 Welcome to CTN member highlight. I'm Leslie McVane and today my guests are Bob and Sally Schadble With main voices for Palestinian rights. Thank you for coming again. I know we had a an in-depth Interview recently, but this is something that's ongoing and will be for a while so I thank you for coming back to talk more about what is happening in Gaza and With the Palestinian Israeli conflict. Thank you for having us back. Well, where shall we start? Bob you you have some things you want to say about maybe update of what's happening now Maybe I'll start with some statistics that I have here. Okay that That are alarming and they're not even accurate. They're the numbers are going up all the time 900 as of July 26th, which was just a few days ago 999 Palestinians have been killed in this 20 odd day conflict including at least 760 civilians of whom 226 are children and 117 are women 6233 Palestinians have been injured including 1,949 children and 1160 women 46 Israelis have been killed Including two civilians and 43 soldiers in addition to one foreign national 22 hospitals clinics and medical centers have been hit and damaged by the shelling 215,000 Displaced people Hosted in UN RWA government schools in informal shelters or with host families These are the United Nations statistics that are put out daily You can go to the website and find these and the numbers as they say here are going up Since the the very short ceasefire the other day They have recovered more bodies and they have not been identified until they are those numbers don't get Actually, I did go on to get the updated figures and there are now 1,088 Palestinians killed and it's estimated that 90 percent of the deaths are civilian deaths and Israeli deaths are 53 and fewer than 10 percent are civilian deaths Which does not mean that any is no, but to give a sense of the of the Proportion of power and the effects of the power being used against the Cossons, right? Well, it is it is extremely complicated and I think the world watching There's a movement now, you know, just just stop have have another ceasefire I know Hamas has agreed to a ceasefire and reportedly the Israelis have not they've they've they've said no so Do you know any updates on that and what's happening as far as? Stopping this I know that it was just it just lasted for 12 hours the other day And they were able to get some very much needed supplies into to the hospitals and the and the schools and people you know it's The whole ceasefire story is interesting right now because What the Israeli? Pro-Israel press and not all of the Israel press is pro Netanyahu But they have been claiming all along that it's Israel that wants to ceasefire. It's Hamas who doesn't They say it was Hamas and Islamic Jihad who rejected the first offer of a ceasefire Which is put out by Israel and Egypt I Can't remember if we talked about this in the last interview or not But maybe it bears repeating That ceasefire had been made up by Egypt whose leaders hate Hamas and by Israel And it was done with no consultation with Hamas Hamas found out about it through the Through the what do you call it social social media, but meanwhile Hamas has offered its own ceasefire Proposals and we hear so little about them if any well It was actually a big headline in the paper yesterday about that Saying that Hamas has asked for another ceasefire and that Israel has Said no was that the I'm not sure Hamas one thing that they were asking for a ceasefire short one to Be able to handle some of the wounded, but then there's a longer proposed one that has ten points to it Was that the one that was reported? I'm I'm a I'm not sure about that. Okay I think it's interesting just to know what some of those points were Because they are eminently reasonable and fair and they're offering Israel if it will Have a ceasefire on the basis of these conditions They're offering as well a ten-year truce a ten-year ceasefire and maybe we can talk about this a little more later But the record actually shows that Hamas has been far better at abiding by ceasefires than has Israel But a couple of them. Let me just mention them Hamas says we would like an international seaport and airport under UN supervision Now what's wrong every they want a seaport, you know They've asked for an international border presence around their borders if they're the ones wanting to Start the violence. They wouldn't be asking for international troops and monitors around there. They are asking for a revitalization of the Gaza industrial zone They're asking that their fishermen be able to go out ten kilometers to fish now all of these are eminently Reasonable requests it's saying we want to get on with our lives. We want to develop our economy and Everything that's asked for the other six. They're all really essentially asking Israel to abide by international law and We're not hearing about these ten proposals. We're not hearing about how reasonable Hamas and Islamic Jihad are being What a reasonable diplomatic gesture this is That's part of our Problem it's part of Sally's and my concern We think if the American people are properly informed by the media That they will begin to see that my there's another whole story here that which we need to be hearing about What happens I think Much of the time is you start to have a conversation with someone and then they go immediately to Hamas. Why doesn't Hamas? stop and You know, I Understand that question and such and yet I think Understanding the context the history of what the Gaza people have the Palestinian people have been dealing with Helps to shed light on that I recently wrote a little thing in my Facebook that I'd like to share with you because this kind of gives a sense of I think where the Palestinian people are coming from as related to The the resistance that that is being The risks resistance that Hamas is providing is this the one. Yeah, can I just preface? Um People will say and I hear them say it. Why won't Hamas just stop firing the rockets? Why won't they accept a ceasefire under almost any conditions? All right, and I think what Sally if it's what I'm thinking of that she wrote on her Facebook page It gets at why they won't do that and it's in response to Huffington post Essay called from Gaza. I would rather die in dignity than agree to living in an open-air prison So this is what I wrote Palestinians are tired of being bullied and humiliated They are tired of having hope for a better future for their children only to have their children killed in yet one more operation whatever it is Their lives snuffed out between an inhale and exhale of one breath in the next They are tired of waiting for the world to wake up and for someone with the power to say no You will not be a bully anymore They are tired of being blamed for the deaths of their own people and Tired of being accused of being terrorists when they act in resistance to an occupying Fourth Force that has the fourth strongest military in the world They are tired of waiting to die a slow death Well, and I think it Even that reinforces that there are so many different factions here that we We do as I think Americans get confused by We have fatah, we have Hamas and then the Palestinian people I think of as being separate from either of those factions and the Hamas is In their doctrine wanting to destroy the state of Israel That's part of it. On the other hand, they have brought social services to the Gaza Strip that were never there Where they're not there before we're not available health care schools orphanages food So you're getting this mixed message Across the board and the victims are the people of Palestine the everyday people who are losing their lives hoping that Hamas and Fatah whoever they're supporting is helping them make some inroads into having a normal life Because they have been denied by the Israeli government. They have been really Imprisoned as you say in this open-air prison You know a an analogy that I like to use actually I'm a psychotherapist I've been in the mental health field for about 30 over about 30 years and I've worked extensively with the victims of domestic violence and child abuse that sort of thing and One of the things that we have come to in the psychology field. We we talk about are the IPs the identified patient or identified problem And that is in a family system where there is violence and abuse trauma that Different people as you say play different roles in that family system You've got the parents you've got the children you oftentimes have a child It's not uncommon to see a child who's the peacemaker a child who is the one that's going to hide and Try very hard not to be seen and then the one that oftentimes ends up in jails or ends up in trouble in school the IP the identified problem and that's the one who is acting out in response to what is happening at home right What we've come to see and in is that you can treat the identified problem But the problem doesn't go away because there's ongoing violence and abuse So what we need to do in those situations is is go to the root of the problem as best as we can and often it's in the context of You know the parents own histories the kind of environment they were raised in etc But I think it's important to think about that in the context of this Conflict so yes, we can continue to go to you know, this is the problem But what is the problem? Who's got the power? Who has the power to determine? The health and well-being of the family. Well, it's oftentimes the parents That can make a difference and oftentimes it's the wife is or the the weaker of the Duo in the family system is also terrified and silent So, you know, we need to tend to What needs to be tended to and when we go back to the Israeli-Palestinian situation and again, we look at the numbers We don't have to say who's right and who's wrong, but what do the numbers tell us the numbers give us without any Contest I think Where the power is and that is where we need to be we need to be focusing on that and why? Why is there acting out? Right if that's what the world is is is saying and and and with all of this we lose sight we focus on these Power sources whatever degree of power they have and lose sight of of the faces of these these are not Numbers they're people and everyone has a name. Yes, and everyone has an age from little babies to old people are being killed Yes, and being just thrown out there if not killed displaced and one of the things you talk about being a psychologist They're in great need of people to help Them these families and these children process what's happening outside their door around them in their lives every day They haven't had a normal day for a long time Yes, I could I am I want to come back to the Hamas Charter because Over and over That's brought up and there's so many people who think if you say the word Hamas if you say the word Hamas Charter If you say rockets flying out they think those words Now in the discussion because everybody understands the truth. Well, they don't end the discussion There's another document that needs to be part of that conversation and it is a doctrine I mean a document put out by the Jewish National Fund in the year 1888 now this goes back a while and I want to quote here it it says it stated to aim is quote to Redeem the land of Palestine as the inalienable possession of the Jewish people now This was 1888 that this was said Everything that the Zionist as they call themselves have done since 1888 Right on up through all of the liberal labor governments and the Likud governments Right on up to that in Yahoo have all acted on the basis of that Charter and that statement and I'm referring now to of course Mr.. Yet in yahoo's constant assertion we have the right to expand our settlements also The Israeli government is composed of a number of parties that they could they have coalition governments Not a single party in their government Recognizes the right of the Palestinians to even have a state and unlike Hamas Israel has the power to carry out that aim which is to deny them a state There are a couple or three parties in the palace in the Israeli government Which actually state in their charters that there will be no Palestinian state People need to know these things because they keep just focusing on that Hamas says we want to destroy all right Israel is destroying the Palestinians hope for a state so We also have to when somebody makes a charge or a claim an accurate or a threat One intelligent thing to do is to assess how capable are they of carrying it out There's nobody in his right mind on the planet who thinks that Hamas has any chance whatsoever of destroying Israel If one did have that thought I would invite them to just look at the numbers which you cited and which Sally cited That's happening today. Where is this firepower that Hamas has so? Yes, Hamas states that in its Charter Oftentimes charters are just rhetorical statements not policies for action and Hamas has said repeatedly that if a an agreement is made and if the Palestinian people not Fata not the PA But the Palestinian people in a free well-monitored plebiscite Agree to that peace agreement Hamas will accept it Hamas will accept it Hamas is called a terrorist group Terrorism is generally decide decided as action or a terrorist group is a group that Determines that it will try to harm civilians On that basis Hamas does qualify as a terrorist group Not that they aim specifically for civilians, but they do aim their rockets toward cities However, again look at the figures so far. They've killed two civilians Israel has killed What about 800 90 percent 90 percent, right? So and theirs have been labeled targeted That's right. Yeah, that is what we call state terrorism if Israel Israel has killed what would a figure Sally? I think five times as many women and children five times I think around 550 five times as many women and children as Hamas has killed Israeli soldiers So who is carrying out the terrorism here now? I want to quote you something if you'll allow me and then I'll tell you who said it. Okay, okay? This is it would be a shocker. I think for people Quote neither Jewish ethics nor Jewish tradition can disqualify Terrorism as a means of combat. We are very far from having any moral qualms as far as our national war goes We have before us the command of the Torah whose morality surpasses that of any other body in of law in the world the Torah says quote Ye shall blot them out to the last man in quote from the Torah But first and foremost Terrorism is for us a part of the political battle being conducted under the present circumstances And it has a great part to play Quote, I mean following a great part to play which is Speaking in a clear voice to the world. It proclaims our war against the occupier Now that statement was made by a former Prime Minister of the state of Israel named Yikshak Shamir. It was made in 1943 when he was with what was called the Stern gang and the Stern gang and Ergun another group was headed by Menachem Begin who later became another prime minister both of those men and their organizations Were recognized by the British by the Americans by many prominent Americans like Albert Einstein Hannah Oren and others as terrorists. He made that statement in 1943 so for Israel to act as if it has the high moral ground here Is I'm trying to think of a nice way to say it. It's just unfounded Mm-hmm. They do not have the nice more the high moral ground, right? you talk you you mentioned earlier about Hamas and and About the Palestinian people, but you did brush over Fata. So Let's talk about them for a little bit that group that did have an Arrangement of some kind of a treaty They were corrupt well holding government office in Palestine And which is why Hamas took so many seats during the what? Outside observers said was a good election. It was not a corrupt election So Hamas gained some favor because people were tired. I guess of the corruption from Fata Um, but they are a voice there They are the president is from that organization president of Palestine But they've been kind of a quiet voice during this conflict. Do you want to address that a bit? well Yeah Fata and The head of the Palestinian authority who is Makmoud Abbas Have of course had a long history of conflict with Hamas and our government and Israel's government has done all it could to foster to nurture to encourage that conflict between the two of them Because I believe and others are saying Israel is able as long as those two sides are divided Israel can say as they have said What's the point even making a peace treaty with mr. Abbas? He's got a unified disunified unified people there So what would what would be controlling Hamas? There are a number of people now who are saying that the reason that mr. Netanyahu lied And I am deliberately using that word because it can be nothing else He lied to the American pup to the Israeli public to the world when he said we know Hamas was behind this Because Hamas was not I'm talking about the three teenagers But many believe and I do that he made that claim because his nightmare is That Hamas and Fata would form a united government and then have a united front with which to face Israel's occupation he wants to do all he can to break that apart and Mr. Abbas Has been In my reading of it Luke warm and supporting Hamas in this battle. He's been very quiet. He's been very quiet He in part has felt the need to be Because he gets so much pressure from our government who tell him if you don't do what we want you to do We will cut off all aid to you I did to what extent he's quiet and I just don't know the answer to this whether or not he sort of hopes that Hamas Will be defeated But I don't think he's that stupid. I don't think he's that stupid a man because For Hamas to be defeated does not mean that the People in Gaza are going to suddenly really want to follow Fata Let's bring this back right here to Portland, Maine last Friday in Monument Square you I believe Main citizens for main voices main voices for Palestinian rights Organized the event in Monument Square Do you want to talk a little bit about what the purpose was and What the response was from the people who came and listened to what was said that day? Well, let me quickly mention that we also had some co-sponsors of that event who were supporting us and that was peace action, Maine Code Pink, Maine and Pax Christy, Maine. Okay our aim was to Rally people here to show our friends and we don't mean that just generic friends only we do regard those people as our friends but we have personal friends back in both Gaza and and the West Bank Wanted to show them that there are people even in a little state of Maine Who are listening to their cries and are supporting them? We also Wanted to educate the public so we had tables filled with very good information that you're not likely to find in the regular press and We were had people passing those out to pedestrian traffic moving all around that area. We wanted to do that We also wanted to generate more energy for the calls and We have done so Sally tells me she's sort of our social media Expert and the monitoring and she tells me that we've received more hits on our website, right? And more likes on MVPR's Facebook page in the last two weeks And we had received in the entire preceding year taken all together one other thing too is that it is this this issue this tragic issue is Rallying people that have not been we've not seen before So it is a very diverse group of people. We have young people. We have people of different ethnic backgrounds and people representing the immigrant population we have You know people of all faith traditions Muslims Christians. I'm Buddhist and Jews and Jews We have seeds of peace was present last last week and both again Christians Muslims and Jews so this is not again an issue of religion It is an issue related to human rights Yeah, yeah, and we've had such an outpouring. I've been I've been busy just about What is it 18 hours a day now? Trying to respond to emails. We're getting so much, but let me mention I'm afraid we're gonna work close to running out of time But I want to mention what's on that side What are we going to do moving forward? We are not letting up not at all We have a series of plans coming up. We're bringing speakers in we're going to do marches We're going to do more rallies. We are going to put heat We think on our two senators who have voted for every Appropriations bill to fund Israel with military hardware to do the killing that we see going on If we take the amount of money, which Israel is getting from us main just main taxes over the 10-year span 209 2009 to 2018 is seventy three million $750,000 that money would buy primary health care for each year of those 10 for 59,000 mainers so Why do they keep getting away with those votes? It's because they are believing false things So we're starting an outrageous truth campaign What is an outrageous truth and outrageous truth is actually a quite simple plain fact-based truth Which stuns people stuns them into outrage when they have been fed for all of their lives a Steady line of lies outrageous lies So we're going to be presenting the outrageous truth. All right, so they can go to this Web page yes and learn more about what it is right and in the meantime all we can hope is that this ends a the people of Palestine and Israel you know deserve better than their governments and then that these people who really are Fighting instead of talking and living together at this Friday at the Friday first start first Friday art walk We will be out definitely down at the Connery Square and we have a table We can have material we're going to be trying to pass things out anybody wants to join us go to that website Thank you for coming on and I thank you for presenting a side that people maybe are not getting on a regular basis And we'll talk again. I hope so. Thank you Leslie. Thank you Leslie. Bye. Bye