the language of using their words in their appropriate interaction with peers and with adults, rather than acting out. And I just want to say that this is very difficult work for children who are very reactive and acting out, and staff needs a tremendous amount of support in order to do this well. So many staff embrace this role. And also there are those who don't be given their, given their own limitations. And we also build community through celebrating successes. So if children know, and have been modeled and get to practice expectations. So that's the opportunity then to also be part of the celebrations not only individually but also in the classroom and the, the larger school community. And lastly, I want to, I would want to say is that I would ask you to please avail yourselves. I would like for this committee to avail themselves of testimony first from schools who have successfully implemented a multi tiered social most social emotional learning framework. There are 164 schools in Vermont, implementing for example, positive behavior pension supports, and other more locally designed frameworks are also successful in some schools hearing from these, I think would be really very important for both you and the team. And I certainly have some recommendations regarding both some schools as well as the PBIS team. That would really augment the data that you have heard thus far. Sorry, I've spoken so long thank you so much for your attention. Thank you. I'm making up for last time I guess. I know it's been a long time and you've got a lot of these comments in writing and in your written testimony I think was just great. But I want to get to the folks mind will go to Jeff Fannin and then I'll go back to your questions. Thank you. Yeah. Madam chair, Jeff and executive director for money again. Thank you for giving me the opportunity to speak about as 16 as passed by the Senate. I should have just called Jay earlier and requested that my name be added to his, his written testimony it's good stuff. Good points. And I'll just try to echo those or amplify those and not be redundant entirely. As for looking at the makeup of the of the task force which we support. And let me let me be, let me be very clear we support as 16 we think it's a good, good bill needs to be examined and there's good data to be collected and should be collected. And as as introduced in the Senate. It was very specific about who appointed membership to the task force. And we've had a common theme, I'll say this over this last several years with concerns raised about the, the ability of the a way to take on more work and the challenges that they have. So you've left to the Secretary, the bill as as sent over from the Senate leaves the Secretary of Education, making the appointments and sort of really driving the ship and I wonder if that's consistent with the concerns we've raised and several of the organizations have raised over the last several years about the putting more work on the back of the AOE without resources attached to it so I do raise that concern and maybe the way to address it is what Jay suggested which is look back to the as introduced bill and look to the appointing organizations that they can then perhaps help the agency push this along a little bit because it is an important issue to collect the data and and have the task force look at this information so support. Maybe looking at examining that. And the other piece I should again it's nice to follow smart good people and articulate people. Joanne just mentioned, I think maybe not directly but mentioned professional development for staff. And that's not I don't see that in in s 16. If I miss it. I could be disabused of that but perhaps we look at review in school services and availability including professional development for staff. It's important that staff also be trained, how to recognize their implicit, in some cases, explicit biases, and try to figure out ways to address those so I will again email Jim day moray on that. And I'll make my note here. Thank you. Another piece of Jay's point, well taken a section six of the of the bill, suggesting that this also be applied to private schools and pre K programs. So, I think that's a good catch and I support that with that said we support s 16 with some modest adjustments perhaps, and have it take questions and I know that there are questions already. But there are thank you and if you all could sort of organize those into a list for me that would be great. Represent I'm going to actually jump for a minute and go representative Brady because she's been following this the most. If you don't mind it. And she's also got a childhood home so representative Brady. Thank you. Yes, I got some through some goldfish at my second grader for a few minutes here. So actually exactly to what you just raised Jeff and which is the professional development piece and it's also in in the testimony here from Joanne point number three administers teachers and other school staff need tools and strategies to understand. And that's my concern is I support this 10,000% the spirit of it but how do we make it actually work it's one thing to tell schools. Don't don't kick kids out my heart sinks when I get the email that so and so will be out for three days and then back in the planning room for two days please send down a packet. Because I know that kid is now just going to be further and further behind and was often behind before that. But I'm worried that nothing in the bill right now really gets at. How do what how do we do it better how do we how do we do those supports in schools how our administrators and administrative teams prepared and how our teachers prepared. I mean I don't think high school teachers get really any training truthfully around discipline as schools become more trauma informed it's becoming part of the ethos but. But I don't think it's you know at the higher levels even something that's routine and teacher development, but schools are pulled a lot of directions right now so I'm concerned about. I want to do this but do it well. So how what what do we need how can we do that so that we aren't telling schools what they can't do but they are set up with the tools for what they need to do. I don't know how much of that is legislation how much of that is outside of our purview but I really appreciate the point you're raising Jeff. Thank you. Representative conlon and then Austin. Thanks very quickly section six, which is, which Jay had commented on about needing to expand that to private schools. Well, Jeff said, including pre K. I don't think I heard you say including private pre K. And I just wanted to sort of know kind of where your comments began and ended on that. Yeah, definitely including private PK. Absolutely needs to be same for all Vermont kids that are receiving any public funding to support their school experience. Thank you for asking that. Okay. Representative Austin. Yes. Thank you. When I, you know, read this section, I am concerned about the title of it, because I don't believe that excluding a child at least in my experience, you know in the public schools, excluding a child wasn't a form of discipline. And that was to try to figure out a plan and how to give the give students and teachers the skills and knowledge they need to remain in the classroom it. It was devastating, you know, the educators I work with to take any child out of a classroom and deny them access to their education was pretty devastating. It was the last resort and usually it was like Jay said a question of safety to themselves or to other students or that their behaviors and I believe and maybe Joanne would agree it was because they don't have the skills, you know that they need, we need to understand the behavior and talk to them. I think it's really important to be able to learn the skills to be able to regulate their emotions and remain in classroom but the other reason I think kids had to leave the classroom was because they were their behavior was getting in the way of other kids being able to do that. I mean to think that taking a child out of school and putting them at home is going to teach them how to be back, you know, be able to be in a classroom to me is just. I kind of think of it looking at exclusionary practices, you know that's my concern but I don't know where discipline fits in there because I've never seen it used as a discipline that it's going to change their behavior, so they can re enter the classroom. So that to me that's a little just ingenuous and I totally appreciated Joanne's testimony I, I, I align with everything she said in terms of understanding their behavior teacher training but again, you know I look at it as skills you know what skills does that student need to acquire to be in the classroom. So, you know I just want again like with literacy I just want to do what works I want to look at what's evidence based, what practices are being used in terms of, you know students that don't have the ability to regulate their emotions or focus or sustain their attention in the classroom, and how do we help them, you know what what do we do but I just wanted to be what works so who's whatever comes out of this Council. I'm just hoping they'll look at, you know, really good data in terms of what practices and methods work to address this issue because no no educator I knew ever wanted to take a kid away from their learning. The only thing I can add to what you just said or just offer is that the PBIS team that works through UVM with education dollars, they've been working since 2008. And now there are 164 schools that are involved in this process, but there is a framework and working with students at the universal level, like it is for literacy and reading is so remains critical as you're saying, you know teachers for the most part do not want kids to leave the classroom if possible and they want their students privacy to be record be supported. And I think getting some testimony from the experience of that framework and other public school frameworks where there has been success I think would be very helpful to the work on this from this committee or task force. We will have an opportunity to look at this task force and see if there are areas that we might want to change to amend. I appreciate we've got some experience in the committee in this area between the guidance counselor a special educator and a high school teacher. Everybody else. I think that we, we have a real interest in doing something about this. Appreciate you your testimony. And we will. The anyways that we amend this bill will be on our website so. Thank you. And with that, we will break for lunch. I, the language is getting worked out in the Senate bill and in the, in the appropriations committee that we talked about. They are working on that and we'll see what's going to happen.