 Let me welcome all of you. Welcome to the Future Transform. I'm delighted to see you here today. We have a fantastic guest and vital subject and really looking forward to our conversation. Today I'm absolutely delighted to welcome Dr. Kelly Mack. You see, we've been thinking and working at the Future Transform about the question of equity for the past two years very closely. We've been tracking this and discussing it and exploring it in multiple directions. This is the first time, however, that we're looking at equity in the light of STEM disciplines. How can we get more underrepresented populations into STEM majors? How can we get them to graduate successfully? Dr. Mack is someone who works on this from the wonderful position of being the VP for undergraduate STEM education at the American Association of Colleges and Universities, which is an enormous organization that covers a great, great network of campuses. She's also the executive director of Project Kaleidoscope. So she's here to show us what she's learned about how best to support underrepresented minorities in STEM and what we can do moving forward. Let me beam her up on stage so she can join us. Welcome, Dr. Mack. Hi, Brian. How are you? Is my audio okay? Your audio is crystal. Beautiful. Great. Great. And please call me Kelly. Okay, I can do that. Because we're going to be having conversation, right? I know. I know, but not everybody does that. So I have to err on the side of Britain's Kelly. It's funner this way. I agree. You can call me Brian or that hairy guy either way. Kelly, first of all, welcome. Thank you for taking an hour out of your busy schedule to talk with us. I really appreciate that. Thanks for having me. Glad to be here. Oh, good. Well, we have a tradition of asking people to introduce themselves in an unusual way. That is to ask you, what are you going to be working on for the next year? What are the big projects, the big topics, the big ideas that are uppermost in your mind? Yeah, that is an interesting way of introducing myself. So I just want to say hi to everyone and thank you so much for being here. This is my first time using the Shindig platform. And so I'm just having fun right now. I really like this platform. I want to say that the biggest thing that we are working on for the next year is ourselves. We've been through a lot as a result of the pandemic as well. And we know that our colleagues are going through a lot. We want to be a refuge for STEM faculty. We know that they're being called upon to do such herculean work right now. And I know you've seen Twitter is just all of us with lamentations of exhaustion and burden and depression and overwhelm. And because we are so committed to being a resource for STEM faculty, we want to make sure that we're doing our work. So we're taking time to reflect. We're taking time to ask critical questions of ourselves. We are taking time to check in with ourselves also and make sure that we're okay as well. Outside of ourselves, outside of AACNU, we're getting all geared up for the STEM conference, which is first week in November and November 4th to 6th. And it is going to be virtual. I'm excited about our lineup of speakers. It's coming together really, really nicely. And I'm just so, so thrilled to have a platform where we're able to welcome new perspectives on STEM teaching, STEM learning. We're able to really thread through this theme of inclusive excellence, not just as the mission of AACNU, but it really is apparent in everything that we do in the STEM conference. From the speakers that we choose to the participants that show up to who gets selected for our pre-conference workshops, it is really, really out there. I'm getting some feedback for you. You still okay? I'm still okay. You still sound very good. Okay, great. We are also on Tuesday of next week. We are launching our writing institute. It's called Keystroke. And it is a part of the Center for the Advancement of STEM Leadership. And we're funded by NSF for this Center. And it focuses on leadership at HBCU and specifically leadership for broadening participation. We're going deep into understanding what it is about the role of leadership and how it has translated into the disproportionate success of HBCU in graduating Black STEM graduates. Bachelor's, Master's, PhD degrees and the STEM disciplines. So starting next Tuesday morning at 8 a.m. and every Tuesday morning at 8 a.m. thereafter until about the middle of March when we actually have the institute. We start meeting for writing sessions. And there's not a lengthy presentation. It's just whoever comes, whoever registers. And we start off with a mindfulness meditation because we want to make sure that we are grounding this work around writing and the narratives of HBCU STEM faculty in the traditions of African American culture. And so we start off by getting in touch with that part of our history. And then we just write. So we start in small doses. The first one is 30 minutes. So we'll do 30 minutes for a couple of weeks and then we'll graduate to an hour. And then we'll graduate to 90 minutes. And then we'll graduate to the entire institute, which is in the middle of March. So just really excited because it's me also making time to do the writing that needs to be done. Other than that, we are also looking at our institutes for next summer and we're asking ourselves some really tough questions about whether or not it should be virtual or in person or whether or not we should do both. There have been some huge advantages of being able to do virtual institutes. And our institutes are a little different in that they're very interactive and high touch. And it requires people to be up and out of their seats. Like we take active learning to a new level at our institutes and we want to be careful before we start to do that in person. We want to make sure it's safe for everyone. But one of the things that doing it virtually helped us do was just invite so many people in who otherwise couldn't have been able to attend an in-person institute. So we had faculty from the West Coast for whom travel to the East Coast is sometimes cost prohibitive. We had new moms with newborns, a couple of moms with newborns on the shoulder and they're participating in these institutes and just getting an opportunity that they otherwise would not have been able to take advantage of. So lots of hard decisions that we have to make as well as just getting ramped up and getting ready for all of the things that we want to offer to STEM faculty because of that. That sounds like an awful lot and of an awful lot of great stuff too. I really admire your stepped sessions of writing increasingly more over time. Yeah it helps. It's difficult especially when you're starting out and our schedules are so hectic and so crazy and to just say I'm going to sit down and write for four hours today or I'm going to sit down and write for two hours today is not always really feasible and it's not always really practical and when we read much of the literature that talks about how writing is done how effective writing is done it's usually not the style that we might be used to from undergrad where you just kind of cram it all in because it's due next week or it's due tomorrow but our goal is also to move faculty and ourselves into a habit of writing just a regular habit of writing. We did the first one I want to say we started in January of this year we started with weekly sessions leading up to a virtual institute and it was interesting we usually get faculty leaving our institutes saying oh that was great I really accomplished a lot but this time the response and the feedback was when are we going to start again I missed the Tuesday mornings you know I've been doing the Tuesday mornings and are you going to do the Tuesday mornings again and it's a different kind of feedback for us it's a little bit more I think than just participants or attendees saying that was really great you know I've got a lot out of it and I'm going to go forth and and do well um but this feels like faculty saying to us we appreciate just the opportunity to be in community with you and and with each other and I'm not gonna tell you Brian the mindfulness meditations are just extraordinary for us um the way I'm sorry why is that I I think there are lots of reasons um what I am seeing and sensing is that more often than not participating in a workshop or an institute it's a thing to do like I got to be there at eight I'm going to be there at eight I'm going to do this I'm going to participate raise my hand etc we work really hard and making sure that when faculty are arriving at our door virtual or in person that we are offering them something that is restorative and our mindful meditation mindfulness meditations early in the morning are just that right it's a moment to just stop and pause to recognize and honor our humanity to recognize and honor the busyness and and to rise above it for just a few moments and be able to look down on it as opposed to being in the middle of it while it's swirling all around you so we we start at eight and we we actually close the door the virtual door at eight right so that we don't have people who might be late coming in and interrupting the flow of the meditation and everybody comes like at quarter up right so they can get ready the imposition because as soon as eight comes we do it depends on how long the session is so for a 30 minute session we might do five or ten minutes of meditation for the 90 minute session the meditation might be for a little longer 15 or 20 minutes and it is a time also for us to just be in community with each other and and be in touch with a higher purpose that is calling us to do the kind of work that we're doing um in a moment to just be centered with ourselves and with the work that's very very powerful that's uh that's a fantastic I don't think service is the right word that's a a terrific source for AAC and you to offer it thank you I do I yeah it's not just a service but it is a service um and and that's how I'm viewing it I I was a faculty I was faculty member for I taught biology I am a physiologist by training um and I understand I get it um I struggled with it I I struggled with the busyness I struggled with the overwhelm and it took a physical toll and while I was experiencing that I didn't have the skill set to to manage it I I didn't know what to do with the stress and the angst it wasn't until much later in my career that I developed the skill set um otherwise I'd probably still be faculty if I knew how to manage it and so I carry that with me in the work that I do now and my goal is that when someone comes into our space whether it's virtual um or in person that they leave feeling better than when they arrived yes there will be some things that we will all learn from each other yes there will be some things um some some tangible things that our participants will walk away with but it's also important to me that we have spent some time honoring the entire faculty person and honoring honoring everyone's humanity and and respecting the way that they are arriving when they come to us and usually it's it's it's weariness and and beaten down from a tough academic year or from a tough semester or from a tough half of semester and and I always want to be sensitive to that I think it makes a difference I'm so glad to hear that um I think I think the whole participant swarm I think people are just thinking hard about this we have a quick question from uh Charles Finley and we just put this on the screen regarding that are the meditations guided yes hi Charles thank you for your questions yes they are so uh Stephanie Briggs uh is our I call her our mindfulness teacher and uh the way we started um even talking about mindfulness came out of uh an initiative that we were uh implementing um our tides program teaching to increase diversity and equity in STEM and the initial um cohort of tides institutions was primarily comprised of computer science faculty and uh it was a three-year long professional development initiative uh in the first year we did a really deep dive into uh the social science literature uh getting into a lot of the radical social science literature the second year we looked at uh uh cultural competencies and then in the third year we um turned to mindfulness and it was a way of kind of bringing us full circle because when we started in the first year looking at the social science literature it was about um implicit biases and and those things that we do about thinking about them very often so we brought that full circle to mindfulness as a way of saying for ourselves what is that we can do now that helps us confront the biases that we have on a day to day even moment by moment um moment by moment um process and it was so well received and I don't know if it was like just well received or so well received I felt like it was such a risk with computer scientists and I was nervous about it yeah and and I didn't know if they were just going to just say oh this is ridiculous Cal like we're out of here we are so on the plane now but they didn't and and they were just it was just so well received and and so appreciated by this group and we have been working with Stephanie ever since um and anytime there is a need for us to kind of pause and and take a breath um and and integrate that into the greater work that we do I take full advantage of it so uh Stephanie Briggs is there for us for our writing institute uh last year when we hosted our first virtual STEM conference uh that was really a time um for us to be thinking about healing and thinking about what is it that we can offer to our colleagues who were just slammed in the middle of the fall semester and it just looking nothing like what we were um used to and so we took every morning of the STEM conference and provided mindfulness meditations and so almost any institute that you come to now at AACNU will have some element of mindfulness we really do promote the value of reflection and we use mindfulness as a way of our getting to that rapidly and very deeply and I can see it doing that um I can see that just the way you're talking about it now doing that for for all of us the friends let me pause for a second I've asked a couple of questions but that's not my job my job is to help you with your questions and and your comments and you can see Charles Finley already led the way with his first so the floor is yours what would you like to ask either about the programs that Kelly has just described including the writing program the mindfulness exercises or what would you like to ask her about STEM education and equity again you can just use that raised hand button to join us on stage I promise we'll be as nice as we possibly can be even if you don't have a beard I'm glad to see you um and just or click the Q&A button and as Charles just did now while people are gathering their thoughts and prepping their questions I wanted to read one question that came from a longtime friend of the program who couldn't make it right now he might be able to join us in a few minutes okay but he asked a very specific question how are STEM student issues mirrored by STEM faculty DEI issues I'll read that lots everyone can hear that again sorry how are STEM student issues mirrored by STEM faculty DEI issues and you know I'm just gonna put this up on the screen so everyone can see it too let me just paste that up there yeah so that's I love the question and it's it's one that I've been thinking of of late and here's why we talk about students especially from marginalized groups needing to feel a sense of belongingness needing a nurturing environment which to learn and to grow and I don't know that we've done enough as faculty to do that for ourselves and when I think about what's in the literature when I think about the ways in which STEM reform is being talked about even the ways in which professional development is being talked about there isn't a robust resource around or even robust evidence around our paying attention to what's happening with faculty in the context of what we're seeing with students and we continuously call upon faculty to provide this for students and so I'm thinking about certainly what we see happening with women faculty in STEM I spent four years as the program director for the advanced program at NSF advances their signature program for advancing the careers of women in STEM and it uses institutional transformation as a way of promoting that and it was not uncommon to hear just such horror stories I I want to say I heard the worst horror stories while I was at NSF but I I don't think those were the worst but but nevertheless it it was certainly the case that there were many nuances about what women were experiencing in the STEM Academy and certainly women of color even more so and when I match that and my experiences around gender equity and the struggles of women in the academy with what I do now and the responsibility that we have as faculty to provide a certain kind of environment for our students and I just can't put the two together I think about these women these these faculty of color who are spent, who are weary, who are being asked now to show up in ways that are supportive of our students and and and there is is where also Brian much of this wanting that I have to be a refuge and a place of restoration for STEM faculty comes from because if they've got to pour out so much for our students and nothing is being I shouldn't say nothing but little is being poured into them or little attention is being given to how we pour back into faculty that is a driver it's a central driver for me it's a central driver for our work at AACNU as well so it's a long way of answering question of saying a long way of answering that question the short way would be to say absolutely there is a relationship between what we see in terms of what our students struggle with in the academy and what we see marginalized faculty struggle with in the academy well thank you that's a very very thoughtful answer to a very very deep question and hopefully we'll get the question or in person to to follow yeah we have another question and let me put this is a longer one and we just they put this on stage so everyone can see it this is uh this is from Jim vanities I teach teachers online asynchronously a conceptual physics class while the focus has been the science content and exploration I haven't considered implicit bias how do I examine this wow Jim great question you're doing it you're doing it um examining our implicit biases is about asking ourselves the question so often we just keep going and you know it's it's like I gotta cover this syllabus I gotta cover these topics if I don't cover these topics they're not going to be ready when they go on to the next level but to just stop and ask ourselves the question is my bias showing up in some way and kudos to you for teaching online I taught um I taught biology lecture and I taught biology lab online for three years while I was faculty and it was the hardest teaching I have done in my entire life it was so hard the the conceptual is conceptualization that students online have that you're just there like there right there all the time whenever they hit send you're just there to receive it it was crazy um so I I admire what you're doing um if I go back and think about how I taught I didn't pay attention to my biases then either um while I was teaching online um looking back on it in hindsight did I have some some biases probably right but I didn't even I wasn't even where you are right now to be conscious cognizant mindful enough to ask myself the question and so it's not that there will be a specific answer that comes up for you or that there will be a right answer or a wrong answer and it's not that if there's a certain answer to date will always be that answer what's important in this process is that we always ask ourselves the question that we never assume that we're not operating um through our implicit biases because we all have them and we rely on them when we are in our hurried states when we are stressed when we have very little time and moving beyond that then just means should I can I take a moment and just ask myself about my own biases and and also being reflective enough to say did I handle that well did I not handle it well what could I do differently these are the kinds of of critical reflective moments that we emphasize in our institutes so it's almost as if you've been at an institute you might be halfway there thank you for that very candid question i'm really grateful for your trust and thank you kelly for that very very supportive and and powerful answer friends if you're new to the form those are examples of of q and a box questions now i'd like to introduce you to a video question from rachel nemer now she's coming from the university of michigan which is my alma mater so naturally she is a brilliant person let's see if we can get her up next day hello hey brang good to see you hi kelly nice to meet you see um i'd love to hear from your perspective uh at cnu and p cal what are you seeing hbc us do at the classroom and co-curricular level that you wish pwi primarily white institutions would do and how can we think of if we anthropomorphize our institutions how can primarily white institutions be better allies or accomplices for hbc us for students instead wow that's a lot okay so i'll take the the first part um what i see what i see them do that i wish everyone did and i taught it in hbcu for 17 years and one of the things that i often share with uh with colleagues is you would be surprised at what i had to do to reach my students i identify as a black woman the majority of my students were black women and i would be embarrassed to tell you the television shows i watched so that i could make a connection with them i'd be embarrassed to tell you the music that i had to listen to what i had to go through to learn hip hop lyrics just so i could have a conversation with them just so i could be in their world even if for a little bit just so that they knew i was trying right to be in their world and it took a lot of time and it was painful right i like to listen to gospel music on my way to work and having some some dudes screaming at me to this hellace's beat in the morning it it was painful but i had to at least get the stanza so that i knew um and i'll tell you another story uh so so my campus was very remote it's in the rural part of maryland and um we didn't have cable tv they didn't have cable tv on campus so they would watch movies all the time they watched the same movies over and over and over and over again and they'd memorize lines in the movies and just out of nowhere somebody would just say a line in the movie and then they would all just start cracking up and i wouldn't get the joke so i had to start watching those movies too and i'd have to watch them over and over and over and over again until i became fluent in just dropping lines from the movie so the thing that was pervasive amongst my colleagues and i who mentored advise a lot of students was just that the extent that we went to to live in their world and to not make the assumption that because i'm black and you're black we understand each other yes we understand some lived experience but i'm a little older than you i watch different cartoons growing up so that's the first one and that's i think just one thing that's a small thing that that we all can do and then in terms of of being allies i think that there's just a range of things i think um being an an an ally uh being an accomplice um means a lot of different things to a lot of different people and it's also very contextual and historical and rooted in age old traditions so there is often um where there is an hbcu there is often a nearby predominantly white institution and they are usually separated by train tracks and that meant something when those train tracks were built right it was intended to separate not just the institutions but also also to separate the communities and so just it's it's not as simple as i'll just call dr so-and-so over there at hbcu and we'll partner but it's also about understanding all of that context or that's surrounding both institutions and and doing the work that allows you to move past that and so without you know knowing any specifics um about the institutions that you're thinking about it it what i will just offer to you here is that being willing to do the kind of work that i talked about with my students the kind of work that says i'm going to study this and show myself worthy i'm not just going to show up and say hey hey i'm kelly i'm dr meck and and i want to be your friend but i'm going to earn that i'm i'm going to work at it i'm going to pay attention to what it is that you do what you like what you need and i'm going to move out of my own comfort out of my own world and try and exist in yours i'm going to make an effort and i'm going to make such a bold effort that you're able to see and sense what it is that i am attempting to do and that you also sense how authentic my intention is i really appreciate your wise counsel and um candor thank you oh thank you for the question and and for like the trip down memory lane thank you rachel take care and again if you'd like to join us on stage it's that easy you don't have to be from the university of michigan to be allowed on stage well welcome anybody so as long as you've got a question and speaking of which we have a couple more um and and thank you by the way kelly for the really really great answer which is making me reconsider my television choices um we have a another question here from the q&a box and this is from uh elaine barnal what are your recommended strategies for building a sense of community online i teach chemistry for non-science majors that have been a lecturer for over 15 years yeah so um it's hard but i've seen it done and i i have the the benefit of having seen it done masterfully the speakers and presenters that we bring in for our institutes um are highly skilled at taking what they would normally do in person and bringing it into a virtual space um so a couple of things that we advise new speakers to do whatever you're thinking about doing cut it in half just like when people who pack really well will tell people who don't pack really well put everything out that you want to take and then just put half of it back in the drawer only take half of that and the reason is that it just takes longer in the virtual space um the other thing is that we often see um new speakers coming into this space who will take the in-person experience and just do it in the virtual space and it doesn't translate well and what we've had to do um even in my own office is just come to terms with the fact that virtual is a totally different animal it it is just it is different and we took a year to wipe everything clean and just build it again and build it in the virtual space and so you know if you've been doing something one way for so long and you just want to do it virtually you just want to fight to show it and and that doesn't always bode well for the presenter for the for the professor it doesn't bode well for students either or for workshop attendees and so my recommendation would be everything that you know to be true about presenting chemistry scrap that and then build it all over again in the virtual space and it will be much more meaningful it'll be much more targeted um the time that you spend face to face will be so much richer and then I think um along those same things the other recommendation that I would have would be to um maximize the time that you are face to face so I know we like breakout rooms um and you know kind of putting people into smaller groups to build community but platforms like this are our friend because they allow us to feel a different experience other than um your your typical zoom meeting where it's just black and some squares but just this you know thing these squares shifting around um seeing people move and and just a different experience altogether much like what you would want to do in person right so if you you have lectures and you want to spice it up a little bit you would come in and have different exercises for students to do so using different platforms then kind of is the same thing it assumes a little something different to look at um different places to draw their attention it's not easy no matter what you do and I think we also have to just acknowledge and honor that prep time is ridiculously longer than anything that we've ever known in the past and giving ourselves some grace around that right giving ourselves some some grace that says I won't have the entire syllabus figured out by the time the semester starts like I usually do right I think is also very very important I appreciate that question because it's it's it's real right and it's part of the the stress and the overwhelm that we're all feeling right now I think everybody appreciates both the question and your answer uh Elaine thank you very very much for that question and good luck and um and thank you Kelly for that very detailed and practical question um we have more questions coming in I want to make sure we get a everyone a chance to at least one and this is one from our dear friend Roxanne Riskin who circles back to the mindfulness question she asks as a mindfulness educator oh hang on a second I'm actually gonna need to read this question out loud a second time because I can't see it hang on as a mindfulness educator uh I'm I'm excited to hear if you're introducing mindfulness practices as a regular practice are you seeing more mindfulness practices becoming welcomed in the university and college level yes and no um and I say yes and no and you probably know this as well once you start practicing mindfulness other mindfulness practitioners show up in your space and you've communed together and those who don't have an appreciation for it they don't show up in your space so it's hard to gauge whether or not there's more it's also hard for me to gauge whether or not there is more mindfulness practice because I am paying attention to it more now than I was before and it could very well be that it was always there um there are mindfulness groups comprised of academics they they meet several times a year and they've been meeting for decades right I just didn't know about them um but I am I am grateful that at least in some circles at least at some points things like mindfulness are making their way not just into the academy but into the stem academy so if you can imagine individuals who are conditioned to believe and and and to understand that they don't have any influence over data that they don't have any influence over analysis of data or over the content that they teach when in fact we do have some influence because we are the ones conducting the research because we are the ones showing up in front of the classroom and the bodies in which we are showing up to teach what we have to teach so so just knowing that at any level mindfulness is beginning to penetrate these cultures and beginning to penetrate these environments is just extraordinary from what I can tell and I am learning patience I am I am learning that it might be a while before there is a groundswell or a critical mass of us who are looking to more meditative kinds of ways of approaching this work but I'm encouraged by it I really really am. Well thank you thank you that's a really subtle answer and and thank you for it and thank you Roxanne for the question my bet is we'll see more of this come as we grapple with climate change but you know the building on that we have a great question from our wonderful friend Stephen Ehrman and Steve has a Steve has a wonderful book out and which we're going to bug him about in a bit let's put him on stage to ask a question about reading classes and how students develop so let me see if I can bring him on. Hello Stephen. Hi Kelly. Hi Stephen. What I'm interested in is what it takes to change programmatically with regard to DEI issues in STEM. In the past I've done some work on STEM and especially engineering education I've had a sense that one of the least correlates of people holding back is a belief that good students are born not made or at the very least that to the extent they're going to be good or not or good at STEM or not that's all been determined by the time they were admitted so if you want to improve outcomes you have better students and against that backdrop of assumption it's okay to have filter courses for example who's filter out the fit from the unfit. I'm curious for institutions that you know that seriously tried to change the culture in this way to what extent they either uh confront that question you know is this are you implying this what makes you think so here's some relevant research versus just looking let's say as an arbitrary second choice uh at the outcomes of that practice look at the human carnage that's created amongst the students who were judged not worthy and then didn't make it look at what it did to them um at an institutional like ours can we really just say oh that's on them that's on the schools they went to nothing to do with us. What sorts of things do people do when they're trying to change culture around EEI issues in STEM at a programmatic level? My all-time favorite example Steven comes from Wright State University. The dean there is Nathan Klingbile and they were struggling with African-American student success in engineering and the disparity was was distinct. Black students were just not getting through and what I like about their approach was that they started with some fundamental questions the same ones that you're asking now why is it us and and and to be like answer that honestly is it us is it them and um the approach was more than well let's teach this way or let's tweak this or let they scratch the whole engineering program like the whole course sequence the entire curriculum the entire four-year curriculum and they started from scratch and the kinds of questions that they asked were questions like who said you have to take engineering one before engineering two who said that who said you have to take calculus in the spring instead of the fall who said this was the sequence and when they started to answer those questions hey nobody knew who said it but then what emerged from that that what emerged from that was a curriculum that says here is what we know they need they don't need the whole semester of calculus they need this module of calculus um and I might be getting the subjects wrong but but you get the gist of what I'm saying I'm not an engineer so I don't know that curriculum very well but when they did all of this when they really critically looked at everything and questioned everything they made no assumptions and they were honest about what they didn't know what emerged from that was a curriculum that was so culturally responsive to the students that were coming in the door not the students that everybody said they wanted but the students that were coming in the door and they all but saw the disparity not just um uh lesson or decrease but reverse and it's just an extraordinary story that they have so it's it's Nathan Klingbile K-L-I-N-G-B-E-I-L and he's at Wright State University and they had NSF funding for this so you could also go to the NSF award database and look at their abstracts or I mean they they said really cool guy too you just call him up and he will tell you their story because it's it's just remarkable and I just really like the process that they went through that's terrific and I will follow up okay great great question Stephen and thank you for that wonderful example Kelly yeah in the chat I threw a link to Stephen's book I'm gonna have to berate him and get him back on the phone just because it's a it's a it's a unique and very very useful book and Kelly that's that's twice today you've talked about tearing something down and starting it from scratch that's an important thing we have just two minutes left and former student of mine has a really good question let me just squeak this in under the wire because he's a brilliant guy I always hear from him this is Randrew Zubiri who says there's a second there's a move towards more inclusive and sensitive lectures in case studies such as gender or race control examples when discussing human diseases any other advice specific to med schools um other than other than case studies yeah okay so in two minutes history the history of medicine the history knowing the history and who played what role and who played what role in marginalizing and silencing others is extraordinary um and there is a a woman oh she's at Yale University I just recently learned about her work I think her name Robert's if I can follow up with you Brian I'll send you the name because she's got a really great YouTube video and and she talks about this often but she talks about how how even slaves were medical doctors and how their science and their medicine was totally exploded from the story of medicine and then the ways in which she has used her knowledge of history and shared it with postdocs stem postdocs and stem graduate students and um what I am learning is that from my my colleagues who have seen this is the response from graduate students and postdocs who are excelling and thriving because they have a sense now of the contributions of their communities to that which they are studying and the entire population of students white and black also understands that what they are learning is not the end all and be all of medicine right so so we are better off because it means when I go into the emergency room I'm going to get an ER doc who has more at his disposal that he can use to treat whatever it is that I'm showing up with at the time so history is the the short answer to that well that's a powerful answer and and Kelly I'll definitely follow up after this about that the chat has just lit up with different ideas folks are asking about some things about stem how it's different how it's similar thank you Karen Rachel has a link to Nathan Kingbell's Ted Talk an engineer and Heidi links to one Carolyn Roberts and we'll find out that's it but yeah we're just blasted past the top of the hour that is a testimony to just how thoughtful but also how generous you are Kelly with your answers to all of these these questions thank you so much for being a thank you guest what's thank you Brian oh it's it's our pleasure what's the best way to keep up with you and and all your work with a CNU so the best way is through our a CNU website so anything about institutes and when they're happening in our conferences and then I also have Twitter I am at Dr. Kelly Mac on Twitter and I I hope that you all start tweeting me because I need to do more tweeting my staff is is trying to teach me I'm a slow learner if I can talk to you I'd feel much better about engaging okay well we'll we'll tweet some stuff at you I'm sure you'll get a barrage thank you thank you again and good luck with this great work over the next year we have to bring you back yeah thanks everybody oh it's great don't go we had friends let me just point you to the next couple of weeks again we've got topics coming up including rethinking learning rethinking the university eco-media literacy and more if you'd like to keep talking about these issues everything from mindfulness to how to teach online to STEM education and how to support the link between faculty and staff who are dealing with DEI issues please keep us going we're happy to connect this on Twitter use the hashtag FTE or just tweet at me or at Shindig events if you'd like to dive into the past into our previous discussions with other guests about these issues just head to tinyurl.com slash FTF archive and subscribe you can find more and above all please stay safe this fall is becoming stranger and stranger and perhaps more dangerous I hope all of you take good care of yourselves thank you so much for your questions your thoughts your comments today it's been a real pleasure we'll see you next time online bye bye