 Greetings from the National Archives flagship building in Washington, D.C., which sits on the ancestral grounds of the Nacoch tank peoples. I'm David Ferriero, Archivist of the United States, and it's my pleasure to welcome you to today's virtual author lecture with Annette Gordon-Reed, author of On Juneteenth. Before we begin, I'd like to tell you about two upcoming programs you can view on our YouTube channel. On Tuesday, June 8th at 7 p.m., former President George H.W. Bush's chief of staff, Jean Becker, will tell us about her book on the Bush post-presidency, The Man I Knew. Joining Jean in conversation is Warren Finch, director of the George Bush Presidential Library. And on Wednesday, June 9th at 1 p.m., we'll present a program in partnership with the U.S. Association of Former Members of Congress entitled Can Congress Reform Itself Again? Our moderator will be Librarian of Congress Carla Hayden, and panelists will include current and former members of Congress. The celebration of Juneteenth for long a solely Texas event has spread across the country in recent years. The name, a combination of June and 19th, derives from the June 19, 1865 military order that declared an end to slavery in Texas. U.S. Major General Gordon Granger issued General Order No. 3, which unambiguously declared, the people of Texas are informed that in accordance with the proclamation from the executive of the United States, all slaves are free. Juneteenth is the oldest known celebration commemorating the end of slavery in the United States, but until last year no one had thought to ask about its documentary origin. It had long been available and consulted in its printed form, but last summer a NARA employee's question led us to the original handwritten order. This landmark document of freedom was digitized and is now available on the National Archives catalog. And that Gordon Reed's new book on Juneteenth tells the sweeping story of Juneteenth's integral importance to American history. In a recent review in the Washington Post, Dana Raimi Berry wrote, Gordon Reed offers a timely history lesson. She does so with beautiful prose, breathtaking stories, and painful memories. And that Gordon Reed is the Carl M. Loeb University professor at Harvard. She has won 16 book prizes including the Pulitzer Prize in History and the National Book Award for the Hemmingses of Monticello. Professor Gordon Reed was the Vivian Harmsworth visiting professor of American history at the University of Oxford in 2014 to 2015. Between 2010 and 2015 she was the Carol K. Fortzheimer professor at the Radcliffe Institute for Advanced Study at Harvard University. She has been president of the Society of Historians of the Early American Republic and is the current president of the Ames Foundation. A selected list of her honors include a fellowship from the Dorothy and Louis B. Cullman Center for Scholars and Writers at the New York Public Library, a Guggenheim Fellowship in the Humanities, a MacArthur Fellowship, the National Humanities Medal, the National Book Award, the Frederick Douglass Book Prize, and the George Washington Book Prize. She was elected fellow of the American Academy of Arts and Sciences in 2011 and was a member of the Academy's Commission on the Humanities and Social Sciences. In 2019 she was elected as a member of the American Philosophical Society. Joining Professor Gordon Reed in conversation tonight is Roy Young, the president and chief executive of the Montpelier Foundation, which operates James Madison's Historic Home in Virginia. He most recently served as a business consultant to Winterthur Museum, Garden and Library in Delaware and currently co-chairs the Historic House and Sites Network at the American Alliance of Museums. Prior to that he was vice president for guest experience at George Washington's Mount Vernon and has held leadership positions at Fallingwater Western Pennsylvania Conservancy and at the University of Arizona Museum of Art and Visual Archives. Now let's hear from Annette Gordon Reed and Roy Young. Thank you for joining us today. Thank you very much and welcome. It's a pleasure to see you all this evening. Thanks for joining us. I'm Roy Young and that and I are joined tonight by Elizabeth Chew, the executive vice president and chief curator at Montpelier. We're also joined by Reverend Brown from the Orange County African American Historical Society and Mary Minkoff, the curator of archaeological collections at Montpelier. It is a pleasure to partner with the National Archives and Professor Gordon Reed to present this program this evening. You may ask yourself, why is James Madison's Montpelier involved? We are, we believe, the only presidential home of plantation and former site of enslavement that hosts an annual Juneteenth celebration, which we have done for the past six years in partnership with the Orange County African American Historical Society. We are also a place that deals in the whole truth of American history in the way that Professor Gordon Reed stresses so eloquently in her book On Juneteenth. This evening, Elizabeth Chew and I will pose some questions about the book to Professor Gordon Reed for about 25 minutes. Then we'll open up for a small panel discussion to include Reverend Brown and Mary Minkoff to discuss Juneteenth, ways that it is commemorated and celebrated currently, and the future of Juneteenth as a national holiday. Then if time allows, we'll move to questions and answers from the audience. Once again, thank you so much for joining us, and we'll start with a question from Elizabeth. Elizabeth? Roy, and good evening, Professor Gordon Reed. It is such a pleasure to be here with you this evening. Your book is just a wonderful weaving together of the history of Texas and of the celebration of Juneteenth and the history of Juneteenth in Texas with the story of your family and your personal story. I'm wondering if you could tell us a little bit about why you wrote the book and what prompted you to write it. Well, thank you, Elizabeth. My kind words about the book. I've thought about writing a book about Texas for a very long time. My editor, Bob Wild at LiveWrite, has been after me to write a big book about Texas, a big book of Texas history. I write about Virginia and slavery and all of that, and why not write about my home state. This past year, during the midst of the pandemic, I was thinking about an article that I had written for The New Yorker about Juneteenth, about the holiday itself, and I talked a little bit about how we celebrated it when I was growing up. The year before that, I had written a review of five books about Texas for the New York review of books and the combination of writing those two things. And I think being in the pandemic, thinking about the possibility, I mean, what it meant to, you know, thinking about my family and how my parents who are no longer living, how they would have responded to the crisis, the pandemic. It made me think a lot about my past, and I thought that we thought this would be a good time for me to write something shorter than we originally thought about doing. But some essays that would allow me to explore Texas history and my family all together, a book of essays, something that would be accessible to large numbers of people that would still give history, but also give me a chance to do the kind of writing that I've always wanted to do. More essays, more personal kinds of things, which historians don't typically get a chance to do. For people who may not know this, could you talk a little bit about the history of Juneteenth itself, how you as a child in Texas celebrated Juneteenth? Well, Juneteenth commemorates the day that General Gordon Granger came to Galveston after the Army of the Trans-Mississippi had finally surrendered. Lee surrendered, the Army of Northern Virginia surrendered in April, but they kept fighting in the Southwest. They finally give up at the beginning of June, which gave Granger the opportunity to go to Galveston and make this declaration. And ever since that year, there have been celebrations in Texas of that. In the 1870s, four black men pulled their resources and bought land in Houston to celebrate this, a park, specifically for the purpose of celebrating Juneteenth. And then people celebrated in their homes. It's sort of like the Fourth of July in a way, but for black people until it became a state holiday in Texas. And then lots of people, people of all races celebrated it. But it was a day of commemoration, a day of picnicking, those kinds of things. Firecrackers, I remember we had those. It's hard for me to imagine that I played with firecrackers when I was below 10 years old. It's something I would never let my kids do, but those were different times. So it was a day of celebration. And I think the older people in my family reflected probably more than I did as a kid on the meaning of it. Because my great-grandmother was alive until I was about 11 years old. And her mother had been born a slave, enslaved, had been freed by her father, enslaver and her mother. And so my great-grandmother knew someone who had been enslaved and probably knew a good number of people who were. So that day meant something to them. For us, it was more for kids. It was a day of fun and eating and drinking soda, what we call soda water down in the south, drinking too much of that when I was a kid. So it was a serious day, a serious thing happened, but it became for me at least as a child, it was more a day of fun and recreation. One thing that really intrigued me was the red soda water. Why was it red? Well, you know, I don't know. I have since learned that there was also strawberry pie. And what people say is that it reflected the blood that was shed in slavery. I don't know if that's true or not. You know, as well as I do with all these various holidays and commemorations, things get added on to this. You know, that's the thing that is said that red was supposed to be about the blood of people lost during slavery, but that was it. And goat, we didn't eat goat, but that was another one of the dishes that was thrown into it. And in high Texas fashion, as I mentioned in the book, my grandmother who made tamales would take orders from people. It was a holiday food and for Juneteenth, so it was barbecue and soda and tamales and other kind of southern cuisine as well thrown into it. So it was food. Food was a big part of all of it. That's such a magical weaving together of African American food in Texas. Yes, exactly. I mean, it's a strange thing to think of the melding cultures in Texas. One of the things I talk about in the book is how there's a conception of Texas as a white man, essentially, because you think of cowboys. And even though we know cowboys, many of the cowboys were black, but the Hollywood version of cowboys and oil men, that kind of thing. But Texas is black culture, white culture, Anglo culture, Latino culture, Indians all mixed together there. And they were from the very, very beginning. This is not some multiculturalism, it's not some new phenomenon to Texas. It's been there from the very, very beginning. I have a question that is far more from the perspective of family. And so I as well had my great-grandmother with me until I was almost 30 years old. And it seems as if grandparents and parents have an amazing way of creating a world for you to be in. And so much of what we learn, we learn through them. And so I'm curious, in the book, I thought describing your life in Texas, your family in Texas, your upbringing in Texas, I thought that was really compelling. But one of the things that I thought might be interesting to explore is your ideas maybe at that age later in life now. What do you think with the factors that led to your parents being so idealistic about your education? When in that time period as well as now, there are so many barriers in terms of equal education for women and for blacks. Well, my parent is referring to the fact, referring to the fact that my parents decided to send me to a white school. I integrated the schools in our town and they were, and I discussed the fact that I think that by the time as the years were on, they were somewhat disillusioned with that process and they changed the reason they sent me to something more pragmatic. But I actually believe that they were idealistic. And they were idealistic because we were in the middle, this is the mid-60s, we're in the middle of, well, the end, the final culmination of all of the work that had been done. I wanted to say the 50s, but this whole process, the civil rights movement started long before then. The architecture of that was the 20s and the 30s and the 40s, but Brown versus Board of Education in 1954 and then later on the Civil Rights Act 64 and the Voting Rights Act. So this, I would have been going to school just at that particular time. They saw themselves, this was a generation of people who saw themselves as on the move. You know that this was a part of a journey that African-American people were on and they wanted to be a part of that and they wanted me to be a part of that. So that's how they decided to do it. It was against the backdrop of stuff that's going on all over the country at that time. Other people were integrating schools. As I said, the end of de jure segregation and public accommodations, all those kinds of things and they wanted to be a part of that. It's sort of an interesting thing to think of, but they were just moved by the spirit of the time. You mentioned finding out later that they had made sort of a quiet deal with the principal of the school. Yeah, and they basically said that this was going to proceed in a normal way, a low-key way. I wouldn't be escorted by any police officers or anything like that. No big deal would be made about it. My father drove me to Anderson and dropped me off. And I just started school seemingly in a normal way, not normal, totally, because I talk about the fact that there would be delegations of people, groups of people who would come and stand in the doorway to watch, to see and talk about how things were proceeding. And I knew that I was on display. I knew that this was a big deal. So, yeah, but nothing in the papers. I mean, I learned later there had been some threats against my family, but nothing serious, nothing came of any of that. And it was not an easy time, not an easy thing to do, but I did it. Looking back in hindsight, sort of like Ruby Bridges and Little Rock, how do you see your own experience? Well, it must have been like that. It was like that in my particular area. There was hostility towards the whole process, but I think it wasn't as dramatic, obviously, as the very first person who's doing this. But it was tough. My mother said that I broke out in hives at one point. I don't remember that. It's like everything, human beings, we sort of look back at our lives and we focus on the good things. I mean, I had fun. I had some friends. And my teachers, I would have to say my Mrs. Daughtry and my first great teacher, Mrs. Gilliland, my second great teacher, those were the real, you know, the formative moments time. They were just fantastic to me. And I don't wonder, and I didn't think of this until after the book. The book was written. I wondered if the fact that my mother was a teacher influenced the way they went about what they did. Maybe there was some sort of sisterly, some sort of camaraderie thing going on there, but they were wonderful to me. I never got a sense that they were treating me any differently than anybody else. They were enormously supportive of me. Some of the kids were great and some of the kids were not. But the teachers at the school and the principal uniformly couldn't have handled things better, I don't think. I love the idea, though, that your parents in creating this moment for you, for your family, that how brave they were to take on their world in that way. They convey to you that this was the way life was. This was how it was going to happen. I just think they were, as I said before, I think that they were buoyed by knowing that these kinds of things and other strides, other efforts were being made all over the country at that time. That was sort of the spirit of the moment. Well, you mentioned in the book how your hometown has changed. I wonder what you see as being the next critical change that needs to take place either in your hometown or places like your hometown to assist in our world continuing to evolve in the way that you emphasize it evolving when you and your parents were there. Well, I think the problems are tougher to solve at this point, I think, because the jury segregation, you know, their laws and you get rid of the laws. And that's one thing. What we're dealing with now is something a bit more amorphous. In a way, there's a tremendous problem with, I think, incarceration, over incarceration of African American people, particularly African American males. I know that countrywide, I mean nationwide, that's slowing down a bit. But alternatives to incarceration, something about the educational system, there has to be efforts to really bring people into society in a way and not see them as expendable. And one of the things that's happened in the town and in all those little towns in the south is with the problems with drugs. And these are not just blacks, but white people as well, depending upon what state is either meth or crack or other kinds of things or something. There's a sense of futility that many people have because of the system that we're in now that doesn't seem to have a place for people. That's a harder problem to solve than just getting rid of laws. So in some things, when I go back there, when I've gone back over the years, certainly socially it's easier to go places. I could go to the movie and I don't have to sit in the balcony. If I were to go to the doctor, I wouldn't go to a separate waiting room. Social relations are easier, but fundamentally the sort of fundamental racial hierarchy and the fundamental economic, the problem of economic inequality is there. And maybe even exacerbated compared to the past because there's not as much for people to do. You know, people worked in the sawmill before or people did those kinds, but there's no more sawmill on their service jobs and they're not jobs that people that allow people to feed a family or take care of their family. So we've got a lot to do in the country, not just on the on the racial front, certainly, but just in general. I'm hoping it involves all of us this time as opposed to just some of us. I have three beautiful grandchildren that are African and European descent. And they live in a very small town, which the school, the local school reports that they're they're brand new they just moved. But the local school reports that there is 0% diversity in the elementary school. And so these small towns really are very isolated still in many ways in terms of who lives there and who feels comfortable in living there. So I think I think books like yours help people realize that that this has been true for a long time and change can can happen. Yeah. Thank you. I certainly hope so. So just one more question for me. Both the Declaration of Independence and the Emancipation Proclamation state that all men are created equal. This phrase still is not always interpreted or referenced as all individuals. And I'm curious how you think should the change. I'm curious how we can change language in order to be more specific and to state our commitment to equality for every individual as an author as a lawyer curious to hear your thoughts on that on equality. Well, it's interesting because this relates to Juneteenth in that general order talks about equality. You know that that now these the former enslaved people would be, you know, equal should be considered equal to the people who enslaved them and of course, that raised a number of people who had come to count on this idea of ownership of people and a racial hierarchy. I just think we have to keep coming back to those words. I think one of the Du Bois said about this that African Americans have been the people of the foremost people who proponents of this because we were obviously left out of that. And we wanted to make the case for and make it sort of reiterate not to make the case for because it's obvious it's self evident, but to remind people that that we are human beings as well. You know, I think what we have to do is to keep working on this problem. We have to sort of reassert sort of reinsert these notions of equality into the way we deal with one another and to sort of reaffirm it is what I what I meant to say reaffirm it. I think it's, I think it holds up pretty well if people would live by it. And it's, you know, there are lots of reasons that people don't want to do that. I think, certainly, the legacy of slavery, which created and maintained a racial hierarchy that some people still want to live by makes that difficult. We have to keep hammering the point home. I mean, those words are considered to be America's creed. That's what we say in our more idealistic moments. And we just have to hold people's, you know, feet to the fire on this question and not give up on the importance of equality. Absolutely. Thank you. We have one more question for you before we move to the panel. So this line from the coda of your book really jumped out at me and you wrote love does not require taking an uncritical stance towards the objects of one's affections. In truth, it often requires the opposite. I'm someone and we at Montpelier are people who care very deeply about telling the public the whole truth about American history. And we want to tell the truth because we love this country, not because we hate it. It's related in your book, so much love and beauty in your family stories, including the celebration of Juneteenth, and so much pride in your community in Conroe, Texas. But you did not let us forget that Conroe was also a place where white men lynched, burned and shot black men without repercussion, and where your parents had to make a quiet deal for you to attend the school of your choice. So what I want to ask you is, how do you think we can move on from the place we are today, where looking critically and truthfully at American history is considered hating America, and where lawmakers are attempting to bar school systems from teaching the 1619 project. Well, you just have to push back on that question. I think mature people understand that, as I said, love doesn't mean pretending that every single thing that someone that you love or something or some place that you love is perfect. People who have children and claim to love them, but never correct them. Or their children are always right. The teacher is wrong. The kids are always right. That's not love. That's something else. It's ego. It's narcissism. It's self-regard that the only thing that matters is you and how you're responding to something. You have to be tough enough to be critical. I mean, as I say in that passage as well, how you do it matters. I mean, we correct our friends or we correct ourselves and we try to do that in a balanced way in a way that is respectful and not dismissive of people, but you have to do it. And I think it's just about being an adult. You know, you grow up and you find out that your parents don't have all the answers. They're not perfect. They didn't know what they were doing. Especially when you get your own kids, you realize you don't know what they're doing. But they didn't know what they were doing. And you have to approach it in a way that is respectful but firm. There's no way to hide the fact that the Texas Republic protected slavery. It's in the Constitution. You can't read the founding documents of the Republic without coming to grips with that. And how you respond to that, it's a matter. I think it's personality. Are you the kind of person who can be mature enough to say, well, they made that mistake. That was wrong. But we're going to go forward. You know, and that's the purpose of, I mean, that's to me the message of Juneteenth. These are people who were celebrating the end of slavery knowing that tough roads were ahead. That that hadn't solved anything. But they were moving forward with optimism and a sense that, you know, we're going to leave the past behind. We'll remember and commemorate. We don't live in the past. We'll remember it, but we're going forward. And that's what I think we have to reiterate to people. You can't move forward lying. And you just have to tell the truth. And the good things that the person did, you'll take that into account. But you also have to take into account the flaws. That's the only way you get the total picture. And you need the total picture. I would say that's exactly what we endeavor to do every day at Montpelier is exactly that. Tell the truth to tell the whole history. And to tell, you know, all sides of that person, all sides of that situation. Well, Annette, is there anything else that you would like to share with us before we move to the panel discussion? These were questions that Elizabeth and I prepared. But, you know, tonight is an acknowledgement of a glorious book that you have written and shared with us. And I just wonder if there's anything you'd like us to know above and beyond the questions that we've asked. No, it's just that I'm glad that this I'm thrilled at the reception of the book. I'm happy that people think it's it's accessible and that is something that they want to read. And I'm excited about even though there are things that are going on in Texas now that are not that are cause for concern. I think I'm optimistic. I think people are standing up and people want to know the truth. And I think the reception of the book so far is indicative of that. And that we can have a respectful and passionate, but respectful discussion about history and the truths of our past. So I'm ready to have that conversation. Well, thank you. Thank you. You're going to join us as well as part of the panel. But I think what we'll do now is we'll introduce our two other panelists. Our first panelist is Reverend Halyard Brown and he's associate pastor at Little Zion Baptist Church in Orange, Virginia. And a member of the board of the Orange County African American Historical Society and being somewhat new to Orange County. I'll have you know, this is my preferred Orange County, not that other OC place they did on the other coast. The Orange County African American Historical Society is co hosting Juneteenth with Montpelier and has done so for the past six years. But the holiday is commemorated in other ways in our community as well. And I would just like to note so it doesn't get lost in the conversation that the Orange County African American Historical Society actually came to Montpelier with this opportunity to be able to host Juneteenth at our site. And we are forever grateful to be able to do that. So Reverend Halyard, you're behind my little cheat sheet here. Have you joined us? There you are. That's great. I have the first question for you before Elizabeth introduces Mary. And that is, how are churches in the Orange County area celebrating Juneteenth? Let's say good evening to all the Roy and throughout distinguished guests, Professor Annette Gordon Reed. A wonderful question. How churches approach Juneteenth. I surveyed pastors from various predominantly black churches in the Orange and surrounding counties. And as a former vice moderator, one of the area Baptist Association, I had a connection with many of the pastors that I spoke with. Also, I passed to the church in the neighboring county for 14 years. I will share what I know about honoring this great date in history in respect to churches and how they approach the holiday here in Virginia. Now, Juneteenth being a relatively new holiday for the Commonwealth of Virginia being established by Governor Norton's signature as a holiday in October 2020. You can understand that most churches do not schedule programs for the holiday as of yet. I have found, however, that many plan to include the holiday in their 2021 schedules going forward, although many remain closed because of the pandemic that we are experiencing right now. Although the majority do not have programs in their schedules, they do support community organizations hosting Juneteenth programs in other ways. Churches will support these organizations monetarily by providing their choirs and members, participating in them. Most of the participation in 2020 and to date, as you know, is virtual due to the pandemic, but yet it goes on. Orange County has been a front-runner in the Juneteenth celebration since around 2006 due to the efforts of the Orange County African American Historical Society and its supporters. The Arts Center and the Town of Orange and Mount Pilio, of course, co-host in the events. Therefore, the churches of Orange and Orange County are really a much farther along in their support of Juneteenth than many of the churches in the surrounding counties. And we can really pat ourselves on the back just a little bit for that. Every pastor that I spoke with, they were extremely excited to be able to support another historically meaningful cultural event. Many were glad to give the youth in the church an opportunity to participate in and learn of this part of their history. As we were so eloquently spoke of in the book, the majority of this celebration took place foremost in Texas. And now it is pretty much all over the country. So I want to personally thank Professor Reed for your book. And Professor Reed, it has been certainly a pleasure reading your book as well as meeting you in person. And I pray all the best for you. Thank you. Now, I also know that this book will be an inspiration for generations to come, young and old. God bless you and I thank you. Thank you. I'd like to introduce my Montpelier colleague, Mary Furlong Minkoff. Mary is the curator of archaeological collections at Montpelier. And she's also the Montpelier coordinator for Juneteenth, in which she organizes a huge number of details to make a wonderful event, which has been mostly virtual this year and last year, but we anticipate a low out celebration in 2022. So, Mary, the question I have for you is, what do you see as the role of cultural institutions like Montpelier and our sister historical sites in the recognition of Juneteenth and the discussion surrounding it? Thank you, Elizabeth, for the question and also thank you to everyone for letting me take part in this panel. I think the role of an institution like Montpelier is first and foremost is to listen and to ask questions. As Reverend Brown said, the Orange County African American Historical Society has been way ahead of the curve celebrating since 2006 and in the state of Virginia, the original emancipation day that was celebrated in Virginia was April 3 to celebrate the fall of Richmond. So there is a tradition of celebrating emancipation in Virginia that goes all the way back until the 1800s, until the 1860s. So we're really late to the party in the grand scheme of things as an institution, while being a leader amongst plantation museums, and I think the reason we have been able to be successful is instead of it being Montpelier's Juneteenth, it is the Orange County African American Historical Society's Juneteenth. And we use our resources, our national platform, our funding, our visitor base to support the efforts of our community. The Orange Virginia, much like the town Annette Grepin, is a small town. Montpelier in a lot of ways is kind of the big dog in town. We're a big employer, we're a big property. We're a center of a lot of things and so putting our efforts behind the local community and not just looking to some of the bigger cities that are about an hour away, but looking in our own backyard and supporting efforts here, I think is a really good model that other institutions with these large platforms, with these large networks of donors, of visitors can get behind. And I think the result is a better event, a more fun event, a more well attended event, and certainly what we have seen at Montpelier is on the actual celebrations of Juneteenth on property, we have people that have never stuck foot on our property before come specifically for Juneteenth, come to experience a place and then come back year after year. And then moving into this virtual space using the resources we have at Montpelier to support the effort to create websites to create videos to create virtual content. We already have had over 2000 people participate in our virtual Juneteenth celebration for this year. This June 2nd, we have already had over 2000 people log on just for this year and that is out of this world for any of us. And so I think really kind of working together, supporting the local initiatives and using the resources that our larger culture institutions have to support the work that's already being done. Don't reinvent the wheel, take the really great wheel that's there and give it a bigger platform. Thank you, Mary. I would just highlight that we have not just celebration and programming on Juneteenth this year, but Mary and Reverend Brown and the Orange County of African American Historical Society has created moments throughout the month that culminate on the 18th. And that sort of leads me to the next question for the full panel in terms of how we view the celebration or the observation of Juneteenth. And I'm curious what each of you might share as your vision for what does Juneteenth look like five years from now, 20 years from now. And whether or not you think there's impetus to make it a national holiday, or perhaps just ideas or inspirations each of you have for how you would like to see Juneteenth continue to evolve. I would like to see it evolve. I would like to see days where they do the kinds of things that you're talking about where it's not just a celebration but there would be educational things for for young people to find out to be encouraged to learn about the history of that time of what happened leading up to it and afterwards. I'd like to see it a fun day but an educational day as well. And that would be my greatest hope and there's so many since I've written this book and I've seen that there's so many books for children about on Juneteenth that I think the younger generation of people is going to come up with this as something that is more as a matter of course as it was for me but that's going to happen all over the country. So I would like to see, and this is already taking place but I would like to see it continue to be a day not just for celebration, but a time for thinking about the serious issues that were involved here with the institution of slavery and the problem of racial discrimination all of that is tied up in this in this day. In a sense in sense you sort of the two memories that you have of the importance of the day or the observation for the older people in your family in your community as opposed to for the kids in the family of the community. Reverend Brown any thoughts on five years out or 20 years out. Yeah, I hope I'll be around that long. Yes, I do. I'm in concurrence with Professor Reed has said but my concern is that we do not, we may lose our history upon young folk. And I'm concerned really of us making history very much available to them in such a way that is a fun time for them yet serious time for them to learn the history of our people. Not only of that but what is happening in the schools in that area. We have to stand up and make sure that the history is taught and the truth of the history is told. So, my, my hopes are that will continue this, not only in the present but for very much in the future that this celebration will become nationwide, and that all the churches will be involved. And they will, you know, include those type of celebrations in their scheduling in the near future. Thank you and Mary, any thoughts. One of the things I'm struck by is in Dr Gordon Reed's book, how she talked about Juneteenth and and the fourth of July Independence Day is sort of these sort of two peak points of summer and a celebrating freedom and celebrating independence and, you know, what I would say is that connection between that entire time between June 19 and July 4 be really a time where we as a country, not only celebrate these freedoms but are reminded that not everyone got their freedom in 1776. A lot of us were left out of the original draft of the Constitution. A lot of us were not included in the definition of citizenship for all the way into the 20th century and and that there's still a lot of room to go. So what I see is sort of these peers is Independence Day but Juneteenth is sort of the reminder of we're still working towards freedoms that it's a process and embracing that process and I, from my experience, working with Juneteenth for the past six years is to see that every year I have to explain to less people what the holiday is. More people are coming asking about it wanting to know what are we doing, what can I learn, what can I celebrate, and that has doubled and tripled every single year and so if we keep going at this rate, I don't think it's going to have to be a time where we say we're celebrating Juneteenth and this is what it's about. Everybody's going to go what are we doing for Juneteenth and how can we take the spirit of Juneteenth and connect it all summer long, all year long. And so 20 years from now I see it as an entire summer celebration rather than a one day peace. What do you think Annette about the future of Juneteenth as a national holiday? Well, you know, it almost I gather from Miss Opalee who has been made this a crusade, a Texan who's made this a crusade for a number of years. It almost became a national holiday. They're going to try again. And I wouldn't be surprised at all if it did become a national holiday. I read somewhere that there are only a handful of states who don't have some kind of commemoration, maybe three or four. And at that level, you've got almost a saturation point for it. It's all fall intents and purposes it is. I think if that were to happen, I think it would be a good thing. It's a good thing to have someday where you commemorate the end of slavery. Obviously, we know that slavery ends legally with the 13th Amendment is ratified, but nobody knows that and that comes at the end of December when people are doing other stuff. Some people say how about January 1 is the emancipation, you know, emancipation proclamation tying into that. Well, we already have a holiday there. And, you know, I think we definitely need someday to think about how to sort of commemorate how the how those people felt when their status changed. And when they learned that their status changed and, you know, it's not the end of slavery in all the country, but it's it's the end of the Confederate war effort. It came after they finally gave up the, you know, the armed conflict, which is an important thing to, I think, to reiterate. And, you know, I think it's possible that it will become a national holiday and it would be a good thing because all the things that we're talking about now will not that they wouldn't go forward anyway, but now they can go forward under the the aegis of the the imprimatur of of a national a national effort. If I could let's switch for a few minutes. I think what do we have you yeah we have time for a couple of questions. And so I'll remind the audience to please put your questions in the Q&A, or in the chat. And first question for the panel. Why has it taken so long for the rest of the country to learn about this holiday. Well, I think because largely I if I may take a stab at that it's because it was localized it was in Texas. I think it spread across the country because when Texas when people left Texas and moved to California and other places they began to celebrate it there as well. But it's like this country is 50, 50 separate little unit units here, and it was very, very insular for a time, and it's only been recently that it's come out so it's just, I think people just didn't know this for lack of knowledge about it and we've just started. They're talking about slavery on in a national in the sort of in a public way. We've always done it but it's been accelerated I would say in the last 20 or 30 years certainly I'm even at Montpelier Monticello, those kinds of places, you know even even in slave plantations people didn't speak about it in an earnest way. It's not surprising to me that it's not something that's generally no. Just to sort of tack on to that is that I think we alluded this to before there were so many different emancipation days celebrated locally just like Juneteenth so you know fall of Richmond in Virginia but many different areas celebrated. January 1, as Dr. Gordon we've mentioned, so you have all these different celebrations that are very localized and those celebrations kind of many of them suffered as people left or grew up but also with segregation and with the structures that were in place to limit gatherings and celebrations and sort of outward expressions so there was a time in our country where celebrating the emancipation day was pretty widespread across the nation. And then kind of that got pushed down, and it was later on into later in the 20th century where the word sort of started to spread again and I think one of the things that's so amazing is sort of the survival of Juneteenth and I. I think to credit those men who bought land to really have a physical claim into the holiday. I think is one of the reasons the Juneteenth celebration itself has been able to survive for so long because you when you can stuff on the ground and touch it physically you can't deny it in the way that you can if you didn't see the holiday that day or if you you know prevented an outward celebration. Mm hmm. And Juneteenth is a cool word. Yeah, April 3 doesn't have it. Yeah, you had the April 3. We're laughing but branding I mean they're people who have their whole careers are spent around trying to find the right word to describe something to sell and it works, you know, it works that way. It's absolutely a different date on the camp on the calendar, and it's the lack of knowledge of that date that really spawn, you know, it's not being as popular in this region as it was in Texas. It's been about 18 years off and on in El Paso, Texas. And it was celebrated like a block party when I was there and we kind of bought a little bit of it to the east when we came back here. And I was surprised that no one knew of it. Absolutely a lack of knowledge but that knowledge came with us as you said in your book, you know, the folk that lived there when they migrated to other areas, they brought the celebration with them. And so it was great to see how it spawned from that area, expanded from that area where we are now. But it was definitely a lack of knowledge why it wasn't so well so spread as it should have been. And I think a lot of it on this point of moving from one place to the next. It goes dovetails with the with the theme that I talked about in the book how Texans are have this kind of chauvinistic attitude. I mean you move to another state, and then say, hey, I'm from Texas and now we're going to celebrate this holiday from Texas. I mean, you know, why? But that's the made sense to them. You're supposed to do because, you know, everybody's gone ho about that about the state. And so they, when they went out to California and Arizona and all those places, they kept it, they kept it alive. I think your Texan ambition has been very good for Juneteenth. Yes, it definitely has. And I would say that we still do live in a world that has regional holidays that are acknowledged, you know, the individual regions or individual states. Is April 3rd a state holiday? Not in Virginia that I know of. No, see, and I think that's another thing by Juneteenth became a state holiday 79 officially in 1980. And when a state recognizes it, I think that that that's further momentum. You know, these other things people celebrate but to have the state recognize it as a day. Probably I think means a lot to the to the legitimacy of it and makes people even more chauvinistic about it, I think. Well, let me let me just ask if any of the panelists have anything they would like to discuss before we wrap work just a few minutes before eight. We promise to be close to time. We've had a lovely discussion and that with you on your book and I think some very inspirational discussions of where Juneteenth goes. But if there was a message to leave this group, which is in hundreds right now with us. What might you like to leave them with? Well message for my book generally is that we're all part of history. Now that was the fun thing about doing this is to be able to talk about to tell the story of Texas history and relate it to things that connected to my family. And everybody on this panel, everybody out in the audience could do that as well with their lives is history is not just about famous people who had big houses on mountains and things like that. History is about we were all a part of history and that's one of the things that and and because we're a part of it, we have to be truthful about it. We have to tell the truth to ourselves. We can't lie to ourselves about who we are and where we came from and how we got to be where we are. So that's, I mean, I think that's what on Juneteenth is is about and that would be a message that I would leave with people. Well, thank you. Thank you, Reverend Brown or Mary anything you'd like to leave the group before I wrap. I would just like to encourage anyone who's watching this to look up what's happening in your local area and see how you can get involved. Yeah, you can always go to the ocaahsjuneteenth.org, which is the website little plug we've created for our virtual Juneteenth celebration. But there are so many amazing things that are happening in local communities, whether it's at churches, whether it's at art centers, community centers, schools, whatever it is, look up to see what's happening in your area, how you can get involved, how you can support it because one of the things that I think has been really amazing about being involved with the celebration here is how much local history that I have learned from the community, how many new businesses I've been introduced to through the vendors that we work with and local black owned businesses, but really just different ways that you can support your own backyard, whether it's, you know, shopping at one of these businesses, going to a museum, watching a special program doing it online doing it in person. I just think there's so much that we can do in our own neighborhoods in our own states to really, you know, recognize freedom and celebrate it and also think about how much more work we have left to do. Thank you, Mary and Reverend Brown. Yes, I would like for this message of families to not forget their history, and not only not forget their history, but to share that history, it goes down through the generations. It's very important that the truth be told that they understand the part that each family had in the making of that history, and also to know that history is being made right now, that each family members should be engaged in a positive way to understand and to move forward into this building of this generation that we are striving to have right now, making this America the way that it should be. Thank you, Reverend Brown. And thank you, Mary. And thank you, Annette. I would say that I reflect as you each were closing on the importance of the work that we do with each of you and that we do with each other at Montpelier. And it's, for me, for us, it's not just about the fact that we're all part of history, but it's helping people find their place in the history. And thank you for helping us do that this evening. Very welcome. And a great hour. I always wish, you know, leading up, I think they're going to be long and then you get into it and you think, like, ah, we're over already. But here we are at the end. So thanks to each of you. And thank you, Elizabeth, for joining me in the interview and the panel discussion. And a very big thanks to our colleagues at the National Archive who listened to a plea that we really wanted to begin Juneteenth this year in a big way. And we wanted to include the Orange County African American Historical Society in the conversation because they were so, so fortunate to bring this opportunity to us originally. And so, Annette, thanks for writing this book and giving us the opportunity to spend this time. Oh, thank you for having me. Well, take care, everyone. Please join us again at the National Archive Talk and our book talks at Montpelier. Thank you. Thank you.