 Okay so maybe like 20% and are those are any of those in production of what you would consider like a pilot or production pilot? Okay so more experimentation. There's plenty of production. Oh okay I missed that. Thanks Jim too. Okay all right so a lot as the panelists are really part of the communities that open source communities that are driving this I think one thing that the voice we don't have represented is are the enterprise requirements so I think maybe towards the end of the panel it'd be great to open it up for some dialogue where we can hear from you what you'd like to see and maybe after you learn a little bit more about the respective communities you'll have a better sense of what you might want to ask the panelists so I think we can are you guys going to sit? You're welcome to stand. So I mean I was reflecting hyperledger basically was born in December of 2015 although didn't have the name hyperledger at the time so we're about like almost seven years in and I think in the early days a lot of it was just about you know which layer one are you using and there were a lot of debates about which one's better and I think now the industry's come to realizing it's a multi-chain world people are far along enough that they use different protocols and they're thinking about connecting them they have applications that might want to talk to different apps we actually for those of you who are members had really good sessions yesterday where there was a chance of members to say what they're looking for going forward on interop and hybrid so I encourage anyone next year to come to that and if you're not a member to consider one that's one of the benefits is to get sort of the inside scoop and to be able to share there was much more interactive dialogue versus this panel which would be mostly just hearing from the leaders of these communities but I did want to start just with introduction so Rama if you wanted to go first and I just introducing myself I'm Sophia Lopez one of the founders of Kaleido which is a Web3 infrastructure platform and we're very active with Hyperledger Firefly okay great hi I'm Rama I'm a maintainer on the viewer last project so just a bit of history I've been with IBM research for over 11 years now I've been working with Hyperledger technologies since the inception of the project I was sort of a beta tester for what used to be called open blockchain which involved into Hyperledger fabric and since then I've been working on different kind of solutions I worked on Hyperledger fabric performance measurement actually not limited to fabric but fabric was our main focus and since the end of 2018 I've been focused on the interoperability goal that is given that we have all these permissioned networks that are out there and so many varieties of DLTs they're not all going away so how do the all these networks coexist because we are not going to have one network to rule them all we're not going to have all networks coalesce into one so how do you make them how do you make these networks and these different DLTs work together and what exactly does that mean what is the value add that we need to provide which is crucial to growing the blockchain ecosystem so hello I'm Takuma Takeuchi I'm a maintainer of Hyperledger characters I'm also a belonging of Fujitsu Fujitsu as a blockchain research manager yeah so so so I'm I'm working as a maintainer for two two years and so with the with the activity of the development of Hyperledger characters in blockchain interoperability so I like to accelerate the block art so token economy token economy technology beyond across beyond the various industry industry field yeah nice to meet you my name is Jim Zhang one of the co-founders of Kaleido before starting Kaleido I was a committer on Hyperledger fabric now I'm one of the maintainers on Firefly also a member of the Hyperledger technical steering committee I think today we're going to focus on interop which is one of the things that Firefly can be used for but Firefly is a a bigger project that covers a lot of integration concerns and connecting to blockchains to have high quality developer experience we can touch on those as we go along yeah actually I think Jim that's a great segue to one of the first questions that we all wanted to cover which is what is the difference between integration and interoperability when you're looking at decentralized networks and web three solutions okay I guess I have the mac I can get started well you touched upon that when you were a description of what you're doing yeah yeah so when we work with with our customers we started Kaleido as a platform we started with the blockchain layer to make sure it's very easy to stand up blockchains of all kinds of protocols but then very quickly we realized that our customers when they build the full solution on blockchain the blockchain itself is just 10 percent the rest of the 90 percent they have to have a queue to send transactions reliably they have to have a event listener to to get events from the chain reliably so they can coordinate the off-chain reactions to events on chain so a blockchain is not going to be a component that stands alone from the rest of the IT systems it needs to have ingestion of data from from the rest of the IT systems and when certain events happen on blockchain there needs to be oftentimes there there needs to be reactions in the rest of the IT systems so between blockchain and the rest of the core IT that concern is mostly categorized as integration so blockchain can work with everything else around them interop is mostly around between blockchains so you have one fabric doing doing let's say tracking trades for your supply chain when it moves to a certain stage you want to do payment on a separate network maybe running on ethereum using tokens to do payment so those two transactions need to happen in the atomic way and that's about interacting interactions between two chains so that's interop so if you picture in your head a two-layer sort of picture one is you have all kinds of blockchains and you have arrows going across them that's interop but then you have your app layer that talks to one or two or many of the blockchains and from between the app and the blockchains and between the app and your core IT that's firefly I'm sure the others will have other yeah what is cactus's approach to interoperability so so that so in so among the among the cactus development so I think it is more it is important is to the so about so the blockchain diversity so the so as you know so the not not only the ethereum fiber ethereum of fabric there are a lot of there are many types of blockchain for example the hybrid india this is so dedicated blockchain for identity management and also for example a high pressure ill heart this is so dedicated blockchain for cdbc asset so so in order to so the unifying so the the api for the heterogeneous blockchain so the I think it is you it is important to design and code calls the the abstract abstract feature to this api yeah okay and then Rama what just explained to the audience so cactus was a contribution from Fujitsu and Accenture and now Rama you are part of weaver so I was curious what weaver's approach was to interoperability and now weaver and cactus have combined and it's cacti so maybe you could comment on that as well so one is interoperability to weaver and then what does it mean that these two communities are coming together from a cross-chain perspective sure I'll begin with your original question to Jim about the difference between integration and oh yeah okay yeah so I see it as there's a spectrum of solutions so at its core interoperability to me means the ability to for two or more blockchain systems to be able to come together and communicate and talk to each other in a way that can solve a purpose that requires all those systems to work together so that in the mode is my most general definition of interoperability now how how tight you want those blockchain systems to get or how loosely coupled you want them to be that's a choice you can make so I think there's spectrum solutions you can have that the closer they get you can think of it as you're integrating two different blockchain systems the more loosely coupled you get you can think of it as a somewhat more independent kind of interoperability between the systems so the weaver approach tries to go as close to the independent end of spectrum as possible so our core design principles involve uh if you have your blockchain network it's built on a particular DLT stack be it fabric or Bezu or any technology outside of haphazard like Corda you run your applications as you would you do not have to change your stack we will not go and ask fabric to change its code we will not go and ask Corda to change its code but we will provide the enablers that allow you to perform transactions that require some kind of cross-chain or cross-network operation and we have a particular taxonomy of such operations we categorize them into the ability to share data from one smart contract in one ledger to a different smart contract in a different ledger there's the ability to exchange assets or to conduct an atomic swap and then there's the ability to transfer an asset from one ledger to another that is you burn an asset in a ledger and recreate it in another so collectively we uh our observation was that this sort of covers almost all of the cases you want in real production grade enterprise application which involves more than one blockchain so this is what interoperability means to us the ability to conduct cross-network transactions across different ledgers but allowing the networks to remain autonomous and retain their own self-governance policies okay and then just the final one i was curious for you to round out with is just weaver coming together a cactus form a cacti so what do you what do you feel that means for those communities with respect to like interop in the roadmap there sure so just a brief history i think takuma already referred to this and i think you've you've heard the history in presentations if you were here yesterday and also i think today cactus started in the early 2020 in the last hyperledge global forum and it's been an open source project for more than two and a half years now we were started off as as an IBM research project in 2019 and we published research papers on it for about a year and a half going to two years and then we open sourced it as a lab project in the end of q1 of last year and the philosophies of the two projects are quite related we we both aim for the design principles that i just articulated and there are some differences in the technical approach but they broadly fall under the spectrum that i talked about so the goal of bringing the two projects together was one we aim to achieve the same thing but by bringing the two projects together we can provide a spectrum of features that you as network developers or administrators can use you can pick and choose from a set of features and then you can use a common platform that will be that that we are going to create which will through the merge between cactus and we were and that way you can engineer your networks to conduct transactions across across each other great thanks maybe start go back to jim now so jim just to help the audience he's probably wondering there's all these projects we're hearing about you know how would you differentiate when it would be useful to work with firefly community on projects versus the new combined cacti community yeah absolutely so i'd say firefly you want to use firefly for every project you have a blockchain component in because it just makes it much easier to uh to interact with blockchain so but it's it's not fair because we're we want to focus on the interop so with in if interop is your concern firefly can still help you because a single firefly instance can be connected to multiple blockchains it's very easy in fact i think it was announced in the previous sessions that we just released one dot one which has a very significant enhancement compared to one oh is you have a single instance that can be connected to multiple chains on the per namespace basis which means what you can do within your application layer with firefly is you can coordinate among multiple blockchain so you can listen to event in your fabric chain with the track and trace using that example so when the event triggers that says this this batch of goods has arrived at its destination then you can do the corresponding payment on the other chain so with firefly this just makes it very simple to do of course if you you ask the interop experts they will say this is one mode of interop which is going through a trusted third party or a trusted off-chain component which you know is depending on your needs can be a fair option for you to choose and firefly is pretty easy to to build on top of to achieve this type of architecture and i'll let the others comment on other modes of interop and why you might use cacti for yeah so takuma maybe some use cases for cacti and any if there's any in production or you'd want to share as part of that yeah so this is not production ready but so uh this is uh some uh so uh so uh so uh so uh uh i i i am using of cacti cacti now new name cacti for the climate change action so this is so uh so uh the p you are our for this is p o c we saw the i h i this is so japanese heavy heavy industry company so the uh so this is so uh so cacti cacti has a role of the connector between so the uh so uh the carbon carbon accounting so uh laser and so the uh and the environmental uh value laser yeah so uh so uh for uh so so you know what so yeah so this is one of the use case of the uh so the uh the yeah the climate change yeah thank you okay so an esg type use cases and roma anything you'd want to add in terms of use cases or just approaches i think jim mentioned one approach to interoperability if you want to add any any other sort of patterns of deployment that you're saying sure uh i mentioned the three broad interoperability modes earlier data sharing asset exchanges asset transfers one use case i'll talk about is something you can uh you can read about it's uh so we were last year was used by uh bank of france and hsbc in a in a set of use cases which involved experimentation on central bank digital currency so what the scenario involved was you had uh different networks they were one of them was built in fabric another was built in corda and uh we were doing different kinds of transactions across them so there was one network which maintained securities another which maintained cpdc accounts and uh a natural use case there was if you're paying for if you want to sell a security on one network on securities network you want to get payment but where will you get the payment on the uh digital currency network so you need the ability to do an atomic swap across the two networks so you can just have a security getting transferred in one network and without any guarantee that the payment will happen on the other so engineering across network transaction using a trust worthy protocol is important and with we were we have such an asset exchange protocol using the htlc mechanism which many of you may have heard of if not uh i'll be talking about it in a presentation on we were tomorrow uh then there were other instances where you had to uh these networks were doing coupon redemptions uh for which they needed to communicate uh ledger state or some records in one ledger to a different ledger so they use the we were in a what we call the data sharing mode which is where you uh one from one ledger you can make a request to another and the uh requestee provides not just the data but also authenticity proof that the record was uh that the record is uh valid and was committed in a uh in a previous transaction and the receiving network can then get the data and then validate that the proof is uh uh accurate so uh these were several cases that were uh uh successfully demonstrated in that poc last year and uh yeah i think i'll uh maybe we can touch on other topics later okay um anyone else want to add any other use cases just going to open it up before okay yeah um use cases that involve cross-chain there are a ton of them and we continue to see more and more uh earlier in my session talking about technology adoptions in recent years i was very encouraged to see that uh a whole bunch of advanced technologies that when i built the chart for i thought those are bleeding edge but when i asked the audience are you doing these everybody well for every one of them there was a bunch of hands uh going up so i was very encouraged to see that so specifically for um uh hybrid chains i think that's uh one of the more popular patterns with enterprise use cases because um in the previous years the enterprise space has been focusing on permission chains right solving existing pain points uh or creating a uh token economy in the in this controlled walk gardens uh space but then uh pretty uh quickly they realized okay i've got i've solved my pain points but how do i encourage other other players in the in the industry to participate you need some sort of uh incentive right nothing like a token to act as an incentive so they a lot of them figure out that if i allow the crypto holders to inject their values into this ecosystem and do that investment uh let the the proceeds grow and so at some point they can cash out that will be a great way to uh to encourage usage of the ecosystem they built so um and then we will we see naturally a interop scenario right you have the side chain you have the public chain and there's token bridges acting in between uh so there's a lot of very similar scenarios like that um coming into uh into uh space okay i did want to transition a little bit about the challenges or gotchas as you're looking at cross chain or interoperability around security or privacy or usability things that um folks in the audience should keep in mind is they're building their solutions out yeah uh so i mean okay yeah so uh so uh in uh in the cactus uh cactus issues so uh so for example firefly has a great so the uh GUI management tool but so the cactus that doesn't have yet such such such GUI tool yes so uh so uh in uh in cactus we need so uh we uh yeah uh i will uh i would i would consider about so the uh creating uh developing the GUI to run GUI management uh GUI management management tool uh for the uh management for the for the managing so the uh business business logic yeah and so uh i think so that this uh this cactus GUI is useful for uh useful for the uh so uh firefly's uh knowledge and cause so uh maybe uh we uh there's the possibilities that we uh we are collaborate yeah thank you okay and rama if you want to add anything i'll deal with each of those topics a little bit so security uh one of the express goals that we had when we were creating viewer was uh you already have an uh you you're building a rather complex network if you take fabric you have you're to build uh you have to bring together several set of nodes running under different organizations you decide which of them are endorsing which of them are committing you have to select yet another set of order nodes it's a rather complex uh uh structure and there are a lot of hidden pitfalls when it comes to when that security expert can look at and say okay you you you may have problem here one thing we explicitly did not want to do was to increase the burden on security professional we wanted to make sure that we did not increase the uh trust footprint that you would require if you use viewer as a solution uh for your network to interrupt it with another so what we did was we uh we tried to institute mechanisms that you can use as uh augmentations to what you you already have in your network uh you you're already like take fabric network you're already deploying and running chain code we will just require you to run one extra piece of chain code that is provide some function that you need uh you you you extend your uh uh client applications to just import viewer libraries to trigger particular calls and you add one more component which is we call a relay but which uh if we if you have time we can talk about standards which uh we are talking with other people about standardizing into a sort of common gateway appliance for networks uh but when you add a relay to your network like an ordering service it uh it is a it's an extra component we we want to make sure that the relay is completely trustless as you don't have to trust it for as you don't use it as a trusted third party so security issues are very important i mean if uh if if my if the solution that we are providing to your network is uh results in additional security vulnerabilities you're likely not going to use it so we wanted to eliminate or at least minimize any security issues so uh we have some uh we have a lot documentation on that uh we have some research so uh there may be still a lot of work to do on that uh we have to make sure that it's validated by security professionals and all that uh privacy is another uh topic i mean uh privacy is hard enough within network as it is uh in fabric we have different solutions for like channels pdcs and you may have heard the talks on fabric private chain code uh cross chain privacy is yet another dimension of heart so i don't claim to have solved the problem it's an active research question so uh would solicit all your uh thought and input on that usability uh i think there's a lot we can learn from firefly in this respect uh we do want to make sure that we are not trading off usability i mean security is great we don't want to completely give up usability for that so uh at least in in cactus and we were we have uh apis that make it rather quite easy for developers to handle and uh uh yeah we will be looking to firefly to actually lead the way on that and we'll be boring as much as possible okay i actually was thinking uh we've about 10 minutes left i wanted to ask if there's any questions from the audience since we've got some great subject matter experts on the stage and then you could get a sense for what's on people's mind and what they're looking for from the community so i think i could bring the mic over is there anyone who has any questions okay maybe you could say who you are and what you're working on yeah my name is uh vipin parathan no the famous vipin okay great okay so um my question is why does everybody hanker after atomic swaps it doesn't happen in the real world right now because especially when trading securities and so on there's a settlement delay and all that uh so uh it has other uh ramifications because security trading happens uh in a setup where there is credit uh involved meaning you when you don't settle like if i sell you a security and you don't pay me right away there are many reasons for that you know you're you're a bank i'm a bank uh or you're a big customer so why does everybody go for atomic swaps it is a it is a uh it's a practice in uh networks like bitcoin and all that because of obvious i mean i don't know about bitcoin but other networks because it's a public network with very unknown participants but uh okay well tough question from a financial services expert who wants to take it jim so there's a saying in chinese that the um would let the experts go last so i can just throw something out so you guys can uh hit that my view is atomic swap is just one of the more mature um uh cross-chain technologies that there is definitely a need for uh may not make sense in the some of the financial industry scenarios but definitely makes sense in some other scenarios and it absolutely makes sense when you don't have trusted parties in between so i think that's what mostly uh this is used for that the two parties that are doing swaps don't trust each other each other they need a mechanism to make sure they can exit without the other party when the other party is cheating they they can exit without any loss but i think it definitely makes it's definitely true that it's just one mechanism for example the token bridge i was mentioning earlier doesn't do swap but it's very useful right so there are different modes of interop yeah also uh i'm also the uh so uh so uh so the atomic swap is very very useful in the for for especially so the financial situation and so the uh so uh so uh so uh atomic swap is useful in the numeric asset but so the uh we so uh we we should provide the more so uh ordinary so uh so uh the original method uh original original based method and so the and also the uh cactus provides so the uh sub feature of the uh ht htlc and so the uh we uh we cover the these uh use case yeah so the answer can be different depending on whether you put on a technologist hat or a business person's hat so as a technologist you know going from the classical database world where you have system you have protocol like two phase commit right they are rather elaborate protocols you can you can allow different replicas to just uh sink in their own time without regard to uh atomicity or consistency right but two phase protocol commit protocols serve real purpose so from a technologist perspective doing an atomic swap across two decentralized chains in a decentralized manner seems like the right solution so now putting on a business person's hat you're right i mean we have uh when we uh what we've heard from uh clients our performance matters a lot and uh atomic swaps if they do not deliver adequate level performance in those settings we may ultimately end up using uh solutions that involve trusted parties which do not but without strict atomicity yeah okay thanks okay any other questions yeah to stir the pot need some pot stirs here we have like five minutes left oh great all right maybe you could let everyone know who you are as well and what you're working on hi my name is flora i am from phaser i lead the blockchain division of phaser my question is like we have cross-chain we have all the technologies great technologies and great community working behind that but from the enterprise sector what we face is like the use case of all these technologies right so is there any place where i can go and find out firefly is there these are the enterprises using firefly for their use case or cactus or cacti is there with weaver these are the enterprises using that one so that i can use that an example and build a business case out of it thank you you're jim smiling you want to lead it off again it's a great question i think that's um something we're continuing to work on the we have many customers are at different stages of adopting the technology some have been using them like gen one of firefly in production for many years some are just uh porting to from gen one to gen two which is what we have on on hyper ledger firefly some are just starting to build on firefly i think we can we definitely can go back and and do uh some inventory uh i i do agree that this will help um the potential uh prospect adopters to see okay this is used here that makes sense that use there that makes sense and i'm pretty close to that kind of use case so maybe i should try that too yeah i appreciate the the kuman rom any comments on that yeah so uh we so uh maybe all almost the same same comment but we we are uh i'm also trying to uh so various uh use case using so the cross chain technology and so the uh so uh so uh i'd like to challenge to the other another another use case uh yeah another use case yeah so yeah so i agree yeah thank you you uh thanks so uh i mentioned one use case that we were was uh used for last year in a proof concept uh there are several others like with uh firefly as jim mentioned uh in different stages of uh work with the client there's some that uh be actively worked on somewhere we're talking to them unfortunately i'm not at liberty to share details of that right now but hopefully very soon and even with the cacti that is the cactus and the weaver team have been having periodic meetings with several organizations to understand their their needs and uh yeah hopefully we'll put out more information as it comes by very soon so now i put on my kaleido hat so you you're welcome to come to us and then we'd be very happy to share privately with you more information and i don't know if we have nda with fizer but we can share more yeah and then well i like the buffloris question is it's very pragmatic uh and i i was thinking each of the projects has a web page that's part of the hyperledger website and just i mean sounds like what you did with the bank of france and hsvc is public so if that could go on the web page for cacti and then for firefly know we've had various webinars where people have spoke from like life in annuity nationwide and prudential uh pnc the large car um sort of first notice a loss use case and other ones were so maybe just putting a link to the webinars where they were actually speaking and then a list of who the companies are large conglomerates in thailand trade finance with a bunch of macquarie mutsui and others but but they're not on the web page for the projects so that could be like a very easy way to make more visible what others are doing in the industry so that people can look at the use cases and say oh this is something people are really using i could even call them up and ask them what their experience is like i could show this internally to my management to just show there's adoption of these technologies so that was a great question hopefully we we can implement that right away uh so speaking on behalf of hyperledger i would say that there are a number of user stories that exist already on the website okay not necessarily about interoperability okay but i think this is a good place to add those as well yeah and that's uh tracy who leads a technical steering committee he does a great job leading yep but thanks um so more great context and places to look at so we're almost done but if someone has like a burning question they want to ask before we adjourn you could probably squeeze oh daniella does all right great well how do they how do they get involved yes so thanks daniella question was what can hyperledger help the projects to get more adoption and to get a better uh ingestion of requirements from the customers um i think you guys are already doing a really great job because when we open the booth so many people want to come to firefly booth and and learn about it um but i guess uh there was one incidence where we were somewhat surprised that um seems like our leadership team uh from from the foundation can be told more about firefly in general because a lot of them don't speak about firefly when they when they give talks so i think uh that i don't know what's the best way to to make that happen but i think um when they go on stage and talk about of um hyperledger in general just mention firefly what it does and mentioned cactus what it does i think that that that'll have great effect yeah so almost the same so uh so uh mention mention hyper high firefly cactus and also the uh we are we we are always waiting in the uh so discord channel on hyperledger so uh please please please please feel free to uh contact us yeah thanks i'll echo what uh jim and takuma said i think hyperledger is already doing a great job at uh promoting all the projects under hyperledger the main ones and the labs uh we have uh uh it's super easy to uh uh start a github repo uh host discord channels everything so if any of you want to contribute please go to the github repositories go to the discord channels etc maybe the one thing that hyperledger can do in addition is like projects like ours which are uh inherently uh enabling other different blockchains to link together maybe can advertise it a bit more so we have uh several different different blockchains and other kinds like indy sawtooth iroha fabric etc uh maybe it's can be advertised uh upfront on on the hyperledger uh forums on the main website for example that the way to link these systems or the way to provide a common view across different chains look to projects like firefly or or cacti so that'd be great oh charles has a question maybe this is the last one okay this better this is going to be a good question right so the the ea the enterprise ethereum alliance has a cross chain working group uh the ea is not there to build software right the hyperledger managers open source software development projects and we're trying to essentially write specifications so that multiple software projects like these can actually interoperate and work together so the question is how do we how do we tighten that collaboration and how do we make it clear you know people like data chain who you know produce software our members of both um people like consensus who are working on the standards that ea is trying to develop how do we tighten that conversation and make sure we're actually talking to you guys as implementers of you know what amount to reference implementations and therefore you know core drivers of what should this the specifications say and how it should work hmm okay yeah i think we had a good chat yesterday about this so uh we uh when we are designing uh uh protocols for interoperability we want to be i mean it would be great because we are in the business of mitigating the diversity and heterogeneity you see right so standards are our best friend here and uh i mentioned there's a standards there's a group that's working towards trying to standardize internet work communication protocols and it'd be great if the ea could join that and contribute to that if we can get standards in this world that are as ubiquitous and university accepted as tcpip or http protocols are then we are 90 percent of the way towards being interoperable thank you so uh yeah so uh so we are very glad to uh so that uh discuss and discuss about so the uh so uh standardization of the uh cross change so uh so uh later so we discuss yeah thank you yeah hi chiles uh chiles has been leading the the many standards authoring uh at ea which i used to actively uh participate um but i think uh we need to sort of think about a balance between allowing the the community to to independently uh innovate versus at some point say we've got enough uh diversity in the approaches let's think about how to work together um i think it's always a challenge for ea to create a standard not too early uh to sort of stifle uh innovation or you know nobody look at it right if you can publish standards but nobody looks at it it's not very useful yeah exactly um so so but but but i think standard is is critical for the cross chain space because naturally uh this is about working together which standard is the best for so definitely looking forward to uh going back to contribute more over there thank you yeah i guess i have a mic so i guess would close out i would just reflecting with the evm becoming somewhat of an industry standard evm compatible chains even across different layer ones it's interesting some of those mechanisms emerge so i wanted to thank everyone on the panel for participating and an audience for some great questions i do believe there's something at six o'clock so like a meetup a double in meetup that's happening in the solution center so there might be some people external to the hyper ledger community but blockchain leaders who will be here so it might be a chance to meet some interesting people who are are local and looking to learn more about what we do at hyper ledger but i thank you all and probably we'll see you all in the hallways uh during the next few days thanks everyone