 Hello and welcome to Data Diversity Talks, a podcast where we discuss with industry leaders and experts how they have built their careers around data. I'm your host, Shannon Kemp, and today we're talking to Julie Smith, the director of data and analytics at Elation about her career. Hello and welcome. My name is Shannon Kemp, and I'm the Chief Digital Officer at Data Diversity, and this is my career in data, a Data Diversity Talks podcast dedicated to learning from those who have careers in data management to understand how they got there and to be talking with people who can help make those careers a little easier. To keep up to date in the latest in data management education, go to dataversity.net forward slash subscribe. And today we are joined by Julie Smith, the director of data and analytics at Elation. And normally this is where a podcast host would read a short bio of the guest, but it's your bio that we're here to talk about. Julie, hello and welcome. Hello, nice to be here. So Julie, could you reiterate your title and what is it that you do? So I'm director of data and analytics at Elation. So you may be aware that Elation is a data catalog firm. So the software that we actually produce is in the business of supporting data professionals by helping them access the data they need, et cetera. I actually represent internally to Elation who our customers would be. I look after the internal data needs of Elation as a company, so servicing the requirements and the different parts of the organization in terms of dashboards and data science, data governance and other aspects such as that. So yeah, that's what we are and what we do. Nice. So tell me, Julie, is this what you dreamed of when you were a little girl? You wanted to grow up to be a director of data and analytics? Or what did you want to do when you were young? When I was young, I don't think data and analytics was a thing. I think data was a thing, but I think that is not as commonplace as it is now, certainly. When I was growing up, I wanted to be an astronaut. Even though I'm British, I live in the UK, but grew up in the UK, I still had dreams of being an astronaut. So the fact I'm now an Elationaut, as we call them, that's all they had to offer me to come and work here. But yeah, I knew I always liked science and things like that. And I actually did a degree in physics with space science and technology. So my daughters call me a rocket scientist to their friends. But so really my education was geared to science. It was my degree was geared to science. And then somehow I sort of made the transposition into data a little bit after that. How did you get into that? What were you, how did you transition out of college and with this degree? And what kind of roles did you have? Yeah, so when I was at university, I was actually sponsored by a company sort of worked for them in the holidays between years. And the space industry in the UK was not incredibly healthy back then. And there was a bit of a demise there otherwise. So when I graduated, I sort of looked around for, you know, suitable employment. And I came across a job fair with the opportunity to join as a graduate within an IT area for an insurance company near to where I grew up. And it was one that they weren't so much bothered about you having had a computer related degree, computer studies, computer science or anything. It was more about your aptitude. And so went through various tests with them, et cetera and got selected and taken on. So I ended up in an IT department where data was very much started its life, I guess. But it still wasn't really a thing there. This is where there were still mainframes knocking around in some of the departments and stuff. But, you know, and having personal computers in the offices was relatively new. And yeah, I worked in various different parts, looking at programming, looking at business analysis and similar and stuff. And then I found myself being asked to look after the implementation or a pilot for a tool set called SAP Business Objects. Well, it's now known as SAP Business Objects. Back then it was just business objects. And the rest is history really. I got hold of the tool set, saw what it could do, saw what business intelligence could unleash with the business. And yeah, I just built on that to end up here. Ultimately. Ready to mingle with your fellow data governance practitioners? Join us in Washington, D.C. this December for the Data Governance and Information Quality Conference. Five days packed full of new knowledge, new friends and new strategies are yours when you register at dgiq2022east.dativersity.net. So is it a passion around science? Is that and what made you want to get into the business of data products and get, move that, make that transition to a company like Alation? I think that when I picked up business objects and started using it, even when I liked science and otherwise, I've been a little bit of a geek or a nerd. I'm never sure what the distinction is. But I, a lot of roles in IT, a lot of roles with data from everything would be very much you're focused on the technology, you're focused on that. What really appealed to me about working with this tool set was the interaction with the business and understanding what their needs were, understanding how it could help them and how that can help drive them. And so it, because it struggled those two worlds and I do consider myself or I'm considered a people person. I think it really appealed to me that that ability to combine the understanding and the empathy you need to have for the business people and what they're trying to do and achieve with the technical knowledge that you need to try and implement and help them and solve their problems. So, yeah, I did the work with business objects for a while, became a center of expertise for it and developed that within the company. I remember there was a day when we had particular problems to solve and so we recruited in consultants and I realized on that day, I knew more than consultant did. So I started thinking about it and I ended up going to work for a consultancy in business intelligence and information management. While I was there, I became a managing consultant. So looking after other consultants, performing consultancy, saw a range of different customers and challenges and industries related to what you do at Dataversity. I helped run the training department, teaching our customers how to use, the data environments that they'd been introduced to by ourselves, how to support it for themselves, become self-sufficient, how to design them. I'm quite passionate about making sure people understand these things and can use it and to imbue them with the same enthusiasm that I feel for data. And so, worked for our mayor and was there for about 17 years, really showing my age now. And saw so many different aspects of stuff there, but then I decided my life, which was sporadically on the road, I wanted to change that. And so I found a more local role where I went to work for a financial company and actually set up their data and analytics practice. So I joined a couple of people involved. They were existing there, really took it on, built data warehouse, data maps, the business intelligence provision for them, later joined by data science team, started to get the data governance aspects of the running. And that's when actually I became a relation customer and I like the company so much. But when I realized there was opportunities to join then my eye left at the chance. Oh, that's great. And I hear, as you were talking, I heard so much about the passion that was driving you. And that a unique skill set that you have, which is communicating and to, there's so many questions about how do I communicate to the business side? You know, from IT side, how do I bridge that gap? Was it just the passion that you let drive that? Or is there anything that you did to hone that skill? I think that passion is part of it and enthusiasm. When people see that you've got that passion and that drive, they become engaged with it. I think some of the other things were that the data can be scary. I mean, although data is very separate to IT now and it's got its own functions so people still associate it with IT and to business people who perhaps don't have a lack of knowledge, that lack of knowledge can be scary. They don't understand things. And we do have a definite inclination towards developing new terms and new trends and technologies and giving them brands that are hard for people to understand and necessarily get into. And what I found was that if I could relate it to them in a way, they could more easily understand or in terms that they understood, suddenly it was not a mystery anymore. They could understand, they could get on board and they could still feel that same enthusiasm because they suddenly felt, you know, I understand this. And I think it's a pitfall we sometimes can fall into. It is going into, you know, geek speak and terminology when actually the principles behind it are relatively straightforward if you just clear away some of the jargon and get to the point and simplify it for people. And I think that and just trying to understand them and listening to them and hearing them as the SMEs of what they need to do. I think, I think helped. I think that's so key. And so such a great answer to so many things, right? Is listening and trying to understand them instead of presuming just demanding that they know something, understanding what they need, how they need it. So, Julie, do you see the importance of data management and the number of jobs working with data increasing over the next 10 years or so? And why? I can't see it going any other way, to be honest. You know, we're not getting any less data. Unless something tragic happens to the cloud, data's not going anywhere. You know, it's going to build up and build up. New data sources are coming around and more and more businesses, even now are starting to realize what they can do with data. And they're still unlocking the potential of it and what they can do. So I see it, yeah, it's here to stay. It's going to grow. But other things, other practices, I think, are going to become more key. I think that a lot of focus was been on, you know, the exploitation of the data. So getting the data in and the dashboards and visibility of it. Data scientists were incredibly the in thing to go through and still are, you know, a huge asset in what they can produce. But I think roles such as data governance now and that area in particular, which quite often we've seen as the realms of the big corporates, the banks, the investment firms where they need it for regulatory reasons. I think that that is something which is becoming much more commonplace in other areas now where they've realized that governance isn't purely about, you know, the ticking the boxes, the making sure that we're compliant. It's about actually making your data more usable, making it more, putting the ability in it for people to use it and exploit it and not just the data scientists and the data analysts, but your business users having more direct interaction with it because they have the certainty of what the definition of that data is. They have the certainty of where to get the best source for that data. They have the certainty of the trust in that data and the quality in that data. So that's an area I see becoming much more firmly entrenched in many more organizations, which is good to see. With a robust catalog of courses offered on demand and industry leading live online sessions throughout the year, the Dataversity Training Center is your launch pad for career success. Browse the complete catalog at training.dataversity.net and use code DBTOX for 20% off your purchase. Yeah, indeed. We're seeing very much the same thing. So what advice would you give to somebody who's looking to get into a career in data management and would it be different for a data governance role versus the data scientist? So I suppose it is different. I think the way I, when I look at people and if I'm interviewing somebody and look for things, I look for two things, generally speaking is aptitude and attitude. Aptitude when it comes to being a data scientist, you know, you obviously, you like numbers, you like data, you can work through problems in that way, you've got a mathematical mind. And I think that back not so long ago, you know, if you wanted to, when you're talking about educational routes from a traditional thing, there wasn't much at university you could do or college in the US that perhaps were specific to data science. But I'm amazed now at the array of courses that people can go into straight out of school into to specialize in data and work with that. And I think that's great. I think those courses are fantastic. What I would say is if you can combine a course like that, if you want to go into a course like that and do that and take that forward, it's brilliant. Do try and get some real world exposure though alongside it. I know when we have interns at Elation, they come in and start working with the data and suddenly things aren't straightforward as it is in a classroom. And this data isn't what we were told this data is and that value is not correct and et cetera. And oh, we've got to rely on other people to do things and stuff. And it gives you, it brings you back down to earth a little bit and understanding the challenges that you're quite often face. And if you can get some exposure to in the real world, I'd say do that. And from a data governance side of things, similarly, I still think it's great if you can have a sort of technical attitude to things because getting your hands dirty in the data to understand et cetera is good. From a data governance perspective, I think there's more of a need to have those soft skills in terms of people and being able to communicate and rally the troops in terms of the organization having data stewards on side with you and working with them and helping organize and manage that around. So I see that those sort of roles having more of the soft side of it being necessary. Don't get me wrong. I'm not suggesting data scientists should be robots. They need to have feelings too. And again, the more empathy they can have for the problem they're trying to solve, the better they might be at thinking about the patterns to look for. But I see that slight difference on those. So then would like a good project management training be helpful for a data governance? Certainly, yeah, because I think they're gonna have to, as you progress through sort of the data governance types of roles, I mean, you might come in as a data governance analyst in which case you're probably pretty much self-managing based upon someone else managing a project, but as you sort of scale up and go more towards data governance lead and data governance management side of things, you will need to coordinate people across the piece. But it's, I think the thing about data governance is it's a program of work rather than a project because it doesn't cease, it doesn't end. There will be projects within it that you need to have a start and an end to get things rolling, but it's that keeping the momentum going. Projects have an endpoint data governance programs. You've got to keep that rolling. You've got to keep the improvement going. You've got to keep your data quality monitoring carrying on. You've got to keep people engaged and have those things happening regularly and not sort of weighing out. So yes, project management, but you've got to make sure it's something that looks like it is a program rather than end date. Well, Julie, thank you so much for this interview and being participating in this. Anything else you wanna add any additional plugs for elation going on? Anything happening there? Lots of exciting things are always happening in elation. I have to say it is a fantastic place to work. It's, I mean, as I say, the fact that a lot of our iconographies to do with space makes me feel a little bit like I've achieved my childhood ambition. No, it's great. I mean, what I love about it is, the diversity of the people I get to work with there still working all the different parts of the departments sales, marketing, finance, and otherwise, et cetera. And it's, but it's great as a side part to that, not just to be working in a company where I get to work with great people, but the fact that the company is driven by helping people with their data and as it's a passion of mine to know that what we're producing, albeit I'm not directly involved with the product itself, although I do try and have some sway with it. At least, I know that we're working towards greater good in terms of data and servicing the people that would have been me out there and desperate for guidance on how to use my data and how Elation helps we'll do that. And you can learn more at elation.com. Yeah, elation.com and lots of resources on there, my papers, all sorts of things to find out more about us. And if you are an Elation customer, then there's a community on there to be able to talk about all sorts of different resources. Well, folks, I'm afraid that's all the time we have for today. Julie, thank you again so much for taking the time to chat with us today. And thank you to our listeners out there. If you'd like to keep up to date on the latest podcasts in the latest data management and education, you may go to dataversity.net forward slash subscribe. Julie, thank you. Thank you. Thank you for listening to Dataversity Talks brought to you by Dataversity. Subscribe to our newsletter for podcast updates and information about our free educational articles, blogs and webinars at dataversity.net forward slash subscribe.