 So, I was interested in how you found the young people to participate in the study. And I was also interested in, if I understand it correctly, that these young people were not that young. It looked like the youngest was 18, where I was thinking when you were talking YA that the youngest would be 12 or 13, 14, something like that. And I was interested in how you found that young cohort, but it doesn't seem to be there. Yeah, there's two populations. They're my population of the MLIS students who are really a sample of convenience. They were older, they were 18 through 35, right? Anthony worked with teens. So, Anthony, how did you find them? I would speak freely, but I think this is, Mark, this is being recorded, so we want to, yeah, okay. Asking about the methodological issues is kind of a sore spot for me. It's important to ask it. It's important as part of the study. It's important to the credibility of our claims. Our university, like all universities, require an institutional review board before you are able to even go out and ask anybody anything. I have huge ideological conflicts with some of those assumptions that are built in because it prevents us, particularly those of us studying youth, from getting access to the subjects of our studies. As a consequence of the barriers that we had to work around, and we did some kind of fast and loose steps to get around some of those things. The young people that participated in our surveys and in the people, the young people who took the videos were selected by the librarians. So there's a, you might refer to that as a bias, but that, we're clear about that in our writing, that the librarians selected people who were young, teenagers, were in the library already, the librarians probably already knew them, so there is some of that. So when we talk about, for example, evaluating the separation between what the young people expressed and what the librarians expressed, they're probably much further apart in reality than what we found. Much, we found some separation as it was, but we were limited by our own institutional methodological issues. Thank you. Hi, same population, the teenage young teens. I'm curious if you have any data that is highlighting what teens are going to the library to actually do in terms of the services that they're seeking. I love all the information about different postural choices that they can make, but what are they hoping to get from the services at the library? Totally different question, totally outside of our ballpark. Not, nothing. We're focused on the space, period. So not what they're doing in the space. Not necessarily. I mean, some of them in the videos told us what people like to do, what they don't like to do, and do this over here, do that over there, but that wasn't the main focus of our study. So I can't really comment beyond that. I mean, I can free, and I mean, that's my area of expertise, but it wouldn't be very satisfying. Free handing are what teens are doing in the space. Yeah, but it wouldn't be very data-based. Well, I'd get to the microphone over there. Talk about the multiple seats, multiple butts in a seat. What do you want to know about them? It's part of our own professional ritual. When you have young people and there's two people to a seat, inevitably someone from the staff or a security person is going to come over and say, one by two a seat. Based on what, I have no idea. In the 350 libraries that you got responses from, how many were urban? Were there representative of a variety of languages, a variety of cultural areas? Good, another methodological question. It's interesting to get these methodological questions, because when I make presentations in front of lots of professional audiences, that's the thing they want to hear the least about. They don't want to hear about the statistics. They don't want to hear about what you did. We just want to hear about what you found, or what you say you found. We have not done a social statistical analysis of where those libraries came back from. I can tell you though that in the whole population of new and renovated libraries between 2005 and 2010, almost, well not almost, but many, many of them are in suburban areas, which is again contradictory to the way our cities are now growing back, right? So there's a disconnect between that, but I couldn't tell you specifically about that. But I'm very interested that you're interested in the methodological questions. I'm surprised at that. I work in a high school library. I'm wondering if your study would suggest anything about how young people value study carols. So you didn't like the information trough concept? Well, I'm not saying I'm for it. We have some. They get used a lot, but I'm wondering if that's just because. School libraries are very different environment. We didn't do that. But I can tell you that the wider variety, the better. So if you can have some of this and some of that and some of this, you're going to hit, you're going to hit homers a lot more than you won't. But I couldn't tell beyond that. The postural choices, we're reading a lot right now about the benefits of standing while working. So I'm looking forward to using adult spaces. That's great. The postural choices is a whole other realm of good stuff that we have to learn to bring into seating, not just in libraries, but in public seating everywhere. The height of the seat on BART, these seats, there's no choice here except then you go to the back of the room and you can stand up. And actually here, there is a little ledge back there. But in most venues like this, you have no choice. My question is for Jeremy. I also work in a high school library and I may be converting a large college library to a high school library. And so I was very interested in the two slides that you flew through, which were the results of what, I guess, your older audience thought were best for teens, but the actual practical things that they were looking for in a teen space. Okay, put that up. Can you read those, or do you want the... Can you read those? Yeah, refurbishing of wall ceilings and flooring, more tools for media production. So this is by age. This is ordered by preference for the 36 to 55 year olds, the older people. And they disagree on things like a more exhibit space for youth produced. Okay. And we will be having all these slides up on the bay net site in a couple of weeks or less. So the big difference, people who were younger at 36 to 50 cloth or older, they were less interested in enhanced seating options at a 50% rate. They were half as interested. And virtual, visual merchandising, people who were older weren't interested in virtual visual merchandising for the spaces. So that sort of thing. So that would be interesting to you if we broke that out and made it more clear. Yeah. Another question? No, no, no. I have a question about, do you have any examples of teen centers and public libraries that are really awesome, like that are working and people are really excited about? So people can go look or check it out. Depends on which people you're talking about being excited, young people or librarians or library school students? Okay. Well, that's hard. That's hard. And again, this goes back to the methodological handcuffs that we are suffering with. We're not permitted to go out and just ask young people even unbelievably, voluntary, online, you can opt out at any point you want, taking it, taking the survey in a library about library stuff and our institutional review board would not permit that without jumping huge walls. So, and I wanna be explicit about what we are permitted to do and what we were not permitted to do. It's terrible. So I can't really give you lots of that, but the results that we're reporting out should be telling us something. You know, the stuff that I was just reporting on and our articles are going into much more detail of course about the rate at which young people reported back to the extent that they did. So there's some of that to learn. I've also published a book, an edited collection of young adult spaces that were profiled in VOIA, Voice of Youth Advocates. And I look back over the 10 years of those to take some patterns and what's popular, what's not popular. So those are some of the things that are out there. I wanted to suggest as I was explicit about today that seating is the most important thing. When we're talking about if you have one thing to do, focus on your seating options. And the more variety you put into that space, the more successful it will be. That's about as far as I can go today, but the other material is in more detail in our writing. I wanna also make sure that we're clear that there are three real populations that are part of this study. One of them is the librarian serving in new and renovated buildings. A second is some of the young people that were able to take the surveys and take videos for us. And the third is the population Jeremy's working with, we're our own library school students. So graduate students in a library school program, those three different populations. We have different scope and depth of data on each one of those populations. Given the logistical handcuffs, are there any ways you can get at the kids who are not coming to the libraries and find out why not? There you go. Good question, excellent question. We want that, but we can only go as far as we can go. And I think we did pretty well and we're gonna continue to do very well with what we have. You reported the various numbers of, on the separation of space, that a smaller number of the teens wanted separated space. What's the chance that a whole lot of them were saying that just because they wanted the chance to bug adults? I'm not sure I get the question mark. I certainly don't understand. I certainly don't like the implication, but. Well, actually I should say that it was just moments later that you answered that question with the way that teens are coming with their younger sibling to the libraries. In some cases. So I've been at conferences where people talk about spaces all the time based on whatever they feel that day and they almost always say that young people don't wanna be close to kids. They wanna be on their own separate. And you have no evidence for saying that. And our evidence is suggesting that it depends. In some cases, in very expensive, wealthy suburban communities where all the kids have their own bedrooms or their own wings of a house or whatever. Yeah, their expectations are gonna be that they want their own space. But in densely populated areas in cities like San Francisco and others where families live tighter together, kids share spaces and bedrooms and dwellings are smaller. The expectation isn't there. It's not such a big deal. Yes, I don't have questions. I actually got three comments. First of all, I think it's great you're doing more evidence based design. I work as a librarian in an architectural field and this is what we desperately need because architects are not researchers and they don't have the evidence that shows whatever the designs that are proposing will in fact work out as intended. So that's great. My second thing is related to what people said they wanted in the space and what was not mentioned at all, which was shocking to me, was nothing about lighting or access to the outdoors. I mean, the first thing I noticed in that teen space was the window. And for architects these days, allowing as much natural light into a space is critical. And I don't think people were even aware of it because they didn't comment on that. But that's from an architectural perspective, that's huge access to natural light. And I forgot, oh, the third one about the lounge seating. If you go to Twitter or to Google, any of these companies, they all have that kind of seating now. Informal seating all over the offices for informal meetings and such. So there's a lot of great seating options out there. You can buy, you know, you can buy four teen spaces. It's very common of various heights, shapes, very modular in design. So that's it. Let me comment on your first item. What architects know and what they don't know. Partly they've been able to get away with designing libraries for us because we haven't stepped up and challenged them and informed what we need from them. That's part of it. And under the best circumstances in terms of young adult spaces, you'll have a library saying that they want a youth component. So you have librarians who don't know very much about architecture and most of the time not very much about young people to tell you the truth. Teenagers who don't know squat about libraries and know nothing about architecture. And then architects who don't know anything about teenagers and very little about libraries. And you put them all together and what do you expect? So I refer to that as a triangle of incompetence. Or at very least a triangle of convention because what you're gonna get back in terms of a wide space is not gonna look very different from the rest of the library. And that is a killer. In terms of lighting, you're right about that. Lighting is something that has emerged a little more recently in our work and it'll have a higher profile than what we report out in the future. Getting from the macro to the micro, if you are working with an individual project and some of this depends on how fluent one is in using second life to illustrate things. More typically, in my experience, you're doing it with a new sheet and colored crayons and stuff like that on an easel with a captive representation of the clients of the library that your project is. How easy is it to use second life to get input and illustrate the concepts that are being discussed compared to, and effective, is it, do you think, compared to a typical new sheet and easel representation? So if you brought in four or five teens, put up an easel, show them a prospective site, got their feedback in some sort of a focus group. Yeah, it should read, is what I'm thinking of. Design should read, that's easy, a lot easier. It is, but it is easier, but is it as effective? I think if you wanted to do things that were A, B, and statistical and numerical, I think this is a possible option. It's difficult, those spaces took 50, 100 hours to rebuild out of video with specialized people doing it. So yeah, there's a steep cost. Just a brief question, you mentioned, Jeremy, the disadvantage of using Minecraft as a tool, and I was curious if you had anything more to say about that because I've been thinking about asking our younger teens to sort of share some of their design ideas using Minecraft. I think that's a great idea. Talk about less expensive. I mean, you could have them in there, yeah. Minecraft is evolving as a viable tool? I don't think it's evolving as an architectural tool for doing a charrette. I don't think it'll ever do that, but if you had a group of 10, 12, 15 year olds in who wanted to come in and throw ideas off of each other and interact in the space, I think that's a great idea. Be very innovative, yeah. Wow, or ask them to help you do that representation that you're trying to try out when you don't have the skill set yourself. Yeah, yeah. Hi, I was wondering if some or many of your examples are used as multi-purpose rooms. My school, for example, is used as a library and a meeting room, like board meetings and so, and if so, how do you work around those different settings? Like the board meeting, people want square tables, chairs, sitting around, and those tables and chairs have to stay there for the rest of the time when kids use them and could have a different sitting arrangement. That's a great question, I have two comments on that. First of all, that's a job for your designers and your architects. Put that problem before them and tell them to solve it for you or to address it. That's their job, that's what they get paid for, that's what your users need, that's what your use is, requires, that's their job. The second thing is, in terms of what we pulled in terms of the young people experiences we got back, they are very willing to share space with other users and other purposes. If their space is clearly functional for them, you can't have a wood table and chairs and a space and say, oh, here's your teen space, because that's not genuine. If the space is designed for them, with them and it's successful with them, as well as having this other layer of use, either before or library hours for staff experience of meetings or for after hours kinds of activities that adults need, that's okay, they're willing to share as long as they don't get erased. That's been the reading very strong from them and I've seen it over and over again. But usually they have to suffer the liabilities because it's a space that's really for everybody else but then we put young people in it. That doesn't. I think we better make this be our last formal question. Hello, my name's John. It's a question really for both Anthony and Jeremy. I'm interested, what are the acoustic implications of different architectural spaces in seating? Is that, for example, can that be done in second life, adding an acoustic profile in addition to the visual that could be evaluated? And secondly, what are the preferences of different stakeholders, different age groups and also librarians and how that factors in to evaluating spaces, thanks. That brings up sort of next generation technology and I'm really interested to see what the Oculus Rift and sort of wearables bring to the table. As far as acoustics, I have no experience with that, I can't answer you that, but I would look for that. That acoustic term is sort of like a third rail for a lot of these discussions. One of the things that I have found useful in advocating for separate purpose-built spaces for young people is that it takes the acoustical competition out of the situation. Whenever young people, whenever young people are in competition with anybody else's comfort, use whatever they lose, every time, every time. So the importance of acoustical separation is important. Seating can play a role in that. Other things that architects call implied barriers can do that, curtains, a whole variety of other things. But I'll tell you that this survey that we got back from these 350 libraries was very clear that when young people were involved in the process and libraries respected what they wanted, they were able to institute situations where the competition was greatly reduced and the behavioral issue rules were completely reduced as were, what was the other factor? Line of sight. Acoustics and line of sight are the two things you're gonna get out of librarians when you first talk about young people in space and yet when it's done equitably, those concerns drop to the floor. Drop to the floor. It's hard to believe and librarians will not believe it no matter how many times I say it, no matter how many, hundreds of people have reported that. They still won't believe it, but that's what they're telling us. So you can take that for what it's worth. I wanna conclude though by suggesting that the kind of questions that we ask, the kind of procedures that we engaged in terms of our users are not too different from the ones that we should be using throughout the entire institution. The last time you may have been in a haunted house and you walked on a squeaky, squeaky floor and you thought you were taking a step onto a firm piece of floor and your foot went through it, that's sort of the experience I felt in engaging the literature of this topic of spatial design and evaluation. Every time I put my foot down thinking that we were going to land, that foot was gonna land on something solid, it went through the floor. We don't know anything really about what our clients need, really even very much about how we operate in space. And it's a fabulous topic. It's one that we can all engage in. The data is all around us. And I think that we should be using it a lot more effectively and with a lot more robust analysis to help us design buildings. And I encourage you to do it. It's fun and your users will appreciate it. Thank you very much.