 Good morning, or good afternoon, or good evening to everyone listening in to this webinar on behalf of the Institute of International European Affairs. I'd like to extend a warm welcome to you for this special event we have with the special representative of the UN Secretary General and head of the UN Stabilization Mission and the DRC Leila Sarugi. We're delighted, absolutely delighted to have Leila speaking to us today. The time of great challenge for the DRC and also for the UN and its role within the DRC. So we look forward very much to what Leila will have to say to us. This is the final event of 2020 for the IAEA's Development Matters series, which is supported by Irish aid. The special representative will speak to us for about 20 minutes and then we will go into a Q&A session. Both sessions are on the record. Please feel free to join the discussion using the Q&A function on Zoom. You can send in questions throughout the session as they occur to you and we will get to as many of them as possible in the Q&A session. You can join the discussion on Twitter using the handle at IAEA and we are also live streaming this event. So with that I'd like to invite Alan Gibbons who is the Africa Director with Irish Aid to offer a few words of introduction to our speaker. Alan. Thanks very much, David, and good afternoon. I wish to warmly welcome special representative Zarugi to this Development Matters lecture. I want to thank you SRSG for joining us today and speaking to us about the work of the UN Stabilization Mission in the Democratic Republic of Congo, Monusco, which you've led for almost three years. SRSG Zarugi was appointed Special Representative of the UN Secretary General and Head of Monusco in February 2018. She previously served as Special Representative of the Secretary General for Children in Armed Conflict and Deputy Special Representative of the Secretary General in Monusco. SRSG Zarugi is a distinguished legal expert in the fields of human rights and the administration of justice. She has served as Chair and Member of the Working Group on Arbitrary Detention under the United Nations Human Rights Council, as well as in a number of roles in its predecessor, the Commission on Human Rights. She has also served as a Member of the Supreme Court of Algeria. We are delighted to have such a very distinguished speaker with us today. Your engagement with us comes at a most opportune moment. Just ahead of the anticipated renewal of the Monusco mandate later this month. A day after your most recent briefing of the UN Security Council on the Secretary General's latest report on Monusco. And just over three weeks before Ireland will take our seat for two years on the UN Security Council from the beginning of January. Ireland has a long and proud tradition of peacekeeping. This year marks the 60th anniversary of our first deployment of troops to a UN peacekeeping mission in Africa in 1960 to the ONU Commission in what is today DRC. This mission largely contributes military personnel to the Monusco mission and has done so since its inception. It is important that we acknowledge the significance of the mission in DRC, especially in terms of having a positive impact on the lives of the Congolese people. Supporting the stabilization of large parts of the DRC, while strengthening governance and seeking to protect human rights. It has done in spite of the persistent persistent activities of armed groups, which have sought to undermine peace, security and humanitarian operations, especially in Eastern DRC and remain a cause of serious concern. We seem to be entering a critical period for Monusco and the DRC in terms of both politics and security. As a representative, I look forward to hearing your insights on how the gains achieved so far can be ensured and consolidated. As the mission continues to grapple with the additional challenges arising from the COVID-19 pandemic and through the progressive and phase drawdown of the mission over the coming years. We have a clear interest in the consolidation of stability and prosperity in the DRC and the wider region. And we see Monusco as an important partner in this context. We look forward to continuing that support as UN Security Council members from next month. I'm very much looking forward to hearing your talk today and the conversation that will follow. Thank you again for being with us today. Thanks, Alan. Later you have the floor. Thank you very much, David. Thank you, Alan. Thank you, the Institute of International and European Affairs for the invitation, for choosing this subject, for allowing us to exchange with a future member of the Security Council. As you know, a mission, peacekeeping mission is the baby of the Security Council. The mandate is given by the Security Council and we report and we are accountable vis-à-vis the Security Council. For us it's very important that new members are interested in our work here and following what will, how their contribution can help peace, stability and security. And as you mentioned, you were supporting this mission from its first days. And I think that this is for us a great opportunity. So I would like really to emphasize this. David and me, we knew each other in New York when, in my previous capacity as SRG for Children on Conflict and they enjoyed at the time your support and the support of Ireland on many issues. So I would like to emphasize this. And I hope that in this context also the mission and the Congolese people will enjoy the support to help them improve, move in the right direction and build and strengthen the stability and the preventing crisis in this country. 100 million inhabitants, 2.5 million square kilometers, nine bordering countries, some of them also in conflict or with and armed with a mission like Central African Republic, like South Sudan. So to speak about today, if we don't have just a look for the past, we may not understand the mission is here since 1999. Monuk at the time. And then in 2009, the Monuk become monusku, the S of stabilization came in to focus on the stabilization and not just on ending conflict. When the mission arrived in this country, the country was, the world was raging the whole country. Nine international nine armed forces from nine countries were fighting in this country. So that that was from where the mission started. If we think about this time where the whole country was a cut in war, the country was divided between the East, MLC in the West, and after coming to Kinshasa, etc. All this. When we think about today and we speak about conflict. When I arrived in 2008, the situation was almost the whole country was affected by conflict when I was DSRG at the time deputy special representative rule of law. And we turn in 2008, we were present in 16 provinces out of 26. After the election of 2008, when we managed to help this country to have a peaceful election, that was really high risk for the stability of the country, two years delay tension at the highest point. And then we help with our partner with the Congolese with many people to help this process to go through smoothly and have an election that ended peacefully with transfer of power from a president that was that took power in the condition you know, by arms, and then a president that come from the opposition, the historic opposition, the father of Chesa Kehdi, as you know, UPS. For me, coming from South as an Algerian as an African, I consider that this is the beginning of the positive process whatsoever we can say about the election, because you cannot come from war from taking power by force from inherited it from your father, or from God to become a democracy. It's always a process. And the process start to advance when you have alternates. If you have the same people elected there is no democracy, you are still in the risk of one day someone will throw you out. Having someone that leave power through election is not nothing. And that's why, when we managed to go through this process, the mission decided to close out of the 16 offices that were in 16 provinces, we closed eight. And we added nine last this year. So nine out of 16 so we are today present operationally in six provinces, plus the seventh is kinshasa the headquarter. And when you look at this, it's not nothing that you find the country blowing up Congo stayed in his border as inherited friends the independence, not nothing was lost. You remember it was a temptation of separatism in in Katanga in many places you are you remember armed group are everyone occupying an area, even the UN to go to a place need to have the authorization from the leader of this armed groups to land. All these things are behind us today. We are facing another other challenges. I'm not saying that everything is over. But still, this is just when you think and I'm not the one saying the Prime Minister of Congo who is now Prime Minister, when I want to see him the first time after his appointment. He told me later when I was a governor of Katanga, out of 422 territories, only 22 were not in conflict. Today we don't have more than 22 in conflict. This is the first success of the mission, and he is the one saying that because effectively when we think about from where we come, we cannot say today that we are starting the mission is not doing anything you went have no added value. We have to have today, even with all the tension that is ongoing. People are speaking as politician. Nobody is threatening to rage a war, or to take or to create an armed group and to go and fight to take power. What we have today in this country, Katumi, Bamba, Kabila, Chesaikedi, Faulu, the big leaders of the opposition and the coalition sitting in the country, living in the country. You are going to arrest someone and the history of Congo, when you lose power, either you are dead, you are in prison, or you are in exile. There is no other option. No other option. Exile, prison, or dead. So having these people that were fighting each other in the election of 2018, here in the country, living in the country, organizing meeting, fighting each other like every politician. That's why we like to keep. And that's what we are trying to tell them, whatsoever be your division, whatsoever be the tension that you can have. You are not enemy. In politics, you could be opponent, you could be a partisan or against, but you are not enemy. I'm not going like in war to finish the enemy. You are my partner or my opponent. And we disagree. We love our country. We disagree on the way we govern it or the way we manage it. But it's not that I would like to kill you or kill me. This is something extremely important to prepare for the stability, to prepare for then moving on development, moving on reconciliation, identifying the root causes, working on how we can address these root causes. What is feeding this conflict that is still ongoing in three or four provinces today? How we can address it? How we can strengthen state authority? How we can push the fight against impunity? How we can build the capacity of the army, of the police, of justice? How we can reconcile community that choose to fight each other? How we can build the access to land and the use of land for people that are fighting? Because one is herders, the other are agriculture, the other are, as we say, for those who are working in the mineral illegally. So all these things you cannot deal with unless you have a minimum of peace, a minimum of stability. And people start thinking about the broader problem and start thinking about what is fueling the conflict. Because when you speak at the first stage with the people, they don't speak about what is fueling the conflict. They just would like to finish the enemy. Go and fight. Moniscoe is not protecting civilians because you are not fighting. But when you start working on this issue, and I would like to emphasize because as you know, the mandate of the mission in this resolution, the F5-02 is focusing on two major issues. One is protection of civilians and second is help stabilization, building capacity. And that's for me the two major also priorities that we have to focus on even in the future because that's how we can build the stability in DRC and how we can move forward. Now, if I speak about, I think you followed what I said to the council, you are aware what we put in the last report of the secretary general with regard to our exit strategy. Because when we speak about exit strategy, when we speak about drawdown, I remember when I arrived to the council, to the Congo in 2008, I was told that after the election of 2006, the mission is preparing for drawdown. And then I arrived and the war started with the CNDP. That was a month after my arrival. So I was like shocked. I thought that I would work on building capacity and I end up building all what become now the due diligence policy, the protection of civilian tools, etc. Because we were stuck in this situation and trying to address it after getting from the council, and then they to support the FRDC and at the same time to fight armed groups. So that's just to explain from where we come and every three, four years the Security Council think about drawdown but the situation don't allow. So what we are, what we did and why when we close the eight offices, it was a decision taken by the mission because we assess that our presence is not needed. What we are trying to do in the next phase to close the, the Kassai for example, why we said that we can close the Kassai because we don't have conflict in the Kassai now. Because the Kamwin and Sapo phenomena is is over after the election of Chesa Keddi. This is the part from where he come from where this opposition came so they and their return to the community. So the challenge that we have there is to ensure the stability and to ensure that the core function of the state are there justice, police, correction and local administration program for agriculture, helping these people to be reintegrated and having a job, reconciling the community that were in the midst of the conflict. So that's the work that we'd like to achieve, not as a mission, the mission providing support, openings in space, having the leverage to build this space for the country team for other partners because the Canadian Union is interested, the American, the British, also the Canadian, so many countries are interested if the situation is stable and if they can advance and there is no risk. So that's why we propose that in next June, we will close these two provinces. Then we will stay in four provinces. That's North Kibu, South Kibu, Ituri and Tanganyika. In our assessment Tanganyika, we can close either by the end of 2021 or mid 2022 if the situation stays stable. Why? Because in Tanganyika, it's really a local conflict. There is no regional dimension, there is no mineral in it, there is no, it's the conflict between the indigenous, the Tua, the pygmy and the Bantu and it's more something that you can address if you help the Tua to have a living. Because what's happened is these people used to live in the bush. It's animals, they were, they were, they were gathered and hunted and the bush is not able now to feed them, so they are coming out. So it's to help them to provide, so it's a work that we'd like to convince not only the government, local government, but also, so that's why we consider that it's feasible. Now with regard to the three provinces, North Kibu, South Kibu, Ituri. That's for me and that's what we said yesterday to the council. It's early to speak about benchmark, it's early to speak about when we will leave because the conflict is still structured in the economy de guerre, in the war economy. It's about, you have the regional dimension, you have the minerals, you have the access and the use of land, you have the ethnicity and then you have the region, I don't know if I mentioned the regional dimension but the regional dimension. All this linked and all this is why it is what fueled this. It's the, the, the, the weakness of the state authority, because in many areas it's very seldom that you find justice, police, military that can ensure law and order and ensure that people when they have a problem they go to the judge, not they take an arm to defend themselves. So that's why it's linked. You cannot address the conflict unless you identify the root causes and you work on them and you address them through sustainable and responsible work that allow for this to be sustained. Of course, this is linked to what we are we started already working on certain issues like for example fighting impunity. You remember that in the past armed group, the National Army were listed for recruitment and use of children. I remember when I arrived the children were among the military in the nobody was hiding them, but we worked with them, and we and this practice, and we have no child that is inside the army today, because we put in place the tools, the mechanism that allow for first of all, an age verification when you have to enter the army, even when you come from groups. Then you have the military justice that can prosecute those who are recruiting children. And then you have the tools that allow to ensure that this is well understood and accepted and nobody will think about bringing children in the army. Because was something that took us some times, but we managed to do it. We are even when we speak about sexual violence. You remember in the past sexual violence. The army was accused of on command responsibility. The commander with his unit that goes and commit rapes against against women or girls or boys. Now, even if you have still cases of sexual violence, it's individual cases, but a military and you have the military justice that we are supporting to prosecute and arrest those who are committing these crimes. And you just to a few days ago, you are aware of checker trial that was involved in the mass rape in Walikali in 2007 and eight. It was the major major rape was in 2010, but still since 2007, they were committing this atrocity. It was sentenced to life imprisonment, and we were involved, and we ensure that fair try principle because that's also the role of the mission. It's not just to take revenge. We, we, we taught and we help people to understand revenge is not the attitude of national institution against your own people. It's you apply the law. We know that the one who committed the worst crime deserve a fair trial, have access to a lawyer, have access to the evidence, and if sentenced sentenced according to the law. And that's also what we do to build this capacity to ensure because that's how you build the stability. If people inside their country start revenge against each other, you have to show that even if you commit the worst crime, you will be handle accountable according to legal framework and and we manage in this process of providing support to the criminal chain and military justice criminal chain to ensure that the lawyer that that if victim, but also that use have access to a lawyer to defend their right. These are and we used American Bar Association avocados on frontier involving them to ensure that this happened. So just to give you an idea about the work that the mission do. It's like teaching and helping things to move forward in the right direction. At the same time, of course, you have always tension, you have something that can happen and blow up paying kinshasa. Now we have this big tension with regard to the political arrangement that exists after the election and the coalition. And what is happening you are following that the president announced the end of the coalition and the counterpart is questioning this decision, and we will continue to work to ensure whatsoever be the problems. You will try to help people to solve them peacefully through dialogue and through the rules and regulation that exists. And of course with the support of their partner of the international communities, Security Council ourselves, etc. So that's what we just to give you a sense of how a mission deployed in a country people sometimes say the mission is here for 20 year what do you do the conflict is still ongoing. And one of scores that have nothing did not realize anything, because people think when they hear about a group where killed civilian are paying a high price, still emergency situation, humanitarian crisis, all this is real, and we are in the midst of a pandemic with a very weak capacity, health capacity, with a very weak institution on the ground. All this we have to keep in mind, but still, we are helping this to not blow up in a major crisis where the country will not be able to address even with the limited capacity, at least to not make the big mistake that creates a major crisis. So that's why a mission. The mission is still here. And in my opinion, why Congo is now even in big tension, because we are in a real transition. Because because we don't have election where the same party change president but still the same party and in many countries still, when you have election, it's a big party in control and make change every 80 or 10 years or whatever. But here you are in the heart of something that Congo have never experienced. You have president estate, 18 years as president and his father was president. And then you are he is transferring the power to someone else and learning how we work in this context, how we can engage in a constructive way with someone with whom I disagree on the way I am handling that is not something easy, because it's not in the culture. It's not something that we used to, we don't have the tools that allow us to to to find to overcome crisis like this. So that's why I think, rather than seeing this as negative, we have to see it as positive and try to help. I always say to the Congolese, I don't want that what happened in 2018 become an accident. I don't want that this just an accident incident and then we forget about it and return to a taking power by a by force or whatever. It's important to build on what happened to ensure that next election will take place on time will be peaceful. We repeated several time, and then we can say stability is now there. So that's the role of the international community supporting this country. That's our responsibility as a mission deployed. And I think it's for us important, not only to support but also to be proactive and to see what could happen and how we can help avoiding something that could be our partner because they don't have all the experience, not seeing it at the time. At the same time, you have to continue to focus on the problem of the country, not just focusing on the political crisis, you have to continue to focus on the political crisis. Of course, on Ebola, we close to three, since my arrival in 2008, we close three Ebola outbreak to in in a quarter, when I arrived in 2000 said in the middle of the election, and then in, in North and then now in in in a quarter. So three outbreak that we manage in this country with very limited capacity to close them. So that's not nothing because you are helping a country to learn how to deal with this kind of situation that will happen in the future, because we have still the root causes that allow for Ebola to to emerge because people eat the meat of the bush, and they get it from animals, and the outbreak restart. So that's that's a reality that we have to keep in mind. We have the pandemic of COVID that we, our first priority was to make sure that the mission will not be a vector of transmission, because if you are a vector of transmission, then you will be blamed, you are the one who bring the virus, and then you will be so focused on yourself, and you forget to do your job. So we were very, we were the first mission to take very, very proactive action to ensure we stop any, any rotation, we stop even out to our civilian that were outside the country we said stay there, until we are ready. To build the isolation and quarantine camps, we work to ensure that we build our medical capacity to not become a burden on the local medical system that is very limited. So we did this and we manage in comparison with other mission we have, we, I think we, we manage when we have total 173 cases, 153 already recovered, six us died, died, and we are working now I think we have five cases that are ongoing. So I think just to give you an idea how mission in such a context can play a positive role by first of all handling difficult situation, second helping the partner how to also learn because it's not to do instead. Always repeat to my people, we are not here to replace, we are here to support, because replacing is not sustainable, you will leave and you leave behind you, the whole, but if you support and let people do what they have to do, then that's your added value is not to end the second issue that we have to keep in mind is to always repeat that we are not stars. We are not here to show how competent and how efficient we are. We have to be very modest, and to keep low profile, and to give the credit to the local, because that will encourage them to do more to help their capacity to improve and to also take our responsibility. We also need to help them to address the regional dimension, because you are in conflict, you are surrounded by many countries, and you have part of your conflict is also linked with other regions so you have to help them how they address these challenges and how they move forward. Just you can stop me when you think I consume my time. Do not hesitate. I wouldn't dream of that, but you're covering such interesting ground and there are so many issues, but perhaps since you've opened up the opportunity, we might go into the broader engagement with the audience. There are so many things that people will want to ask you. Can I just ask for myself one question to begin with? Ireland is obviously looking forward to any way in which it can support the work of Minusco and yourself when we join the council. You mentioned the two priorities which are highlighted in the most recent resolution, namely protection of civilians and building capacity, and I would be confident that Ireland will want to support you specifically on those, but are there other issues that you would like Ireland to keep an eye on as it takes up its responsibility? Thank you very much. I think that, yes, when we speak, as I mentioned, speaking about the two major mandate that we are given by the council, protection of civilians, I am struggling since I start working on peacekeeping in reality. To insist that protection of civilians is not about raging a war. Peacekeeping are not deployed in a country to raise a war. They are deployed to help to shut down the arms and to build the peace. So when we speak about protection of civilians, many people think about our military. Yes, our military are needed. Yes, they have to deliver. Yes, because they are the one who will allow us to access area that will never be able to access without their presence. Yes, they are needed to support the local authority in their operation against armed groups. Many spoiler, national and foreign, that are operating in Congo, but we need to accompany this process by identifying the root causes, by having a holistic approach, and this holistic approach mean justice, mean human rights, mean protecting vulnerable people, mean working on the root causes like how we can ensure control of minerals that is feeding the conflict, how we can ensure that the SSR, the security sector reform is taking seriously place and focusing not only on training, but on building the capacity of the FRDC on the ground, because you cannot be a professional army if you don't have barracks, if you cannot control the arms that you have, if you cannot control your own people and ensure that they receive their salary, they receive that their family are hosted, etc, etc. So these are the work that I see if we contribute to building, for example, the access to land and the use of land ensure that this is not fueling the conflict. The minerals, the professionalization of the army, the DDR process ending disintegration in the National Army of former armed groups recognizing their ranks and files, and allowing them to wear the uniform and stay where they used to prey on the population. So we are managing to get the government on board. We need the support of the partners to make it possible. It's not just to speak about it, because when you say I will not integrate you in the army, forget about it. You will not get it. No amnesty, no ranks, no file, but you know someone who know how to use arms will never beg in the street. Either you fix their problems or you end up fighting them again. So it's important that we have some programmatic activities that allow for these people to be integrated in their community and to not prey on their community by also deploying justice, etc, etc. In my opinion, this kind of program, if they are well done, they don't need a lot of money. It's just to make sure that you have the right people on the ground, that the government contribute by providing the land you are in a country that you have 100 million hectares that are not exploited and that could be. Because you have the water, you have the weather, you have everything, and you can use this as a tool to integrate these people. You can also work on, for example, disinclaving villages through just a small route and you will fix half of the problem. Because people sometimes because they are inflated because they don't have access to anything, then they request arms to try to feed themselves. So these kind of things, if you could within the European Union, within partners that can help to have this kind of support. Also, the European Union is very much involved in the SSR. Security Council is focusing on this yesterday. You hear the Member States speaking about it. So I think these are the kind of things that we can help as partner through country team, through bilateral, through multilateral, and the mission, the presence of the mission, the advantage to have a mission is to have the leverage and to have the access to the highest, at the highest level, speak to the President. It's not that technical level when you have UNDP, you have someone that will work when the space is open. So the mission opens the space, can help to open the space. And then it's easy to implement programs. It's just to ensure that this could happen. The other issue that I think I think the Council can help and you can help is to continue to focus on fighting impunity, protecting women and girls, boys, ending abuse of children by armed groups. All these are also areas of, because if you are in a community and the country is not able to protect your children, your family, then you have no hope. And you will resort to the same way other are doing and then people start gathering themselves by ethnicity, by interest, by this, by that, and then undermining state authority. So I think all this element you can support, but I can see also that the Council, by putting pressure sometimes, or guiding in resolutions, a certain issue when we are confronted to conflict or whatever is, would be helpful. I used, as you know, to engage with member states that are open in the Council to advise, for example, on what we see as a priority. I would advise you in the Council to do so to engage with the people on the ground and to check what would be the first priority that you would like to push at this time, because, in general, it's easy to say things, but sometimes in a very specific context. For example, in this situation of tension, political tension, to make sure that two people understand that whatsoever be the stability, rely on the authority, the opposition, everyone to focus on the problem of the people, to ensure that we don't keep the situation worsening while we are fighting politically. We can fight politically, but at the same time, we address the problems that the people are facing and the Council can help in this. Great, David. Thank you very, very much. A number of questions have come from a retired Brigadier General of the Irish Defence Forces, Jarrah Hearn. The first question from Jarrah is, is the Intervention Brigade achieving its aims in Eastern Congo? I mean, this is a subject of some interest to us. And secondly, what impact are the Islamic ADF group having on peace and security in North Kivu? If you could take those two, they led to begin with, that would be great. With regard to the integrated Brigade, you know, in which context the integrated Brigade came, and since then, there is a lot of things happened in the country. I would like to emphasise here. It's not about the integrated Brigade or about any peacekeeping contingent. It's about, first of all, to have the context that allow for peacekeeping mission, military component of peacekeeping mission to work on what is mandated for. And I think protecting civilian in the area where the integrated Brigade is deployed is the first priority. The context is very complex. You have an armed group that is in this country since 1986. So the ADF were given this place where they are by Mbutu in 1986 after the coup against ADM. So they are connected with the population for this long time. They were doing business. They were working. So it's very, very difficult to just come and by military means you will fix these problems. You need really to ensure that you have on the ground, first of all, the capacity and the intelligence to know about what is going on. You are in this area, you don't have only ADF. You have my, my groups. You have also other spoiler operating in the region. You have the Ebola that played in this area. So for us is to make sure that we have the capacity to understand what is going on and to use all the tools. You are also in a context where sometimes you don't have the good cooperation between FRDC and our own military because it's always complex. You know, when you are working with national forces and you are a foreigner and there is not always trust. There is not always sometimes good relationship because you don't speak the same language. There's a lot of things that play. So it's to build the trust and I think we are improving this because we have changed in the leadership in the FRDC and we are seeing more engagement and cooperation in exchange of information. You know that the Security Council put condition for the mission to engage with and to engage in offensive operation and to engage with a national partner. You have the due diligence policy. You have the joint planning and you have to ensure that you protect international humanitarian, human rights and refugee laws. So it's not easy for us to just go and wage a war. And if I kill women, if I kill children, it's collateral damage. UN cannot afford that. So we have to ensure that everything is done properly, that we are working, having all the information and operation that need to be conducted, making sure that where we are going, you don't have children and family that are with the armed groups and in general it's the case. So all these things need to be assessed and work. Now the other thing is your capacity as FIB or as to ensure that when you are needed and when there is a need for that, you have to deliver. We have the Santa Cruz report that put clearly what is needed to improve the capacity of the FIB and to ensure that they will deliver on what is expected from them. This is discussed now at the Security Council level, at New York level, you know it's not our decisions at New York level, to ensure and I think they come to an arrangement to move forward on the QRF, to not have only people from a certain country but to ensure that the UN have the ability to bring capacity from outside. They are working on this and hopefully will move forward fairly soon. We are also trying to not leave the FIB who are there and we are trying to bring our civilian engaging with the population, engaging with our military, working through justice, through police and having our civil affairs staff, human rights, child protection, gender all involved in to then tell them what is expected from them. Hearing from the population, bringing them to hear from the population what's their concern about what they are doing. Also the most important that we are doing is first to ensure that the battlefield, the area of operation is separated from the area where the people live. Because you know the modus operandi of the of the ADF, to stop the attack against them, they attack civilian. When they attack civilian they don't come to the city and start killing people, they generally go to people that are isolated far away from protection and access. They come with machete, they kill a family and the day after you hear about 12 people killed and you think they raise a whole village. In reality they enter an isolated place and kill 12 people that are living together. That's the reality that nobody from outside understand. So you have to, and that's what we did when we provide for example our own base to the FRDC in Simuliki and we removed our people to ensure they stay there and separate from the area of conflict from Medina and you noted that since then they never come inside the city. But they tried because they were also in very remote area and coming this ends of the process. So what we are doing is really to put pressure on them and to welcome them. Now the second question that you asked me about what I think about the ADF. As I mentioned ADF are here since 1986. The conflict with ADF started in 90 in 2014, as you remember, and it was the FRDC that went to dislodge them from Medina and we end up with this with a major crisis at the time with a lot of civilian killed. And then they stopped the operation and they returned to their place and that's what happened. Then restart in 2017, you remember because of the election and because of everything and some attention that came. And sometimes as we call here literal the fissile that manipulate to, because many people are leaving out of the economic gap and they have interest in this economic gap. That's why the best response is building state authority is strengthening the presence of justice of police of military, but that are held accountable, and that are, of course, under control of the of the government. That's why it's the best option. So for the, for the ADF. Of course, there is a lot of things that we heard about the linkage between ADF and ISIS, we see in some site attributed to ISIS saying that they, they create the will. They are working with the ADF they sometimes even announced when killing to place that they are the one who conduct the operation, etc. For the moment, I cannot say that it's true it's not true because I'm not in the heart of the jungle, but what we are assessing is what we have on the ground. What we have is people operating with machete with sometimes knives or whatever, and okay, that come from either inside or outside the country. All the people that were arrested in all the operation that are conducted, we don't have people coming from this far away area. We don't know. We cannot today say that we have evidence that ISIS is operating in this area. We have evidence, but an armed group, a foreign armed group is operating and using terror tactics against civilian population and committing atrocities in this part of the country. Because this is not very important because the population is paying the very high price because of this terror tactics, and because of the targeting of the civilian population in the middle of the night. I would like to say if you would like if you don't stop going after me, I will continue to kill civilian. So that's not acceptable and we have to do our best to stop this group and to put pressure on them to lay down their arms. We cannot to continue to put military pressure on them, and to continue to use justice and you know that we arrested the government arrested many of even some of their leader, and after what happened, the evasion in the prison. The UNESCO transported them to Kinshasa for to ensure that they will respond for their crimes here and not be maybe released or managed to flee. So we are trying to do our best to ensure that our FIB, our police, our civilian component and the work at national level here in Kinshasa and there to convince to reduce the threat of this group. And of course those who are working to identify if there is any link for the moment, we cannot assume this we don't have evidence, but we don't, we don't exclude anything. We don't say it's not true, we say that at this stage we don't have clear evidence, we continue to consider this group using terror tactic for an armed group preying on the population and it's itself dangerous. We don't need to check if he has other connection. He has enough, enough, he's an enough threat on the people that we have to deal with. So I hope I answer your question. Thank you very much for that. We perhaps have time for maybe two or three final questions. And so the first would be the question of new technologies. Do you think that they have a contribution to make to the protection of civilians? Secondly, impunity, could you say something about the work of the ICC in the DRC and the questioner refers in particular to the UN mapping report on human rights violations of 2010. And finally, do you think there is a likelihood of the political tension in Kinshasa that you've been talking about spilling over to the military situation in the east, especially because individual groups operating in the east have political patrons in Kinshasa. If you're able to manage those as three final topics, we'd be delighted. You've already covered a terrific range of issues, but I handed over to you for those last three points. Thank you very much. First of all, with regard to the intelligence technology that we are trying to use. As I mentioned, when you go to this area, particularly when we speak about the area of India, but not only even if you go to Pinga, if you go to Ituri, if you go to Masisi, to Walikali, this is a forest covered area. So it's very, very difficult to access. It's not something that is open. You are in an area that you don't have roots. And it's a mountain, it's a forest covered area. And the population is totally dispersed in all these areas. So it's not like you have a village to protect this village and you are fine. It's you are protecting the city, but someone will go and kill six people and the day after you did not protect civilian because it's the headlines and you will never prevent it because people because state authorities not deployed everywhere. So you know it's in the middle age people how they leave. They live far from place where they would be attacked. They try to be within their family and very close people that they trust to leave because there is no law and order. So we are in this context. So in this context, having this capacity that allow you to identify, for example, people that are moving in a place that they are not used to be. Who are these people? Are they men? Are they with women, with children? Are they building some place where there is nothing? So that will help you to end to see maybe and to be proactive against threat. When you get an information that there is something in the making in such a place, you will check if it is true or if it is someone who's trying to play a game with you. So you will have this capacity. That's why we use the UIS first that cover now all the North Kibu and Ituri and even part of South Kibu, which is great. And you know, since I arrived, I pushed very hard to build to amplify this capacity because it was just covering 70 kilometers and we pushed to have 510 kilometers. So which allow us to check when we heard about something, when someone is abducted, when someone, we can use this capacity. The second thing is to help the FRDC, to organize their operation, to prepare to know where they are going and if there is a risk for the civilian population, if the people are embedded within community, how we can address this kind of groups because many of the groups are not believing outside of their community. So very difficult also to go after them. The third things that is important for us with regard to these tools is also to identify where we can have an added value. If you identify a group of people isolated, but you can do a route, you can do something, you can engage with someone that is from this area today. So for me, it's very important that you have this capacity at your disposal, your military have this capacity that is not used for us, it's used with the FRDC. It's to help also build their capacity, to help them to prepare for an operation, not go with closed eyes and then so that's for me important. And I hope we'll continue to use this capacity because it's with the consent of the government and it's a tool that is not put within the FIB, it's for the mission to work on this, it's for all of us. The second thing with regard to fighting impunity, of course fighting impunity for me as a judge is the first thing that I would like to do. You know because for me, if you have, if people are committing such heinous crimes, it's because they enjoy impunity. I remember when I arrived in 2008 and I started engaging with the people on the ground and I discussed with some military at the time, if you rape a woman, what will happen to you? Just very candid question like this. And I heard, I will pay a goat, I will be arrested for a few days or nothing. So that's why we decided to change this mindset and to work to help the military justice. I remember when we started saying we will support military justice, many people were against this because they say military justice don't bind by international law. They don't respect the Fair Trial principle and I said we will help them because it's the only tool that can help accountable military. They have jurisdiction on their military, on police and on armed groups. So if we would like to address the impunity in these people, then we have to empower the military justice. And we will ensure that we respect the Fair Trial principle by providing the support and that's how we put in place the joint investigation team between human right and the military police. And then the prosecution support cell that come inside our own expert embedded working with the military to help him do what? To help him ensure that rather than focusing on confession, ending up torturing suspect to focus on gathering evidence. And since we started this process in 2008, we don't have one case that one accused came to the court and said I was tortured. So that's not nothing. That's we are in the middle of a war that in other places they torture to get evidence and we managed to work with the prosecutor that gather evidence without focusing on the confession. This is not nothing. And thousands of people were tried through this process. Colonial generals, leader of armed group, the latest was a checker and and we don't have someone who said I was tortured and I was forced to confess and I deny what I said. That's what happened when we have the second thing is also to showcase to the people that the one who did wrong to you, even general, he's held accountable. That's why we put the mobile court. The mobile court was to allow for the justice to go to the place where the crimes were committed. And to allow for herring the victims and the witnesses. Otherwise, if you do it in another place, maybe you will end up acquitted because the victims and the witnesses cannot all come to the place to testify. And as I mentioned, we managed to have a vocation frontier and about American bar association want to support the victim and want to support accused. And that's, that's how we build the fight against impunity. And it's not something that was created outside and when you close it's over. It's not an international tribunal for a few days and a few years or month and then it's over. It's the justice of the Congo, and it's built in their own capacity. And it's giving the pride to the military judges to be to held accountable the leadership in the arm. I'm not saying that everything is perfect. I'm speaking about the opportunity, the building capacity, the moving because of course when you have the political involvement when you maybe you will have judges that will be subverted that will be but this could happen everywhere. But what we want is to create the capacity and to allow for people to see that they can do it. It's something complex that they cannot afford it. And they can do it. Now our challenge is to ensure sustainability when the mission leave. Our, our challenge is to ensure that a place that we leave where you literally justice is not competent, because it's post conflict is to ensure that this capacity exists also in civilian justice is to have the capacity to solve the conflict on access to land, whatever, through justice, not through arms. So that's how you build the stability through all these tools that you put in place. Now, with regard to the mapping report. As you know the mapping report covered the period 1993, 2003, that's 10 years during the turmoil in Congo. The report was finalized. Of course the report is speaking about what the people told them, and the evidence that they gathered it through interviews. So it's not, you know, it's not an just judiciary investigation. It's gathering information through the people that went through hell at the time, all the people that spoke about killing about abuse about rape about burning villages, etc. In many places. The international community have the appetite to support an international tribunal to address these past crimes. Nobody will be unhappy, even the president yesterday's mentioned that he that he was asked for to create people asking for creating an international tribunal and mixed chamber. But this is of course the willingness of international community to put their weight in this, and to you know how this tribunal function, and what's the budget that is needed and how the competence, etc. Now you have also ICC and Congo and the neighbor, they all ratified ICC. And as you know, ICC is a complementary jurisdiction to the Congolese jurisdiction. So if there is impunity or incapacity of the justice in Congo to address certain crimes of the past of today, then also if there is an agreement to go to the international court and work on that, they can go. Now we have cases that are still pending in the international court. You have Boscon Taganda that was at the time in Goma when I was here, 2008, with the integrated with the CNDP in the army. So you have other cases that were closed in the past. So ICC, when I arrived here in 2008, the prosecutor came here and discussed certain cases and explained that if the government don't address certain cases, of course the court can jump in. We are also working on reparation of victims in Ituri after the the trial of Boscon Taganda of Thomas Lobanga and of others were finalized. So for me, complementarity is something important. Strengthening the capacity of national institution is more durable. And for me, it's the most important for sustainability for building the capacity. Doing both, I have no problem with that. If we can do both, of course we can do both because the amount of crimes and crisis that went to Congo for the last 20 years deserve that justice be rendered and that the victims and the perpetrator will be held accountable. Lastly, you spoke about to ask me about the the tension that is taking place. I don't want to call it crisis at this stage. I hope it will not be crisis. I hope that to stay tension between politicians, and at the end they will find a way out. In that sense, I always repeat that I'm not the one who will say to the Congolese, you have to keep a coalition, you have to go for cohabitation, you have to go for, it's not me. My role is to help them to do the right thing to not miss opportunity for building the peace of the longer term, but it's their decision to decide what they want for their country. And if they are able to achieve it will be all the first to applaud because we are not here to tell them to have to do it this way. It's not my way of doing things, but it's not the right way, even if you someone else would like to do it because it will not work. It will not be sustainable and it will not help. The best way is to help people to take the right decision, give them the opportunity to see the risk to be proactive and to move in the right direction. So, do we think that there is a risk that the situation will affect the East? If it will stay for a long time, yes, of course. If it will stay, the tension will stay just because not necessarily because people will try to manipulate. For sure, because the situation will not, will create, you will have a vacuum without decision coming and people will benefit from this. And of course the spoiler are so many. And as I mentioned, you have for a long time, economic care, people that are praying on the population, etc. So if the government will not very quickly return to focusing on building, taking care of the need of the people, addressing their problems, helping accountable those who may pray on the population, then of course, on the, in French, nature cannot sustain the vacuum. Someone else will jump in the vacuum. Yes. So, so then someone else will jump in the vacuum and you don't know what to do with it within you. So that's why we do our best to continue to support the Congolese authority, the people, speaking to everyone, helping everyone to move forward in the right direction and solve their conflict. I think that you have this kind of tension, as I said, we are in a learning process. All what we want is to not last for a long time. And we find we end up with a solution that is sustainable and allow for these people to focus on the problem of the people until 2023, when the election will decide and to prepare for this election because it's also, you have to wait until 2023, because you have to prepare for the election. You have to ensure that you are ready. And then in 2023, the people will decide, hopefully, in peaceful way with who will lead them for the next time. So that's my answer to your question. Thank you so much. We've gone over time, unfortunately, but you've really managed to give us a fascinating overview of the many challenges that you're facing that when those schools facing, and that we're all facing in the sense in the DRC. Our audience hugely appreciates what you have to say. I'm sorry, there isn't more time available. So we wish you every success as you, well, in relation to the progressive drawdown and also the joint strategy. I'm hugely impressed by the range of challenges which all of that is going to involve. But the best of luck for us. Thank you for the insights and the tips you have given in relation to Ireland's membership of the Security Council, where I'm sure my colleagues will work in every way to support you and your mission. Thank you so much, Laila. And to everybody listening, let me say this is the last of our development measures series for this year, but we look forward to a further series for 2021. So thank you very much indeed. Thank you, Laila.