 Aloha, everyone, and welcome to Hawaii Together on the Think Tech Hawaii Broadcast Network. I'm Kilii Akina, your host and president of the Grassroot Institute of Hawaii. Whether you live in Hawaii or anywhere else in the world, you're aware of the tragic wildfires that have taken place on the island of Maui recently and the devastation of the town of Lahaina. In our office at the Grassroot Institute, we are still reeling from what has taken place as we have many friends and colleagues who live on the island of Maui where we do more work than any other island than Anahu. Please know our hearts go out to all of you on Maui who were affected by this and all who have friends and relatives who have been impacted. We're at a time now where much is taking place. There are plans underway to restore Maui, to rebuild Maui. That's a big discussion now. There are many stakeholders and voices in that, and at the Grassroot Institute, we are in a posture of listening. Well, we want to hear from those who have Maui and Lahaina in their hearts, and we also want to hear from experts who can offer solutions as we move forward into the future. Rebuilding will definitely not be an easy task, nor can it be completed quickly. The area we know must be cleaned of toxic debris and the community have the time to go through the human cycle of grief and coming to terms with what has taken place and being a part in determining what happens next. There are steps definitely that state and county lawmakers can take right now to support Maui residents. And one of the important and urgent tasks is to find temporary shelter and prepare for rebuilding efforts. To talk about that, I have the gentleman joining me who spent his youth in Lahaina and is now a permanent resident on the island of Maui. More than that, he has been involved in bringing solutions to Hawaii with regard to housing. His name is Ray Ray Michaels, and he's the president of Maui Plumbing, very knowledgeable about the skilled trains and the building industry. I'd like to welcome him to the show now. Ray, thank you for joining us today. I appreciate that you were willing to spend time with us during this difficult crisis. Well, thank you, Dr. Keena. It's a pleasure to be here and talk with you. And, you know, before we begin, I just have to say thank you for all the work that Brass Root Institute has done bringing accountability and transparency to our local government and for all of the learning seminars that you put on, you know, on Maui on O'Wafua. Every time I go, I always learn a lot of new things. So I really appreciate what you guys are doing for our community. Ray, I don't want to catch you off guard, but I do want our viewers to know that you're very personally connected to what has happened on Maui, and your family has actually suffered during the recent tragedy. Would you mind just sharing a little bit about your background with the city, with the town of Lahaina, as you grew up, and how perhaps your family was impacted recently? Sure. So I've been on, I'm 38 years old. I was born in 1985. I've been on Maui since 86. My father originally lived on O'Wafua prior to then. And so Lahaina spent my youth living in the town of Lahaina. And it's hard to put into words. One of the things I tell people is like, I don't think I've ever felt this heartbroken because not only are you seeing the loss of our family home, where we grew up, and my father losing his home, but it transcends that. It's our entire community that's suffered such a great loss. And my family's been fortunate enough not to suffer any loss of life. We feel very blessed in that. And my father was able to leave Lahaina about an hour before his neighborhood was involved in flames. And I feel so thankful he made that right choice. But speaking to that, it's just affected so many friends and family and loved ones in such a tragic way that because of that, I think, again, this is the most sad and I can remember being in a long time. But I do take solace in how much support Lahaina has received and how much the community has come together. And I've reconnected with old friends and even made some new ones during this process. So I just want to say thank you to everybody on Maui and Hawaii and even the world and the support that's been received. Everybody feels grateful and blessed in that. Thank you, Ray. Our heart to go out to you and your family and as well as to all the residents on the island of Maui who suffered in this tragic event. As we talk now, though, we want to look toward the future and you're playing a part in the rebuilding of Maui. You've got some ideas as to what the state and the county could do to aid in Maui's recovery efforts. First, let's talk a bit about providing housing for Maui residents who've been displaced by the fire. I would think that that would be first and foremost of the concerns trying to meet that immediate need. What are your ideas here? I'm working with a couple of different organizations right now. I'm helping the Maui Family Life Center here on Maui. They were being given or donated some continuous pots from Hungary that were flown in on C-17s. These are flat-packed 20 by 10 containers that fold up into a livable unit. You can actually add multiple of these together to create larger living spaces. While they don't come with kitchens and baths, we find that it's going to be very important so that people feel comfortable in this facility that we're calling village that they have their own private kitchen and bath facilities because what this is really aimed towards is families who are displaced with children under five. After those, that group is taken care of. We're going to move to Kapuna and then after that, it's going to be families with children over five. What we are working on right now is what we call modular kitchen and bath pots that can be added on to these units. It gives families their own kitchen and bathroom space on that unit so that when your child, it wakes up in the middle of the night, they don't have to go to a community bathroom. They have their own private bathroom that people feel safe in. That's what we call our intermediate housing goal is making sure that we get people out of communal shelters and into their own private accommodations. The hotels have been gracious and I know the government's working with hotels to provide that kind of short term housing, but we know that those funds aren't going to last forever. It's important that we figure out some intermediate housing goals and I think Hope Village is going to be a good example of what can be done in a short period of time. No, Ray, Governor Green recently announced that prefabricated manufactured homes will play a part in the temporary housing. What do you know of his intentions here and what is your reaction to his announcement? I'm not completely clear on his intentions, but I really applaud this announcement. The construction industry was going to have to move towards the industrialization, we call it, or prefabrication of its processes, because we have such a deep skilled trades deficit. This was going to happen at a necessity rather than being through my policy. It's interesting if you look at places like the UK or Singapore or even Germany where there's a ton of support for prefabrication, they've been able to mitigate housing crisis similar to the one that we're seeing here in Hawaii and in many parts of the country. Looking at studies from these countries, we've been able to increase productivity in construction by about 20%, whereas in the US, productivity constructions remain flat and even decreased in some sectors. Dr. Keene, I think it's important here to clarify what we mean by prefab. It sometimes has a negative connotation attached to it. People think of it as generic gentrified buildings, but prefabrication is just one element of what's known as DFMA. DFMA stands for Design for Manufacturing Assembly. This is a design that starts with designers like architects and engineers that involves designing homes for the ease of manufacturing offsite and assembly onsite. What DFMA is concerned with is promoting standardization from what's called product design, productization of elements in a building, reducing costs, minimizing complexity, and leveraging repeatable processes. Construction is interesting because we're really manufacturing, but we only manufacture the prototype one time. We don't really take advantage of economies of scale as manufacturing does. I'm really relieved and glad to see that leaders in government are taking a look at prefabrication and seeing it as a solution to our housing problem and to this crisis. Now, what are some of the steps, Ray, that you feel the state or county need to take in order to facilitate building and bringing in prefab homes? There have been some challenges to that, and at this time, we definitely need to be able to overcome them. Being more encouragement and support to our local industry, what we don't want is we don't want those jobs leaving our state. We don't want to bring in prefabricated homes from the mainland or another country. We want to retain that workforce here. Countries like Singapore and the UK and Germany that predicted that our construction industry would be aging and that young people would be reluctant to join the industry created government housing regulatory boards that helped educate their construction industry and encouraged the use of DFMA in the construction process by providing studies and the means and methods for prefabricated volumetric construction. We're really going to need to revamp and retool our entire industry in a very short, compressed period of time in terms of both the means and methods of how we build things and the tools involved to do so. I mean, we're talking about building out factories to do things like prefabricated wall panels. So providing grants or incentives to companies that utilize DFMA or building efforts would be a big help to jump start this transition because it's going to be costly for the private sector to basically change the way we've been building for the last 50 years. So any resources government can provide the private sector would be a big help in easing the pain of that transition and getting it that fast. You mentioned not wanting to lose jobs to the mainland and when it comes to actually building and installing prefab work, we need to have a trained workforce. None of it can take place unless there are the workers to put up the houses. Can you tell us Ray, what's the state of the skilled trades workforce on Maui and in Hawaii in general? Well, I can speak to the skilled trades workforce in general and a bit in Hawaii specifically. The construction industry has some of the worst demographics. There's been a lack of vocational training in high schools. There's not any universally available and standardized trade programs and there's been an emphasis over the last three generations over a college education, over a skilled trade, which compounded the workforce shortage issue we're seeing across all industry as baby boomers move into retirement. Looking at Hawaii's demographic from the Department of Labor, 25% of our workforce in construction are baby boomers and their median age is 68, but the average age for retirement in construction is actually 61. Forbes did a report about three years ago and found that 40% of the construction workforce is due to retire this decade. On top of that, there is a group called ACE Mentoring. ACE Mentoring is architecture, construction engineering and they provide mentoring for those entering the field of construction. And they did a study and found that for every seven people retiring in the industry, only one is coming in. And so that's a huge deficit in an industry that has to actually build more homes than ever in a shorter period of time. What are some state laws or changes in our state law that could actually help ease the shortage we have in terms of workers? I know that other states do things a little bit differently. For example, recently I learned that North Dakota allows as many as three apprentices per adjournment. And when we look at these kinds of practices elsewhere, what could be imported to Hawaii and how could we change our laws to help increase the supply of workers? Ratio laws are a big one. Many trades are subject to ratio laws and I can speak specifically to plumbers and electricians. We have a one-to-one ratio law where we're only allowed one apprentice for every one journey worker. And it's counterproductive to growing the industry when you have seven people retiring and only one coming in. We won't be able to keep up with the retirement acceleration. So changing those laws is going to be necessary. I'm conflicted about ratio laws. I get the intent, especially with plumbers and electricians, to protect the health of the community. You don't want subpar work being installed. However, that's the contractor's liability. All our work does get inspected by county inspectors. So I kind of find it a bit of a point to have ratio laws. And as well, and I can't emphasize in doubt, vocational training in high school starting there and using those hours earned in those classes towards your apprenticeship because most apprentices in Hawaii before they become licensed, it's a 10,000-hour experience verification. And some of those hours can come from class work. So if the state could help waive ratio laws or adjust them drastically and help to provide vocational training in high schools that are accredited with the Department of Labor so that those hours that those students spend in that classroom goes towards their apprenticeship. And we can start with just basically a core curriculum, which is what all apprentices start with no matter what trade you're in. And it's the basics of how to read a tape measure, how to cut materials, how to use power tools and hand tools safely, why it's important to wear your protective equipment. And that gives our younger kids a good start in the trade program and will help jumpstart their career in field trades. Well, Ray, at the Grassroots Institute, we understand the value of occupational licensing laws, but are also concerned and our research has shown this that in Hawaii, they often interfere with the supply of workers in many fields. When it comes to getting a license as a plumber or as a carpenter, how long does it take? So, you know, from beginning to end, it's about a five-year program. Now, once you've completed that five-year program, you can apply for a license. You know, I think what would really help is reciprocal licensure. And Hawaii is not a true reciprocate where what they say is for plumbers, for example, Hawaii follows the Uniform Plumbing Code. There are a few different variations of this code and some states elect to adopt their own version of it that's sometimes more stringent. But Hawaii won't allow for that experience to count unless they've worked under that same code, which I don't really see a good reason for because there's not huge variations in the code that would affect the health of our community. If you had somebody, let's say from Wisconsin, who had three years of experience as an apprentice and moved here, and you know, those hours should count, but Wisconsin works under the Wisconsin Plumbing Code, which is similar to UPC. But there will be no instance where somebody who worked under a different code comes here, will install subpar work or work that is, you know, not that will affect the health of our community. It simply won't count. It's very minute differences in the code as far as plumbing goes. And, you know, that's why you have inspectors and supervisors to make sure that things are being done to the Uniform Plumbing Code. So I think providing true reciprocity in the terms of experience work, and, you know, under the different types of codes, whether that's the International Plumbing Code that 13 states observe or the Uniform Plumbing Code or each state's individual plumbing code. And that's true for all, for all different skilled trades. And electricians, you know, are another one that had different code variations throughout the U.S. But, you know, none of those variations would have a huge effect on the quality of workmanship, you know, that gets put in. During this past legislative session, Grassroot joined with many other parties to work on interstate licensure for doctors and bringing Hawaii into the compact that exists for over 40 states. Now that that has been passed into law, we will be able to see an increase in the supply of doctors because of the recognition of mainland licenses. Did you think a similar kind of law or reciprocal arrangement will increase the supply of plumbers and building industry tradesmen as well as... Well, basically, will it increase the supply? Yeah, I think it will definitely help. You know, we're kind of, you know, weird, you know, between a rock and a hard place, right? We do need additional skilled craft workers, but we don't have the housing to house them. What we really need is supervisors, people with, you know, over five years' experience, 10 years' experience that can supervise a crew of apprentices. And those apprentices, you know, come from our local schools. There are local residents. So if, you know, I feel like it's, we need both, right? We need licensed reciprocity, but we need vocational training so that we can bring in, you know, people with good amounts and experience for our rebuilding efforts and our housing building efforts that can help trade and supervise, you know, our workforce here in the islands. Are there any lessons? I don't know how closely you were following the Medical Licensure Act, but are there any lessons we can learn from that and apply to the trades we've been talking about today? You know, I wish I could comment on that. I didn't follow it too closely, but when I heard about it, I'm like, that's exactly what we need for our construction workforce. We need something very similar. As you mentioned, the economy itself is a huge factor in being able to attract and retain workers here at Hawaii. They need places to live, of course, themselves. They need to be able to live off this economy and so forth. Do you think that's a big part in our not being able to see a growing interest of young people in going into the building trades? I'm not, I'm not totally sure. I mean, as far as the economy is concerned, maybe you can help rephrase the question a little bit. Well, it's difficult for anyone to make a living here in Hawaii today, and housing is one of the biggest barriers, being able to afford not only to buy, but even to rent and so forth. So a lot of young people and mid-career people have decided to move away from Hawaii. Do you encounter this a lot in terms of our supply of people in the building industry? Absolutely. We've had a number of people have left our company. I'm just speaking personally, but I know other companies experience the same thing is this people leaving or not being able to make it here does certainly affect the supply of skilled workers. I mean, if you are a licensed plumber, you can make the same money somewhere like, let's say, Las Vegas or Washington or Oregon, where it's still a lot cheaper to live. And so you have a better quality of life. So certainly that plays into an overall role. And I just think Hawaii's level of personal and economic freedom really affects people's decisions to stay here. I read studies from the Cato Institute and from the Fraser Institute. We always rank 49th or 50th in terms of economic and personal freedom. You're a skilled craft worker and you can go to a state that maybe has less regulation on things, so the cost of living is cheaper. That's a pretty easy decision to make, especially if you're someone from the island whose house just burned down. So our government leaders need to take a hard look at that. And why is it that people have such a hard time making it here? Providing more economic freedom, lowering those barriers to entry into the entrepreneurial marketplace I think is going to be key to retaining our population. I think you've hit the nail on the head. We can't treat the shortage of workers in the building trades and plumbing in particular simply as an isolated problem. It's part of the complex of the entire economy here, and we have to be working for solutions to that as well. And in particular, as our governor noted in his emergency housing decree recently, regulation by government really needs to be cut down in order to solve this problem of the shortage we have in housing. I want to go back to a very particular item. There have got to be solutions that are quick and easy. One I want to ask you about is accessory dwelling units. Could they play a part in providing the needed housing at this time? Absolutely. I think ADUs play a important role in providing housing to those that were displaced because of fire. A number of companies and foundations are working on prefabricated ADUs that can be placed on existing properties where space is available. And say you were displaced by the fire and you have an uncle or a cousin or a friend that has a property and they have space on it. So I think people would be much more willing to stay and much more comfortable if they lived in an ADU on their friend's property or their uncle's or aunt's property rather than a stranger or in a shelter village. So it's a solution that I think addresses both the immediate needs for people who have been displaced and also adds to the existing permanent housing stock. So addresses our long-term housing goals as well. So yeah, ADUs are going to be key to solving the problem. What are some things we would need to do to give greater access to the building of ADUs? That's complicated. I am working with David Sellers from Hawaii Operative. He is very akamai when it comes to the barriers to building more ADUs. Obviously there's the permitting barrier that we're all very well aware of. But there's regulation barriers. There's building setbacks, easements. The existing buildings are maybe not performing or maybe they were placed improperly. Access to the area. We were going to place a prefabricated ADU. Can we get to the backyard? Is it accessible? There's a parking issue. If you add an ADU, you have to make a parking spot. Electrical service to the area, cesspools are a big one. If you have a property, perhaps you have some room for an ADU, but you're on a cesspool, well that will need to be upgraded to a septic system. I think the county can help take on existing infrastructure upgrades. A lot of the times when you add an ADU, the county is requiring you to do a clean out or your sewer line or put in a back flow preventer for your water service or upgrade your water meter or relocate your water meter or relocate where your water line runs because perhaps it's on an easement. A lot of the times there's no accurate ask builds of where the sewer system is or perhaps the water line in the street needs to be upgraded or the electrical service going to the home is only 100 apps, but really to add an ADU you need a 200 service. Helping with infrastructure upgrades, if the county could do that, that would be a big help and as well as permitting. I think that with these ADUs for this particular situation, the industry should be allowed to proceed without a permit so long as the plans are stamped by an architect and it's built by licensed contractors. I think architects are allowed and provisional plan review waiver per year for certain situations and I think that certainly needs to be increased to ADUs that are for people that have been displaced by the fire. It shouldn't need to go through plan review so long as the plans are reviewed stamped by an architect and the work is done by licensed contractors. It kind of mitigates the ability on that. Sure. There's a number of things that can be done. With Ray, that was a very enlightened response and we're going to have to end there with your suggestion of by right design, which is a very important way of solving the problems that you raise. Thank you so much for sharing your insight today. You've got a lot to say that I hope our public officials will listen to and thanks for your commitment out there at Maui to the rebuilding. Much love. Thank you, Ray, for being with us. Thank you, Dr. Keen. I appreciate being on the show. My guest today, Ray Michaels, is president of the Maui Plumbing and I want to thank him for being on the program and remind you that we do broadcast Think Tech, Hawaii together every two weeks and that's when I'll see you again. I'm Keely Akina at the Grafford Institute on behalf of Think Tech, Hawaii, aloha.