 We're back in the afternoon of a given Monday. I'm Jay Fiedel. This is Think Tech. More specifically, this is transitional justice, where we transition in time and space to find justice to make justice anywhere in the world through the help of the Project Expedite Justice, which operates out of Kona. It's led by Cynthia Tai there. We have today somebody in Kampala, Uganda, who joins us by Zoom from Kampala, Uganda, which is a statement of the quality of broadband in Kampala. Fabulous. Gilbert, thank you so much for joining us today, Gilbert. You're welcome, Jay. Glad to be here. You're an economist. That's very important. My college education was also in economics, so I know and appreciate a little about it. Tell us about your training that you took to be an economist and where you took that and what your view of the importance of economics is in today's global society. Thank you so much, Jay. I think going through college and studying economics and doing the internships that I did, I was fortunate to do my internship at the Bank of Uganda, which is at the helm of macroeconomic policy and getting things running across the country. I just realized I was removed from the microeconomic issues that affect people's lives. For me, the economics piece drew me to critically think about what causes a community to actually grow. What are the factors that, how a community is getting out of fragility and conflict? For example, in Northern Uganda, in Western Uganda, in Tasese, and then in the East, how are those communities picking up? How are they able to build up and what are the issues that they are dealing with? The economics piece built that critical lens in order to look at what are the things that have to be input to come from to fit into how people collectively grow, back up and build back up. I have so many questions for you. But before I ask them, I just want to ask you about something that happened to me in summer camp in the 50s. There was a song we sang. I only remember a little of it, but I want to sing it for you, and ask you whether it has any resonance for you at all. Pardon my lack of voice. It goes this way. Kenya, Uganda, and Tanganyika, Sisi, Azad, Deonar. Kenya, Uganda, and Tanganyika, that would be. Kenya, Uganda, and Tanzania. I don't understand the last word. But I think it does sound like one of all the songs calling towards independence of the three countries in the African community, which I think that the 50s and 60s were interesting times at that time, and there had been a global drama up, as well as a national drama up towards independence and we're preparing to take on the realms of leadership in our countries. I think there were quite interesting times for sure. They're very different now. How are they different? Well, for starters, it's different in Tanzania, in Kenya, and in Uganda. We've had several leadership cycles, but in Uganda, you are aware that we've now had the same president for the last 35 years. He's been president ever since I was born. I have never seen another president. That would follow EDM in? No, that was following Oboti 2 who had been outstead and we had Paul Muangat, Tito O'Kello, and those are the ones that were outstead in 86 to usher in the new leadership and bring about fundamental change. That's as we called it back then. Has it worked? I think for me, the question there is that working, I have very many reservations as to whether it's working. Those 35 years down the road, it took my dad three days to travel 500 kilometers across the country in 1989. In 2017, when I was traveling up to Karamoja, it took me 24 hours to do the same. If you count the amount of time that it has taken to have a development, fortunately now it will take me about seven hours to travel. The same distance my dad was trying to travel in the western part of the country. But if it takes me 24 hours to travel from Kampala to Moroto, I think then there is a problem. There is a structure problem. There are inequalities that haven't been dealt with. You're looking at areas such as northeastern Uganda, which have been left off. The moment they get a highway, it is peddled as politically. It becomes a political pendulum and the highway doesn't last, but people are excited to. But it has come in a little bit too late. That's my thinking. Does one have to be privileged to go college in Uganda? Does one have to have special connections or is it egalitarian? That's a very interesting question. Looking at my own education, both my parents are teachers. My dad just retired but secondary and primary. So what that meant was that there was a certain amount of education that we had to undertake as children. Education was looked at as the only way to be lifted out of poverty, out of being able to be gainfully employed. So it is something that culturally, excuse me, culturally and something that was picked up throughout the 80s and 90s. Parents were selling everything that they had to be able to send their children to school. Now granted that not every household could afford to send their child to school. And the government came in with a university primary education and later on an attempt at a university secondary education. But all those had their failings in terms of staffing again in terms of having the proper laboratory equipment. So I think that would, I sort of count myself lucky to have been able to go to some government schools, government schools which are established but you pay sort of a subsidized rate to be able to go to school. And of course without one level you can't get to the next level. And if you're not able to perform well enough you don't get to a good tertiary institution or something like that. Why did you study economics? I think for me I was looking for the critical lens at which to look at life but also the critical lens at which to respond to some of the issues that I was seeing in my community because growing up we had an interesting blend of people in the neighborhood. And we did have some refugees who came through from Rwanda during the genocide and they were saying in Nbarra which is my home town. And that near Kampala? That is about I think 400, 500 kilometers from Kampala. It's a rural area. It is, I would say it has been newly, it is a new city. So it's with funding from the World Bank we had all the roads, termites and all the bikes and everything up. So in terms of, it's an urban center, one of the key urban centers in Western Uganda which is, yeah. But that was not the case until about five or so years ago. I have a question for Alexa. Alexa, what is the population of Uganda? Sometimes she takes a while to think about it. Alexa, what is the population of Uganda? In 2020, the population of Uganda was 45.7 million people. Is she right Gilbert? Yeah, 45, they are about, yeah. That's correct. Sometimes I refer to my crystal ball over here, Alexa. So why did you join Project Expedite Justice? Did you reach out to them? Did they reach out to you? What's the connection? So I had done some work with Cynthia and a bit of trainings and we had worked together and I got a very clear and crisp understanding of their approach towards justice. And I think I was intrigued by, in particular case that was brought up against the BNP Paribas which is, I think, a French bank and looking closely at how they had, as a banker for the government in Sudan they had sort of, you know, a few world conflict. And of course we do know that for me as an economist it's very clear that money does kind of a few world or kind of where the money flows is where you kind of see conflict happening. And it's also a great tool in kind of leading that way and not leading the way, but in kind of preparing the ground to heal social fabric. So yeah, I think those are some of the things that drew me on, but the unique approach of litigation that looked at where the money was flowing and kind of went with that to make sure that people that were not able to have their lives, that had their lives taken away from them could have them back. And we all know that in conflict there's a lot of economic looting, so to speak, in South Sudan, you're having trees that are 100 years old and are worth millions in Malaysia and Uganda being cut down. And if you follow that trail, you see the funding that is kind of, you know, making the conflict happen. And I think for me that that was a very interesting angle that was looking at things that were being taken away from community, but also connecting it to justice and what that could, that ship that could take. What projects have you worked on with Project Expedited Justice? I guess they have not all been limited to Uganda. They were in other countries, other situations. Yes, yes. We have done a bit of work together with Cynthia on training on documentation for some, for documenters in Uganda, in Lamor, which receives refugees from South Sudan. And what this training on documentation does is basically how are we picking up on the experiences that are presented by people fleeing conflict, the experiences of war and what patterns are coming out. You know, and if these people are coming from a particular area, are the things that they saw similar and if the things that they saw are similar, what does that mean? How do you sort of begin mapping up and chatting, sort of what can I say, you have like a tapestry of understanding a particular experience and then tailoring your intervention or informing litigation, so to speak, and also to be able to know how to intervene, because from that engagement, from that listening, you're able to respond to the primary needs that the people have, for example, they could have injuries that need them to get to hospital as soon as possible. And we did this work as well with the refugee law project. You know, in terms of refugees and disadvantaged people, in terms of countries that are in strife, countries that are in violence, countries that are still seeking to find a reasonable relationship with government, how is Africa doing? It strikes me that you're not alone. It strikes me there are many Gilbert Nuregir is around Africa. You probably talk to them and there's a generation involving you that is actively working to try to improve various countries in Africa, some doing better than others. What is your thought about the continent right now and your generation and how is it affecting the continent? I think if I could extrapolate it and take it to a global level, I think we are in a time of recording, a great recording. I mean, I was just following what was happening in Senegal the other day and the youth are stepping up and using all this campaign and we remember what happened in Nigeria and the end size protests. So I think, and what happened in Uganda last year, we are in a time of recording and very many people in Africa are ready to stand up to injustice and we know that the costs for that can be high. But I think it is also revealing of very many things that were hushed over in the first place and systems were built up and low and behold, we now have structure inequalities that are perpetrating marginalization and people can't have any of that anymore. So I think that is something that is kind of sweeping up the continent but also there is a fire that people are trying to take ownership of their future, trying to take ownership of their communities and make them work for them. And I think that is an interesting time for the continent but it is also even more so an interesting time for the world I think. I appreciate it. So are things different in sub-Saharan Africa as in the northern part of Africa? I think, so we do have the northern part of Africa, the countries that immediately come into mind for me, I think of Sudan and then Libya and then Tunisia and Algeria, they kind of had parts of the Arab Spring and Sudan is still kind of rising up from that. I think they are in an incredible moment where they can, if they can afford to do it, they can and I think they should sit down and ask themselves what happened, who was wrong and how can we now work together to build up our countries? I think it's a place that the countries in sub-Saharan Africa are at and what that means for me is and what it means for transitional justice is that we need to listen to the lived experiences of everyone to acknowledge those experiences. So it means that the truth needs to be told in however ugly it is for us to be able to move forward and we need to use that to inform how we now reshape and reform our policies, our frameworks, our laws that govern us and I think that's the time that sub-Saharan Africa is in and I think if you could mirror that with the, I think it's also a moment that is happening in the US with the Black Lives Matter and it's also a moment of recording and kind of say, okay, the whole, I can't breathe moment and so what has been happening? What has the police been doing wrong? What have we done wrong? What can we do better? How do we reform, reshape our policies? Can we create a space where we meet each other and understand what we can do to kind of make living in these communities better for everyone? Can we do that? How can we do that? I think it requires a tremendous intentional effort but it also demands that we set aside our biases in the first place and get to the table and shove our biases in the back and be prepared to listen. And I think that is something that is quite expensive of late because we are becoming more and more polarized because we realize how different we are but we just have one blue dot that we can be on. So we need to be intentional about, getting into the spaces and listening to one another but also being intentional, okay, where do we find our middle ground? What needs to change? What can change structurally in terms of policy? What can change structurally in terms of the legal framework? Can we acknowledge that this happened and this is what it did to particular communities? And then I think that is a starting point to move forward and I think that for me, that is where you have sustainable engagement and sustainable justice at the end of the day because people are saying, this is what happened to me. This is how I felt. This is what I think needs to change. And we need to shape it together and so that we can prevent this from happening again and being aware of that and constantly working towards it is I think it's something that will enable us kind of build back up stronger and in a sustainable way if I may use the term. Yeah, wow. That's more than economics, isn't it? You're talking about economics, you're talking about politics, you're talking about the social structure of a given place, country, continent. How do you see the relationship between economics and repairing, rebuilding, improving, a given country, a given social structure, a given government? I think when I look at economics, I look at it as one of those things that gave me the tools or sort of speak was an open door but to also realize that in any given environment we have a host of factors that are at play and they go beyond just the question of demand and supply and even the question of demand and supply has a host of other questions behind it that you know that you have to be aware of particularly if you are looking at areas within suffering from fragility and conflict and you have to look at those dynamics because then they fit into how a place grows and they fit into the quality of life that people in a particular area enjoy. So for me, I would look at economics as that clean window that allows me to see all these things and to connect the pieces but also to sort of inspire me to kind of look carefully at the people that we are working for or we are part of and how can we work with them in ways that allow us to build each other up? You know, we talk about engagement, you talk about engagement, okay? And it seems to be central in the process you're describing working in the pursuit of justice and the pursuit of a better community and a better life. So what is engagement, Gilbert? And how do you see engagement? What does it mean and how does it play in these dynamics? I think for me, engagement is about a word that sort of bundles up a series of activities or things that we need to be doing quite intentionally but with great care, an example, so to speak. If I arrive in a community or I have lived in a community, do I know that the issues that my neighbor is facing? Do I see the issues that we are facing as a community when to use a more American example when we go for the town halls? Am I listening to what is happening around me? Am I participating? So for me, engagement has participation and has listening, it has, and all these have to be intentional in many respects. It has seeing, it has being present in a particular place and it is by doing that that you are then able to work with not just work solo but work with others around the issue to kind of work towards sustainability or work towards a justice that gives everyone a better quality of life. You also mentioned and it touched me the word truth because in the United States, we've had some serious issues with truth over this past Trump administration and going forward for that matter. And I wonder where truth plays in all this. How essential is truth to engagement and to the repair quality of damaged communities, damaged countries and the rebuilding, including the economic and social rebuilding in those countries, where does truth fit? Yeah, thank you so much for that, Jay. I think truth is a critical tenant of transition justice, truth telling and a memorization. And one of the things that we quite often ask ourselves is whose truth is it? And when the government tells the truth and when the people tell their truth and it's collective and they're speaking at a memory prayer or having a memory dialogue and someone says this and this happened to me, it is my truth, this is what I saw with my eyes, this is what happened to me and okay. And I think coming into the conversation of truth is a very delicate one, but it is also a critical one in terms of curating sustainable justice and curating engagement that feeds and helps repair the fabric of society. So coming into that, we have to be aware that my truth might be different from your truth and they both deserve to be heard. I think a good example of what happened, of how truth was critical. And I think it is still playing out in Rwanda with the Gacaca courts and truth telling and in South Africa with the truth commissions. Of course, the details of these engagements and activities were very good. They were very, you know, they were very, the word is vivid and they brought back so many memories and flashbacks. So I think, but it was worth it because people they knew, someone could say, I know. But then does that mean that we do not hold our governments to the highest standard? I think from that community engagement and engagement at levels that allow us to kind of be able to speak a truth and a truth that is recognized, I think, and I think this might be a gumbo, but I could bet that that will then, you know, fiddle up to the government to be able to be responsible enough to tell the truth, you know? Because I think that is one of the things that stars up justice, you know? Well, you know, we've had people in this country in the Trump administration that endorsed the notion of alternative facts. The facts is not necessarily the truth and truth, not necessarily the facts. I mean, the fact seems to me bedrock, you know, central knowledge of reality. But there are people in the United States that are proud to create an alternative reality, alternative facts. And I guess my question to you is, can you have a democracy? Can you have a respectful society if you can't agree on basic facts, on basic reality? Yeah, I think that's a tough one, I mean, because I mean, truth is one of the things that one of the tenants of democracy, so to speak, and the tenants of justice and our judicial system is kind of, our judicial systems are built up to kind of look out for whole people accountable best of truth and facts and not, so for me is, the question would be then how, what standards are we holding each other to? You know, do we hold ourselves to standards that allow us to sort of fiddle with the truth and have people saying, oh, this is what I did, but this is actually what I was thinking. But this is actually what I did. I mean, I think for me that is where the problem is, if there is camera evidence or video evidence that is saying this is actually, these were your actions, but the alternative truth, you did it for this reason, but in doing that, you were violating rights, you were violating communal and community spaces. I think we need to step back and think about what are our standards. And more than ever, so when we are in an age that you can, you know, fact check, you can do fact checking, you can, you know, you can Google up something in seconds and know that this and this is happening and this, what do we do in those times? And I think it's the onus is upon, not just the leaders themselves, but us, the people to be intention about, you know, seeking the truth, so to speak, you know, and I know that can be complex in so many ways and that can also be uncomfortable and that can also mean actually, even in an age of Google and Twitter and all the social media, it might also mean to actually walk out and talk to your neighbor and I know that in a polarized world, that can be a bit difficult, but we have to take the steps and say, hey, this is what I had, what do you think? And we begin to deconstruct each other's truth and we walk out what is alternative truth and what is actually truth. And we begin to build up, rebuild a standard of truth to hold each other against, you know? And that's my thing. Gilbert, do you express these views in public? Are you on the media or otherwise? Do you speak to share your views with groups? Do you express leadership principles to people in order to have them accept what you're saying? I do have great conversations with my friends working in government and that is always, you know, that is always a joy and kind of looking at things from different perspective. I, someone working in the NGO sector and research sector, but from people who are engaging in government. So it is always helpful to deconstruct things. I am not sure about our, I do not necessarily express most of my views on social media or on Facebook because I have also realized in terms of the kind of engagement that you could easily get and disagreeing. And, you know, it does not necessarily happen. And we also have, there's a bit of surveillance. So I am careful in terms of those engagement. And I like to having this conversation in passing over a cup of tea or coffee usually does makes a whole big difference because it personalizes the issues, you know? It's a bit, I think it's a bit old school, but I think for me it's coming to the table. It's powerful in many ways, yeah. Yeah, well, there's nothing like a cup of coffee or tea. I know, yeah, yeah, yeah. So Gilbert, I would like to see this going forward through your eyes. I would like, therefore I would like to know what you see for yourself as an economist and a thought leader, income problem in Africa. Where does your career take you? Do you have aspirations and what are they? My aspirations at the moment and my trajectory, I have an inkling towards the public policy and legal frameworks that hold people accountable but also help repair and rebuild our society. So I have a learning to those areas that I am seeing myself in advisory roles and working at that in those areas. And one of the things that is happening right now in the African context, we're sort of trying to have an East African community. So what is happening? We're having migration, economic migration happening and we have Somalia has been to join the East African community. Democratic Republic of Congo has been to join the East African community. So quite soon it is going to be a big block and more than ever we need the legal frameworks to make things work, but we will also need spaces to be able to listen to truth. Because trust me, when Ugandan traders go to Democratic Republic of Congo, they will be reminded that you stole our timber and we need to have a space to sit down and talk about that. And when Somali traders come to Uganda and Ugandan traders go to Somalia, that means there will be a conversation about the terrorist attacks perpetrated by the Al-Shabaab in Uganda. So we need to be able, I want to be part of curating those spaces that will allow us to have those conversations that kind of allow us build up as a block in East Africa. Yeah, so that is where I am at, yeah. Gilbert, it's such a pleasure to join and honor to talk with you to meet you. I hope we can meet again. It's a very, very, so very interesting to see things through your eyes, even if only for a few minutes. Gilbert Nugira in Kampala, Uganda, thank you so much for joining us today. Thank you, Jim. Thank you, Tink Tak, for having me. Aloha.