 So this is a 1970 American Airlines Astrojet comic. Tom existed before the 70s. I didn't. No, I didn't. I was less than six months old when I flew and got this. We went to Florida, too. Did you see the world or just go to sea world? We went to Pensacola. We didn't go to Disney. I don't know. Did Disney World exist in 1970? Oh, no. Disneyland just existed five years prior. But we went to Florida, not California. I have never been to. But Florida's where they shot Flipper. That's an odd thing to do. That's what Florida's done before. At the time they had a bunch of sea parks. Not a sea world. They had like oceanariums. That was the big thing in the 60s. 60s was oceanariums. I know this because it used to be super big in the whales. When I was a kid, I was going to be like a whale doctor. I was going to be a marine biologist because it was so cool. Then I grew out of it. This is a guy that's just another whale. Scott Johnson, Bob Gaster at Frog Pan Studios. Peter Wells, writer for the City Morning Herald. Is that how you want to be introduced? Yeah, yeah. Perfect. I'm hungover. We don't have to point that out. I don't know how the rest of the team... I was with a bunch of journalists that I don't normally hang out with. At about one in the morning, I thought, wow, I need to go home. I just kind of wandered off. So they all freaked out that I thought I was dead. I did make it back to the... Is that called an Australian exit at that point? Apparently it's a smoke bomb. Oh, really? I hadn't heard that before. Yeah, and I thought, what, was that a drink that we had? That sounds really bad. But anyway, they continue to drink on for another four hours because they're professional journalists and they can do that. Right. No, that's the fine journalistic tradition. Indeed. Lots of cigarettes. Well, let's get rolling here. You guys ready? Here we go. Daily Tech News Show is powered by its audience, not outside organizations. For more, head to DailyTechNewsShow.com slash support. This is the Daily Tech News for Wednesday, July 3rd, 2016. I'm Tom Merritt. I emphasize daily, Scott, so people know that we do it every day. Yeah, no, you need to. It's one of the defining characteristics of this fine technology program. Although some pedants will point out that we don't do it on Saturday. But by golly, some weeks we do it on Sunday. Thanks to Peter Wells, writer for the Sydney Morning Herald and host of Day 6, DTNS that comes out every other week. How are you doing, Peter Wells? I'm very, very well, Tom. How are you doing? I am doing just fine. You're in our continent, I hear. I am, yeah. I'm on the wrong side of the planet. I'm in New York City for the Samsung Note launch, so that was fun. We'll get a brief... If you had to sum it up in a sentence, what is your impression of the Samsung Galaxy Note 7? The Coral one is absolutely gorgeous. Yeah, I'm not convinced on the Iris scan so far, but yeah, just a gorgeous looking phone. Yeah, I mean, it's a nice gimmick. Yeah, I found the thumbprint reader still is much faster than the Iris. You kind of have to deliberately look at it to unlock the phone, which just feels a bit wonky. Do you think it's just a matter of time, though, before that Iris scan stuff just comes into its own and it's nice to see somebody making a first attempt on a consumer level like this? Yeah, actually, if you do compare it to probably the first generation of those thumbprint readers that we had in phones, they were a little bit clutchy as well. They were a little bit slow and now they're just instant. So yeah, it would be great to be able to, say, drive around and look at the phone and know that it would immediately open up. Well, we are going to talk about some more news that has happened since that Tuesday unveiling. Starting today, customers can get the Windows 10 anniversary update if you want. Lyft has hit an all-time high of 13.9 million rides in July, according to a leaked investor letter. And now, Scott Johnson, here are some more pop stories. Facebook is telling the world about its new 22,000 square foot lab in Menlo Park, California. They're like, hey guys, we have a lot of money so we built a 22,000 square foot lab. It's not quite fully operational, but we want a bunch of journalists to come in and ride about it because guess what? We called it Area 404. Which would be funnier if they weren't showing it to everyone. Yeah. Also, I just don't like the idea that it's 404. It's got too much, there's too much bad memories with that number on the internet. Your research is not found? I don't know. I don't know if that works. Anyway, the lab is actually very impressive. It does fast prototyping and modeling of hardware. It'll be used by Facebook's data center operations. It's building a Skunkworks team. The Facebook Connectivity Lab. Those are the folks working on drones that broadcast internet connections by lasers. They're going to be able to take advantage of this. Of course, Oculus VR will be taking advantage of it. The lab is full of cutting edge machinery, milling machines, water jets, fabric cutters, metal folders, and electron microscope. It is Facebook taking on the mantle of IBM, Xerox PARC, and Bell Labs to me. Not only that, I just had this conversation earlier today. Funny enough with a friend of mine, Mark. We were talking about Facebook and how they seem to not be a company that can be stopped. Despite what hipster internet friends might say about how much they dislike Facebook, they continue to impress investors and break records. We're almost a 2 billion people and all this stuff. It occurred to me, part of the reason this is probably going well for them is stuff like this. This is a sign that they're interested in not just sitting around being a web company and providing a place for your grandma to visit and thinking that's just going to last forever. This is a company who's interested in seeing what else might be there, getting some of their smartest and brightest, and fast prototyping of hardware is certainly a part of that. I applaud them. If you're an investor in Facebook, this is one of the best signs you could get is that they are constantly cranking away. It does look like an aperture of science more than 404, though. You think it's an intelligence test for Facebook employees? I'm just saying those machines look terrifying in that really lovely clinical way. Yeah, they absolutely do. I think this is clear that Facebook has made the right move in saying we are not going to just be that web social network company. Like you said, Scott, on the other hand, Facebook's social network company is doing just fine. So Facebook being able to pour some money into research all what Google has done with its X-Labs is showing that, at least for now, Facebook's trajectory is still up and up. I agree. Dropbox launched Android and iOS versions of paper. Anybody who's listening to the show and remembers Waterworld, I might ask you if you've ever seen paper. Anyway, it's collaborative document editing software is what paper is. And the beta version of the service is now open to anyone, just even you and I. The apps let users see comments, reply, view notifications, and make small changes. The web version now has enhanced table features, improved photo galleries, and new notifications. Yeah, so this is their take on Google Docs. They're saying, hey, you're storing all your docs in Dropbox. Why not just edit it there as well? Many enterprises are taking advantage of this. Apparently some design companies have been using it because it allows you to quickly do some note-taking and highlighting and things like that. And that's what this is all about. These apps certainly don't let you do full editing, but they are going to be handy for people who have already been using Dropbox paper. I still unfortunately don't see the benefit in it. Dropbox integrates with Office 365, so I get full editing from them. And other documents that I have are in Google Docs, and I get the whole Google Docs editing experience. Peter, what's your take on this? Yeah, I'm in the exact same boat. I use Docs for anything outside of work, and for work I use Office 365. We've got an account. So I did try out the Dropbox app when it first... sorry, the Dropbox service when it first launched as a beta. And it's good, it's polished, but like I said, I just can't find a reason to use it. Well, the other thing I would worry about a little bit, and I don't like to normally point to past discretions from companies and say, well, there's a reason to not trust anything they do in the future. I'm actually a giant fan of Dropbox, but they tried to do something like this with Carousel and Image Management, and they were real gung-ho on that for a while and then just dropped it like a hot rock. And I don't necessarily blame them. That's a very competitive space with big players in it that pretty much ate their lunch, and there was really no reason to keep developing it or throwing money at it. This feels kind of like that to me, trying to sort of, I don't know, take on the way we use collaborative doc sharing is a risky piece of business. And I would more worry about the long-term viability. But I would say that most users of Dropbox use it for documents rather than photos anyway. So it makes more sense for them to at least go after the market that most people use for. But like you say, Tom, it's got the Office 365 integration already. So again, I just don't really see the need for it. And my majority use of Dropbox, and I think the reason that I like using Dropbox is because it integrates so nicely with the file system on Windows and OS X and Linux. So no matter where I am, I just see the files as files, but they sink across the platforms. That's what I want it for. That's what I'm willing to pay. What Dropbox is desperately trying to do is not be tied down to just that because they don't think they can make enough money off of it. And so they come up with these other efforts to lure me in and I'm like, I don't really need collaborative editing from Dropbox. If I'm on my desktop, I have word processors and things to edit with and I can share the links with other people. So they haven't yet struck me with one and I think it's a fair comment to say I don't know that I would try to go all in on a service like this if I was worried that Dropbox isn't going to continue to use it. Their smartest move, in my opinion, has been integration so well with other apps and other products. So other products have been able to tie into the API and use that stuff. I use notational velocity quite a bit on the desktop and I sync that with one writer on my phone and it's nearly a perfect marriage and only a perfect marriage because Dropbox exists. So I want them never to leave my life. I just don't know that me collaborating on actual editing of the documents through Dropbox is anything I even need. And I was actually going to say that that's what I would love them to make instead. A competitor to SimpleNote or Evernote because that's kind of what I need. Just SimpleNotes that maybe have a bit of text, maybe have a bit of links and pictures but just something really, really simple as a note-taking thing that I can have on all my devices. Speaking at the B-Side Security Conference in Las Vegas, FTC Chief Technologist Laurie Craner talked about how she changed the FTC's recommendations to change passwords often. If you're one of those people who don't like the fact that you're required to change your password every 60 or 90 days or you're an IT pro who's like this is not doing anything, it's just a hassle, she is on your side. She convinced the CIO and the CISO of the FTC to drop the policy by showing them studies that show that it turns out people choose weaker passwords when they're forced to change them regularly. A 2010 study from North Carolina Chapel Hill showed that if people change passwords every 90 days they use a transformation pattern that can easily be predicted by an algorithm and even with hashed passwords was susceptible to cracking because they were using shorter passwords in some cases. A study from Carlton University showed that frequent passwords hamper attackers only minimally. They just did a mathematical analysis and said, yeah, it doesn't really do much, it's not even much of a speed bump. And our Technicus Dan Gooden points out that both the National Institute of Standards in the United States and the UK CESG have concluded that mandated password changes are ineffective or even counterproductive. So the evidence is against you if you're pushing for a policy asking people to change passwords frequently. It has minimal to zero effect and in some cases can make the passwords easier to crack because people change the way they construct their passwords if they know they're going to have to change it regularly. Is it more of a frequency problem? Like every three months seems excessive and I agree with the findings of this but maybe once every year doesn't seem too crazy or... Once every year reduces the effectiveness the minimal effectiveness even more. At that point you're just hassling people for no good return. So what's the answer? Peter, I'd almost say we need better corporate level security services that work like one password but on something that's a little bit more enterprise related so that people have to worry about this anymore. IT can just change their crazy hashed up looking weird passwords every three months and make sure that the users get in and get out. Yeah, I've argued for an enterprise license for LastPass at the company that I work at. Yeah, I totally see this all the time. I could probably guess most people's passwords by finding out the name of their child and then adding a number based on when they started. So many people's passwords is just their child's name and then one for the very first time they use it and then they just add a number based every six months we get them to change their passwords. You can almost cut a password in half and look at the rings and see exactly when someone started. It's a little bit of a shame I do wish we had some kind of LastPass server but yeah, I think the new laptops with fingerprint readers and Microsoft Hello probably making this a little bit easier hopefully we can get to a point where people can have that crazy password and never know it exists and then just use their thumbprint or iris scan or whatever to get into their computer. Two-factor authentication. I mean that's what Google does. My wife has to choose a strong password and she has to use a YubiKey if she needs to authenticate and that is not the only thing that happens but that is the main protection. Not making people forget their passwords and changing passwords and all that sort of thing. I have two-factor authentication on Facebook, Twitter, Instagram everything that I can except my work exchange because we don't support it. Now I know several of you are going to write in and say let me explain why you need to change a password because a database leaks and if you change your password regularly that's an automatic prevention from that database that is leaked out there four years later being a problem for you and that's a fair response to that. Most of the studies have found that that case is so rare that it's not worth the hassle of getting people to create less secure passwords in the first place. Right. It's a value proposition that isn't exactly valuable on the other hand. The first 13 years this is my favorite story today by the way I spent an inordinate amount of time before my morning show this morning when I should have been prepping the morning show. I was looking at this so thanks internet. Anyway the first 13 years of the iconic gaming periodical Nintendo power is now available on archive.org not only that you can click on an issue and you just click a page and it turns like actually animates a turn they're super vintage super rad I used to have all these I don't have many more it's really cool the collection dates back as far as July 1998 or excuse me 88 that's the very first issue. You may remember it was like this little claymation looking Mario thing this goes all the way up through June 2001 covering a range of Nintendo products from Mario 2 through the Game Boy Advance the issues are available as PDFs, EPUB, Kindle and text files for those who hate fun by the way you can also just straight up look at them on the page and they work great so it's awesome I spent way too much time looking at these today archive.org man archive.org has tons of stuff like this they preserve old games they preserve old magazines this is just the latest and it seems like the internet's short-term memory is shown every time archive comes up with a new collection because everyone discovers archive.org suddenly I'm definitely going to have to download these before I buy that tiny little NES player that's coming out. I know because you'll need to get the tips again. It's perfect timing for that thing and not only I don't know when Nintendo stances on this sort of archival stuff they've often been real weird about let's plays on YouTube and things like that so I still have this question about whether Nintendo thinks it's cool for all of these old publications to be there at some point during the lifespan of that magazine it was spun out to another company who just ran it for them Future Media ran it here in the United States down in the Bay Area right so I just wonder if there's any rights concerned with them I really hope not Archive is the library of the internet so if they don't have a fair use right to something they go and they secure the right to say hey we're gonna we're nonprofit we're gonna do this and produce it so if they're showing this they have secured the rights to it and you can be reminded on a pretty regular issue basis just how bad some of the ads were for games in the late 80s early 90s it was a rough a rough period it's all there for you yeah go take a look enjoy MIT Computer Science and Artificial Intelligence Lab the CSAIL you'll see a C-sale sometimes put there a PhD student at there at there the MIT C-sale Abe Davis is publishing work this month demonstrating a technique for simulating the way objects respond to various forces called interactive dynamic video and no smarty it's not using 3d models you're like I that happens in my video game no 3d models you can do this kind of modeling with only five seconds of video all you need is video captured with a standard camera with enough movement of the object that you want to interact with so that its algorithm can analyze the vibrations of the movement of that object and predict how objects will move in new situations one demonstration they showed was a picture of a bush that was just kind of fluttering in the breeze and after it was analyzed you could reach in with your mouse grab it and it was like you were grabbing the bush it would act like the bush if you had actually grabbed it another one they did of course pandering to the crowd showed pokemon characters bouncing off of objects there was like a rubber slide out on a playground and they were able to just bounce the pokemons off and the slide would bounce up and down practical applications would include structural design or designing a bridge or something special effects in movies would be made easier by this and of course augmented reality yeah let's be honest the big money maker is going to be whatever the next pokemon go killer is and the fact that they take that stuff just a little bit further I'm not surprised at all they used pokemon as a way to demonstrate this stuff the only thing that surprised me about this particular bit of tech news and this technology in general AR in general is that we've had it since like iPhone 4 Galaxy S1 or 2 or whatever because we've had the ability to do augmented reality experiences with devices portably and it's taken until 2016 for something finally to be killer app status so that now everyone is talking about it it's easy to get cynical about that but man I'm so excited for whatever is next I think this is fantastic and I think it's easy to underestimate the importance of this it's no use to these graphical effects that happens in movies or even our own video games you're like oh look at the water effect how is this that much different it's way different because of the amount of work that doesn't need to go into it the fact that you can just do a few sections of a plant's leaves fluttering and then suddenly your virtual hand can swipe through the leaves and they'll move the way the leaves could I think it's fantastic and obviously has practical applications and structural dynamics my father-in-law is a CAD designer so this kind of thing could be incredibly helpful for him to see how materials are going to interact in the real world it's almost putting a graphical user interface on top of what is normally a coding a coding part of computing yeah it's also could be I mean what they're basically achieving with a very small layer of processing power is something that used to take a lot of work like a lot of work I'm thinking about film applications here like the ability to do motion capture of high motion or action in a film that's not going to require the same amount of sensors on the guy or the same amount of green screen work or whatever post-production you've got to put into it this starts to make you think about a lot of applications outside of that Pokemon made those leaves move imagine how revolutionary ray tracing was if anybody knows about ray tracing it was a way to just say I want light to bounce off that object there and you didn't have to code all of the light you would just tell it where the source was and what object you had and how reflective it was and suddenly you could make graphics that looked like they were in standard light this is sort of the modern-day equivalent of that where you're like hey instead of programming all of this physics we can make it happen with only 5 seconds of video of a real object in a weird way this is like the great-great-great-grandson of ray tracing yeah and you don't have to create the plant right? you can use a picture of a real plant so it's practical effects meets digital effects aka augmented reality there you go techtrunch passed along a story from I'm going to say this right because I put it in there phonetically for those wondering at home news about a test of an elevated person then you ruined it you could have just didn't think that you had like nailed it full disclosure that's what I'm all about news about a test of an elevated bus that travels over traffic in a port city 200 miles east of Beijing everyone kind of thought this was the craziest and some would say dumbest idea ever oh my gosh they made it a reality the transit elevated bus tested braking and power consumption in a brief test the electrical powered bus is 72 feet long 25 feet wide and straddles multiple lanes of traffic it is scary as hell so 300 passengers and travel up to 40 miles per hour and the idea is nobody else on the road in normal cars is being affected they are just driving underneath this essentially moving bridge in a lot of ways and it's something to behold you know obviously you're not going to be able to use this in places where road widths vary it's not like this thing shrinks for a more narrow passage than it does a larger one but in a city or cities that are just being developed especially in China rural China where you've got a big space there's a long way to go this could change commuting in a pretty interesting way I just want to be one of those little commuter car people that are underneath that I want to know how they how they orchestrate turns that's the biggest thing for me because if you're under that thing when it's time to turn obviously it can't block your turn or you're not going to be able to turn right turn left how does it turn right and left if it has cars underneath it there's some logistics to work out it's a kit by a truck at least once a month it's become famous now it's got its own Twitter account but what happens there I guess they've factored that in but when I first saw this story I totally thought it was an April Fool's so to see it rolling out and being tested is amazing Super cool I would drive that it's all electrical we don't know if it's autonomous I think it's driven by a person I guess it could be autonomous if it wanted it to that's neither here nor there it's some power dude with a big multilane bridge car it does have tracks need to be built in the road so it can't just drive on any road that's part of it not railroad tracks but like a divot that kind of guides it make sure that it doesn't swerve around and hit the cars driving underneath hey thanks to everybody who submitted stories in our subreddit dailytechnewshow.reddit.com the lazy one was in there today sp. Sheridan Kild who's our self titled janitor cleans up the spam skyboard 13 strike at rich one philip shane howl2z kv87 and au tiger fan plus many many others be one of them even just by voting at dailytechnewshow.reddit.com those are our top stories now youtube which my wife works for has a kids app that was for free but it had some advertising in it and now you can get rid of at least the pre-roll advertising youtube video creators can put advertisements in their actual youtube videos and youtube can't do much about that but those pre-rolls can go away because it is now bundled in with the youtube red program in australia new zealand and the united states that means if you're a youtube kids user you can upgrade to red it's 10 bucks a month here in the u.s. and remove ads from your kids videos you also get reds ability to save videos for offline viewing so if you get to where this is leading us does this make it more or less or in no way change your attractiveness to this peter i love youtube red except for the fact that i don't know i find youtube's google play music not that great at least in terms of i love the fact that you can upload your entire library i don't find it easy to find new stuff now see that's where you and i differ because my wife who works for youtube agrees with you she's unable to find music on there but i like it because i'm not really looking for that much new music i don't like the cartoony interface at the top there first you have to choose thursday morning and then do you feel energetic and all of that i find kind of annoying so i've actually just switched back to apple music of all things that i'm using on an android phone i spoke to someone yesterday who just said how can youtube have this product that is just so good on so many levels and no one uses it they're just marketing it terribly this does make it a little bit more compelling for me for sure we do play some youtube clips to our 11 month old so she does it's crazy how much she gets involved in it so we only give her like a minute also of some cartoon and then move on but yeah it does make it very compelling scott what do you think well i've got a friend this is a bit of an anecdote and again i have no confirmation on this he's only told me this but i have a friend who knows someone who works at redtube and claims your whole marketing thing claims that they have seen an uptick in users since youtube red launched because there's some market confusion and you should have formed by question more narrowly shouldn't i throw that out there that being said i am not a youtube red user i haven't yet felt like there's been a compelling enough reason for me i don't mind add so much unless i'm doing show stuff and in those cases i'd block for shows but i would the idea of 10 bucks a month is probably something i just need to hunker down and do but i'm just not feeling all that compelled by youtube music or by some of the other offerings that are tied to it as far as this as a product for kids it makes perfect sense to me if you're already doing red you've got the subscription there's no reason not to do this my kids have all grown out of that stage so i don't think any of them would be interested in youtube kids as a service regardless my youngest is 16 now so that has less effect on me but i'm gonna agree with you peter i think this is i think the red name as a brand for youtube is bad they just have done a bad job of making it so that people understand what it is kids who love youtube and are there every day and live on that service and they don't know what i'm talking about when i mention youtube red they don't even know what it means now that said it sounds like both of you are of the opinion like maybe not worth spending 10 dollars a month to get rid of the ads and we'll leave aside whether the other things that are part of youtube red would change that but what about the idea of a kids app for youtube what about the idea of your kids watching videos on a tablet interacting with a tablet at all we touched on this a tiny bit last week when megan moroney was on the show with scott but peter you've got an 11 month old and that is old enough for them to start to want to mess around with your tablet are you gonna let them do that i don't know so i did actually write a story about this last week talking to a couple of people who have done a bit of research on children and tablet use i mean i started from that i actually tracked down this person because i started reading up on tablets and kids and it all sounded terrifying like it really sounded like you know i spoke to my sister who has a four year old and she kind of refuses to let her kid anywhere near a tablet because she kind of says it's almost an addictive drug to her little kid that she has to fight to take it back off her and it becomes a big drama so she straight out doesn't allow tablets in the house and it's hard for me because at last count i had 12 smartphones in my house you know we get a lot of review units coming through and there's tech everywhere i think there's like 4 tablets we actually haven't shown our 11 month old a tablet yet so i've tried to i only use my ipad in bed but i yeah when we have played youtube it's been really a very small burst roger you've got a small kid can you give me some tips can you hear me? we're going to bring in our producer roger chang who also has a 16 months so over a year and a half so one of the things to the youtube thing i would actually use it because it's weird on long trips my kid is generally fine for the first hour it's the last hour that is like uncontrollable the only thing that puts her at ease is a video that she's accustomed to so i would use that because i literally have a bunch of videos on my tablet that i use to kind of pacify her for lack of a better term but in terms of a tablet i actually have a tablet i have the one that tom lent me and i don't let her actually play with it physically but i have it on the lock screen so she can't really do anything and i make sure that whatever she does i'm in control the thing i really try to maintain is that i as a parent have control over access and what she does on it and so she can touch it and she can make the screen turn on but that's it because as you said if i take it away from her she'll go up the walls but that being 16 months i can give her something else within a short amount of time in about 2 minutes she's back to normal but my worries are more about physiological i don't want her to get used to looking at something at close range for extended periods of time i would like her to be able to focus at varying focal lengths distances from a distance as well as something up close the same reason why i don't when i do use my phone i use it in short bursts when i'm around her just like oh did someone leave me a message did i get a facebook post or something other than that i very very rarely use it around her because i know it attracts her attention because she sees hey mommy and daddy use it why can't i play with it and so i'm trying to set for a lack of a better term an example so she doesn't get too caught up on it because i do want her to concentrate on other skills including writing which is something i think it's not that i think touchscreens are bad it's just that i would like her for example to be able to read an analog clock before she can read a digital clock if that makes sense my 11 month old took her first selfie at 9 months by the way oh they love doing this in your article peter the expert that you talk to recommended that the screen usage isn't bad and of course she wasn't talking about the visual part of it like rogers talking about the studies show that when you're outside and you can look farther you reduce the chances of myopia so that is something to consider but just the use of the screen if you're engaging with your child that has better effects right yeah so the basically an ipad just like a television is not a babysitter for your child and don't get me wrong i totally understand using it in that case in long car trips or if you just need to do something get the dishes done there's nothing wrong with allowing a kid to watch Peppa Pig for 20 minutes but it was more the idea that if you put her study when i chatted to her about it she said basically if you're giving a kid an ipad and then having them just stare at the screen and watch hours of cartoons then yeah that's a pretty terrible use of the technology but if you're engaging with a kid playing games and even going outside of the games using anything that's kind of interactive and uses real world things so some of the games she talked about were slightly augmented reality type games where you take a photo of your mom and then you could dress her up in certain ways and that kind of stuff that kind of brought the real world into the tablet and then kind of brought out a real world activity out of it so you kind of had a natural in point and out point with the games that she found or even the activities that she found to be most beneficial and the way she said it was with the parents that she spoke to who kind of had that kind of engagement with their children that actually kind of wore out the kids anyway when you're doing a lot of creative work you kind of do you're using so much of your brain that kids naturally kind of get tired after a 20-30 minute session like that and would then want to move on to other things so she still wouldn't say exactly when I should introduce she wouldn't give me an age a simple yes or no kind of start at three years old or start at four years old and that's what I was desperate for but she says every kid is different it's weird and that it's one of the maddening things about it especially when you're a new parent like us except for Scott is trying to figure out when that time is and I think you will instinctively know seeing how your child reacts with the technology and finding a natural in and out point one of the things I can't wait to do is when Ellie's old enough to be able to do use the constellation app so I can then point out hey this is blah blah blah now if you see up here it's right here like stuff like that where you can kind of integrate it into an everyday not everyday but like in a real world scenario like you were talking about like hey we're going on a car trip we're going to go to Yellowstone look at a map this is the route we're taking these are the things we can see hey would you like to stop somewhere somewhere where you know you're able to use it but they're not lost in it if I guess is a good phrase because if they get lost in it then they start closing out the world immediately outside them especially their parents which is what you don't want but you do definitely want to integrate it in a way that positively impacts makes it a lot more interesting but not necessarily takes over their interaction with you or other people or other kids I would add one tiny little layer to this something we've tried to do at every stage of technology since my kids were born until today and we've seen a lot of changes in that my first daughter was born in 1994 basically the year we got the web my youngest son was born in 2016 now and he has seen the advent of these tablets and touch devices and saw that happen kind of in his childhood one thing we've always tried to do whether it was computers, PCs, tablets phones all steps of the way was try to think of as many use cases as possible where something creative is being done or making something rather than just consuming something so sitting in front of a tablet and having them watch a bunch of cartoons in a row has its place occasionally but we would often say well no here's a stylus so draw and you can obviously do this with paper and stuff but also there's some cool animation apps there's a lot of stuff within that ecosystem where they can creatively challenge their minds make stuff not just consume stuff and that seems to make a big difference I have a daughter who's I go to college and study animation and video game design, I've got a son who does 3D modeling now primarily it's the only thing he does on his computer and that kind of stuff seems to have worked out really well because early on we said alright the focus is what can you do and make with this not so much what can you watch and get with this the key is not to be passive you mentioned this in your article Peter there's an old rule of two and two nobody under two years old two hours of time but that was developed around passivity so you have to adapt that and I guess that's why she can't give you a particular age because it kind of depends on the child if they're ready to engage and you can get them to start doing and making something that might be the right time to let them interact with it on a limited basis yeah and Scott last week you mentioned being able to see on a family plan being able to see the apps that your kids were kind of playing around with I know one friend I didn't get time to fit this in the article but one friend that I spoke to said that he uses the family sharing stuff on iPad to control the kid's device to a certain extent so it turns itself off at a certain time and he just says he's got a four year old and he said that he just tells the four year old that that's how iPads work they can only work for a certain amount of time and then they just switch themselves off and the kids find with that for now daddy was lying well you know you mess up your kids no matter what you just have to accept that bit so there are little tricks I guess you can do that way as well I thought it was also interesting that Lisa who the person I spoke to mentioned that some of the most kind of educational apps were some of the worst because they were just so boring they were so badly made and the app store is just full of trash as we know so make sure there are some links at the bottom of the story of some of the better names of first of all just companies that you know are doing good work so Toka Baka was one of the companies that makes fantastic apps and you know just kind of getting onto some of the websites that are designed for parents and you can tell you how good some of the apps in the app store are because some of them are very very boring and clearly thrown together just to make a couple of bucks unfortunately I thought it was interesting that she recommended Garage Band and iMovie I mean that makes perfect sense when you think about it but I would have never thought about it Music is something that kids run to like candy I don't know what it is if it's just because when they come out they're more attuned to sound but Ellie just loves music even if it's music on an elevator she'll start moving to it which is the oddest thing but like being able to just visualize and then create music in many ways I think is a much a much more advanced step than say like putting them in front of a keyboard because you know my parents have a piano my parents put her in front of the piano to play which she can she just found the keys but she likes the noise being able to kind of interact with that especially a tablet it makes it easier for them to associate certain actions with responses so hey if I put you know so and so note here or tune here it makes sounds like this and they can solely build up which will be interesting I think down the road you'll see a big shift in the way music is produced as less people are bound to traditional you know sheet music and more accustomed to hey this is how I did in GarageBand this is how I read or understand music GarageBand made the music this way I mean it's odd it's odd thing to think about but I've you know ever since I took music lessons everything has been sheet music you learn that you learn through sheet music you learn I'm not sure if you're familiar with this is the Suzuki method which was wrote learning by you know to the nth you know power you just learn it until you learn it so you play the same piece over and over again until you can do recital blindfolded you know in front of a thousand people perfectly and that was kind of the way in my generation you were taught how to play but being able to understand and creatively use things like that is music now with tablet and technologies I think it's going to be a huge plus moving forward especially for creativity because you're now no longer bound by cost if something is just like impossibly huge like a piano to get into your house and as soon as pity can walk I'm going to make a Michael Bay style action film around her so I can't wait to do that I can't wait to see that that sounds amazing I'll help you let us take a peek I have something very similar in mind I'm going to get my kid in a Godzilla suit and then take all the Amazon boxes that we get all her stuff in and just build a fake city and then she can just tear through it amazing we'll have a film fest of the children of DTS and that brings us to the end of this DTS unfortunately thank you Peter Wells for joining us at a respectable hour at least local time for you since you're in New York let folks know where they can find more of you not only here at Daily Tech News show on day 6 but elsewhere definitely I will be recording a special day 6 probably in the air I'll be flying back with a couple of journalists and I'm going to bring this little microphone on board and we'll have our first mile high DTS but I'll do that sometime this week but yeah follow me on Peter Wells on Twitter that's the main place I share things so follow me there excellent Scott Johnson of course always with us on Wednesdays what do you got going on there's always a million things but I'll tell you what this week yesterday in fact we launched the inaugural episode of a brand new show called Rally Point when I say we I mean the folks at Turner Broadcasting and Bleacher Report it is a show dedicated to eSports and competitive gaming hosted by me Brian and Seven it is twice weekly and shows up right there at Bleacher Report and go to BleacherReport.com slash Rally dash point dash podcast very optimized for search engines I suppose but anyway the first episode's up there it's on iTunes we're way up in the ranks which we're feeling really good about you can get it anywhere Google Play wherever you want it available now so check that out that's the Rally Point podcast and thanks to our producer Roger Chang for jumping in on this anything you want to let folks know about before we go keep supporting DTNS we really appreciate it it's awesome helps keep my kid fed and then close the diapers that aren't soiled yeah it's allowing him to pay for the electricity that charges the tablet that keeps Ellie entertained on the long car ride we appreciate your support www.DTNS.com is the place to go to find some perks and tips if you want to support the show that way our email address is feedback dailytechnewshow.com you can give us a call 51259daily shows live Monday through Friday if you want to watch us DiamondClub.tv and alphageekradio.com Monday through Friday 4.30pm eastern and of course our website is dailytechnewshow.com Justin Robert Young is with us tomorrow we've missed him we'll talk to you then get more at frogpants.com DiamondClub hope you have enjoyed this program good show you guys thank you that was great thanks so much and Roger thank you for jumping in man yeah no worries hopefully when do you fly out of New York at the end of the week tomorrow evening I fly out Thursday I return Saturday morning that's how long it takes is that what a 18 hour flight it's whatever it is from New York to LA and then 14 hours from LA so almost 20 hours what's your layover in LA I don't even know I haven't been there I don't want to check but yeah I should check I think the Qantas ones tend to line up pretty quickly so you just have time to kind of get spat out of LA you know if your layover is hours and hours long let me know I swing over and grab a drink or something yeah absolutely that'd be cool yeah I'll check it out apparently I'm going to a Yankees vs Metz game I was going to ask you guys which team should I be going to that is a political question definitely the Yankees are the more historic team in New York you'll find more Yankees fans but the Metz are more of the underdog so kind of have to pick your flavor do you like Jon Stewart at all I do yes then you want to go Metz he's a big Metz fan yeah the Yankees aren't necessarily liked by everyone else is that correct the Yankees because they've won many many World Series are often viewed with disdain by non Yankees fans yes absolutely yes yes Manchester United of US baseball I don't know if the Sydney Swans are in a kind of no no no we were pathetic for so long that everyone kind of likes us ok so the swans are more like the Cubs then got it yeah anyway you see the Yankees suck chance happening in our chat room already yeah alright thanks Peter thanks so much it was awesome yeah it was really good fun cheers mate um titles I'll be very quiet it's you know and I'm guilty of this as anyone else you sometimes do what's the most expedient like like when she's screaming and crying and her face is turning red it's like alright I'll give it to you um but I definitely want to try to avoid that situation sure but it is a funny title I will say it is a funny title 404 your research is not found ha you shall not password have you seen paper I believe that ipads are our future I knew the water world would get you laughing Scott that's the only way it works you have to remember the scene yeah yeah you ever seen paper and if you haven't then it's dumb I love it I believe that ipads are our future hi what's on please think of children with that it's parenting 101 I'm gonna go with iparent you quiet yes really winner we all chuckled at it yeah it's really good it's great fantastic yeah it's uh technology can really be helpful and as an outlet for kids to be creative because it you can do so many things and you're not bound by physical like you know what you're how big your house is stuff like my kids are beyond well beyond me when I was their age and maybe even beyond where I am now like my daughter is creating things that make me go oh my gosh I'm getting behind have you have you when they started with they were they I'm assuming they started with windows or 10 yeah a little of both depends on when which kid but yeah you know basic computer stuff I'm gonna see if she will the age that she'll take to like command line like just to give her an underlying knowledge of the technology in the same way like you know I try to tell my sister and Jen like this is why you check the oil in the car this is why you like basic things did really good for Nick in that regard funny enough was I guess he started playing it in 2010 he was 10 years old but basically 10 years of messing around with minecraft and doing something in there because that requires some command line business to get like mods working the way that's great and yeah he walked away with not only a knowledge of that but I think a better appreciation for kind of underlying systems and things it was well and one of the things that I see people thinking or saying or using as a premise is like oh yeah so minecraft makes kids into coders and the thing is it's not exactly that in my opinion what it is is minecraft is something that gets kids interested in a thing to find out if they're interested in that other thing that it's associated with so not every kid that plays minecraft is going to get into coding not every kid that plays minecraft likes to play around with those mods but a kid who might not have ever come across coding as early in life as Nick did because of minecraft so it's exposing kids to things in a way that they might not have allowed themselves to be exposed to otherwise and I think that's the genius of it it's like giving giving your kids a tablet won't make them into musicians or artists but it might allow them to explore that side of themselves earlier than they would have otherwise yeah my dad bringing home an apple too when I was in junior high or whatever and me learning basic so I could make my own star field simulation I remember that that's like the impetus for a lifetime of tech appreciation and that's a really good point is that didn't turn you into a coder right you're not a developer now because of that but it allowed you to discover something that you loved about absolutely but it also gave you it gave me anyway like this basic understanding of what variables are totally yeah the math works and so I can appreciate it more as someone who didn't completely pursue computer science and found that that extreme sort of boring but it's still all springs eternal into this kind of creative space I'm in like all of this stuff is like partially do at least at least partially do to that computer coming to the house yeah big believer in it being able to tinker is an amazing amazing experience like it doesn't matter what it is like you know being able to fix you know a spring clock or opening up like an old radio see why or why it doesn't work you know it was even if you didn't fix it you gain a better appreciation okay for example I had an old Milton Bradley video game that was space invaders and after a while the button stopped working they took it apart to find to figure out why and I saw that the trace that led from the button to the actual microcontroller there was this big black oil stain on it so somebody either drank something or spilled something on it but it literally you know knocked out the trace I couldn't fix it because I was 12 you know I had a screwdriver and maybe a couple of paper towels to my name but I understood why it didn't work you know I had to I had to it's like I could plainly see and understand that hey look this little gold thing that goes up from here is cut off and it doesn't work you know later as I got older and I got a little more an electronic to understand what traces were you know wires how you could wire I could have potentially just bridged with a piece of wire if I had a soldering iron and a lot of time on my hands but like things like that I think is great just being able to play with stuff and figure things out even if it is you know not working at the end of it I think MS DOS gaming was like crucial remember you had to write your own batch scripts to get things working and figure out your interrupts I mean it was all incremental because later it helped me figure out how to get quake working right because it finally had a mouse look and that wasn't built into anything you had to like write scripts to make your mouse work and then you had to go into the INI and add a bunch of additional entries okay now it works and you didn't think about it you didn't even seem like you were doing anything important you just wanted the frigate game to work the way you wanted it to do anything to just get it like so when you moved the mouse it would move I think VR is the next at least one of the next stages of what we're talking about it can be I mean there's a lot of questions about physicality and eyes and development there too but but like at some point it's incredibly revealing for somebody who's artistically inclined to get into tilt brush and a Vive and suddenly have this incredible virtual painting experience where anything is possible it just makes their minds like going to overdrive I will be so is your daughter going to be into that or your son yeah both of them are kind of I'm next really into 3D modeling my daughter's really into art and animation and I'm wondering if there will be a literally a senator of dovetailing of traditional sculpture and traditional like you know painting in a virtual world where like your daughter comes out and says okay I want to try my Anne at modeling clay or something where it's you know it branches out into different disciplines that they might have not considered or actually interesting for you to ask she started out on you know of course paper and pens and stuff like that and then for a long time used an old iPad to draw a lot on and that was really where she she worked out a lot of her style stuff and now she's got an old wake on that I let her use but she's she's completely gone like old school she's buying she's buying canvases in fact I think she wow she gets oils and she does watercolor and she's starting to mess around with acrylic like she's way into how does the old stuff go whereas I'm like I was raised on the old stuff and really prefer my digital world and she's going the other direction appreciating the older stuff so because it's new to her right and it was never knew it was old to you so it's really interesting it's easy to say ah you hipster but it's not something else it's a I don't know it's a getting back to there's a there is a curiosity about this I mean I had the same thing it's why you know I used to take her even even when we moved into you know digital audio and video I still wanted to know how you know how things worked before like why you plug five different wires from one from one deck to another I mean there's a great documentary called wires or whatever that explores the history of electronic music but not like synth it not like digital synthesizers but like old old moves and you know you literally just running patch court for one thing to another to get an effect and like people reaching back out to it because they at least the people in the documentary say like they you get a better understanding of why things are done that way like even in a digital space where you can just pipe things into another the tactile feedback is like oh okay I get it now yeah like I you know it's funny one of the things that I I'm so jealous of kids these days because I typed up my own daily newspaper in sixth grade I self published a yearbook our elementary school didn't have yearbooks but I made a yearbook for our sixth grade class and I would have I can't imagine what I would have done if I'd had the web right and if I had desktop publishing software but even when I got older and I was making like a newsletter for our fantasy baseball league and I had a printer and I had a computer I still went and I typed up the newsletter because it looked better and I liked the control that I had over layout and of course when PageMaker came out later I was super excited like oh my gosh that's doing a lot of the things that I could do on paper but even when I was able to take advantage of digital tools there were still things I couldn't do with it yet and I tie that back into what you were saying Roger because there is always that tactile feedback that we have yet to mimic digitally yet where it's just sometimes easier it's more scannable you are able to get more input and a better feel for something because you're able to touch it I can't draw on a tablet with crap but I can draw fine on a sheet of paper in a number two pencil or a drafting pencil because my background is in drafting yeah I can't draw on a tablet with crap but I also can't draw on anything with crap except the zero's it's all that matters it took a while for me to get used to it I went through a bunch of nibs too I finally found some from my waycom that have the drag of a really? yeah that's great if you could email that to me because that's the one thing I really kind of like I don't have that I don't have that resistance and so my arm over compensates everywhere and I'm like it's weird at first to get used to the smooth way and then when I found these I came back to feeling like paper and now it's hard for me to go with the smooth one again but yeah I'll send you they're just waycom extra nibs you can buy them in these different types and styles yeah I just got the whatever six or five replacements that they pack in with the tablet you know I have a belief that limitations and this is the thing that goes back to probably why your daughter is so fascinating having defined limitations of what you can actually do with the medium in many ways makes you more creative because now you're thinking well I can't do it this way anymore how can I take how can I do whatever I want to do with this technology to get as close to what I want done without the benefit of just being able to click and copy and paste or something to it I think there is a like okay there's a there's a fascination of okay what other ways can I do to make sound with an 8 you know with an 8 key keyboard versus like your standard 88 key keyboard is it 88 keys? I don't remember I hate it I took my piano lessons from a nun so I wasn't really too enthused Sister Teresa that was her name Sister Teresa there was no Mother Teresa there no she didn't feed a bunch of people or whatever I haven't really been reductive about Mother Teresa suddenly I didn't mean to do that yeah she fed a bunch of people right that was her deal okay yeah whatever man same well that's it for this stream thanks everybody for watching listening enjoying hating crying eating crying loving uh yeah that's that's all you don't have to go home you can't stay here bye everybody