 That's a clip from the New History Channel series, Project Blue Book, and although some claim that the series doesn't stick close enough to the real history of the U.S. government's investigation into UFOs and E.T. contact, I would suggest that it does a pretty good job of reminding us of that history and documenting that history, because of course the problem is real science of this kind, the kind that Dr. Allen Heineck in Project Blue Book was trying to do, is hard to come by. We had numerous P.S.T. academics involved in this. We had a P.S.T. statistician involved, Dr. Russell Scalpone. We had the advice of Dr. Dean Raiden throughout this process, so it was really a collaborative research effort with academics and researchers. This is a total paradigm shift. I don't care how much you've studied UFOs, I don't care how on the cutting edge you think you are of conspiracy, alt news, whatever. What we're asking people to do is take that leap to say, okay, well then somebody has to study what's going on, and here's a guy who studied it, and he studied it scientifically. And now let's talk about his findings. And we're talking about fricking reptilians versus grays versus spirit beings, and we're comparing income-trasting the percentage of people who said they had this kind of contact or that kind of contact. So before I get onto this interview with the very excellent Ray Hernandez, who has nearly single-handedly created this entire movement of the scientific investigation of contact experiences, and he's drawn to him some of the brightest and most important advanced thinkers we have of our time, I just can't say enough about what he's done and about what he reveals in this interview. Before we get to that interview and my poking at Ray, which you've got to know I'm going to do, let me return to the Project Blue Book clip, because there's another interesting little point from that scene that relates to today's interview. So the lights on the game would have given off approximately 50,000 bloomers on a clear night, 5,000 feet, that would have diffused to approximately 100,000, that would have kind of diffraction, wind currents, the fact that the balloons cone-shaped. What do you say? Did you just put on that song? Yeah. Why? In your notes you said that Fuller said the song, that song, told him that he was in danger, and you just put it on. Because one of the findings from Ray's work, and a messy finding it is, is that the UFO ET stuff cannot be easily separated from all that which we call paranormal. These were overwhelmingly positive experiences. Number two, it resulted in a positive transformation of the experiencer. Number three and four is that these experiences were primarily not physical. They were primarily paranormal. That was number three. Number four is that these experiences involve a manipulation of space time. Stick around to have a great chat coming up with Ray Hernandez. Today's guest, Ray Hernandez, heads an organization, and I've been trying to think how to say this, but there's really no other way because Ray Hernandez's free organization is doing some of the most important research in the world, period. I mean, when you get a group of top PhD scientists researching the nature of and implications of our ongoing contact with highly advanced non-human intelligence, what most people call ET, and in a minute, Ray's going to go even way beyond that. But when you even have that, what is more important than that? And you know, I want to kind of frame this up, and I was just chatting with Ray a little bit beforehand because it's kind of strange, you know? I think deep down, we all know that this, what I call UFO-ET thing, is a central question. But even after we have disclosure, and I mean, folks, don't forget, and don't let your hanger-on doubter friends forget that this has been disclosed. The reality of this, New York Times, CBS News, Fox News, as I was just chatting to Ray about, why am I not battling for airtime with Anderson Cooper and Tucker Carlson to talk to Ray Hernandez, who is the only guy who has a public group with top scientists that's researching this stuff. It's a rather strange situation that we find ourselves in. But at the same time, we know that some of this stuff we're going to talk about today is uncomfortable. It's uncomfortable to the level that we want to kind of push it down and push it aside and think about more stupid CNN 24-hour news cycle stuff. But I digress even from the beginning because what I really want to do is get in this conversation with this remarkable guy, Ray Hernandez, who, by the way, is still a full-time practicing attorney, a master's degree from Cornell, working on his PhD from Berkeley in a spare time, just to give you an idea of how smart this guy is, author of an amazing, super important book, Beyond UFOs, the Science of Consciousness and Contact with Non-Human Intelligence. Ray, it is absolutely terrific to have you back on. It's been a couple of years. You've done even so much more since then. Thanks so much for coming back on and Skeptico and joining me. Thank you for that wonderful introduction, Alex. And I just want to let your audience members know that I turned to you and also to Jeffrey Mishloff to get my training, my chops on consciousness research, because once I found out that my paranormal experiences that I was having is related to consciousness, I then devoured so many of your interviews over the many years and I just found them as fundamental, educational pieces for my proper understanding of what was happening to me as an experiencer and my experience began in April of 2012. So it's been a crash course of receiving training both from whatever the intelligence that I've been interacting with, but also from people like yourself and Jeffrey Mishloff and others and Edgar Mitchell as well and Rudy Shields. So it was a tremendous learning that that took place since 2012. Well, that's great to hear. You know where I thought we would go is back to that 2012 story because it is an amazing account. I think it sets the stage for so many launching off points that we could have. And it's just a terrific personal story from a guy. As you describe, you know, I mean, who you are at that time. 2012, you're an attorney. You're a busy guy. You're not like into spirituality. You're none of the UFOs. You're none of this stuff. You're just a guy, successful guy. And tell that story. What happens? Yes. As I've told you earlier, several years ago, I was a rationalist, materialist, atheist with a little understanding and zero interest. And all these topics that are discussed on your show. And then one evening on March the third, 2012, our 15 year old Jack Russell Terrier became paralyzed. And she had been very, very ill even before then. She couldn't run. She couldn't jump. She was taking Viagra for her heart. Doretics to flush out the excess liquids in her body. And so we knew, you know, she had limited time to be with us, but she was like our daughter, our first child. And so that evening on a Saturday evening, she became totally paralyzed. I then called our vet, who was a good friend of mine, of my wife and I, Dr. Phil Cruz, and he, I described what the symptoms and she said, what you're telling me is seems like she had a cerebral hemorrhage, a stroke, and I'll open up my office tomorrow to euthanize her. Because, you know, I told him I was very uncomfortable waiting all weekend for her being totally paralyzed in front of us. So then my wife had just come from a three day Catholic Church prayer retreat. Three days nonstop, just pure prayer. And so when she came home that Saturday night at about eight at eight thirty, I told her what had happened and she immediately began to pray. And 11 o'clock or so, I went to sleep and she continued praying all night. And then in the morning, we both woke up, we checked the dog, the dog was still totally paralyzed. So I went back to bed and she carried the dog down the stairs to see if she can go to the bathroom. And so what happened was that she saw an object in the corner of our living room that floated four feet off the ground and it looked like an upside down U. It was roughly about a half a foot width and about a foot and a half and a half in height. And she maybe thought it was an angelic spirit or or an angel because she had been praying for an angelic intervention. So she now down started to pray right there. And this object beamed on her these two green lasers. And so then at that point, she began to call me so I could see her angel as well. She wasn't scared at all because in her mind these were angels. This was an angel. And so after me being non responsive, this is Sunday morning at six o'clock. I needed my beauty rest. She ran upstairs and she hold me out of bed and and she forced me to see what this was. And she wouldn't tell me the details. And then when we both went down the stairs, she was in front of me down the stairs, maybe two or three steps right in the middle of the room, she disappeared and the dog disappeared. And then immediately some type of intelligence took over my consciousness. I didn't care that my wife had gone, the dog had gone. And then I had I didn't have any peripheral vision. All I was able to see is like a little if you put your rounded finger to your eyes like you're looking in a binocular. I was just see this small portion of our living room and they're floating four feet off the ground. Was what I now call an energy being and was roughly two feet wide by about a foot in height. It was like a like a mirage in the desert, translucent like that, waving energy, multicolored, semi-transparent. And then basically I squinted at it, I looked at it, then I wave my hand at it and I said, I BS. This is what she got me up for, for this for this junk, you know? And then I turned around and I walked up the stairs and immediately it knocked me out in my bed. Forty five minutes later when I woke up, I was now fully conscious. And I was like, what the, you know what? And I ran down the stairs and then my wife, like reappears. She looks down on the floor and the dog is running around the whole living room and she starts to celebrate. Hallelujah, hallelujah, the angels cure the angels cure. And so to me, it was like an atom bomb had exploded in my brain. And so my wife, I later found out six months later that what she had was missing time. Those 45 minutes that she was gone, she had no recollection that they were gone to her was like she had gone down the stairs. She looked down, the dog was running around. She started to celebrate, but it was 45 minutes because I had looked at the at the clock. And so it was different stories, different perceptions of what we both saw because we both were not there when we initially saw what we saw. And then bewilderment, it was chaos, it was like mind blowing. And then after that, I thought it was paranormal related. And so I spent several months going to the internet thinking it was paranormal. But then she had also told me in Spanish, se parecía como una nave pequeña, which translate it almost appeared to be like a little small craft. So then I said, you know, well, UFOs are supposed to be outside. It's supposed to be huge. This thing can't be a UFO. But let me type in UFO to see what I can learn about it. And so for the next two months, that's all I did. Six to eight hours a day researching paranormal UFO and nothing on the internet supported what had happened to my wife and I. And then two months later, the dog woke my wife up at three thirty in the morning. My wife then went downstairs and opened the back door. But the dog didn't want to go to the back door. She was jumping on the front door. And then after about a minute, she looked up and it was a huge, gigantic craft or a UFO or a UAP. We prefer the term UAP unidentified aerial phenomenon because most of the time what people see are not physical crafts, quote unquote, it's all types of of light configurations and energy configurations in the sky. So anyway, so when I woke up that morning, she says, oh, my angels came and visited me last night. They came in a beautiful angelic craft that had stained glass windows just like our church. And I say, what? You saw an angel describe it, then she described it. And then she I asked her to draw it. I said, what you saw was a UFO. She goes, oh, you wouldn't understand because you're an atheist. You know, so it was at that point that I said, oh, my God, this is UFO related, you know. And so then it was, you know, heavy duty UFO on the Internet. And then about a month and a half later, this is early June, my wife went down to Mexico. She spent an entire month with my daughter stayed with family members and multiple times, about four times she called down her angels. She would be praying and wanting to see the angels that interacted with her. And each time a big UFO would show up. And one time it stopped airport traffic in Veracruz Airport. And it's all documented in the newspapers. And there was even a TV interview on the local TV in Veracruz that I was able to pull up. And and the man that was going to go to her brothers or actually her niece's baptism party that Sunday right after that UFO aircraft over Veracruz Airport. He was one of those people that was stuck going around Veracruz. And he said everybody in the plane was taking videos of the UFO. And he was showing the video in that the baptism party. And so and then my wife also saw these three very tall being she described them as a seven to eight feet tall dressed in white munch robes. They didn't look completely human. They had like a bold head, a different facial features. But she couldn't tell what it was because she was seeing it sideways and she couldn't fully tell what their face looked like. But they floated in front of her about a foot off the ground for about 20 seconds and then they disappeared. And then my wife, when she got back home, she was having all these paranormal experiences, especially precognition and I won't go into those details because it was so many of them. And then in August, roughly six months after that initial experience in the living room, I, for the first time ever, purposely tried to call down the intelligence that my wife had been interacting with. This is in the evening in August, mid August, I think it was. And it appeared this huge, gigantic object appeared the size of a football stadium right on top of my next door neighbor's house, 30 feet. The bottom of this object was less than 30 feet away from us. And my daughter wound up seeing it and three adult friends. And there was telepathic communication that took place. Really, you know, some crazy stuff. And and then it was after that experience that it began for me two years of nonstop paranormal experiences that really lasted two years and even let the formation of free over a two day period as well. Let's put a pause right there. Pause, Mark, because I want to talk about the free organization. But I want to go back to how I started the show because it sounded like hype, folks. It sounded like hype. Most important research in the world. It's not hype. If this is real, if this guy, this attorney from Miami who spent this is 2012, who spent the last seven years of his life creating this incredibly relevant and important organization that everyone points to this free organization, Harvard PhDs, a dozen PhDs from around the world, all drawn to it. All saying, Mr. Hernandez, what you're doing is so important, validated by peer reviewed journals. All that stuff has happened from one guy who had these extraordinary experiences, similar experiences to what thousands of other people have reported. Similar experiences to what has now been disclosed and admitted to. How is this not the most important topic in the world? Ray is going to talk about our relationship to the phenomenon or the phenomena that is out there. But I like to keep it in simpler terms since this is what we've been programmed to think of ETs and UFOs. So that's the term I use because that's where we've been programmed. How is not our relationship with this super advanced intelligence that has this ability to manipulate consciousness as Ray is talking about in a way that we don't understand how is that not topic number one? And before you get onto the free organization, I did want to highlight a couple of points from your experience. But I did think it might be interesting if we could to recap some important points from that first experience, right? Because so many things that people hear and you encapsulate them all. Multiple witnesses, healing, again, a spiritual dimension to it, after effects. So you have this experience and then long after your wife starts having these advanced consciousness experiences, telepathy, precognition, all the rest of stuff you do too. And then you have this crazy memory screening thing where some one, some thing, some entity, some intelligence is taking over your brain. I love that part of the story that you walk down and it's the most extraordinary experience in your life and your brain clicks in and goes, Oh, this is bullshit. I need to go back upstairs and go to sleep. So these are some of the elements to this that are there and then drive you later on to start trying to put your arms around this in a scientific way. And that's what you've done with this free organization. So I know we're covering ground that's been covered before, but I just feel like we have to start here because otherwise it all just sounds like inside baseball craft to people that they can't follow. So you were just about to say that there's this amazing set of coincidences that lead you to found this free organization. But so tell that story however you want, but I almost feel like we need to jump to the end of what free is today, the books it's publishing, the respect it's getting, the importance it's seeing not only when the inside the UFO community, but wink and a nod. A lot of people in the scientific community are looking over going, Hey, you know, this is really important stuff. So tell us about the free organization. The free organization from my perspective was orchestrated by nonhuman intelligence. It was literally set up within a two day period. I don't want to go into all the details of how it was formed. It's in a book in the preface that I wrote to our book beyond UFOs. But just a synopsis of it. I was driving down a major thoroughfare in Miami, Florida, middle of a traffic jam, going into downtown Miami at 830 in the morning. And then listening to this radio interview of this man doing a documentary on art fat, which came from his own liposuction. And so I was listening to this thing and I was, you know, I was fascinated by it. And all of a sudden I'm not in my car anymore. I have nobody. I'm just mind. It's just pure mind. And little by little, I'm inside this huge spinning wheel and the wheel becomes materialized and then I see spokes. It's like if you could imagine, you're inside a huge ferris wheel that's like 10 times the size of a ferris wheel. You're at the fulcrum in the center of it and you're looking out and it's spinning around slowly. And then each of the different spokes has a video. And one video was UFO contact experiences. Another one was near death experiences. Another one was out of body experiences. Another one communication with ghosts and spirits. Another one had remote viewing. Another one was shamanic journeys, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. All the different ways that humans are piercing the veal and having contact with non-human intelligence. And then it wasn't a voice. It was pure information that informed me that humans are approaching all these different ways that they're communicating with them. And they said them, whatever them is, and a separate and distinct phenomenon. But in fact, it's all one phenomenon. And they said and the key to be able to understand it, humans are calling it consciousness. But in fact, it's the fabric of our reality. And then it gave me instructions of what I needed to do. And again, it wasn't a voice. It was just straight information. And it said, I need to inform humanity of the relationship between them, the spirit world and consciousness. Them, the spirit world and consciousness. What is that relationship? And as this information was being put into my consciousness, I had no idea what they're talking about, you know, what this was. Can I ask a quick question there, Ray? Because when you say them, was it? And this is going to freak people out. But who cares? We have to just kind of deal with it. Is it a voice now from an entity? Is it just a knowing kind of absorbing into your mind? Is it happening in a flash and immediate download? Is it an ongoing kind of like normal conversation, if you will, in terms of timeline, any details that would help? It was outside of, you know, definitely space time, outside of space and outside of time. Because when I was returned that interview that I was listening to did not skip a beat, you know, it was there was not a second that had gone by with that interview. Back to liposuction art in Miami. Yes, correct, correct, correct. And as a matter of fact, someone doubted me and he did the research and he found that date, that interview on public radio here in Miami about this man being interviewed for that. And he showed me the link. He says, you know, Ray, I doubted you, but you were right. And so, but it seemed like it was about 20 to 30 minutes that I was having this type of experience. And in terms of it wasn't a voice, it's difficult to describe, Alex. It's what it is, is I guess it's like people that do like mystical meditation and get like downloads of information like knowing this, but it was much more tangible. It wasn't like so abstract. It was like someone was was putting these thoughts in your brain without a voice. You know, there are no words to describe it. I guess it's like an NDE, a near-death experience when this being identified as God speaks to the dead person, you know, and they're getting a life review and they're getting instructions and from, quote, unquote, God from this high level intelligence. They don't describe it as a voice. They just describe it as just like an instant knowing this instant information. So I would describe it the same way. And so they said, this is not about you getting rich. And secondly, the people you need going to need help. And there's one criteria for that. You have to identify people with minimal ego. So once it said that, boom, I was back in my car and I was freaking out. OK, and then, you know, just totally bewildered, you know, I was freaking out. And then later that afternoon, I got an email from Mary Rodwell six months earlier. I had sent an email to like 10 very famous names of people in euphology wanting someone to talk to. Whitley Schrieber, Grant Cameron, Stan Friedman, you know, Mary Rodwell, Kathy Martin, et cetera, et cetera, these big names in euphology because I wanted someone to talk to. I had no one to communicate with. And so Mary had responded and she says, dear Ray, I'm sorry I'm responding to an email that you had sent me six months ago. But it just six months ago. And it arrives the day after or the day of your download experience. I mean, again, we can just kind of breeze past that as coincidence, coincidence, coincidence, but it is what it was held up in cyberspace. And you could ask Mary Rodwell, if you ever do interview her again, ask her that question and she'll verify it. And so then she showed me how to use Skype. I had never used Skype and we were on Skype to like one thirty in the morning. And then I had told her, Mary, I need to go to sleep. I got work to borrow. And then the very next day I got a phone call. Hello, is this Ray Hernandez? Yes, who's this? Dr. Rudy Shields, who had no idea who this man was. He's an emeritus professor of astrophysics from Harvard University. Very dear friend of the late Dr. John Mack, very, very dear friend of the late Edgar Mitchell. And and he is like a Stephen Hawking's type of person. I mean, his expertise is black holes. And had been a member of the Astrophysics Department at Harvard for more than 40 years. So here's this man giving me a call at nine thirty in the morning, the day after my experience. And what had happened was that Mary had jumped the gun. She had sent him my experience because I also had physics downloads. And it was a download about consciousness, how it works, how it operates. And so Rudy got the email from Mary, but I didn't have time to read the email that Mary had sent me asking for my permission for her to send that information. And so Rudy just immediately gave me a call. And at that point, he was like blown away. He says, Ray, the information that you received is Edgar Mitchell's quantum hologram theory of consciousness of how it operates. And Edgar always speculated that what Rudy called the modern miracles and Edgar also called the modern miracles, that they're all interrelated. And then he told me that he also, you know, hypothesizes this as well, the information that was given to me. But he said I was given it very directly. So then he started talking about Edgar Mitchell's quantum hologram theory of consciousness, which is a physics based theory of information, how information works with our consciousness, our brain and the information fields of our reality and very, very detailed and complex. And then towards the end, he said, look, Ray, I'm going to help you out. You were given a clear mission. I will be your scientific advisor, but it's important that you write down this telephone number and I wrote it down. And he says, did the telephone number of my mentor? I said, was who's your mentor? He goes, Edgar Mitchell. And so I was like blown away because I knew who Edgar Mitchell was. And so I waited like four hours to give him a call. Edgar Mitchell, just for those who, you know, astronaut, I think like sixth guy to walk on the moon, which nowadays younger people can't process that. But like I was just telling my kids the other day, this is like rock star, superstar, athlete, most important, sexy Hollywood guy in the world. That's what an astronaut was. And then this guy goes and does that. He's not one of the first guys, but he's the sixth guy, which is like super important. And then he goes on and he has this epiphany on the way back. And it leads him to dedicate the rest of his life to understanding, again, what we're broadly calling consciousness here. And that's OK. And then he starts the ion group, you know, ions, everyone knows. The Institute for Noetic Sciences. Dean Raiden, everybody knows. We've talked to so many of those people. Forefront, parapsychology, research, all the rest of that. So please continue with the story. But that's who that guy is or was. He just passed away a couple of years ago or a year ago. Yeah, about in February of almost three years ago, I think it was. And just for your audience members, Edgar is also known as the father of the modern UFO disclosure movement because he was the most prominent astronaut that was out open talking about UFOs that they exist. And he's appeared in numerous conferences over the years. It's gone numerous interviews. So he pretty much is the the father of the UFO disclosure movement. But more importantly, I think he should be known as the father of modern consciousness research. He laid the foundation for what Dean Raiden is doing today. And he was a brilliant man, very, very loving and kind. He also did videos about how we're destroying our planet. Also about spirituality, that we need to become more spiritual. Edgar really was the full package. So again, if you do interview Rudy Shields, Dr. Rudy Shields, ask him about what I just told you. I said, look, Rudy Rage has told me this crazy story. Is this true? And you'll see, he'll back it up. And then you could have also asked Edgar, but Edgar's passed away. So what happened was I worked up the courage four hours later after I hung up with Rudy to give Edgar a call. It was about three o'clock or so. And then he told me that he and Rudy had a very lengthy conversation shortly after I spoke with Rudy and Edgar was definitely intrigued. And he says, Ray, what are you doing tomorrow? I said, well, you know, I'm just working. I don't have any set plans. He said, would it be possible for you to come to my place at 10 o'clock? I said, well, where are you located? He says Lake Worth, Florida, which is 90 minutes away. I said, sure, be an honor. So we set a time for me to go to his house. So mind you now, this is two days after my experience. I would I was at Edgar Mitchell's house. And I was there like for six hours. I won't give you the details of what took place there. But basically, Edgar told me his whole life. He told me about how all the astronauts in the cosmonauts were having paranormal experiences in space. He told me about his experiences, but he never saw a UFO. But he one thing that I realized was that Edgar has been speaking with so many different contact experiencers, people that that had NDE's, OBE's, UFO contact experiencers, Edgar knew the full gambit and the interrelationship of these experiences. And so he said, look, Ray, Rudy and I already discussed it. We will be your scientific advisors for whatever you decide to do. And I said, but Edgar, I haven't even thought about what mission I was given, you know, let alone what I'm going to be doing. And he says, don't worry, Ray, it'll come to you. It always works that way. And to me, I was like perplexed. I mean, look what this man is saying, you know, it'll come to you. It always works that way. It was like he was speaking in riddles, you know. And finally, what happened was that Edgar had been working with so many experiencers. Edgar had been involved in the paranormal world for so long that he knew how, you know, synchronicities take place and downloads and and how the orchestration takes place with nonhuman intelligence. So then I called Mary later on. We had a Skype call and I told her what had happened with Rudy, what had happened with Edgar. And I said, would you like to join us? So two days after that initial experience, that other body experience where I was taking, I was taken to what I now call a matrix reality, the free organization was born. Great. So, Ray, since we did start at the beginning, we're going to be weighted down with kind of covering stuff that you've covered a million times and you probably get tired of talking about. But I think we're on a roll here of trying to create this completed picture of this just so important history, fundamentally important history. So one of the really important things that you decide to undertake as part of this free organization is you say, throw science at it, throw science at it. Well, the first thing you do that is truly unique and it doesn't sound remarkable at this point. But if we look back even a little bit in this history, and I'm going to keep using the term UFO and ET people because I don't like the other terms because you know what they mean. But when we look at the history of the UFO thing, the shift you made is to say, hey, everyone's talking about landing sites, nuts and bolts, propulsion. Why don't we talk about experiencers? Why don't we talk about the experience that people have had? Huge shift, right? Huge, huge shift. And then the second thing you do is you say, OK, let's throw some science at it because again, the folks who like to kind of hold onto the reins of mainstream science and misdirect us and misguided us will tell you that human experience cannot be studied scientifically. But anyone knows that that's of course nonsense. Of course, any discussion of pain, every pain, medication, depression, all these things are human experiences that we've studied scientifically for the longest time. And we have billions of dollars of pharmaceutical companies that study all that, whether they're good or bad, believe that aside. Your point was, let's study the human experience of contact with ET, nonhuman intelligence, and you throw at it this scientific methodology of medical scientific survey. So tell us about that process and then tell us about some of the huge takeaways from that initial survey work that you did. OK, it's important to lay out the foundation. When I was having these experiences, I began to do like anyone that has an academic background and academic literature review of what has been written academically about UFO contact experiences, which is normal and logical. And what I found out was that almost nothing has been written academically about UFO contact experiences. There have been a few very small studies that were done, for example, Dr. Kenneth Ring, I believe you might have interviewed him. I'm not sure. Not yet. No. OK, Dr. Kenneth Ring, for your audience members, is one of the world's leading researchers on near death experiences. He was a tenured professor at the University of Connecticut for many, many years. And in 1988, he published really a historic book titled The Omega Project. And in that book, he compared roughly 85 individuals that had UFO related contact experiences, mainly abductees with 85 individuals that had near death experiences. Now, he didn't ask anywhere near the number of questions that we ask in our free experience or research study survey. But one of the main areas that he focused on was how that these individuals change psychologically. What is their personality profile now? And and then there were other smaller studies, for example, Kathy Martin and Denise Stoner. Kathy is a is a member of our board, and she is the director of Mulfons Experience Research Division, and she had done a study with approximately 50 experiencers, again, mainly abductees. And most of the questions were sent around the abduction phenomenon. It was 50 questions, so it was extremely limited. And there were a couple of others, Leo Sprinkle, Dr. Leo Sprinkle, who was a professor of psychology at the University of Wyoming. He had published some articles on UFO contact experiences, but it's basically he administered the Minnesota Mental Health. I always forget the acronym. It's a mental health assessment battery to determine whether, you know, someone is is a nut job or not, you know, whether they have mental health problems. And what he concluded was that they're just as normal as the mainstream population is the UFO contact experiences. So it was very, very limited data. And so because I already was given the information that all of these contact experiences were all interrelated. OK, how are we able to be do a comparative analysis between UFO contact experiencers with near death experiencers without a body experiencers, given the fact that there was zero data on the UFO contact experiencers? OK, all you had existing at that time were books on individual cases or individuals that had put together hypnotic regression information, asking tons of leading questions from a very, very biased perspectives, i.e. David Jacobs and Bud Hopkins. You know, it's not putting someone on your table and asking them leading questions under hypnotic regression. That's not scientific academic research. So in other words, there was nothing there to be able to to compare to be able to use for a comparative analysis to understand how what I now call the contact modalities is interrelated. So and let me just jump in there because I don't want to get things sidetracked. I'm not sure where I come down on David Jacobs, interviewed him a couple of times, interviewed him and Mary Rodwell, kind of, you know, and interleaved the interviews. I just don't want people to tune out immediately and say, oh, this guy is in this camp and this guy is in that camp because and you're getting to this, Ray, but the important thing about your research is it's scientific research. It was done in a way to take if you have a bias against David Jacobs, my contention is that bias does not show up in your survey. Correct, correct. Well, you didn't design a survey. You didn't design a survey to do this or to set this position or that. You set out to say, OK, how can I ask these questions in as broad a way as possible scientific? How can I do the thing like ask the question multiple times? See if they repeat it. How can I have a researcher who's done social science work like this? Review all the questions, make sure they're the right questions. That was your approach, correct? Because there was zero data that was there. The reason I threw out his name and I could throw out other people who do hypnotic regression research. That's not, you know, scientific academic research. And so therefore we had to establish a baseline of what is the scientific data that's out there, what is the statistical data. So we needed to undertake a comprehensive, statistical data collection done among many countries, you know, multinational and in many languages. And so what we did is we spent nine months. We already had established a research team with many PhD academics and with many researchers, people like Mary Rodwell, Kathleen Martin, Barbara Lam, Leo Sprinkle, etc. People that had been had their boots on the ground working with experiencers for many, many years. So we put together the academics with the researchers and we say, OK, how do you go about studying UFO contact experiencers? And John Clemo, who taught research methodology for 45 years, Dr. John Clemo, a professor of psychology, who basically had focused on the paranormal for over 40 years. He was a tenured faculty member, one of the few that was a tenured faculty member focusing mainly on the paranormal. So he was the chair of our committee and we spent nine months trying to develop a methodology which resulted in three surveys. Two of them were quantitative in nature, totaling more than 700 questions. And then we developed a survey three, which is open-ended, qualitative questionnaire, 70 questions. And then we advertised this, my goodness, we advertised this all over the place. We advertised it in over 500 Facebook sites. We had a mailing list of thousands, over 5,000 names that we sent it out to both the UFO folks, the paranormal folks, the consciousness researchers, ghosts and spirits, NDE researchers, OBE researchers, anyone that might have had contact with non-human intelligence, specifically our focus was UFO related contact experiences. We sent it out to. And let me jump in there again, because I've heard this before and I know what's percolating in people's mind is that that somehow invalidates your results because you went out to the broad population or in this case, you went out to specific groups and sought their participation in the survey. And I'll just cut to the chase here. That does not invalidate this kind of work. This is the way that work of this kind is done all the time. If you're doing a pain survey, you don't go out in interview everyone, whether or not they've experienced a certain kind of chronic arthritic pain, you don't go out to the general population. You seek out people that have had that kind of experience. And then you ask them things about that. So I don't know why people have this fixed in their head that you can't go out and publicize and promote participation in these surveys. This is how it's done. There's no other way. So you don't have to address that. I just wanted to throw that in because I get that back. It's we threw out a fishing net, a huge gigantic fishing net, 200 radio interviews. We identified 500 Facebook organizations, as I said before, dealing with this vast array of experiences, mainly focused on the UFO phenomena because that was the nature of our research study. And we did this on a weekly basis. We posted in these 500 Facebook sites, our research study. And we also only allowed conscious, explicit memory and not memory from hypnotic regressions, lucid dreams, channeling because we knew that if eventually we want to publish this in a peer reviewed journal, if you're using memories from lucid dreams and channeling hypnotic regression, it's going to be totally debunked. And so that's why we for phase one and two, the quantitative aspects of it, we allowed only conscious, explicit memory. However, for phase three, which is the qualitative instrument where people got to write down the details of their experiences to write it out. We did allow these other type of memory recollections, but they had to identify this information came from a hypnotic regression. This other one came from a lucid dream. This came from a channeling. This was conscious, explicit memory, et cetera, et cetera. So we didn't totally exclude it, but not for the quantitative data. And then we developed the surveys in English, Spanish, French, German, Slovak and very soon it's going to be administered in Chinese. So and again, we had numerous PhD academics involved in this. I believe also you interviewed Dr. Bob Davis. Yes. Bob Davis is a retired professor of neuroscience from the State University of New York, again, someone that's extremely interested in these topics, a very brilliant mind. And he helped us tremendously. We had a PC statistician involved, Dr. Russell Scalpone. We had the advice of Dr. Dean Raiden throughout this process. So it was really a collaborative research effort with academics and researchers. And OK, right. Yes. Right. Let's jump ahead then. The big takeaways from this work. And I think, again, when we truly step back, we can see how significant this shift is. And for folks who listen to Skeptical All The Time, they might not immediately see it because we talk about it all the time. But here is a guy, Ray Hernandez, in the free organization with all these academics and PhDs behind it that went out and did this survey, looked for the answer. And what you find is, number one, let's talk about the word abduction and whether or not how that fits into this. And then the other thing I want you to hit on is the, you know, you call it contact modalities, but the interconnectedness of this phenomenon with all these other phenomena. Correct. Just as a background, we had over 4,002 individuals respond to our surveys for more than 100 countries to our English language survey. We also did a statistical analysis where we did country groupings, all the responses for the United States, Canada, the United Kingdom, mainland Europe, and then we grouped Australia and New Zealand together. And all of these different country groupings had less than a 10 percent statistical variability and how they responded to these questions. So that means that no matter where you lived, people responding almost the same exact way to all of these questions. So it's a universal phenomena. Secondly, we had four major findings. And let me address the abduction related questions within my four major findings. First of all, there were hundreds of other smaller findings, but let me just get at the big picture here. OK, as you were saying, alluding to before, most of the research in this field focused mainly on what is called the abduction phenomenon. Even Whitley Streber, when he interviewed me, he said abduction researcher Ray Hernandez. And I said, Whitley, what our survey data revealed is that this is everything but abductions. And what we determined was that only one third of the individuals had what is commonly called an abduction, which is a forced physical taking and being relocated to another place. And we had almost double the number of people that had seen a UFO and had been brought to what we call a matrix reality, which is a non 3D interdimensional reality, almost double the number than people have been abducted abducted. And we just interject here because now you're getting into specifics and people need to go to the website, the free website and find the survey because the summary of it, like a hundred pages of the book Beyond UFO is there for free for people to read and analyze. And you can get so much of this valuable information that is the summation of all these surveys. Amazing, what you just said, four thousand people around the world, you know, cross correlated to see if it's consistent and it is all the rest of this. And the other thing I wanted to point out is so now you're talking about, you know, UFO abduction, UFO abduction, it's all you see on TV. That's all you see in the movies. And now you're saying, well, what I really hear you saying, because I don't want to bury it too much. The other way is there's an element of that that can be interpreted that way. We don't want to take away that experience from people who experience that way. But when you look at the survey data, when you look at Ray's really the results, he says that's a minority experience, a very small part of it, very small part. Yeah. And just even compared to the story that you told us at the beginning, the story you have is a phenomenal account. I don't want to call it a story and a phenomenal account. It is not an abduction account. So we have to figure out what's going on. But part of the part of doing that is we need data. And that's what you've given us. Correct, correct. Most of the matrix reality. I just want to put, you know, you're going to talk in a minute about matrix reality, then you're going to talk about abduction and the reality of that and all these different kind of contact experiences that people have. And I want people to follow what you're talking about, even if they haven't gone and read the research. Yeah, let me address the four major findings and all in sequence. First of all, what we determined is that the overwhelming percentage of these experiences are positive experiences. They're not negative, but if you go to these UFO conferences and if you go to the Internet and numerous websites, you'll think that it's all negative. OK, you'll think that it's all these little evil grays that are doing all of this. Well, please, it's everything but that. Number two. But hold on, I do have to jump in there, Ray, because I think this again has the potential to lead us down the wrong path. I've been down this road like I told you for so many years with NDE's. And if you want to start telling people that their hellish NDE experience isn't significant because it's a majority experience, which it is, you're going to lose an important part of it because it is part of the experience. Correct, correct. We have to understand. It's a small percentage of it. Well, it's not even that. You just said it's a third, you know? So it's not a small. No, no, no, no, no. Let me backtrack. While people have had an abduction, 70 percent now of the abductees call themselves contactees. Why? And again, this gets a little complicated because over time they've had numerous contact experiences. Their experiences change over time from negative experiences to positive experiences. For example, many people start off having a little gray visiting them in their bedroom. Then they're paralyzed and they're being inspected by these grays, OK? Over the years, then people are now having the ability to be brought to a UFO craft, perceived craft. They're moving about the craft over 250 people are actually allowed to operate the craft for the abductees. It's only about 440 people, abductees, OK? And then the roughly 200 in change are able to even operate a craft, OK? And then later on, they begin interacting with non-grays, with human looking beings, and then also many of them with what is called spirit beings, OK? And that's where all these lessons come in. So they might have started off as an abductee with highly negative experiences. But over time, the experiences change. The people that have had that answer the most negative experience, for example, we had this question. How would you describe your experiences? OK, very simple term, positive, negative or neutral? 66% was positive, neutral, 29% and negative was 5%. We asked that question of positive, negative or neutral in multiple ways, over 40 questions, because how you ask a question, you'll get a different response. We even asked that question for the different types of non-human intelligence that people are realizing. For example, the energy being was the number one type of being, not the short grays, 55% of the people had encounters with energy beings. Out of those, only 7% said that that experience is mainly negative. The human looking was 52%, only 5%, it was mainly negative. The short grays, 51% of the people had experiences with short grays, only 11% said that their experiences were negative. In fact, 29%. What about the reptilians? Well, let me go through the different categories. OK, the ghosts in the spirit forms were 47%, 46% said it was positive, 7%, 7% negative, 40%, 47% said it was neutral. OK, now let's skip down a couple of different types of beings now to the reptilians. OK, we had 600, let me do the categories. The energy being was 1,305, human looking, 1,195, the short grays, 1,173, the ghosts and spirits, 1,069, the tall grays, 770, the reptilians were 644 and the insectoid, the mantid beings, were 583. So now let's focus on the reptilians. OK, 644 people had seen them, OK, huge numbers. Out of those 644 people, 17% said that their experiences was positive. 23% stated that their experiences were negative and 60% said that their experiences were neutral. Now, when we turn to Phase 3, where people were asked to write out the details of their contact experiences, we looked at the people that had reptilian contact experiences. Out of those 23% that said it was mainly negative, we looked at what they wrote out and it wasn't that these reptilians were raping their spouse and eating their children and that Barack Obama was a reptilian. No, what it was was the ontological shock of the physicality of that being. You had these beings that were described as 7 to 8 feet tall, 400 to 500 pounds like these massive football players on steroids with a crocodile head, lizard eyes and, you know, greenish, brownish, greenish color. And so when people had these beings most of the time, almost all the time, they just stared and looked at them, OK? OK, but right. Hold on. This I don't know. I'm going to keep interrupting you because this is a total paradigm shift for 99% of people out there. I don't care how much you've studied UFOs. I don't care how on the cutting edge you think you are of conspiracy, alt news, whatever. This is a total paradigm shift for everyone. So like I told you at the beginning, you know, I did this whole thing on the what I think was the fake UFO disclosure, but it's a real disclosure in December 2017, New York Times, Leslie Cain had her on, talked about it, New York Times. Oh, gosh, they really dug into this. Oh, we understood it. And then it finally makes it breaks through Fox News. I just want you to step back and now realize what we're asking people to do. What we're asking people to do is take that leap to say, OK, well, then somebody has to study what's going on. And here's a guy who studied it and he studied it scientifically. And now let's talk about his findings. And we're talking about fricking reptilians versus grays versus spirit beings, and we're comparing income trasting the numbers of the percentage of people who said they had this kind of contact or that kind of contact. I think we need another way to kind of step back and let people absorb what's going on here and what it would even mean to start asking these questions. I want to get to having a level three discussion with you. Talk about the stuff that really interests me, that the cross correlates with what I'm finding out about people who are deeply studying spirituality and near death experiences and non-dual experiences. I don't want to force those questions. We don't have to get there, but I do want to kind of take the audience and take all of us a big step back and realize the world we're entering where we're going to start talking about these things in a real way, because we have to. It's the most important thing we can talk about. So back to the reptilians. Let me interject a skeptic kind of question, because there are a lot of accounts of reptilians having forced sexual contact with people. They may not be in the hundreds of thousands or even the hundreds, but there are those accounts. We have to take them seriously. We can't jam those back into what we normally understand as a spiritual positive contact experience of any kind, whether we're talking about ET contact experience or just the general contact experience. Someone having forced sexual relationships with people in our society, with our morality, we say, no, that shouldn't happen. And yet that is occurring. So I'm okay with your finding because you've convinced me that you've done the work, but the outlying data is interesting to me as well. It's like the hellish NDE's. They may not be a large number, but they're interesting as an outlying piece of information. So what about the sex with alien? Only four individuals stated that out of the 644 people. Are you suggesting that they did not accurately report what happened? I'm not saying that. I'm just saying only four individuals reported. So, but so if, how would we understand that? In the larger context of what we're talking about in terms of contact modalities. What is in this extended consciousness realm, this advanced intelligence realm that is doing that in a way that we would possibly understand? Well, this is where sort of jumping the gun on a couple of additional components here. But what I believe is happening is that non human intelligence can encompass different forms for different reasons. Just like in shamanic experiences, many people describe that they're, you know, physically being torn, torn into pieces, then being rebuilt again. A lot of people experience like death and rebirth numerous times in many paranormal experiences and shamanic type of journeys. I think there's a reason for all these experiences that people are having. And I, and this is where I'm heading towards. Eighty five percent of these individuals have undergone a dramatic, positive transformation of their personality profile. Dr. Kenneth Ring had asked these questions. He had asked close to 60 questions. How were you before? How were you after? And we duplicated his research findings because he had roughly eighty five percent of both the NDE folks and the UFO contact folks underwent the total personality change. It was like a butterfly came out of out of this cocoon. And the cocoon is this experience that people were having. People became much more spiritual, less religious. They no longer feared death. They became more empathic, more loving to the brethren. They became ecologically friendly. All of a sudden they became more consciously aware, etc, etc, etc. It was a totally rebirth of a new personality. We discovered that 85 percent of these people made that transition over a lengthy period of time. Now, as I said before, in the beginning, 37 percent of the individuals initially viewed their experiences as negative. OK, but towards the end, only five percent viewed their experiences mainly negative, even the people have had abductions. Only 30 percent call themselves abductees. But even then, the most negative type of abductees was like less than 8 percent. So it's this traumatic transition that takes place of the individual. So I think these experiences that people are having with these entities, these are being utilized by non-human intelligence to stimulate responses, thoughts, reactions for the people who have had the most negative experiences are the people we determined. We did an analysis of how many experiences you've had. OK, and we group them like from from one to two to three, three to five and then five to ten, ten to 15, 15 to 20, then more than 20. And what we discovered, we did a bar chart on this. We discovered the more experiences you had, the more positive was your outlook of the positivity outlook became much more positive in your responses. And there was the people that only had one or two experiences in particular, the people that had abduction experiences that they were frozen on the table being medically examined. And that's all they had. That's all they can remember. Those are the people who are most traumatized. Because, yes, let me jump in there with a I'm going to jump right ahead. Yeah, I think you said and get into a couple of skeptical questions because this is where the river meets the road. I love everything you're saying. It's it's vital that you're doing this research is vital. But it's also vital that we have this advanced kind of level three dialogue because no one else is having it. Well, this is this is this is the next two findings discussed the initial two, which is that these were overwhelmingly positive experiences. Number two, it resulted in a positive transformation of the experiencer. Number three and four is that these experiences were primarily not physical. They were primarily paranormal. That was number three. Number four is that these experiences involve a manipulation of space time. And that, in turn, leads to the hypotheses that these experiences might be interdimensional. And Jack Valet alluded to that over 45 years ago of the manipulation of space time components. So I think with the paranormal versus the being primarily paranormal and not physical and then the manipulative space time, then we can begin to get into some interesting discussions. My concern is that we're still, despite as far as you are advancing the ball and you are advancing the ball way down the field, that we're still filling this big consciousness question with a bunch of assumptions. And maybe we can't help but do that. And maybe I don't have any way out of that. But my role of Skeptico inquiry to perpetuate doubt in the netty, netty, netty, not this, not this is to kind of constantly poke and point at the the kind of contradictions. I'm going to do an interview in just a couple of weeks with a guy who's a very prominent near death experience researcher. He's also a Christian and he comes at he's he's a solid guy, very open minded guy, but he takes the near death experience accounts of people who've had direct experiences with Jesus. I always want to turn that into you mean Christ consciousness because it isn't Jesus, right? It's at this spiritual dimension. And then there's this discussion about no, you might say that technically, but here are the holes in his hands and here are this. And here is the experience that people have had with Jesus. And then you get into the discussion of the historical Jesus. Well, what do you do with that information? Do you deny that someone has had an experience with Jesus? Or is it my definition of Christ consciousness? No matter which way you turn on that ray, you are kind of stumped because we don't understand the nature in the origin of that experience. And here's what makes it even more difficult. We like, for example, we like the near death experience because it has some kind of medical jumping off point, a neurological jumping off point that has an acknowledged mystery. The brain is functioning at a time when the brain is not supposed to be functioning and they're having this extraordinary experience. So we can shut up all the neuroscientists and say, no, no, no, no. Don't say anything because you don't have any way to explain how they had this experience. So now I can begin talking about that experience. But as soon as we talk about that experience, we wind up in these kind of contradictions. Was it Jesus? Was it not Jesus? If this guy found Jesus when he's dead, what about this person who found Jesus when they're praying at church? And then what about this survey that says it's really not about Jesus? So I'll stop there. That's one. But then I'm going to jump over in a minute and talk about the interview I just did with the very excellent Dr. Jeffrey Martin, who's gone and talked to and done his own work with people who've tried to connect directly with consciousness by using kind of the best of the best techniques of meditation and psychology to remove the mind from this noisy brain that's going on. And what his findings are and how it's really not even as it's problematic, no matter which way we turn. So I've thrown a lot on the table, but we can start right there with Jesus. Impossible to pull that apart without understanding at a level beyond what we could possibly understand the nature of consciousness. That's where I come in. OK, let me give you my personal hypotheses. OK, and this is based upon me speaking almost on a daily basis with UFO contact experiences and these experiences, why they might have seen a UFO and while they might have seen a few quote unquote beings, you know, nonhuman intelligence, the vast majority of their reality are paranormal in nature. OK. And let me give you a couple of illustrations and the conclusion or the hypotheses that I've arrived at. OK. I'm spoken with numerous PhDs that are experiences. One of my best friends here in Miami, I consider the number one contactee in the world. His life over the last 40 years is basically living in another reality. His wife is a PhD psychologist, his daughter is a PhD psychologist. He's a retired federal DEA agent. OK. And he's just an illustration. Several weeks ago, I spoke with a pediatrician that lives in a Midwestern state. And again, this woman has seen nonhuman intelligence, huge UFOs with her husband. She's had a major near death experience that outside of space time. And she said it was almost like an eternity that she was away out of body experiences. But it was mainly a living a life of paranormal experiences. And these are just illustrations of like hundreds of people that I've spoken with, but also the people that have taken our surveys. OK. And that was the third major finding is that these experiences are primarily not physical. They're primarily paranormal in nature and consciousness related. OK. Now let me separate these two components. OK. And these are just illustrations here. I've had people that he and his wife, both high level professionals with advanced degrees, have seen Ganesh. OK. Other people and other people with several witnesses have seen Anubis, the Egyptian God with the dog head. OK. And you name the type of of entity people are seeing. OK. We're talking about thousands of different types of of entities. OK. So to myself, you know, one way of thinking it is, well, Ganesh came from whatever reality Ganesh lives at, you know, interacts with and he came to have give this experience to this person. OK. This other person, my best friend here, has seen Christ several times, a couple of times, you know, with the the wounds. This is a physical being, you know, that has appeared to him. He's seen the Virgin Mary, yet he's not. Catholic or all has rarely ever been in the Catholic Church, has no background in Catholicism. OK. And and so you say to yourself, you know, are all these people seeing all of these different type of beings? Do they really exist? Or many experiencers have spoken that these intelligence can masquerade in different formats for specific, you know, reasons, you know, for teachings to demonstrate whatever objective there is. OK. And that's the hypotheses that I have, that whatever this nonhuman intelligence, we have zero data for that, though. We have we can't even come up with a decent hypothesis for how that would work or to separate how it would work in this case and not that case. You know, it's like when I talk to Dean Raiden, who I have the utmost respect for, but he admits himself. He's new to this whole idea of spiritual realms. And a year ago, if you would even ask him about spirit, he would have kind of chuckled behind his breath. There's no such thing. So once we enter that realm, though, I'm afraid we're filling the vacuum with a bunch of assumptions. What I think where I think we're at is at the point of acknowledging that this is a dimension that we cannot understand. Dean Raiden is not going to be able to pull it back in his lab and measure it. Actually, he is. He's going to pull it back and measure it in his lab. But the results he's going to get are all going to be highly suspect because we have no way of understanding the nature of that reality. And the same thing, I don't know how Jesus exists on that other dimension. But I am not willing to say that there isn't that reality or to reduce it down and kind of reduce it down to a thing of saying, well, that's just the way they appear to kind of teach or this and that. I don't buy it because the other piece of data that I do have that comes back that I don't know. And I'm going to throw this out because I'd be interested to see because this is something you just related to near death experience there. Have you ever heard of Dr. PMH at Waters? Those yes, yes. Yeah. OK, important work. One of the few people who said, hey, you know what? This near death experience, transformational spiritual experience. It ain't all roses and rainbows. These people go through depression. They go through alienation. They go through divorce. They have a hard time both reconciling their experience with their worldly experience, but they especially have a hard time reconciling it with their family and their group. Now you jump over to Dr. Jeffrey Martin, this comprehensive world changing research on non-duality and persistent non-duality consciousness, you know, meditation, enlightenment for a word. Same thing. Don't think you're going to be enlightened and you might feel this incredible inner peace, but don't think it's going to make your life better because you're liable to get divorced, lose your job, lose all your friends and all the rest of that because they're not on board with it. So, you know, there's these once we enter this discussion, this important discussion that we have to have, we have two ways of measuring it. One is the impact it has on us that we can talk about. Like you're going to lose your job, you're fifty percent more likely to get a divorce if you have NDE transformational experience. I don't know if that's the exact number, but it's kind of high. And the same thing if you have enlightenment experience, same thing. I don't know what it is for. So we can measure that and we can talk about that. But we can't talk about people and their encounter with Jesus, just like we can't really talk about their encounter with the reptilians. We just don't know the order in nature of that extended consciousness realm. Correct. Correct. I agree with everything that you've just said. Same thing happens with UFO contact experiencers. It's it's a world shattering paradigm of their reality. And that does affect their family relationship, their jobs, their businesses, their their worldview. But what you have is that your being is being totally deconstructed and reformatted again. And because of that, you lose your friends. You might lose a spouse or relationship, OK? But at the end of it all, you're on your own hero's journey, it seems like for many individuals, because you are you are an experiencer. You've had these realities. You cannot deny it, OK? But there are numerous consequences associated. But in terms of your inner self, your inner being of who you are, there's tremendous positive transformation that results from that. So it's it's it's a dualistic process here. It's like you're being deconstructed, but you're being built up again. And again, it takes time for that building up again process. Now, in terms of the nature of the phenomenon, my perspective and the perspective of many members of our board, including Edgar and Rudy, is that we are just starting to understand what questions to ask, let alone what answers, OK, because we're now starting to understand through this data and be able to see the contact modalities in a more holistic way that this is so freaking complex, OK? Because we're dealing with multi-dimensional realities. We're dealing with manipulations of space time. We're dealing with so many comparative aspects of these phenomenon that are so similar. We're dealing with non-human intelligence. We're dealing with a whole multitude of non-human intelligence that I remember when Jeffrey Mishloff asked Jacques Valais 35 years ago, these complex questions. Jacques Valais did not directly respond to that Mishloff's questions. What he said, you know, Jeffrey, what what I gather is that we just don't understand space time, OK, alluding to that that these phenomenon involve a manipulation of space time. And we just don't understand space time. We don't understand multiple realities. We don't understand whatever this intelligence is. We we still can't get a handle on how it interacts with space time and and multi-dimensional realities of the spirit world, you know, other universes, whatever. These are all issues that we're just starting to understand that they exist. But we have no, we're totally clueless as to how it's all put together and it'll take several generations because before we get to have a better understanding. But at least what we're doing in our organization and our research study is that we are dent of identifying these aspects, these questions. When before no one was asking these questions. I mean, oh, it's so true. Yeah, it's like, look at nuts and bolts, your apology. You go to all of these major UFO conferences. They're still talking about that Tom, the long group or that that secret space program, that man who just retired from the the CIA that was in charge of of UFO research. We're talking about Roswell for the five thousand time, Randall Shim Forest. Oh, here's a new video is going to come out of this of this jet fighter. You know, so my question is what has that paradigm given us in 70 years and my response is very limited. Well, let me ask that question a different way. Who has controlled that the questions? Who's controlled the the creation of that paradigm and the rollout of that? And so, you know, I love the way you put that. And we are totally on the same page, right? And thank God you were out there on that edge doing that work. One other way that I was just alluding to that I think we can connect this to the real world in a way that's important is and I love the term conspiracy theory because it immediately creates this major reaction to people. When if you go and look at who created the term conspiracy theory, who created into this derogatory term that anyone who questions any kind of authority. So, you know, the mis info, dis info aspect of this has to be understood. The history of the UFO movement, of the UFO conference, of the UFO disclosure is a history of misinformation and disinformation. Some of it's been outed. So, you know, when you go to contact in the desert, which you're doing a presentation and and you're doing a presentation at all these other high level UFO conferences, fantastic, got to get that information out there. But you know, there's mis info, dis info stuff going on there. So how are we supposed to and this might be the question to wrap it up because you've been so generous with your time, how do we understand that aspect of it? And more importantly, how do you navigate that going forward with your research and not allow that to be tainted in that way, driving somebody else's agenda rather than the truth agenda, which is what I know you're really all about. It's that's a very difficult question because by nature, I'm a very emotional person. I grew up in New York City in a working class, you know, neighborhood actually right outside New York City in West New York, New Jersey, a factory town, working class neighborhood, you had a, you know, you're always questioning things and you become you're very emotional. And so for me is extremely frustrating because I also utilize those terms. I used to do it publicly. The terms misinformation and disinformation. Now I don't do it publicly anymore. But I view the field of ufology, mainstream materials, this ufology is basically I shouldn't be saying it, but I'll say what the hell as a cesspool of misinformation and disinformation. And what it needs is we need to get some disinfectant via academic research on this phenomenon, which illustrates that this phenomenon is so much more complex than what any of these material rationalist might even speculate it to be. And it's a long term agenda, long term goal. But I think what we need to be able to do is people like yourself, like Jeffrey Mishlove, Dr. Bob Davis, you know, Rudy Shields, Edgar that just passed away and many, many other people that are interested in this relationship between trying to understand what is the relationship between consciousness, our multidimensional reality and contact with non-human intelligence via the contact modalities, we don't have any answers. We're totally clueless as to this relationship. We all hypothesize and speculate that there is that relationship there. And that's what we need to keep on prying, you know, for the rest of our lives so that the next generation will have a much firmer foundation than what I encountered, which is basically you go to the Internet and you get BS, you know, and you go to these ufology conferences. And when I go to these ufology conferences, I don't listen to these lectures, Alex. I basically hang out with the experiencers because they have the kernel of truth of what really is happening. The experiencers. And I always say to everyone, I said, look, don't be waiting for disclosure to happen from the top down because disclosure is happening right now from the bottom up from the experiencers. And I think as long as we are able to really continue to educate humanity of this phenomenon and to do comparative research studies of how our NDE is related to OBEs, how they related to UFO contact experiences, what are the similarities with remote viewing the people that are seeing ghosts and spirits and the channeling? How is all of this phenomenon interrelated? If we continue pushing that envelope, I think it's going to be heading towards a better understanding of our reality, which at this point we're totally clueless. Well, that's maybe an awesome way to kind of turn the corner on this interview. Ray, you have so many things going on. I mentioned your presentation at Contact in the Desert. You also have a volume two of the book coming out, other book projects. Tell folks what's coming out right now and then how they can stay on top of this important stuff that you're doing. We have a website and the title of the website is Consciousness and contact.org. My email that people want to reach me is info at experiencer.org info at experiencer.org. We do have available chapter one from our first book beyond UFOs, The Science of Consciousness and Contact with Nonhuman Intelligence, chapter one, which is over 120 pages, which is a summary of our statistical research study that's free for the public. We also have several other chapters that we have available for free. One is a chapter on medical healings. We identified 50 percent of the people that took our survey have had a medical healing. And that chapter, the analysis of that data was written by Dr. Joseph Berks, who I believe you met. He's a retired emergency room physician. And it was also jointly written by Preston Bennett, who just came out with a new book on 300 cases of medical healings by UFO related nonhuman intelligence. So it's a valid phenomenon, fully documented, but yet is not discussed at these conferences or in the field of ufology. So that's consciousness and contact.org. You download these chapters as well as the conclusion to our chapter, our book written by the late Brad Steiger, which is really the father of paranormal research. For those that don't know, Brad Steiger, he has written over, goodness, 200 books on various topics within the paranormal phenomenon. And he passed away right before we published our book. He actually wrote that chapter, I believe, in hospice care. And and then we're working on two new projects. One project is a scientific documentary which is going to be focusing on the paranormal contact modalities. And it's going to be presenting various scientific theories, mainly physics theories and some psychological theories of of the paranormal contact modalities and data from our research study and commentary from many experiences besides researchers. We're going to have Raymond Moody there, Jeffrey Long, Dr. Bob Davis, Jeffrey Mishloff, Dr. John Alexander and many, many, many other scientists, Dr. Gary Schwartz that we've interviewed for the last two years. And then the other project is a tangential project to the documentary, which which is a hypothetical book and extremely important. This book is really much more important than our first book because what this book is as follows and the way this topic was introduced was I was having a conversation with Dr. John Clemo and John was a tenured professor of psychology for 45 years, mainly focusing on the paranormal. He's written books about NDE's, OBE's, his most famous book is on channeling. He's written numerous articles on on consciousness, the paranormal. I mean, this man is an example of research on the contact modalities and consciousness. So John about two years ago had surgery for a brain cancer, and now he's much, much, much better. But when he recovered, I asked him, I said, look, John, you know, before you you you transcend, OK, I want you to write an article on on this thesis question. What is the relationship between consciousness or cosmology and contact with non human intelligence via a unified contact modalities? OK, because I had spoken with so many parapsychologists, so many of the people that you have interviewed. Dean Raiden, for example, is a key example. And I would ask him, I said, look, Dean, you know, do you suspect that all of these paranormal contact modalities might be interrelated? He says, yes. I says, well, have you written any article on that? He says, no, has anyone else written an article on about that? He says, not that I know of. I said, but why not? Since this is the key fundamental question we're dealing with. And his response was that, look, you know, my plate is full already dealing with ESP, you know, and and and his work on precognition and the work that he's been doing at IONs for many years. His plate is full, let alone try to introduce other complicated topics. And I've spoken with many, many other researchers, Stanley Kripner as well and many, many other parapsychologists, Jeffrey Mishloff as well. So I asked John, I said, look, you know, would it be possible for you to write an article that would be a hypothetical article, a speculative article as to what the hell is in your brain? What is your best hypothesis as to what the hell is going on? OK. And he agreed to. So then I immediately said, why am I limiting it just to John? Why don't I ask it to Bob Davis? Why don't I ask it to you? Why don't I ask it to Gene Dean Raiden, Jeffrey Long, Raymond Moody? You know, so many of these people involved in these paranormal experiences asked him a question that said, can you write a chapter which is a speculative chapter? What is your best guess of how all of this is interrelated? How it's put together, you know? Well, and again, very important, the thesis statement. What is the relationship between consciousness or cosmology? And contact with non human intelligence via a unified paranormal contact modalities. Rudy's writing an article for it and so many other people. And so I believe that that book is going to be extremely important because you're going to be getting the hypotheses, the best hypotheses of these great minds that have been working on this central thematic topic question most for over 30 years. So it's like getting all right, Dean, what is your best shot as to what the hell is going on? And that is due in the spring, due to be published in the spring of 2020, and it's going to be an extremely important book. And what I tell everyone, we are establishing a new paradigm, a new paradigm of reality. OK, and the beginning, very few people are going to understand it. It's going to be totally dismissed, certainly by the field of mainstream ufology, most of mainstream NDE experiencers, certainly the consciousness study scholars, etc, etc, etc. But what it's going to do is it's going to establish a baseline for future discussions over multiple generations because we're establishing a new paradigm. Well, that is absolutely sounds like the right thing at the right time. I'm not surprised. And if there's anyone who can bravely launch on to a new paradigm, it's you, Mr. Ray Hernandez. You've just done such incredible work. We could go on and on and we've had some great off-air conversations as well. I think your work is tremendous, but your energy that you put behind this and the bravery that you've shown in kind of launching into this is just truly amazing. Is there anything else we need to talk about before I let you go get on with your normal life? Well, I just want to thank you personally, Alex, because when I first had my conversation with you, I was still traumatized by all of these experiences. I'm sure you probably knew at the time talking to me. I was literally in in the middle of an ontological shock of dealing with this reality. And once I managed to get a better understanding of this phenomenon that indeed it was consciousness base and that consciousness was the key to all of this. We can have a much more additional discussions later on in this topic of consciousness, which we didn't fully fully get into. But you were one of the people that I turned to that really helped me out to educate me. So I want to tell all the audience members out there that indeed are interested in the paranormal contact modalities and its relationship with consciousness to keep on tuning in to your podcast because they're so extremely informative and I just want to thank you. That's a nice array. I appreciate it. You know, I think even though I'm not an experiencer in the sense that UFO experiencers or non-human contact experience, although I don't know about that, you know, there's a certain connection that we all have of that feeling of feeling a little less alienated when someone does reach out. And I remember when you reached out to me, that wasn't my thought. My thought was, hey, terrific, man, there's somebody else who's in the process of going through this waking up transformational thing. And he seems like such an incredible, cool guy. I want to connect and talk to this guy. So that's why I'd encourage anyone who's out there who has a similar kind of experience, you have made it easier. Hopefully I've made it easier too. But you've taken that a giant step forward and take in terms of making it easier for people to, we hate to say advance, but that's what you're saying. And that's what I'm saying. You know, this is the hero's journey, like you're saying. And we're just all trying to help each other on that journey. Most definitely. Thank you, Alex. Take care, my friend. God bless you. Thanks again to Ray Hernandez soon to be Dr. Ray Hernandez, this guy, you believe it or not. He's working on a PhD from Berkeley to go along with his master's degree from Cornell and is Juris Doctorate, practicing lawyer. This is one smart guy and a hard working guy who's put an incredible amount of effort into this very, very important work. I can't emphasize enough how significant this contribution is to our overall understanding of what I keep calling the extended consciousness realm or we could just call consciousness if we want. So the question that falls out of that is a natural one and it's a big one. What does E.T. have to do with our understanding of human consciousness? And wow, there's so many ways to take that. And I'm tempted to jump in there and outline them all, but I'm not going to do that. I'm going to leave that for you. And I hope you take a stab at it. And if you want to share that with me, skeptical form is where I hang out with folks and chat about these ideas. So you can find me over there. Of course, you can always email me or try and track me down on Facebook or however, I just always emphasize that I enjoy connecting with people who connect with this show. So if that's you, take the leap and reach out and I will reach back. Be sure to check out the skeptical website. Over 400 shows all there available for you to download for free. You can follow my entire journey over however many years it's been through all these interviews on these deep questions of who are we, why are we here? And what does this thing called consciousness have to do with it all? Please check it out. And until next time, take care and bye for now. So thanks for watching this video. And if it wasn't really a video, but just an audio start as a video, I apologize. But there's more videos out there as well. But please check out the skeptical website. You can see it here. We cover a lot of different stuff you might be interested in relating to controversial science and spirituality. A lot of shows up there. Over 350 of them are so all free, all available for download. So do check it out.