 Supercop Abba Kiari accuses the indigenous people of Biafra, IPUB, as a cause of his battles. And the Oshun state governorship elections as it draws near, her near, in fighting rocks the APC, as both factions get ready to battle. Well, this is Plus Politics, I am here with you. Police Chief Abba Kiari continues to face tribulations as he is arrested by the police force, barely ours to the announcement that he is wanted by the police. While facing a probe panel led by Joseph Igmonike, a Deputy Inspector General of Police, Kiari claimed that members of the indigenous people of Biafra, IPUB and the Eastern Security Network, ESN, are behind his travails. The same panel has recommended that the demotion of Abba Kiari to the rank of Assistant Commissioner of Police, as it had been found that he was culpable of fraternizing with fraudulent characters, thereby violating the Nigeria Police Force Professional Ethics. Now joining us to discuss and break this down is Adeshino Ogulana, he's a legal practitioner and we're also being joined by Dennis Amakri, he's a former Assistant Director of the Department of State Services, DSS. Thank you so much for joining us, gentlemen. Thank you, Mr. Amakri, for joining us. Thank you. Great. I'm going to start with you because you are a security person. Many have accused the NDLEA, in fact, when the story came out, many people started saying, we saw it on social media, I listened to radio programs. A lot of people said that this was a diversionary tactic as to the fact that the FBI is still asking for an extradition of Abba Kiari to the US so that he could face charges of money laundering and others. Do you believe that this is a tactic, I mean, with all that has developed, so all the stories that have been breaking since the NDLEA came out with this allegation? Do you find any form of hanky-panky happening on the NIST? Well, thank you for having me. I don't believe that the NDLEA invitation is anything to do with any hanky-panky. But I don't trust the police management of what they are doing with that case because let's start from the front case with Hosh Popping. They should have finished that and submitted their report, but that report is still hanging in there. No decision has been taken and it is only when the NDLEA came out openly because they have requested for Abba Kiari before the press conference, then they refused and then when they came out to the press conference, of course they were forced when it's the public domain to release him to the NDLEA. So I think the police authorities might be trying to cover their own. I don't blame them too much because usually it will affect the image of the police when one of their best is being disgraced, so to say, in this kind of situation. You led yourself straight into my next question because I was going to ask that a super cop like Abba Kiari and the position that he actually occupied up until yesterday or early this morning when he was demoted do you not think that the list, if he does begin to sing like a cannery that there might be other people implicated, even high up on the echelon of the police force? Oh, definitely. You know that even when the HUSH4P case came up we never knew that there were other people involved. Although they said that the money was sent to his brother, but they were not named. But when the NDLEA case came up, we know that there were four active members of his team that were involved. And I can tell you one thing. If they take him out, even from the NDLEA interrogation to the FBI interrogation he's going to mention more people. So I think that might be what many people want to avoid by trying to shield him from this national disgrace. Let me come to you, Mr. Sheena. We've seen the development of the story like I was just saying. We've seen a war of war also between the police and the NDLEA and just like Mr. Makri has said, it took that press conference for this story to break open as much as it has now. But then let's talk about jurisdiction here because the NDLEA is calling for the police to allow for him to be arrested, but the police has arrested Abba Kiari. So where did we draw the line of jurisdiction here? If he's been the allegations of him getting involved in drug-related cases should it be the police arresting him or should he be the NDLEA? Help us to understand. Maybe you should have asked the gentleman from the intelligence background because he's a law enforcement agent and just a lawyer and a private citizen. But you see, ordinarily, anyone actually can arrest anybody. NDLEA has the power to arrest. They are specialists in that particular area of crime. The DFC specialists in that particular area are not the immigration specialists, specialized customs specialists, and even the police generally. That's the octopus body. But should the police be a judge in its own case, being that it is the police officer that's been alleged to be involved in this NDLEA issue, which is a jurisdiction for drug-related circumstances? Except behind the news. South is behind it over to the NDLEA. Well, they're still waiting for... I mean, from what we hear, the police has arrested him for this case. He has been handed over. He has been handed over as we speak now. Yes. It's not that he has been handed over. Just like I was saying, even a private person can arrest a person. A committee about to escape justice and hand over to the police. Now, the police, they arrested him and handed him over to the NDLEA, the more appropriate authority, because they are the one in charge of narcotics and all that. So, that one, I think we've left that the issue of jurisdiction. And as it is now, the important thing is to move forward about the conclusion of furthering or deepening of the investigation. Yes. As we speak, the police is also saying that their NDLEA officers that they think were also part of this criminal act, they're asking that those NDLEA officers be also prosecuted. But the NDLEA is saying that that is not the case. So, again, we're in a war of wards. Well, as it is, really, you know, Nangira is just a very interesting country. As the gentleman over there, Mr. Makura, as mentioned, there are sociopsychological reasons for the police wanting to protect their own. Generally, in all these military police situations, that's what it's called, where you want to shield, and it's not only among themselves, doctors do shield themselves, lecturers do shield themselves, it's a normal human thing, not necessarily good or bad. So, as it were, if the police are saying the right thing, it's important that, okay, don't say our boy is the only one that is bad. Our boy, if he's bad, he has a network of people that it's not only in the police, but even your own organization. So, I think it is not too right to knock the police and to ask whether what the accusation or the allegation, whether it is meritorious. So, I wouldn't want to begin to speculate on that. They should furnish facts to back up their claim. Like somebody was saying in the Bible, Paul, for whatever reasons, some people are preaching in Christ, maybe even out of malice, but important thing is that the Christ is preached. So, whether the police is acting maliciously or acting pretentiously, the important thing is that even did it is true that the connect of Abakari Indian daily, they should be exposed. And I think that's fine enough. Let's talk about the judicial process now, because now we have a case. We've seen evidences, we've seen a video that was released, it was trending. One of the major problems that we have in the country is the slow wheel of justice. We've seen even the likes of Evans, the very notorious kidnapper, trying to also crawl out of the doll drums to say, well, he was implicated, he was not necessarily a kidnapper. And that's because, again, justice has stalled for this long. How are we certain that we will see the end of this matter anytime soon? Because Nigerians are also expressing that kind of worry that maybe this process might just be swept under the carpet. Being who he is, being that he is a very highly placed police officer. Yes, it's a national issue. It's a national issue, and the fact is that in this country, it's a country of, it's a jungle. I'd like to say the word jungle. In the jungle, law is not right. What is right is might. And so you're not just only even talking about the offenders. What about the lawyers? I'm talking about people like me, and that's my profession. What about the judges? You understand? Many lawyers, if I may say this, are more or less like mafia guns. Once you can pay their money. You are not supposed to do that as a lawyer. You are supposed to put the ethics of the profession first. But then, your interest as a lawyer must be to the court, the dignity of the court and the profession. But many of the times people are swayed by money. These are people they call successful lawyers. These are the big time lawyers. So they help criminals to shield them away from the due process of law. I'm talking about the bar. I'm here to get to the judge. It's the truth. I'm talking from experience. I'm more than a quarter of a century in this profession. In fact, the elite in this country is the problem of this country. And the elite includes the high-class professionals like lawyers, engineers and all those people that do approvals for wrong construct. They are the elite. They are professionals. Including the bar, the bar, the bar, the bar itself. The bar, the bar, the bar. It's part of the problem of a lawyer, but I know what I'm talking about is the truth of the election, even the electionary elections. Have you manufactured evidence and do the wrong thing? And just not just any other lawyer, senior lawyers. And we are talking also of the bench itself. You understand? Of course, they are very fine judges, even the lowest level magistrate and all that. But then there are bad acts. This is the truth. The corruption that we're talking about is not limited to law enforcement against and everybody. People have challenges. The next thing they do, they begin to pick calls, put calls to judges. How many of the judges are properly appointed if they are appointed by what we call pre-bendalists, by politicians, by connect, so when they have issues, they now call you and say this person is a person. Sometimes they are, oh, social supression has interest in this case. And then you find a judge may not have the spine to stand up to the truth. So that issue about consents has this case to, people already gone beyond skepticism in the country to cynicism. All this one story, it will die down. Later now, we hear that either to use the Nigerian language, they've dambarued the case or they died the case or that there is a war on the war law that is adjourned today, but it's going tomorrow to wear down everybody. And so the concern of the masses of our people are real. And in fact, the cynicism is so much that people are even saying that even this NDNA needs to reserve. Even despite the something played and all that's, ah, that man looks fatter than Abaki, are you? Are you sure it's not a clone? Are you sure it's not a scheme to escape a tradition to the U.S. so as to show the level and people who are dismissing this kind of claim so easily and are using logic are missing the point. Nigeria is a strange country. There's very strange things do happen. When the Basantia was president, people should know that they said there was somebody who by himself created in Nassau Rock a fake bomb disposal unit. In this Lagos, about 50 years ago, there's an entire fake police station. An entire fake police station. So when you look at all these things, we really need to do a lot of searching within ourselves. When people begin to deliver people like Abakiari, the truth is that it's only the person that is caught that is the thief. Because before now, he's supposed to be a super cop, wonderful cop, the best or the very best. They even gave him not only an award, he's turned the ovation only to find out that at least so far, because we are yet to hear his own side of the story fully now. I don't want to comment, but it's already dented. Let me come back to you, Mr. Makri. Interesting perspective from Mr. Gulana here. But let's talk about the head of the NDLEA because he's also made a very interesting point about the way that Nigerians feel and the fact that we have already resigned to fate because of where we're coming from. Anticidences and all of the things that we have been exposed to. But let's look at the person of Buber Marwa. He has been a former military administrator. He's held many offices. He ran an airline even though that airline shut down. But do you think that he as a person would let this matter just go the way it goes normally here in the country? Let's take a look at his personality. Okay, thank you very much. You know, Buber Marwa himself when he was military administrator, I worked with him as assistant director of the essence in Lagos. And I know him very well. And when he took over the NDLEA, it was very, very clear. The NDLEA was going down the drain. There were a lot of people that were into all kinds of things. And of course, when he came there, he told them that this is the time to work now. If you don't work, he'll show you the way out. If you work, he'll promote you and that's what he did. So right now, since he came, there are many wins for the NDLEA where they've gone through more efficient operations, prosecuting, and then of course, doing all these things. You can remember that this particular case, when it happened, instead of doing the business with Cary, they went back to their office to report. And then of course, it got to him and he said, go ahead. So that tells you the integrity or image of that man that is in the NDLEA at this time. So I think I don't have any problem with that. Let me ask a question that everybody else may be asking in their mind. There's a conspiracy theory or a theory that people are putting together, saying that Abakiri is the fall guy for something that is pretty bigger than what we actually are seeing. Let me say the very famous quotes. There's more to it than meets the eye and that he's being a fall guy, but that this is just a cover up for something else. We're not talking about the FBI incidents. We're looking at a bigger drug or syndicacy in this country. Let's not forget that as we speak, Nigeria is dealing with a serious drug issue. We have a drug crisis. Our young people are given to this drug thing. We're seeing a lot of them as young as 15-13. They're all given to the life of drugs. Could this be a way to bring down this drug syndicacy in Nigeria? Do you even buy into this narrative in the first instance? I don't believe in conspiracy theories because they are just speculation from people. People can speculate all the words. And of course, in Nigeria, anything you do, they will start to read millions into it. In fact, I was very happy that this thing operation that nailed Abakiri in that video, two people were speaking Hausa. If they were speaking Igbo, and they would say, oh no, that's a setup. Those are Igbo or Yoruba. That's a setup, but those two were speaking a common language to two of them. So, I don't believe in conspiracy theories. Investigations will bring out everything that we need to know. And the earlier they do, they finish up their investigation and take it to the court. Because it's in the court that we're really here. All what we're hearing now are just peripheral. In the court, that's where all the story, the real story, will come out. Finally, let's look at his claim, and I'm going to ask the same question to Mr. Golanah here. Abakiri has told, you know, he was reportedly claiming that iPop is responsible, that iPop and the ESN are responsible for his walls. And I'm asking, what is the relationship between the ESN and what they're pushing for with what Abakiri is going through now, whether it be the Hush Poppy situation or this drug-related case? What does the ESN have to do with it? I don't think that is the real fact. I think it's gravid at straws when you come to saying things like that, because what has iPop got to do with him? Or is he one of the people that has been on the back of iPop and they feel that it's time to deal with him? Well, it still remains that if he's clean, even if iPop is trying to get back at him, he will be out of it free. But if he's not clean, then that's the weakest link in him that they have used to nail him down. But I really don't think, I still don't believe in conspiracy theories. Okay, Mr. Ghulana, now I'm just going to quote exactly what Abakiri said. He did say that members of the Indigenous people of Biafra and the Eastern Security Network are behind his travails. He made this claim when he actually appeared in the pro-panel led by the Deputy Inspector General of Police Joseph Ibn Niki at the four-side quarters in Abuja. And this report was published by Daily Trust, so it's not a hearsay. And I'm really wondering, because he said that the outlawed iPop and its armed wing were after him during the onslaught launched against them in the South-East, and he's thinking that this is them getting back at him. Well, thank you. First, I can only react as a lawyer that I am. Even though this story has been published by Daily Trust, which is fairly respected, I know that I will still, since I didn't hear directly from Abakiri, I will not want to make much of that, but assuming that he says so. Let me deal with that, hypothetically assuming that he says so, well, let's back it up with facts. You say that you failed your exams because your deriver of your mother was the one who has affected you. It's not enough to say it, tell us. Whether it was that your mother's driver who said you should not read your books or that when you go to the exam, when you are sleeping, it was the activity. You know, remember this funny story, in the story of the Olympian boxer, when he met with Joe Lassisi, he was by far more famous and all that. I'm talking about maybe 25 years ago, he lost Joe Lassisi beating and then Joe Lassisi said that when he got to the ring, I think in this national stadium, in fact, he started seeing seven Joe Lassisi. He says later many years, when he became a Christian or something born again, I said, true, you have to save his face that probably it was the blue that made him to shake his brain and reset his brain and all that. So if this gentleman now said that he's an iPod, it's like the expert, the intelligence fellow said he must be clutching at stress because it's not related. Is it that they are the one who now you push into the car? When you are counting the money, it was the iPod that supplied you the money. It was iPod, the mules were iPod people who set you up and indeed, how do you, like I used to say among the Yahu people, if you are not greedy, you cannot be hooked. Well, finally, gentlemen, before I let you go, when Nigerians have their fingers crossed, we're all expecting to see the last of this and it's not our place to pre-empt the courts but what would be your positive message to those of us who are, let me not include myself because I'm just an observer but the Nigerians who have lost hope, like you said, that of justice and hope and not just the judiciary but, of course, the processes in this country. What's the hope that they should hold on to? It's our country. It's our country. Rarely we may stop, up down and all that. If you lose hope, you're gone. There are a lot of things to be hopeless about but I will know our daughters. There's no life that matters but the courage that you bring into it. So this country, like you said, whether somebody is blind, whether you like Boa Mariwa or you don't like him, the truth is that when you are taken over now, we're seeing an improved NGLA. It was like the late Mrs. the NAVDAC woman. When she's two-star, there is a flash in the pan but after she's gone, we didn't hear NAVDAC again like that. So there are still good people. Before even this career, it is fair busting this crime, busting that crime. Although anybody with any fear sense of introspection, wonder there's something wrong with this cop. To publicity he would go and do an operation, he would put it on paper, put it on social media, he would take pictures, he would be wondering what kind of cop is this but the truth of the matter is this. You can't afford to drown in hopelessness. In fact, for people like us, you just have to fight and regain and reclaim your country. You can't, you can't, you can't just give up and so as for this gentleman is by all showing interest in the matter that you even make all the actors to sit up the lawyers, as I'm saying this that's my consistency, you want to take up the matter, you know how we have been trained. You don't suppress facts in the name of, I'm defending my clients, you guess, you giving the very best of defense within the law. And therefore the judge is handling this matter, you don't compromise and for the prosecutor, you know many of the times prosecutors if I can use that in general language so people start blaming the judges but if very poor evidence, uncoordinated evidence is brought before a judge what else can this so all this, but when we the owners of Nigeria, the people of Nigeria, at least the informed one when we have cases like this and we continue to hold about it, we want justice to be done not the one who is beginning to say Abba Kiari is a Christian, Abba Kiari is from Boronu, so what people are being oppressed this is a wrong attitude. Okay, final words Mr. Macri. Yeah, well I think this particular case underlines the need for us to restructure the security agencies you know, there is very very strong need right now to look in the police into the police because we keep on talking about it and then allowing that structure to go on and the processes you know, there are two things to look at there in the police now the structure I don't want to dismantle it and call for state police you know, local government sheriffs or whatever so that the police is nearer to the people where crime happens or we want to continue maintaining the unitary system that is going on or then the processes their procedures how the police carries out its investigations how they how you know how do you train them how do we eliminate corruption even in the police these are things that should be this is the time for us to sit back and look at it because if we don't we'll keep on hearing more stories and more stories about this sad stories. Well I want to say thank you to Adesino Ogulana he is a legal practitioner, Dennis Macri former assistant director of the department of state services thank you so much gentlemen for being here we appreciate it. Thank you well thank you all for staying with us we'll take a short break now and when we return we discuss the upcoming Oshoom State humanitarian elections and the infighting issues within the APC. Stay with us