 Okay, it's noon on a given Thursday. I'm Jay Fiedel. This is Stink Tech and we have an exciting discussion about reforestation in Hawaii while exciting. Okay, and we have Leslie Cole-Brooks. She's been in and around environmental and energy things for the last 60, 70 years, isn't it, Leslie? She's an attorney. Watch out. Hi, Leslie. Thank you for coming around. All right, and we have Susan Colitello and Rebecca Ostertag. You want to try to introduce them at least a little bit, Leslie? Sure. So today we're going to talk about Bill 178 that passed the Hawaii County Council's really exciting bill for reforestation and forest preservation. And we've all been working together as a team to get this through, and it's just been a great team. So first, Dr. Becky Ostertag. She's a professor of biology. She's at UH Hilo. And she's been working on forest restoration for a long time, and she knows a lot about trees. And she really gets out there and likes to weed, I think. What was that poem? There was a poem, I think, I shall never see something as lovely as a tree? Yes. Yeah, okay. You probably have that inscribed on your wall at home. Okay, Leslie, please continue. And then Dr. Susan Purdell, she's with the Institute of Pacific Forestry, and she also has been working on restoration ecology and reforestation, and she and Becky have been working together, and they're just a dream team. That's what it is. Okay, great. So Leslie, let's talk about that, Bill. What does it say? And what is the effort? And when will you actually engage with the legislature on it? Well, we did that, and we're done. So we've been working on this all year, and the bill passed just this couple of weeks ago, August 17th, and it was bill 178, and what it did is we updated the Hawaii County Code for Native Forest Preservation and Restoration. So we, it's kind of a long story, but we all ended up realizing we were working on the same thing, and got together, looked at the county and said, how can we make this better? So we'll really support preservation and restoration of native forest here. So it's signed into law now? It is, yes. Okay, and what does it provide? Well, it does several things. First and most interesting, it creates new categories of native forest medications. It's really an interesting way of looking at resilience and at restoration work. We also work to ensure that the timing of the tax incentive goes into place once you start the work, and we worked on the money, of course, too, to make it more advantageous. Because it's not easy work, and it's a labor of love, and you should benefit from that. What's the money thing? Does it cost money to do this? Yeah, yeah, it does because anybody that is trying to do anything out in their yard, in their window box outside of their kitchen window, what on 100 acres, a thousand acres of forestry knows that it takes money. It takes a lot of elbow grease, but it takes money to do. So what the dedication does is, if you're a property owner, you can set aside a certain amount of land, and you promise, through a commitment that's recorded on your deed, to protect and or restore depending on what you're doing that property for a certain amount of time, and you get a reduced property tax for the duration of that dedication. What's the reduction, what percent? You know, it really depends. I know it seems like that would be just a simple answer, but it's not. It's anywhere on average from $150 a year to $1,500 a year or more. It depends on the size of the dedication. It depends on what type of dedication. It depends upon the market rate of the property. There's a lot of different. Okay. So whatever the formula is, is this working? I mean, is this bill already operating? This act already, you know, doing stuff, or you have to wait and see? And how do you know that people are going to respond to the incentive? Well, so the bill goes into effect January 1, 2021. You need to get your application in by September 1 of that year in order to have it considered. Oh, so you'll know, you'll know in September. Yes, but that's, by the way, September. Am I right about this? September, Leslie, I don't tell you anything you don't know. September is now. Next year. It goes into the next year. Okay. That's fine. But there is already a native force dedication in place. And what we did is we upgraded, we amended it to bring in here and make it work for what's going on now. So there are already 129 dedications and over 68,000 acres that have already been dedicated. Oh, that's great. What's that's really good news. Susan, are you excited about that? Of course. Yeah. And if I can add something to what Leslie is talking about, one of the key things in our motivation behind working on this bill is that it puts doing forest restoration on par with other land uses. So right now, having a pasture is the cheapest tax rate you can get. So we wanted to also give incentives for people to have forests on their lab and by having force or restoring back to getting forest, which is a lengthy and expensive process. We want to give people incentives that are equal to the incentives or similar to the incentives that they're doing for other land uses like pasture. So that's what's really exciting about this bill is that it elevates the role of forest and Hawaii for for individual property owners. So when you say that you're including very important lands under the agriculture agriculture incentive act. But that's when you designate the owner designates the land is very important land is all kinds of tax benefits that flow by using the land for agricultural purposes. Yes, these would be most. I think in almost all cases they'd be things that had been zoned under agriculture is that correct Leslie. We've been setting them aside a certain amount aside to do for us to maintain either in native forest or to do restoration. Okay. I just wanted to ask you, Susan, why should I care about this. You know, for those of you, you know, for those of the listeners that don't know Hawaii is a very unique place with very endemic and unique biodiversity. And we've been losing a lot of it and for a lot of different reasons we've been losing it we've been losing it because of land use change because of disturbance because of invasive species are highly problematic and so for us to preserve and protect these iconic species, for example, Ohia forests. We need to, we need to include the public in helping us, you know it can just be land management agencies that can do this and especially on the big island where people own large tracts of land, and often do have native forest on them. It's great that they have this opportunity to put these aside and protect our native forests and so really excited about doing this we've been trying to do restoration for many many years and it's very challenging so some of the changes that we made to this new tax bill are really making it much easier for landowners and we can go into those categories if you're interested. Oh yeah if we have time but let me ask you. So what why do I care about reforestation you know I mean apparently, we were losing trees up to this point otherwise you guys would not have put the effort into the bill. Well, well, do you like fresh water. Yeah, I'm a big, I'm a big fan. Yeah, do you like sun protection and clean air. Coral reefs. So you're saying it's connected to every other element in the environment. Yes. Okay, and if we did nothing about it what would happen. We're losing more and more forest in Hawaii over time as people develop as we get invasion by species that are not native to Hawaii that are very fast growing and reproducing very quickly both native, both non native plants and animals. And that's basically degrading our environment. And without those ecosystem services like water recharge of water, the purification of the atmosphere, all of those services biodiversity are really important to maintaining our way of life here in Hawaii. When we lose forest wherever this has happened in the world, the quality of life and public health has declined precipitously. We need the forests and the Hawaiian islands were predominantly forest before people got here. So getting them back to some state of forestation is vital for our entire island system. Well, what kind of trees you like I mean I'll be easier is kind of invasive isn't it you don't like it will be easier too much eucalyptus you like eucalyptus. In this bill. We have allowed. There's designations for a native forest, a dedication or native forest restoration. In that category you have to have at least 60% native forest cover. You also have to have a species list for your property. And that species list in the management plan that the owner develops will be scrutinized to avoid highly invasive species. So there's a lot of really good work done by sea gaps and Hawaii invasive species Council in Hawaii that's been developing the weed risk assessment. We use that science to try to determine the best species. They're going to fit on properties in Hawaii and avoid the highly invasive species that are going to spread. I don't want to support. Be as invasive. So you wouldn't favor that but no eucalyptus eucalyptus is not invasive and you might feature that some eucalyptus are in the eucalyptus is a very big group. Some of them are listed as invasive some of the species and some are not. I'm sure students come from miles around to talk about this with you and your environmental classes. I mean, are you a popular teacher where they spill out into the passageway. Well someone wrote that I was the best on my board outside my office days ago so I guess I'll say that I'm a popular teacher. It's a, you know, the thing that's exciting about being a student here in Hawaii is the chance to really get to Malama Aina to get to go on field trips to get to work on the land to get to see all these different environments. And that's something that we have here on the big island that you cannot really replicate anywhere else. Oh yeah, in many ways it's not only the terrain it's the people, but let me ask you this you know I went to New Zealand a few years ago and I, and I walked the Milford track, which is beautiful beautiful across the top the mountains and all beautiful. And I found that the students in the universities of New Zealand came around and maintain the trail maintained the flora and fauna they were actively involved as volunteers they would spend the whole summer for example doing that. What about the students at UH Hilo, they come around and spend the whole summer planting trees. Oh definitely we have students that are very involved in all kinds of activities we have active internship programs here like the Pacific internship program for exploring science the pipes program, we have many grants. Okay Hilo program the LSAMP program that provides students with these kinds of activities and internships, working with faculty working with different agencies. Students, we have a sustainability club on campus we've got a geography clubs they're all doing lots of environmental work lots of field trips. We also have the lifeblood of why students want to come here we're also get many students from all over the country that want to come to specifically Hilo on exchange just to be involved in our environment and get to experience these kinds of things. We need that we need to reinforce that. So you know, in fact Leslie, on the state of Hawaii has a huge deficit this year because of COVID. I think it's over two, two billion dollars is big for Hawaii, two billion and change. And you know the cares act kind of stopped in the middle we don't have a second chapter of the cares act and the state is going to be called on to spend money to save people's lives here in the next few weeks or months. Where's it going to get the money for the trees. Where's it going to get the money to implement this, this, this plan. Well, the way this works is that it's the property owner that does the investment so it's not a cost to the county. There may be a slight cost the estimate based on all of the existing dedications. If these changes were made which it passed and so they are being made of approximately $10,000. So it's a very, very, very small cost to the county for the changes in the tax, the tax application. But when you consider the environmental benefits of clean water, native forest restoration species habitat, all of that. It's very small but that you're right that it's expensive but is borne by the property owner. And that's the beauty of this is that it's an investment that an individual person is doing for the benefit of everyone. Who does the work. I mean, when I say that, sorry, who does the managerial the administrative work to make this happen. You mean who on the individual property. Oh, you have a statute you have a statute with a plan and incentive. Does somebody keeping records somebody, you know, applying the incentives. Yes, it's the it's the Hawaii property tax division. And in fact, we have gotten an intern through you age actually a gentleman Sebastian Wells, who is a student of a Becky's. He is doing an internship to create these templates and make sure that the paperwork is as seamless. So it's very easy for the county to administer. Because we did consider that we wanted to make it easier for the property owners, but also easy for the county to make assessments, decide what passes muster what doesn't, and to be able to do that without it, without it taking up a lot of time or work. I think a big thing in a bill like this is a kind of adventurous I don't know if there are other bills and other states but at least for Hawaii I think this is very important. And so Susan, how do you make this sustainable, you know, because what happens really more often than not as you, you pass a bill like this you take a look at how it works. And then you tune it up going forward, and you have to have the flexibility and support ongoing support in the legislature to do that. What are we I mean, what do you think will have to be tuned those algorithms you were talking about about exactly what the you know the tax breaks are and so forth. They may have to be tuned up and may have to be expanded maybe more tax breaks if it doesn't. It doesn't have the desired effect or less tax breaks if you find out that too many people are, you know, being excused for too much taxes so forth. Do you have your eye on the future here what is the future. So that question would be better answered by Leslie in terms of of the procedures and protocols Leslie do you want to answer that question. Sure, so it's short every year the county determines what the tax rates are for different classifications. They're doing their fine tuning of their budget anyway. And in this case, the new classifications are tied to other classifications through a percentage. So as things adjust, kind of like a water level, the rate for the native force will adjust it will go up it will go down it will depend upon what's happening with the county budget, and that is determined every year depending upon what the need is. So, and then of course, like one of those science experiments where it can never get too hot because when it gets too hot it kills the you remember that one where. The Archimedean principle right you remember that self adjusting yeah back to Susan Susan. So what what's left for you to do in the Institute is there is other people handling all this or what's left for you. Well, I think that responsibility I feel that I want to carry forward with this is to convey that this is an opportunity for the public to help us and to get engaged in something that is such a feel good positive action. To me one of the most exciting things about this bill which is the fact that it's not just that people can plant things but if you have lava on your property which is very common here on the big island. It illustrates a lot of people view that as just sort of, you know, they don't think it's worth anything or have any value it's like a trash land, but to someone like an ecologist like me or Becky. We look at that and what we see is this is a playground for all of the new seeds and species to come in and start a forest so one of the great things about this tax bill is that you can actually set aside these lava lands and see restoration happen over time and encourage that that's one of the most exciting things that that I feel about this bill and then also that people can get this feeling of success because they don't have to get an all native forest on their property to benefit from this and they can also have perhaps fruit producing trees or agroforestry trees to help support the native biodiversity so I think my role I feel like from here on out is to really just spread the word that this is available to people encourage people to do this on their own lands and to to yeah just spread the word about the importance of native forest and how we need to protect them. You know, after the plantations began to fail in Hamakua and Harvey and all that area of the island. There was a it was a wood chip company. Yeah, it failed because all the wood chips burned one day, which was a bad thing. But they were making money growing trees, and then they were chipping the trees and selling the chips to Japan. And this is not the only entrepreneur experience we've had growing and selling trees. Where's where's the the boundary between what you're talking about and entrepreneurs, tree farmers, if you will, landowners, maybe big ones, maybe big ones with political clout kind. And where's the boundary between what you're talking about environmental things and people who would actually sell the product, cut it down and sell it. Yeah, I agree with you that that's an important component we need an economy and we need people to be able to have livelihoods that want to work off the land and so yeah I think that we need to find a balance. And certainly plantation forestry is something that is also supported by the tax code, and there can be benefits, depending on how you do plantations there can be ecosystem benefits that you can derive from that. And if you chop down the trees and are using the, the value of the wood for something then you regrow the trees back I mean we live in the topic so things grow very quickly here. Often in those kinds of settings there's also some of our native woods that are highly valuable like coa that you can do in a plantation style. And so you can not only get the benefits that that coa provides to the ecosystem but that also you can have a livelihood based on that so I think there's a balance that can be had. We have to give credit to whoever is doing that so they can stay in business and that might include depending on how the legal proceedings go that might include who are new up. So Rebecca, you know, I think both Susan and Leslie have talked about getting the word out and socializing this whole thing it goes beyond university, your class, all that, because in order to have an ongoing public opinion that will support this kind of project or expanded going forward, you need to get the word out how, aside from think tech which is a very important way to get the word out. How, how are you trying to get the word out to make everyone in town understand and support the project. And this question this is kind of where we're thinking as our next step so as Leslie mentioned we have an intern Sebastian wells who's a UH Hilo student in the tropical conservation biology environmental science program. He's working on this aspect he is going to be spending time developing public outreach materials. We are thinking about developing a postcard campaign. If we can in partnership with others to get the word out to the public. We want to develop webinars normally would probably held some seminars and public meetings but given these covert times will probably go with women webinars that will disseminate out to the public, and involve the public so that there's a lot of questions and answers because I imagine that individual landowners will have questions about how does this work with my property and those kinds of things. So, it's really important for us to get the word out. I also view this partnership that we've developed with the real property tax division in Hawaii County as a long term partnership. I'm willing to work on this as it moves forward if changes need to be made and adjustments need to be made, particularly to the force management plans that the landowners right. To our species list we're providing the public with suggested species lists of nurseries so they can get the information list of forestry professionals that may be able to help them develop their plans. So, for us the most exciting thing is if people actually do this and get the word out so that we get more forest because more forest in Hawaii is a win win for everyone. It's a win for the landowner, but it's a win for the environment and it's a win for our I know our island it's for for all of us and so the more people that we can get thinking about this and it is as Leslie mentioned a big initial investment by the landowner. But the more people we can get thinking about having more forest on the landscape, the better that's going to be for a force and for our ocean. Yeah, I know you're going to go but I just I want to add one thought, and that is don't forget Nelha natural energy laboratory of Hawaii authority. I'm sure all you guys know about that. And I think they would be interested in helping you do this on both sides of the boundary. And also on the entrepreneurial side. Okay, we're going to take a break. Well, not a break, but we're going to let you go Rebecca. Thank you so much. It's been really great to talk to you and to discuss more about Hawaii's forests. Thank you, Rebecca, Rebecca, thank you so much. Okay, we're going to talk to the rest of you guys now. And then Susan, this is your big opportunity to to say how much you agree with Rebecca or not. What is the natural kind of organic connection between the Institute which you need to describe that a little for us and I assume it's a nonprofit I assume it's an environmental nonprofit. I assume it's been around for a few years I assume you're totally dedicated to it. But what is the natural connection between you and Rebecca and Leslie, and the political establishment of the big island. I would be remiss if I agreed with you on all of that because we are not a nonprofit we are actually a government agency. Oh my God. How come you didn't tell me this Leslie only kidding. So, the Institute is part of the USDA Forest Service which is a national program. And so we're part of the research and development branch of the Forest Service and we're part of the Pacific Southwest Station which is in California, which has jurisdiction of California Hawaii and the US affiliate Pacific Islands. And that makes me want to ask you, you know, under the present administration, which some people feel is going to end in a few, in a few months. They don't like environmental, you know, initiatives very much. They rather have oil and gas and whatever. And they don't like to fund environmental efforts. Has that affected you at all your Institute. I don't want to speak about this on the radio J but no we know we are mandate mission has stayed the same all the way through this administration through the past so we're lucky that we continue doing our good work and yeah and so you asked previously about the connection with us with the community of Hawaiian with Leslie. That came together Becky, and I have been working together for the past 20 years, doing research on restoration ecology. And we've, we've worked really hard to try and restore Hawaii for us and we found a lot of struggles and we found some solutions along the way so we've worked together on on these projects and we were asked by the tax department to actually give a presentation on some of our work. And Leslie then was in contact with the tax department and they pulled us all together and we immediately connected on this bill and it really resonated because it's a dream when you're a scientist and you're actually doing research and you're doing work and then it actually the outcome of it turns into something that becomes law that helps protect the environment so I think for me that's been really satisfying in rewarding. Yeah, you're a scientist you mentioned that at the very front end and I think that's very important but why, why do we need a scientist in the Institute. How does your science support the efforts of the Institute. It doesn't sound complicated I dig a little hole. I put a little tree in there. I covered up with soil. That's it. What, what, what science do I need. Yeah, you know, you're right. The biggest issue that a tree like that that you planted doing that that method if you planted that the biggest problem that it would have is it would have it would get out competed by non native species. The problem that we have here in Hawaii is that we have a huge influx of invasive species that are much more competitive than our native species in terms of growth. So, what happens is land managers or homeowners if they're going to do restoration they spend all of their time dealing with invasive species. And it can cost thousands and thousands of dollars at an acre to maintain and keep out these invasive species to protect your, your native ones and so we needed to come up with an alternative so that we can help the native biodiversity, but also reduce the invasive species so we came up with this sort of fantasy football model if you want me to put it in those terms of, well, maybe we can help nature by picking species that have traits, you know, leaf size or deep roots or shallow roots that actually can play well together with native species, and serve different functions, and so that you can actually make what we're calling a functional forest that includes native species and non native species so these non native species are fulfilling a role that native species that got, that are extinct now serve so. You must love this work. It gives you a chance to create a theater of natural beauty and everything works it's like I can hear the music, it's music there. We're out of time Leslie, I am sorry about this Susan I really love this discussion, and I'm sorry Rebecca lost left to but Leslie, you know, my final questions to you. And I wonder if you could a summarize what we've learned here today and be, you know, leave a takeaway for people who have seen this show and, you know, would like that you would like to them to have a message from all of you. Okay. Well, I think to summarize, native forests are way to go. Okay. The county of Hawaii is really acting on it I so admire them we had three hearings and we got a unanimous approval, all three times. It is just all guns blazing as plain out a good metaphor all pissed inspiring. We're good to go and for people that are feeling a little disheartened these days because of what's going on in the world. This is some good news, because we're really looking to the future here. And this is going to set up policy that I'm hoping to take to other places. Oh, very good. Exporting exporting environmental knowledge I love that. Yeah. And really progressive research that Becky and Susan have been doing and then I built in on the law part, and make it work. So this is the beginning of taking research and making it real and practical for regular people to invest and have a way to give Okay, what about the regular people you're going to leave a message with them you're going to tell them what the takeaway is, what they should be thinking about going forward. So, to look for the webinar that we're working on for more detailed information on how to actually do this there is some time because the application for the first go around of this new updated version isn't until next year. And meanwhile to start putting some money aside and I think get a really good shovel because the strawberry guava and the Guinea grass. Well, thank you Leslie, let's go brooksie set to show up and Susan Cordell thank you, sciences Susan. And let me let me also say that I do want to have a further discussion with you at some point about the science you talked about about creating an environment that all works together. It's beautiful. Thank you so much the two of you and thank you to Rebecca and Aloha you guys I hope we do this again. Thank you so much. Thank you again.