 In this episode, you're going to learn something special. You're going to learn how you can make service design tangible and concrete so that anyone around you understands its value, and it's actually much easier than you think. Here's the guest for this episode. Let the show begin. Hi there, I'm Daniele, and you are with me here on the service design show, episode 137. Hi, I'm Marc, and welcome back to the service design show. On this show, we explore what's beneath the surface of service design, what are the hidden things that make the difference between success and failure, all to help you design great services that have a positive impact on people and business. Our guest in this episode is Daniele Cattellonato. He's a good friend of mine and has been on the service design show before. The reason I'm so excited to have Daniele here on the show today is that he published a second book titled Service Design Principles 101 to 200, and as you might have guessed, that's a sequel to the first 100 service design principles. So these principles that Daniele documented are what I would call micro-case studies of good services. Services can be and are often very intangible and hard to explain, but at the end of the day, it's the small interactions, the micro interactions that happen often between humans that make a difference between how you feel about its service, if it's a good service or if it's a crappy service. Often we tend to get hung up in our own jargon talking about journeys and touch points, while the difference that we make in the lives of our customers or employees is very tangible and concrete. So using these micro-case studies, you can actually help people to understand what you do. So if you stick around until the end of this episode, you'll know how you can actually identify these small micro interactions in your own daily life, and you'll know how you can use these examples to start working on bigger service design projects. If you enjoy topics like this and want to grow as a service design professional, now that we bring a new video here on this channel every week or so. So if you haven't done so already, click that subscribe button and that bell icon so that you don't miss any episode. That's all for the introduction, and now it's time to jump into the conversation with Daniela Catalonato. Welcome back to the show, Daniela. Hi, Marc. Hey, such a pleasure to be here. Thank you for the invitation. We're going to talk about a book, a very special book. But do you remember which episode you appeared on before on the show? I don't remember the number, but it's a good time ago. It's almost a year ago. It was episode 91. And do you recall the topic? Because I had to look it up. I remember that we talked a lot about the kind of sharing your passion and showing that we all have something to share. I remember that as the key message and the message that people kind of commented back to me and said, oh, I saw you there and love the conversation with Marc about that. So I remember that at least that's the kind of key nugget that came out that people loved about it. Yeah, the theme there was definitely about sharing and this is going. We're going to continue on that theme today. But for the people who are listening right now and have no clue who this Daniela dude is, could you give like a brief introduction? Yeah, sure. So as you might know, I'm Daniela. Basically, I'm a service designer as many people who joined the show. And I work here in Switzerland as a service designer. And one thing I do a lot is kind of publishing content about service design because I'm a bit of a nerd in that thing. I kind of have a very big monomaniac passion for it. And so I write books about it. I write courses, create kind of templates and this kind of stuff and make them available. So that's kind of like the stuff that people see and know. That's the main stuff. And then on the side, obviously, I also do kind of freelance work where I help companies and people with, again, service design because I'm a big service designer nerd. And we have a history together. So we definitely need to make that clear at the start. You sort of inspired me to help you create and set up service design jobs. You already started collecting jobs on a daily basis. And I thought, well, I have a name that might be useful for that. And we started collaborating some time ago on that, right? Indeed, indeed, we had kind of a few long months of fun together on that project. The kind of service design jobs, which was just a list I had on Notion, which I shared with people online. And then you came and said, hey, smart list, could we do something better? And basically, then we started collaborating. You had the domain name. You did a lot of work on the website. We did a lot of work on that. And we never met live. I think that's something which is kind of like special. We worked on that project together. And then came a time where, on my side of life, a baby came, changed a lot. New ventures, yeah. Yeah, it changed a lot. I call it the baby tsunami. And so it changed a lot. And then you continue to work alone. And I'm very happy with what you do. Because I've seen right a few days ago that you're now publishing the second version or working on the second version of the service design salary report. And I think that's kind of the very lovely stuff that's happening with that project. And I'm happy that this history continues in some way. I think that's so lovely. And I really want to thank you for inspiring and being at the birth of service design jobs. I think it's still a super relevant platform. So I'm trying to continue your legacy and in the spirit that you inspired me to do so. So yeah, we've been collaborating for quite a while. Daniela, the first time you appeared on the show, we didn't have an element that we have right now. And I'm going to go through this element with you. It's called a 60-second rapid fire question round. I have five questions for you. And your task is to answer them as quickly as possible so that we get to know you a little bit better beyond Daniela as the service designer. So are you ready? We'll do my best. All right, 60 seconds. Naila, what's always in your fridge? Cheese, a lot of cheese. Of course. Which book or books are you reading at this moment, of any? A lot of classics. I just read a book about French classics. A lot of them right now. Trying to get 200 books. Which superpower would you like to have? Reading minds. What do you want to become when you were a kid? I think an engineer with a moustache. I remember the drawing with the moustache. Well, you're close, I would say. For the moustache, at least. OK, OK. And do you remember the first time you got in touch with Serb's design? Yes, I think it was with the book from Andy Polain. And it was one of, well, I was studying graphic design. And I read that book. And it basically was kind of like a revelation of, oh, there is this thing that I don't know the name for, but which I wanted to do. And now I have the name for it. So now I can study that better. And now you have something you can Google, actually. And there is a community and stuff like that. You don't feel alone anymore. Well, you still feel alone, but you know that there are a lot of other people feeling alone as well. Exactly, exactly. This is the state of the Serb's design field. Daniela, thanks for that question round. Now, let's talk about the big thing that happened recently. And that's the publication of another book. Because you've been, you're writing a lot. You're like the way I know you're a content producing machine. Once you get down to it, the amount of content you produce is quite astonishing. So what book did you recently get out into the world? So the book for those who can see it, I will try to show it. And for the ones I will describe it. It's a little pocket-white book with a funky illustration on it. And the title on it is Service Design Principles 101 to 200. And as the name gives it away, it's kind of the follow-up to a first book where I shared some very simple service design tips for people who basically don't give a fuck about service design, but still wants to get all the good tips to make the customer experience of their service or products a little bit better without too much work. So that's kind of basically the idea. OK, so what inspires somebody to come up with 100 and 100 service design principles? How did this project start? You know, to be honest, you never think about collecting 100. I think you just start by collecting one, two, and then suddenly it becomes a routine. And then suddenly you have 100, 200, et cetera. But for me, the basic motivation for it was to have kind of like a journal of stuff I saw, which I found inspiring, and which I didn't want to forget. And as a journal, it's written in a me form, like, oh, this is what I experienced. This is how I felt about it. And it's kind of just kind of like a way to keep in mind that others do stuff that works really well or that bothered me and to write it down so that I don't do the same kind of bad stuff or that I remember the really inspiring stuff so that if one day I'm working in a service in the same area, then I can go back and say, oh, I remember. I had an experience in a restaurant, but I don't remember which restaurant or what it was. And then I could just go in my blog and write restaurant. And then I found all of these little things. And from there, once you get a few hundreds, a few dozens, then it comes kind of natural to say, let's make a book out of it, which is quite easy then. So these principles, I've seen the books. These principles are basically a one-pager where you describe a situation in which something worked really well in a service or something that didn't work really well in a service. Is that a correct way to describe it? Indeed, indeed. I think for me it's really kind of like one service moment that I experienced or that I've noticed or that I've read about and something that is kind of highly emotional. It's either a very positive emotion or either a very bad emotion. And always thinking about, okay, what can we do with that? What can we learn with that? And the whole idea for me is, I think people are smart. So I didn't write like long explanations about every little detail, but just like writing, okay, this is what happened. This is like one reflection I have about it. And maybe it helps. If it doesn't help, don't worry. There are 99 orders about that. And I think that's kind of like, for me, what I find very interesting when you have such large numbers is they don't need all to fit for you as a business or as a service designer, but there will obviously be at least 10, 15, 20 that you will find very valuable. So you mentioned something about you wanted to keep remembering or at least have a reference. You can look up later. And I'm curious, where did that come from? So like collecting these things takes effort. Writing them down takes effort. So apparently you had a need to make them tend to make this concrete. I'm curious, what was the need that you had for this? I think, you know, it comes from a practice from graphic design. In graphic design, we often do one thing which we call it kind of mood boards. Always, you know, like every time we see something interesting in graphic design, you kind of take it and put it in a folder because you know, oh, that's really interesting. I want to keep it somewhere. And that's basically the same mindset that I kept also for services, but there you just need a bit more kind of like work to document it because you can't just take a picture. You also need kind of like to write a few words about it to remember what happened. And, you know, in graphic design, when I did that, when I worked as a graphic designer, I had like thousands and thousands of these images. And I did that, I think, which is quite weird from time to time. I went in my like little inbox where I had all of these pictures and I flickered through them very, very, very quickly, you know. And what it made for me, it gave me an image of like what good design, good graphic design looks like, you know, and it trained my eye. And I think writing about good services or good moments and services does the same thing, you know, it trains your mind to what's good and what's less good, you know, and how can you change it? And I think that's kind of like the big idea was coming basically from doing something that I did in a previous work and just adapting to service design. And I think that's something that many of us can do, you know, if most of us don't start with service design, you are either an engineer before a summer psychologist or you do something completely else. But I think the habits, you can translate them to this new field that you're working on and then it gives you kind of like a push to be also a sort of better service designer with habits that you had from your previous work experience. I love this, and this is an analogy or metaphor that's just coming up, but you've basically created a Pinterest for service design, for services, like- Indeed, indeed. And that's really cool because I think one of the questions that I get a lot and it's an impossible question to answer, like can you give an example of a great service and the reason why that's so hard is because services are experiences over time and the great things happen in moments. And what you're doing with this book and the previous book is like capturing those moments. And that's something that you can actually describe and give examples of, like the reason why I enjoyed this service was because of this specific thing, rather than explaining the entire service. Indeed. And you know, like Pinterest, I think that's something that I really liked in, because as a full disclosure, you've wrote the foreword to this edition. I did, yeah. And I'm very grateful for it, by the way. But I think there was something that I loved in your foreword, which was you asked people to kind of do the same, you know, to do the journaling, to write down their own principles. And I think with this idea of like being, having a Pinterest for the services, for the experiences that you live, I think that's something quite interesting with this idea of the Pinterest, because Pinterest, we all have a Pinterest board, you know, where we collect stuff. And I think there aren't so many service designers that do it for services, you know. We always have a few ideas in the mind, maybe a few case studies, but we don't keep like very methodically a place where we know these are good examples of services for family. These are good examples of moments for, I don't know, sales, for brick and mortar shops. And I think that's something that I really liked in this, both in the idea that you have of telling it's a Pinterest board, you know, in a way. And this analogy works quite well because it pushes you also to have this idea of do it for yourself. But as in a Pinterest board, then comes also back this notion of share it as we had in our first conversation. So what makes you think that, why aren't we collecting these examples more? Why aren't we pinning good and bad examples of service experiences? I think, you know, at least that's one thing that's always been hard and still hard for me. It's, I don't like finger pointing, you know. So usually when, at least that's how I've writes. When I've write about something positive, I always say the name of the place and et cetera. But when it's bad, I don't ever say the name of the place or I try at least. Because, you know, it's not because it happened, something bad happened to me, as you said, service over time, you know, it's experiences over time. It's not because it happens once that it's always bad, and I think that's kind of like where it's difficult because as services engineers, we are kind of empathic people. We kind of know that there are other people working on making these services work. So the whole showing what doesn't work could lead to finger pointing and saying, this sucks. And I think that's not something that comes from our culture as a community, but showing the good stuff. I think that's quite easier. And then, as you said before or so, you know, it's more difficult than just taking a lovely picture from the internet and putting it in a folder. You have to take a picture usually, maybe take a little video, write a little note about it. And so it's not as easy as it would be for graphic design or music or something else. Yeah, so that's the thing I'm curious about because what is it that you actually capture? What do we describe when we want to pin a good service moment? What did you describe? So for me, usually it starts often with a picture. You know, it's like you live a moment and you think, oh, oh, that's interesting. You know, and then I just take a picture of that moment. And then usually for me, I usually directly think about like, what's the tip here? You know, what's the advice I will give myself based on the picture I've taken? You know, it's something where you basically then say, oh, okay, I've seen, for example, something quite weird. I've been outside with the kid walking and there was a lovely museum here in Lausanne where they have this really beautiful veranda. And so then there they had like huge boxes with art stuff in it. And I thought, oh, guys, we are in Switzerland, it's safe, but robbers will come for that, you know. And as I went much nearer to it, there was a little sign which said empty boxes, you know, which kind of said to the robbers, hey, don't break the windows. There is nothing in here, you know. And seeing that, you know, for me it was like, oh, this is smart because I thought I could rob this and now I can't, now I know I can't. And just taking the picture of that and writing down, you know, let the robbers know that there is nothing in here for them, you know. That's something that I think I could reuse in another service, for example, you know. And it just starts with a picture, something that resonates with you and then trying to transform it in a tip that you could reuse maybe in a year or two. And I wanna dig deeper into some of this stuff because I think there's more to it than we see on the surface because when you say I encounter something that's interesting, from a services perspective, you do have a filter. Not everything is interesting for you. So if you sort of had to analyze this, like what are those things that you sort of identify as interesting? Yeah, and I think that's exactly the point, you know. It's what you resonate with is very different. Like I think if you wrote a book like that or you did kind of this Pinterest work, it would look very different than mine. For mine, I'm looking for the small stuff. You know, I kind of like the very small, tiny, simple things that people can implement today. You know, I think that's something that, I don't know why, but I get this joy of finding this little things that I know I could give to a butcher, to a doctor, to someone who isn't a service designer and tell him, hey, you could do this today and it will bring a little bit of joy to your customers or it will solve the problem very easily. And I think that's what I particularly like, you know. But other people would look for very complex systems, procedures and stuff, but as I'm a very simple guy, I kind of look more for like, what's something very simple that from an emotional standpoint of view creates a big difference? And you're sort of being very modest about it, but I think this might be the essence. Like what are the key ingredients in a service that help to make people more happy, that make employees more happy? Like, and the small but powerful stuff and the filter here is, does it actually make people more happy? Or is it actually improving the service in making stuff easier, quicker, whatever? That's, I think, the filter that you've been applying. My assumption here. Yeah, indeed. Yeah, and you know, for me it's always this question of like, I recognize that you can't fix everything, you know, and no service will be ever perfect, but there are tiny things you can do to bring that little spark of joy and this little touch of, this little human touch. And I think also one kind of lens I have when I'm looking at all of these things that happen in other services, what I particularly like is all these kind of very subtle human touches, which bring back this fact that at the end of the day, this is a service from humans to humans, and making that interaction visible again. Because I think the better we do, and better we create services, often the more they become kind of like very perfect on the surface. And when something becomes so perfect that it's kind of cold, you know? Like when it has no soul, because it's just working perfectly and you don't notice it again, you know? And I think here it's again, bringing this kind of like human touch, revealing that there are people working on it, revealing that it's not always perfect and it's okay. And just working with all of that too, you know? I think that's something where as service designer we want always to make everything perfect, you know? And that might lead sometimes to then making it so perfect that it loses soul in a way. So the human aspect, and I'm trying to see how we could help somebody who's listening to this episode actually also implement this habit in this way of noticing. And it's maybe just asking yourself the question like, what makes it in this moment that makes me feel that this is actually a human service? Like I'm trying to see if there are some powerful questions where you can just maybe for three seconds, like stop and reflect, does this service actually feel human to me? And if so, which elements are making it feel human to me? Or is it enjoyable? Like what's the thing in this moment that makes it enjoyable for me? And having, I don't think it should be 10 questions, but one, two, three of those powerful questions that could already open up a very big opportunity of collecting these Pinterest mood board service examples. Indeed, and I think the big question is again, as you said, it's why, you know? And the question I will start with is why did I stop? I think that's kind of like, because in a service, you know, if it's something that is not particular or special, you know, you will just go through it and you will notice anything, you know? But why did you stop? And why did you stop in that experience and that journey to look at that? And from there, then you can do the classic five why, you know? Okay, why did I stop? Oh, I found that funny. Why did I find it funny? Oh, because this, and then you kind of can go back. I think that's one question that could summarize all of the questions is why did I stop? And the other one is maybe that's also something that helps is like, knowing what are the values you have as a service designer, you know? For me, I've written that down somewhere where I've said for myself, I want to be the kind of service designer who works on the small stuff that has a big impact, you know, like working on tiny stuff that makes big changes. And so every time I'm outside and experiencing new services, I'm always trying to think also through that lens, through that value that I've decided for myself. So for someone who wants to work on big complex projects, you know, then it should always be looking at services and think, okay, what can I learn from here to solve big complex problems, you know? And I think that's like you need to know your values and where you want to go before knowing what to observe in a way. So this is quite interesting. And I think it's a big lesson here that as a service designer or service design professional, you should also be mindful about the services that you consume. So we put a lot of effort in actually designing something for somebody else, but I don't know, at least when I speak for myself, I don't think I'm mindful enough when I'm consuming all the services while there's a lot I can learn there just by thinking, okay, how does this service make me feel in a positive or negative way? And then what's causing that? And there you can sort of draw a lot of lessons from everything you experience throughout your day. And, you know, we consume much more services or experiences or go through experiences than what we create, you know? As service designers, we might create a few services per year, but as customers, users, human beings, we go through dozens of services every day, you know? So maybe there is a lot of learning too that can happen there, you know? Not only on what we do as our work, but also kind of just as human beings and dads as someone going to a grocery store. Because again, that's something that I find so interesting is how you can transfer things that you experience maybe when doing groceries, you can transfer that for an online shop. What you experience in an online shop, you can transfer it for an emergency service in a hospital. And I think this transfer, again, that's something that we talked on before at the beginning, like transferring tools and knowledge that you have from a previous work experience and bringing that into services then, but also transferring things from services that you are not really working on for the services you are trying to improve. So I've had this conversation with people in the past where they said like, if we look for instance at architecture, they have like a whole library of doors or windows. They have like defined what a door is, defined what a window is, and then they can draw from that body of knowledge around doors and whether you're designing a hospital or a library or a home. Like you already can build upon the knowledge that's out there around doors. And we were sort of fantasizing like what would that be in a service context? And this sort of is heading in that direction. Like could we build a library or a body of knowledge around moments throughout a service around maybe onboarding or around, I don't know, this would be a great graduation project or PhD project for someone to figure out how to actually make this type of knowledge accessible, how to collect this. Because once we have it, like just like you said, it becomes a matter of remixing almost what's already out there instead of trying to reinvent the wheel all the time. So, you know, for this question of the library, I think as in UX design, for example, we can work both on the very small and the very big. For example, the one thing I do is like this very tiny moments. Like then it will be very much this library of doors if we will speak about architecture. But other people are working on stuff which is like what's a good service? You know, there is this great book, Good Services, you know, where I think it's Lou, is it correct? Yes, we're done, yes. Yeah, and you know, that's a book that when I ask people to review mine, they all told like, oh, yours is really good about the tiny examples, but the one from Lou is very good at giving like the top view of it. You know, like the big principles that govern all of that, you know. And I think if we can have both, you know, both the kind of like big principles. And I think again, Lou is doing that. There is the UK service design department in the government, I think. The naming might be wrong, but I think that's good. Exactly. These people are working on that. There is a lot of good examples of people like trying to find like the 10 or 20 big principles that govern what's a good service, you know. And then having the very down to earth practical examples. And when we connect that, you know, that's quite powerful in a way. Yeah, and I absolutely agree because slapping doors and windows together doesn't create a place where you feel at home per se. Like you need other stuff. You need to think on a different level about that. And it's the same with service. It's not like when you slap together a few good service moments that the entire service becomes something that's enjoyable, it might become very cold and non-human-like actually. So, yeah, you absolutely need those two things. They're very down to earth practical stuff but also like the guiding principles on a higher level. What I find interesting though in your effort is that the challenge with services is that they are so freaking intangible and it's really hard for people to imagine what are you actually talking about and books from Lule like good services. Like it's when you read that it's still very difficult to imagine. So what will be different? Like how is this actually going to help me as a non-service designer? Like it's really hard. But the examples you're giving, it's like the day-to-day stuff that we encounter all the time where you might actually think, ah, so if I look at this from a service design lens, then it will, this moment will actually be more fun or more enjoyable or it's like, like you said, the small and practical stuff that actually makes life easier. So that's what I applaud you for collecting and showing us that service design is practical and is tangible and there are things that you can actually point to in our daily life that are maybe not per se a direct example of where a service design professional had worked, but you could say this is an example of good service design. And you know, for me and I always come from the place where my dream, and I think it's not a dream that will come true anytime soon, but my dream is that like anybody, like a guy having a small bakery shop, a dentist, someone who just does a little bit of freelance doing jewelry at home, you know? Like these people also kind of like get into, oh, there is something which could make my customers even more happy than what I do today, you know? And there are very simple things. And these people want to read about customer experience, service design and this kind of stuff, you know? But they might just want something very small and tangible, very down to earth and practical, you know? And that's like the vision I have is like writing for these people, but obviously it's kind of hard to get, to share with people who don't know they have a problem. You know, it's like, how do you help someone who even doesn't know that there is a problem? And then how do you share the solution to a problem that people don't know they have, you know? So still today there is a lot of the service design community which gets attracted to this type of content, but I'm always kind of writing for my boss, my previous boss who worked in a church for my dentist, for, you know, the local shop where I go by my groceries. And I think with that intention, I hope at least one day we will get there. And in the meantime, I know that a few service designers think it's also valuable for them. Yeah. And the more I think about it, the more value I see in your work because you can sort of approach this from a methodological standpoint where you sort of try to analyze this and do the work required to actually come to a better service. But sometimes it's just easier to almost start with copy pasting some examples that have worked somewhere else, implement them and see what happens. So, and then almost reverse engineer. And I think it makes the barrier to entry much lower. Just like, okay, here are five examples where they did something interesting around onboarding. Let's try them out without thinking too much about the entire service design community. Let's see what happens. And then by doing that, you naturally develop like a more customer centered perspective. So, and that's like almost a bottom up approach. Yeah. And you know, there is even kind of data that proves that this kind of approach works in the first edition of the book in the introduction I spoke about this research that says they tried to help people become a little better with managing their money. And they did kind of, I think three groups. One group wasn't trained at all. One group was trained kind of like business one-on-one, budgeting one-on-one, you know, like very classical. They had a course, et cetera. And the third group just had like rules of thumb which said separate home money from business money, put it into separate the drawers, you know. And the people who save the most money were at the end, the ones not that followed the course, but the ones that just had the very simple down to earth tips. And I think for a lot of us, just a good little tip, like separate the money from your business from your family, you know, is just good enough to get worked, to have an impact on your life. And I think for services, it's basically the same. Yeah, and the thing, like service design can be so intimidating for a lot of clients because when we get in, it's like, yeah, we need to almost redesign the entire company, the entire system. It's so big and it touches everything. While taking this super pragmatic bottom up example driven approach, what it does, it allows you to build trust and credibility by just really quickly trying things out and see what works. And if something sticks, that's great. And if it sticks, then you're sort of building evidence that, hey, this kind of, this way of thinking might actually be something that we should invest more time and energy in. So yeah, from that perspective, it's also super valuable. Yeah, and it's also kind of getting people to understand the practice by practice. Like instead of saying, oh, we need to redesign the customer journey, like doing something very simple and then suddenly people in the company will say, hey, it's strange, now we have less complaints. What did you do? It's like, oh, we tried this and it worked. We tried also five other things which didn't work, but that one worked. And then you start to have a conversation like, automatically then you have the conversation about, oh, should we try something else? And you're basically then speaking about prototyping, but without using that language, that very philosophical point of view, but you just speak about, hey, we tried a few things that we stole from others and five didn't work, one worked, cool. Let's try five others, maybe one more will work. And I think also this idea of, it's okay to steal, you know. Remax, we talk about remixing. Yeah, you don't learn to draw by just going outside and drawing, like many people when they start to learn to draw, if you go in a museum, you see a lot of art students redrawing the Mona Lisa, you know, because that's how you learn to draw. You copy, you steal, you remix, you make your own version. And once you are able to make your own version, then you can make your own art. But you never start from scratch. You don't become like an artist like that. It takes time and practice. And just going out, watching what others do, observe and remixing, trying out is a very simple way to get there. I think we're sort of as a community limited by the fact that we think like every situation is different. Every organization is different. Every customer is unique. And of course, that's true to a certain extent. And we shouldn't just blindly copy paste everything. But as a starting point when the maturity of the organization is quite low and you need to build that momentum, starting very lean and very small, very practical might be just the way that gives you the momentum that you need to sort of do any more thorough work. Like maybe this is the thing that we always want to do quite thorough work, quite rigorous. We want to make sure that we're following the right steps. But at some points you just, it's better to forget about the process, do some simple things and see what happens. And if you look at Switzerland, in Switzerland we have a lot of services which are copy and paste from US services. Like things that happen in the US and then somebody thinks, okay, that's cool. I like what they've done. We're just gonna copy everything like the whole way it works and just change the language to one of the Swiss language which is obviously not supported by the US people. And boom, it becomes something quite popular in Switzerland. And I think that's something valuable. It really has value for people in Switzerland. And would you say, oh no, this big brand which is doing this new service in Switzerland it's just a copy of something else in the US. They made the service work. They have an impact in life. Sure, they didn't invest tons of money in research because they could see that it already works somewhere else. They made a few adjustments. And I think we have sometimes this artist syndrome. We want to be the creators. We want to be the artist. The one signing there, the art piece. But it's not so important. If it's not our art piece, but it helps people. We'll give it a fuck at the end. Yeah, and I'm thinking that you and I did some YouTube videos around critiquing service design positions or how the job openings were written not to finger point, but to actually learn and give valuable feedback. And from what I know about architecture, students also study buildings and just to recognize the elements. I'm not seeing that in the service design field where we have a dialogue in the community about, okay, let's look at this service. Let's look at those moments. How do they work? What are the positive elements in here? They're, have you seen this dialogue, this conversation in the community? To be honest, I think it's something that exists, but it's hidden. A lot of companies do what is called service safaris where you go out and experience another service. You take notes, you look at how it's done to get inspiration from that service. So, there is a lot of documentation about these techniques. It's something quite old, but I think what's missing from our community, at least that's how I feel about it, is that it's all done behind closed doors. It's all done like, oh, we are this company and we're gonna go with a few of our friends to another company, look how it's done, take a few notes, keep our notes for ourselves. And I think that's where maybe other branches of the design world or innovation world are kind of more open to that, where you see critiques of apps, you see critiques of buildings and this kind of stuff, and people trying to improve and redesigning a website or stuff. And I think it could be quite interesting if we did that also in a public way. I think that's maybe what's missing. But still do it in a very lovely way, which is kind of like this signature, at least for me, how I see the community. Still trying to be very gentle, trying to be very respectful of the work of others, not finger pointing, but more saying, hey, this was an issue for me, doesn't mean it's an issue always, but it was one for me, and this is how it could be solved. And I think if we can go to that very healthy feedback and also just maybe start by pointing, finger pointing the positive stuff, because there is a lot of very good work that is done. If we can already just start with that, that will make a huge impact. Now, we're heading towards the end of our conversation. I'm curious, what's next? What is the next thing that you wanna explore? So for me, I have kind of like a weird goal now that I've, you know, when I started with this, I asked myself, can I get to 100? And then I went to 100 and then I thought, okay, it's done, I will never be able to find 100 more. And then now I did, and now I'm thinking like, oh, maybe I could do that like one or three times more. And so basically that's kind of like the big goal for me is now maybe to try to have this series going on in a more kind of yearly basis, without promises, obviously. But that's kind of like one thing I'd like to explore. And one of the feedbacks I got a lot, which was very interesting to me, it was this notion that people said, oh, we love the stories. They're really interesting because it's stories, but you live in Switzerland, you know? And obviously, Daniela, you've gone to a few places, but I live in Turkey and it's not the same services or I live in Japan and it's not the same culture. And that's kind of something that I'm, maybe in one of the next editions, I'd like to kind of have a community edition, you know, where it's not just my tips, but stuff that is experienced by other people, you know, stories from the community, where it's like something from Japan, something from Africa, something from North America, something from whatever place, you know, but not just the tiny European space lived by one guy with a mustache. So now you've got an entire service design community here listening to this story. People are inspired and thinking, I have some examples here, I've been noticing. Is there a way that they can help you in this project? You can just go on LinkedIn, write me a message. There are a few people who already do that, take a picture and write, why did you stop? Why did you stop to take this picture? And write down what happened. And usually what happens is that we then have a little chat and then I make a little article out of that and then usually it goes then back in one of the books. And I would love if you could do that, obviously I will credit all your work and stuff because I would love that we see that these are not just my stories, but if you think, oh, I can't write about it, but I can share a few information and I'd love this to go public, but I don't know how to make it public, then just give me the work, you know, send me a picture, send me a few words. If you don't like writing, you can send me an audio note with what you experienced and I'll try to then transform that in something which is like this bite-sized tiny story that people then can take as a tip for their work and for improving their services. Now, we might already see the next 100 principles based on this call to action in a month or two. I wouldn't be surprised if you get a lot of feedback on this. Daniela, sort of final question. We've been talking about this amazing book, but we haven't mentioned where people can actually get their hands on it, so. So you can find it on the Swiss Innovation Academy. So that's what you can type that in Google and it usually should be the first result. Basically, that's where I publish all my kind of service design related work. You will not be able to find it on Amazon because I've been lately aware of the way kind of like worker treatments work there, so I didn't want to support that way of working. So you can't find it on Amazon for that reason. So you have to go through the Swiss Innovation Academy and so either you write Swiss Innovation Academy in Google or you just write service design principles 101 to 200 and you should find it. Or you just click one of the links that's in the show notes of this episode and then you'll don't have to type anything in. Because you make a good experience for your listeners. Thanks, mate. We try. Daniela, thanks so much for putting in the effort, the time, the sweat, blood and tears in actually collecting all these examples and sharing them with us and doing, I really think some foundational work and I hope it inspires some people to do the same and that we build upon this body of knowledge in the service design community. So thanks again for doing this and thanks again for coming on the show and sharing something about this journey. Thanks to you for your time and for all what you do for the community and again this survey and all of this stuff. I think it's huge work and thank you so much. And I'll see you back when the third edition is out. Let's do that. All right. I really hope that you enjoyed this conversation and learned something new. If you have examples of great service moment interactions, make sure to reach out to Daniela because I'd love to know and see the next 100 examples. If you haven't done so already, make sure to subscribe to the channel so that you don't miss any future episode. And if you're looking for more, check out this next video and I'll see you over there.