 Hi everyone. I'm Ed Baker. Welcome to the Addiction Recovery Channel. I can't even tell you how excited I am today to be with this distinguished panel of guests, mighty warriors, trailblazers of recovery in Vermont. For people familiar with the show, you know that we've always been devoted to reducing and eventually eliminating the stigma that's wrongfully attached to people with substance use disorder. And the way we do this is by raising consciousness. Today, the show is very special indeed because as we raise consciousness, we're also going to be raising funds for two of the three keystone components of this recovery movement that we are building in Vermont. The two components being recovery housing and recovery centers. My distinguished guests are Ron Stankovich, Community Outreach Director for Dominion Diagnostics. Thank you Ron for your dedication over the years. I'm Ron Spinshade, President of Recovery Vermont. Part of everything recovery. Thank you, Peter, for your service. David Regal, the Executive Director of Vermont Foundation of Recovery, really, really setting the standard for sober housing in Vermont and elsewhere. Thank you, David. And Tracy Hauck, who is the Director of the Rutland Turning Point, one of a system of 12 turning point centers in Vermont that are out there. They're the heartbeat of recovery in Vermont. Thank you so much, Tracy, for your work. With that, I'm going to begin the show by handing it over to Ron, with his very, very special announcement. Thanks, Ed. I will hopefully not take very long here because I really want the focus to be on our recovery centers, our recovery homes and the very, very important role that Recovery Vermont is taking in this recovery challenge. And a couple of heartbeats that the challenge is designed to challenge perception. By addressing the stigma of substance use disorder, in which we showcase and promote and celebrate the fact that Vermonters can and do recover all the time. And it's about celebrating the support that is given to Vermonters in recovery, in particularly our 12 recovery centers, which have a vast array of programming to meet someone in recovery where they're at so that their goal of a lifelong journey of recovery is realized. And in concert with that, it's about providing a safe and supportive environment that our recovery homes do it. And what's, what many may not realize is how intertwined our centers and our homes are. That V, in particularly for homes in high quality neighborhoods that are close to recovery centers. So it's almost a 24 seven approach of arms being wrapped around a person in recovery. So, aside from addressing the stigma, showcasing that with support individuals can and do recover. It's about celebrating what our centers and our homes do. And also to provide the opportunity to recognize that our centers and our homes, their nonprofits, and that hopefully during recovery for month and our theme is recovery and the community side by side. Our homes and our centers support individuals in recovery. Now it's time for us as Vermonters to support those homes and those centers period. Now I would be really remiss if I didn't give a lot of credit here to Peter Espin shade and recovery Vermont. When we first floated the idea of a challenge. He said look recovery Vermont shouldn't be part of this in terms of monies received but he wanted to play an active role. So recovery Vermont is serving as the fiscal agent, which simply means they will receive all donations, pay every related fee under the sun, such as cash apps and credit cards. So that 100%. And I'm going to say this again because you rarely if ever find fundraising public awareness campaign, or 100% of monies raised will go to one of the centers, or one of the homes. So that's why these three are here, because they do the direct service work dominion my role was really providing backbone support and bringing the group together with the conscious effort of we need to celebrate recovery. We need to promote what recovery organizations do, and also showcase that your generosity can and will make a huge difference in the lives of those in recovery that they support. I think that's enough for me. Wonderful and thank you. Thank you run just to mention that during the show, there will be a banner distributed or exhibited down the bottom of the screen that'll tell you what the site is for for donating and at the end of the show. There'll be a lingering screen that will also show the link that people can donate to. So along those lines. So at the beginning of the show if every Vermonter gives $1 will have $560,000. So, so don't be, don't be shy with your, with your donations. With that I'm going to hand it over to your husband shape Peter would you begin maybe talk a little bit about recovery housing and what what you've seen over the years what it means to you. Yeah, I mean just to take a step back one of the things that I'm really excited about with the recovery movement is how we're defining the term recovery itself. So back in the day it used to be recovery was defined as abstinence or sobriety, and you know that's obviously part of the picture, but it's not the whole picture at all. And it's not really the way recovery works. We're now operating kind of under Johann Hari's theory that the opposite of addiction is connection. That's what makes recovery strong, you know, a connection to a place to live reconnection to family connection to employment connection to one's community and hobbies we know that that's what really defines recovery. And one of the real innovative movements in Vermont and nationwide is what we call the recovery residence movement. If you don't have a safe, clean supportive happy home, your recovery is going to be so much harder. In Vermont we've got a whole series old network of certified recovery residences, these are places that meet the best national standards, and that serve as homes for folks who are working really hard on their recovery and working really hard in their communities to give back to be good citizens to be employed to be good neighbors etc. And I think we need to keep bolstering that, and we need to keep growing that movement, and it is so well personified by my friend and colleague Dave Regal, and his work at V for and sort of the work throughout the state. Thank you. Thank you Peter to just underscore that the American Society of Addiction Medicine in 2019 when they were commenting on their new definition of addiction made a point to stress that people who were denied access to adequate housing, who were at risk for addiction would be more at risk to develop addiction because of housing frustrations, and people who were striving toward recovery would be in fact less resilient and less capable of achieving and maintaining recovery. If they experienced housing frustration so just to underline what you're saying Peter about the the absolute crucial importance of housing. We have a Harley la rock, we have a video vignette of Harley la rock who's going to tell us exactly how important recovery housing was and is for him. So we can roll that vignette now please. Hi my name is Harley rock. I'm a person of long term recovery. I guess I'm an awful just say like as a kid, I, you know I felt fear and anxiety, and I just didn't just didn't feel right. So I spent a lot of my future life, you know trying to escape reality with substances from, you know, one to to the next, and just just to kind of escape reality. You know, 2016. I overdosed and ended up in a coma and ICU, where I damaged my heart and my brain, and fortunately I woke up, and I realized, you know, maybe a couple weeks later that I had to change, or I was going to die. So a friend had suggested recovery housing. I gave me the number to Vermont Foundation recovery. And, you know, I joined as a member in February 12 of 2017. And, you know, one of the things that someone had taught me in recovery was, you know, there's one thing that you have to change and that's everything. And I, I believe that there was a lot that I had to change the way I was living my life and the rules that I had adopted and were living by definitely did not work. So what before offered me was structure, accountability and rules to live by that I had not been born with or been taught up until that point in my life. I believed in the process. And my life changed very quickly. As I was, I was following these rules and living this new life. You know, change happened pretty quickly. And, you know, I guess that's what I needed to believe in the process. And because of that, you know, I left a career of fine dining cooking to become a recovery house manager at V4 in 2019. And, you know, I've kind of stepped the ladder at V4 and become an admin. And I still manage the recovery house in St. Albans. And I guess, you know, how the life has changed for me is there's been a lot of firsts that have occurred in my life. First car loan at 39. I'm now in my first apartment where I pay the bills and rent on time. You know, I enjoy volunteering and helping my community. I try to hang out with my family as much as I can. You know, I've adapted writing, I'm a poet. I do other types of art. I've been a musician while living at V4. Many different things that I wasn't able to like focus on and do while I was in active use. You know, what V4 has given me is a life that I never knew I wanted or deserved or could achieve. And just by adapting these rules and policies and living them to the best of my ability. I have a life today that, you know, is a miracle that I'm very grateful for. Well, thank you, Harley. Thank you for your courage and your genuine, you know, just the truth about your life. I mean, I could see and everyone's faces, the panel's faces were all filled with joy. We all have goose pimples. Here's a kid who, you know, overdoses and damages his brain and his heart wakes up in a, you know, an emergency room. A few months later, he registers at V4. And it's a life changing experience. He talks about structure, accountability, rules, you know, everybody's pathway to recovery is different. You know, David, can you just please elaborate on what's going on at the Vermont, you know, Foundation of Recovery. What are these miracles that are being enabled there? What's going on? Well, thank you very much, Ed. And I mean, Harley, I don't know that I could ever say it any better than what Harley did, right? I mean, what a shining example of somebody who, you know, reached a place in their lives where they were willing and able and surrounded by love who cared about them and had the support and the structure and the resources to change their lives. And Harley deserves the credit. And one of the things that I will say is that, you know, recovery housing is amazing. And the magic of it is not anything that we do. The magic of a recovery residence is the peer to peer support and the connections that the members of the home create while living. The magic is what happens at eight o'clock at night when people are sitting on the couch flipping through the television talking about their day. Somebody's explaining how frustrated they were that their supervisor at work got on their case because they took too long of a break. And the other person who maybe has been there a little bit longer or maybe just has more work experience says, oh, well, that's interesting. The way that I found to avoid that is to not take too long of a break. And they just keep going about watching television because it's not coming from an authority figure. It's coming from somebody else who is walking the same path and is moving in the same direction is genuinely sharing their experience of a strategy that's worked for them to overcome that particular challenge. Right. And that's a very, very small example, but it happens, you know, on an exponential scale in recovery residences every day where people are creating these connections. They develop a bond and trust with each other. They're comfortable sharing about their real life experience and learning from one another. So it's just an incredible environment and our role at Vermont Foundation of Recovery is really to try to create those spaces for that magic to be able to have. And have homes that are set up in a way that is as family like as they can be in good neighborhoods like Peter had mentioned earlier, that are close to recovery supports, close to transportation, close to employment opportunities and really, you know, allow people the very best chance at connecting with the community within their home and connecting with the community that their home is in and really, you know, getting back to being valued members of society, because, you know, I myself am a person in recovery, and to me that means that I haven't ingested a mood or mind altering substance that wasn't prescribed by a doctor since January of 2007. And I can tell you, thank you, I, you know, I really appreciate it, but a lot of the credit goes to the people that came before me, and the folks that were there and were present and available and supportive and willing to share their experiences when I finally became willing to enter into recovery. And if it wasn't for that support and it wasn't for the people that came before me, I would be lost. And and that's, you know, the environment that the recovery centers which we're going to hear about later, they create those opportunities for connection with people who have been in recovery in some way shape or form for a period of time that people who are new can relate to. And the same thing with the recovery residences and my experience was that I entered recovery without a lot of life skills. You know, I didn't know how to do laundry I didn't know how to balance a checkbook or budget my money. I didn't know how to write a grocery list, go shopping, buy those items and create meals out. Right, like that's not that was not my experience when I went to a grocery store I wandered around and I found things that I like to eat and I put them in the cart and then went home and tried to figure out how am I going to eat off of this for a week I just I didn't have that skills. But when I was in early recovery I had other skill sets that I could bring to the table and share with others and we were able to learn from each other and grow based on all of our collective experiences. And so, you know, it's really a privilege for me to be a part of Vermont Foundation of Recovery I consider myself, you know, blessed to be able to serve and the mission of the organization is to create a statewide network of recovery homes to help people suffering from substance use disorders, reassembly into society by supporting the transitions from active use to recovery to independent and so when Harley shared about the first in his life. I mean, my, my heart is full right to hear somebody be able to share about having their first, you know, automobile loan, and having their own apartment to call home and the utilities and their right because that's what it's all about is just providing people with the space to to grow personally, to achieve whatever their own goals are. And, and there is structure within the home we do hold people accountable. Anybody that's a member of the four can choose their own recovery path, whatever that may look like for them whatever they believe is the right combination of resources and supports that are out there. However, you have to have a recovery path, you know, and you have to be engaged with that. So that involves a certain number of activities per week that changes as you've been in the home for a little while. You know, it requires people to either work or go to school or volunteer at least 20 hours a week. So that is based on self esteem and people build self esteem by being active members in communities outside of the home and and also feeling like folks are able to stand on their own two feet. So people do pay weekly membership dues to be part of the organization. And again, that comes back we charge people about half of what the cost is to actually be able to provide a space in one of our homes, and for people to be, you know, engaged with the other supports and member services that come with membership. But we do feel like it's important that there be something that people are doing to be self sustaining and self supporting and that there is self esteem that comes from. And then you know there's a weekly house meeting where people come together and sort of talk about the challenges within the home and how to resolve those and develop those skills of working together and connecting with each other and managing conflict and being good roommates and all of those types of things that come along with living with others that again our skill sets that I spent a long time living with other people when I was in active use of substances, but I don't know that I was a very good roommate or in that period of time right and and those are skills that I needed to develop I needed to think about others and I needed to think about being selfless and trying to give more than I take and you know all of that are things that are sort of guided or cultivated through house meetings and in recovery residences and then you know I think what's really important for folks to understand is that, you know, as Peter will remember a lot of the work in Vermont stems from a task force that was born out of an advisory committee at, you know, I think back was referred to as bamhar but now is recovery Vermont and and you know we created a task force to look at bringing a Vermont affiliate of the National Alliance of Recovery Residences which is called NAR to Vermont and get it started and that's what that task force did it created the Vermont Alliance of Recovery Residences which is Btar. They have national standards and national code of ethics there's a national conference that goes on best practices are shared there are two different week monthly information sharing sessions that you know utilize video technology like we're doing now to keep people connected and really moving forward and making sure that that social model of recovery is practiced in certified recovery homes. And so the Vermont Alliance of Recovery Residences certified seven homes. Sorry, 17 homes before has six homes and we have three transitional apartments, serving up to 40 individuals at a time and we also employ about seven people who are in recovery themselves because the majority of our board of directors are people who are in recovery. You know so what a gift to be a part of an organization that touches the lives of, you know, 50 or so individuals on any given day who are in recovery in the state of Vermont, and what a gift to be a part of this kind of a initiative, and I can't thank Ron and dominion and Peter and recovery Vermont and add yourself and the art show for giving us the opportunity because the recovery centers and you know people like Tracy are doing incredible work to support folks who are in recovery and not only is it, you know, morally and ethically the right thing to do to help our fellow communities and provide all individuals with the best chance at being successful in their lives as possible, but it's also good for our community. So it is a good investment of time and resources to give people the best chance because as hardly mentioned, right, like he is giving to society, there is a return on the investment that was made in Harley's recovery, right, and there was a return to society and the investment made on my own recovery. You know, people who are in recovery have higher than average earning potential. You know, they are the first ones to volunteer and want to give back. They are coaches of sports teams and they are serving on, you know, boards and they are, you know, at the community, county, state, federal, right, like all of the people who are in recovery, given the opportunity and the space to be able to get well and the support and the guidance and the love to be able to be healthy again. Give back and contribute to our society in a really meaningful way. And it just makes sense that we would want to give those folks the best chance that we possibly can. And so, you know, the efforts that Recovery Vermont is making to allow this project to move forward and not have any fees and be that fiscal agent, the efforts that Ron and Dominion Diagnostics have made to make this possible and just have the idea, your efforts had to help get the message out and always be combatting stigma and giving Vermonters the best chance is just incredible. And we're so grateful and we hope that, you know, people will learn a little bit, people will understand that, you know, folks who are in recovery are just people like any other. There's a good chance that we are all interacting with folks who are in recovery every day of our lives and we don't ever know unless they take the time to sit down and share it with us. And, you know, I hope that if folks are able to they're, you know, willing to contribute to the challenge and support great resources like the recovery centers that are out there and and recovery residences throughout Vermont. So thank you all very much for allowing us to be a part of it. Well, well, thank you. Thank you, David. I mean you are and all the panel members are surely examples of individuals whose minds are in science, whose minds are in research, whose minds are in an awareness and a dedication to best practices for this particular population. But while our minds are occupied with all that stuff, our hearts are in compassion and that's the best possible combination you can have. So for the viewing audience out there David was very articulate and, you know, in closing he mentioned what the people on this panel are doing. I just want to extend the invitation to the viewing audience because I know how many people want to do something. Not everybody is fortunate enough to work in this field or even to know what to do, but I know you all want to do something. So jot down the link that's running in the banner on the show. And don't hesitate. Just don't hesitate. Just give a little of yourself freely and be be as much a part of this as you can possibly be. So, with that, I'm just checking our time here. We're doing we're doing pretty good so is there anybody else that wants to pop in on this particular topic of, you know, recovery housing and maybe, you know, comment on a little further on this. I'd like to say, you know, recovery housing I mean the work that we do at the recovery centers. You know the frustrating part is that there is so many people we serve that are homeless. Right. And you, how can they get on their path to recovery when they don't have a stable place to live so having more recovery residences having safe places for them to go is is an absolute necessity. It's very hard for people that are homeless living in tents couch surfing to even get a smidgen of a hold of what recovery looks like. Yeah, very, very difficult. In fact, maybe, maybe impossible. You know, before the show I was kind of thinking about, you know, just thinking about everything and, you know, Abraham Maslow people get mad at me for bringing up Abraham Maslow everybody studied Abraham for his introduction to sociology. Many years ago it's very basic. Abraham Maslow came up with a single the hierarchy of need. And the most basic needs are at the bottom of a triangle, and then they got more, you know, refined over over over time the highest need being the need for creativity. But but housing, the safety of a place to be is a very, very, very basic need. What can you do if you don't have a safe place to be practically practically you practically set up to continue to to use drugs. I'd like to move into the next segment, Peter, would you care to comment a little bit on, you know, recovery centers in particular. Yeah, thank you, Ed. The, you know, again, I think we've seen a big paradigm shift in recovery over the past decade or so. 10 years ago or 15 years ago if you, if you were an individual who was curious about recovery or wanting to get into recovery, you know, where did you go, where did you, you wouldn't know where to go in many cases. So over the years, Vermont has developed an entire network of recovery centers 12 in Vermont, there is one in every community, there is one that is near every single Vermonter Bennington to St. John's Berry and everywhere in between. And they're sort of getting at what you were referring to earlier. It used to be that substance use disorder was a was a hidden condition filled shame stigma. And now we know that it's simply health condition, and it's a health condition for which we can bring evidence based practices. And most importantly, it's a health condition from which people recover. We see that every single day. So there is a recovery center near you that you should go visit and learn about even just as a community member. One of the great examples of this is the Rutland Turning Point Center in Rutland. We're going to be hearing from Tanya and Tracy in a minute, but they've done I think two really powerful things. First thing they've done is they've opened their doors to anybody who's interested in recovery with a huge variety of programs. You know, seemingly seven days a week, just amazing the amount of supports they give their meeting people where they are at. And then number one, and then number two, they're opening their doors to the community itself. You ever drop by there and visit you may see the local police officer just chatting people up or folks walking in from the street or folks dropping off lasagnas. They're really saying that we are a resource that's here to support the community and the community saying, we love you, we want to support you because you're doing mission critical work. So I love our recovery centers. And I think if you're ever curious about it, their doors are open for you as well, and you should go visit the local one. Thank you, Peter. So at this point we have another tape vignette for a person with with lived experience in addiction and recovery, and specifically with a recovery center Tanya, right. So if we could please play that vignette now. Thank you Tanya thank you so much for being with us. I'll just hand the floor over to you to share your, your lived experience. Thank you again. Thank you so much, Ed, and thanks for allowing me to speak here today. So, my name is Tanya right. I'm the associate director of the turning point center of Rutland. I'm also the recovery coach and the emergency department supervisor. I am also a person in long term recovery, I've been in recovery for about six years now. I started using when I was very young about 12 years old on my using progress pretty rapidly throughout my teenage years and into my 20s. Got on a maintenance program when I was about 35, one of many attempts on but something about this time. I was just extremely focused and really, really wanted to. Well, I was desperate for something anything different. So, I was placed at the Rutland turning point center in order to complete my community service commitment, because I was receiving reach up at the time. I, at that time in my life was extremely had been isolated for many, many years on very untrusting of other people. I had no desire to be at turning point whatsoever. You know, but it was something that I had to do. I showed up every day. Sometimes on time sometimes not, but I showed up. And I think the thing about it was that when I went there terrified, very shy, very withdrawn. Nobody judged me. Nobody looked down on me. Nobody treated me differently. I didn't have to tell my story 8 million times to a million different people. I was allowed to just kind of be. And, you know, the more that I showed up at turning point, the more that it started to feel comfortable and the volunteers and the staff really made me feel like I was accepted. And after a while started to kind of feel like a family and kind of like home, which wasn't really a feeling that I was accustomed to. So, you know, over time, I went from community service to volunteering. So I suddenly wanted to be there. And I spent about six months volunteering in that time. I was offered recovery coach Academy, different responsibilities at the center. And for me, it was kind of life changing because nobody had ever trusted me with responsibility or believe that I had the ability to fulfill these tasks and, you know, do the things that I needed to do. And before I knew it really I was completing all these trainings and I was talking to people every day and doing presentations and meeting with court people and police officers and correctional like all the people that normally I would have tried to avoid. And now just community members and people that I met with day to day just in the job. And I think the biggest thing that really hooked me for turning point was when I started coaching individuals that were like me. You know, turning point really allowed me to do something I never thought I'd have the chance to, which is just comfortably and on my time to figure out who I was and what I had to offer. And then I think, you know, people kind of overlook that that when you're using for pretty much, you know, most of your life, childhood into adulthood, you don't learn the normal things you don't know the things that people expect you to know and having that safe non judgmental environment to figure out who you are and make mistakes and learn from mistakes and, you know, just move forward in your life and your recovery, while you're also helping other people do the same. It really was like priceless for me. I, I don't know how else I could have achieved that really turning point is a huge part of my life. I've been working here for five years now, worked my way up and, you know, it's just, it means so much to me, and I know that it means so much to the people that come in every day. I can't even thank you enough, Tanya, for your honesty and your courage and for being with us here today. Congratulations on your many, many accomplishments and and once again, just just thank you. Thank you for the opportunity and thank you so much. So, so once again, we have a panel filled with with joy, and we have a window into two people that is just an incredible, you know, we actually got to see a brain healing in action. You know, she talks about it she says, suddenly, I wanted to be there. It's the moment suddenly something shifted suddenly she went from being terrified to wanting to be there. It's that stigma free environment that allows people to grow to people she began using drugs when she was 12 Harley said, I never wasn't born with and I never learned the rules that it takes to live. And that's what before gave to him so this is just these people are incredible examples of what you do, what you create the environment said you create for them to become the people they can be recovery supports just so so beautiful. I'm going to hand it over to Tracy I saw you kind of bubbling over with joy so so go ahead Tracy. Oh, I'll probably get emotional. Thank you Ed. I'm kind of at a loss for words I watching that video. I've seen time is transformation. You know I've been director since she started here I'm the one that hired her. And it's just such a beautiful thing. You know to see her gain self esteem established boundaries have values have morals, have confidence in herself. You know, and what she gives to the people that we serve in our center is amazing. And she's just one example of the staff that I have here everybody I have our people in recovery. And most of the time when they start here they're probably within their first year of recovery they want to get a job, you know and it's, they volunteer for a while and, you know depending on their, you know, ability to show up and be there on time and be reliable. You know they can move into a paid position. And you know with that comes the building of their confidence and the acceptance and you know what's given to them they give back to others. And I think in recovery centers it's a unique work environment because I have my center not just thinking of the people we serve and how we can support them but I also have to be supportive and somewhat flexible for some of the staff I have, because of their own recovery, things that come up situations that come up. And with Tanya, I mean I could tell you in the beginning it was like whatever hours she could show up here to work. And Tanya had to accept. I mean she's a single mom with two young kids. You know, and so she couldn't get here till 11 o'clock. She got here at 11 o'clock, but she put forth the work because I gave her that ability to have the flexibility, you know, and I have to do that with all my staff I have to be mindful of where we're at in recovery. And it's just a beautiful thing that happens and we are like a family. I believe that's the way it is with all the recovery centers you know and, and we kind of, I'm struggling for the word I want to use but it's like we are there before, during and after. And while they're using we're there when they're contemplating changing, we're there when they're going through clinical services, we're there if they get kicked out of clinical services we're just a constant. You know, we're always there as long as they want to come and access our services. There's no fine line that says okay you can't come back here anymore. You know, just, I think about our correctional program that we launched here in Rutland when we were going into the correctional facility, and yes a lot of my staff that went I mean Tonya and I were the first ones to start doing that going into a male correctional facility. Tonya knew some of the people that were in there, but the way that she was able to learn how to set boundaries with that and you know what we gave to them was it wasn't asking them questions about what brought them into jail. You know it wasn't like what crimes did you commit it wasn't picking and choosing who it was all voluntary who wanted to come to our groups and I mean we'd have the room would be full. 20 some odd people as word spread, because they just wanted to feel accepted, they wanted to feel safe, they wanted to feel like they weren't being judged. And it's, you know there's many of them I mean during COVID when we couldn't go we still can't go into the correctional facility but when COVID hit we wrote letters our recovery coaches that were coaching and mates at the at the jail at the Valley started writing letters, we got letters back, we had several individuals that were released during COVID. They stayed in touch they're still in touch to this day. You know, and I mean my own story is is very similar to that my my story is you know my recovery I came to my first 12 step meeting here at the center. I didn't know where I began I didn't I didn't know where to go I didn't know what to do. But that feeling that, even though it was awkward and it was uncomfortable that feeling that I felt walking into the center of being welcomed and feeling safe and not judged and not question. And that helped me get through that uncomfortable feeling of being there, you know, and, you know, and now here I am now the director and and I didn't plan on becoming the director I thought I'd go back into nursing, but I felt like this is where I needed to be because if it was given to me so freely, and it helped me think about how many more people that can help. You know, it. I don't know it's just in recovery centers being nonprofits I think a lot of people don't understand that. So many people in recovery want to do this work, but being a nonprofit. That's why I'm so excited about this fundraiser is that we don't have the funding to offer anybody any benefits. I have to limit how much staff I have. I mean, I don't even have health insurance. You know, that's the reality of it. And it's a struggle but we do it anyway regardless of not having benefits because it feeds our soul and it feeds our recovery. And I apologize for getting emotional but when I talk about this people just think you just pull people out of the air to do this work. And that lived experience is what really helps other people. Thank you. Thank you, Tracy. You know, your story is beautiful and your rendition of your experience with Tonya at the recovery center is also equally beautiful I can see the panelists deeply deeply touched by by your sharing. You know, I was I was part of the north central Vermont recovery center. When I lived in LaMoyle County and I used to spend a lot of time there because I too like, like, like all of us I'm also in recovery and it was a place to go to continue to grow and also to kind of give back as you mentioned it's so important to us. And I can't even begin to tell you how many times I've heard people say, if it wasn't for this place, I'd be dead. If it wasn't for this place, I'd be using. If it wasn't for this place, I'd be in jail. And they weren't being figurative. People being literal. When when we started that recovery center in Marsville, we received $50,000 from from the state of Susan Bartlett was a person in the Senate who kind of led the effort for us. And I did some research on incarceration and I found out that it costs exactly $50,000 to incarcerate one person for one year. So it's just it's pretty incredible the return that we get on the investment in recovering is mind boggling. I'm going to say that to the viewers, you know, if you're motivated, don't hesitate. Just don't hesitate. No contribution is too small and I will hasten to add, no contribution is too large either. So don't hesitate. If you want to give a little bit, go ahead and do that. And if you can't give, you know, a donation, donate your your empathy, donate your compassion, you know, donate your your your your support for for people in recovery in Vermont. And so we're now to the panel members to just join in the discussion either about recovery centers in general or wherever you want to, wherever you want to jump in. And I'd like to jump in real briefly. This, this challenge is so critical and important to substance use disorder is both preventable and treatable, but more importantly, with the support that our centers and our homes provide, recovery is sustainable. And this challenge is not just about raising awareness to the fact that folks recover with support, incredible arm wrapping almost smothering support from our recovery organizations, because that's what's needed. Now it's time to celebrate what they do to support all of us in recovery. This is deeply personal to me because when I first entered recovery, I had an outpouring of support that most people don't have. For me, it's a sense of gratitude. I wake up every day working for a company like Dominion Diagnostics that not just values recovery in its employees, but hires folks like me to support Vermont's continuum of care. So I guess I will implore I will encourage and I will throw out an impassioned plea. Tracy said it best. Our centers and these homes are nonprofits. They don't have a for profit mentality, but that all of us, every Vermonter should recognize and be willing to step forward and support in whatever way they can. And as we value and we thank what you do because we appreciate and see the results of your effort. So now it's time for all of us and a tenant of recovery is about giving more than you take. And that's how we all sustain our lives of recovery because we understand the service component and everyone here on the screen does this, especially Peter Dave and Tracy. They do it every hour of every day that they wake up and work so my hope is is that Vermonters will not only understand the beauty and value of recovery but understand it's time for us all to step up during recovery during recovery month to support and recognize and value what they do. Thank you. Thank you Ron well said, and let's just continue with our, you know, our group discussion we have Harley we have Tanya, you know, does anybody want to jump in. I just want to add that I think about generational addiction, you know the cycle of addiction, and by watching Tanya's video and seeing where she's at right now if we want to get rid of, or, you know, reduce the numbers affected by this disease. We got to, we got to change that generational cycle. Tanya is an example of that she has two young girls, you know, hopefully she's going to break that cycle. That's going to heal more families that's going to touch more people it's going to make a healthier Vermont. You know, and I think that's it's not just about one person it's about every person that that person touches. Yeah. Yeah, you know, Peter, I think alluded to it a little earlier. When he, he referenced this concept of a sea change that that there seems to be a cultural tipping that's occurring at this point when it comes to stigma and eradicating stigma releasing compassion and really providing people with the love and care and support and services. They need to both achieve and as Ron had pointed out sustain hell. And it's, it's evident. I think it's more evident in Vermont than it is in any other state in our nation. We should be very proud. The legislature is behind us the governor is behind us. The recovering community is incredibly incredibly powerful. You know, Ron, Ron mentioned, you know, people who are employed in in, you know, providing services and this is crucial to this movement in Vermont but I also I would not hesitate to give a shout out to the many thousands in AA alcoholics anonymous and narcotics anonymous who tirelessly work in their own way, giving back and supporting each other literally 24 seven for giving freely of themselves, you know, at any hour of the day, you know, to, in some sense, to complement what the people on this panel are doing. They're out there 24 seven 365 days a year. And I think this panel includes where we're all part of that too but I just want to to recognize them, them also. So who wants to join in now. We'll have a few moments left we're lucky. Well, I Peter mentioned earlier, Johan Hari and, and there are a couple of books that that Johan has written that speak to a lot of the concepts that we're talking about today and I would encourage anybody to, you know, look those up and, and, you know, take a read through and one of the concepts that's mentioned is aces in terms of, you know, childhood trauma and the indicators that that puts on somebody's chances of developing substance use disorder later in their lives and, you know, Tracy, I think is right on the money in the sense that, as a community, we have the opportunity to change the time and break those generational cycles and, and that's going to yield tremendous results over a long period of time and we've tried a lot of strategies as a society to, to, you know, address these types of topics and, you know, we are where we are right and if folks are interested in trying some different strategies and, and leaning on folks with lived experience and peer to peer support and, and, you know, sort of going to the experts who are the people who have lived and been through it. This is a different way that that we can go and I would also point out that we still have a long way to go recovery centers are not that old in the state of Vermont, even though the concept essentially originally right like recovery residences in the state of Vermont, while they may have been around for a long time this new idea of multiple levels to recovery residences and all paths to recovery like it's a different concept and there are still room to grow I'm sure there are many things that Tracy would love to be able to do at the Rutland Turning Point Center provided the resources to do. There are a lot of ways that V for and other recovery residences would like to evolve and like to focus on people and supporting individuals when they do have moments of crisis and, you know, the administration and Harris administration is called out recovery residences in their policies. You know, there are all kinds of new things that are being learned and developed in and looked at and I would just encourage anybody that's out there to understand that you know none of us are perfect. None of our organizations are perfect. We are nonprofits we are all doing the best we can with the resources that we have available. I mean Tracy mentioned not having health care benefits. We work another full time job, and I'm I'm compensated by V for for 20 hours a week and I wasn't compensated at all for the first four or five years the organization exists. And that's just the reality of nonprofits in the state of Vermont and starting from nothing but everybody cares about the work care about Vermonters and we want to grow and we want to get better and we want to evolve and we want to help. And at Ron's point, you know that means that we need your help. Right on. All right, thank you. David we have only a few seconds left so I'll close the show to the viewing audience. Remember, Harley. Remember, Tanya. Remember the the great healing forces at this panel tends to put in place and then sustain over time because they care. Remember the importance of caring. And if you can, I'll say just one more time, express your care by by donating and supporting this this great, this great recovery movement in Vermont. So, so thank you on the screen will linger now, giving you the information you need to donate and thank you so much to my panel I couldn't be more proud than to be here here with you mighty warriors all of you thank you. Thank you.