 Good afternoon and welcome everyone to another edition of crisis conversations live from the better life lab We started these conversations at the beginning of this pandemic to try to understand how it was affecting how we work and live and care What we expect from each other and business and the government and now that it continues on and on we're looking at What are we learning? What is it? What's what is it exposing in the cracks in our system and how can we how can we emerge from this better and stronger? So today we're going to be talking about paid sick leave The United States is one of the only countries in the world that does not guarantee all workers have paid sick leave There was an emergency bill that Congress passed earlier, which was which covers requires more Employers to offer paid sick leave and yet there are a number of exempt exemptions and it doesn't cover everyone And so the other day I was talking to Marilyn Washington she is a home health aide in San Antonio, Texas and Her employer chose not to offer paid sick leave and because of the exemptions She's not covered. She's a health worker and the new emergency legislation leaves out health workers as well as the employees of large companies who are the grocery store workers and the Delivery workers and the restaurant workers and all the people that we've come to rely on as essential So I asked Marilyn. How did that make her feel? This is what she said We're not worth it You know like oh well, you know It just make you feel like hey We have that going to make sure someone else to take care of people that are sick to make sure that they'll be able to You know to do since they can't do for they said that we have to go out there do it, but oh well as we get sick You know, this is like oh well, you know, but that's your job as a health care worker you have to go out and Take care of the people Even if it means you're risking your own health and and you know potentially your own life Yes That's how I'd make you feel I was like I'll tell them I said they don't even give us a mask I said they they don't even give me gloves. I don't even have gloves, you know But I made sure myself had gloves I wouldn't brought me two boxes of gloves and the hand sanitizer And the guy that I worked for he was saying they should have gave you gloves They didn't get I said no, I said but I brought me two boxes of good So we're very we're very lucky we have Marilyn with us today on this live call. She's in between Two different patients that she takes care of today on Friday Marilyn, let me let me turn it over to you Talk a little bit about what what what is that like the decisions that you have to make in terms of whether you go to work or not if you get sick well It's pretty hard to work Especially when you're sick and you don't want to be around you patient sick Because they already have a problem and it makes it kind of hard and it just feel like oh well, they don't care About they'll they have care workers and we'll we'll always on time no matter what and To give you an example I fell in April of last year And was very and hurt myself, but I couldn't take off. I had to continue on to work I worked all the way up into my left eye start to go like blind like Something was wrong with it. Wow, and I'll call doctor and that when I did that They had to do an emergency surgery on my eyes because it was blood behind it It was a thing busted in the back of my left eye Wow, and I had what from April all the way up into April May I think it was about the first of June when I realized my eye was bothering me so bad. I Had to go ahead and take off. Did they offer me any money? No Didn't offer anything everything come out of my pocket that I had to pay for my medicine was expensive for the first time and The first two times I had to pay like $80 that was for one medicine and then I had to pay 150 for the surgery and Then once they I had the surgery my eyes But that I have to use for my eyes is like $35 For a little ball of I've got that I have to use for the best of my life And it just feel like they it doesn't matter to them So when I call and told my mama have to have surgery and she told me okay, but be sure and don't let us know when you release Because we don't want you to go back until there. They sent us a release paper Paper and so that let you know that they really Don't care about the healthcare workers So well, thank you. Well, thank you for sharing your story, Marilyn You know, let me let me let me go over to to Jody and talk with you. So Jody Heyman She's the director of the world Policy Analysis Center at UCLA Jody. You've just come out with a Really groundbreaking new report looking at paid sick leave around the world, you know, what did you find and how You know, how does Marilyn's experience? You know what you have that same experience in other countries Thanks, Bridget and thanks so much, Marilyn for sharing that I'm I'm so sorry to hear how they're treating you and Think makes such a difference. You're sharing that experience with everybody because it really brightens home what's So exceptional and not in a good way about the United States Which is nearly every other country around the world Guarantees paid sick leave at a country-wide level. So we studied 192 countries 181 of them and these are all the top economies, but they're also low middle high-income countries they all provide paid sick leave and I think it Especially comes home when we hear this about Our health care workers our grocery store workers. This is affecting the daily lives of Everyone and it's affecting the daily lives of people providing essential services so we're not caring for everyone in our community in the United States this way and It affects the health of individuals. It also affects the spread It's part of why the pandemic is so bad in the United States is that because You know as you're saying workers are basically forced to choose if I feel ill You know, you want them to be able to stay home so that they don't spread the illness and yet if they have to choose between Not being able to pay rent or you know not not being able to afford to take that day off It makes it a very impossible choice for a lot of people Exactly exactly so right now in the United States In the absence of paid sick leave for people who don't have it We're making people make impossible choices where neither is a real choice go to work sick Make your own health worst maybe spread it to other people but You're almost expected to go to work sick because you're not You're being told you won't be getting pay you need if you don't go to work sick or stay home But then how do you cover basic costs and how do you pay for medicines for? healthcare for Rent for anything and that is just not the case in the rest of the world and just give give one other Relative fact we looked at all the other top economies because sometimes people say oh if the United States had this We'd have more unemployment. It would cost business too much But in fact the most successful countries they all provide paid sick leave to everyone So Jolene, let me turn over to you And I'm turning it my my screen to where your little box is on my zoom Paul So Jolene You are a community organizer with the Texas Organizing Project you talk a lot to a number of different workers What are you? What are you hearing? What are you seeing? What are they experiencing? I mean do some have paid sick leave and they can make a choice to stay home easier Do others not have it good? What are you seeing on the ground? well We've talked with call center workers here in San Antonio. We've also talked with waitresses I'll give you an example You know One of our leaders at Texas Organizing Project is Kevin He works at the AT&T Center. He doesn't have paid sick leave and and so when the NBA shut down our you know local Franchise he was out of a job and so many people who work in that industry You know he was working on that limited income. So he's frequenting the food bank We made sure to check in with him to make you know see that he had all of the needs taken care of but other folks like who still are going to work call center workers were required to go to work and They found out in one of them like the Coles call center that that there was an employee with COVID-19 and That unit started to get additional employees with coming down with COVID-19 and The company all the company did was said that they were cleaning giving you know doing extra cleaning and the employees themselves They're not feeling taken care of without paid sick leave many of these Workers many of these working families are Forcing themselves to go to work even though they may not feel a hundred percent well Because we can't afford to miss our rent check, you know our rent payment We can't afford not to take care of our families and if we do get sick It's a like a double whammy, you know, we have medical bills And we are also forced to take you know to take days off because we can't Go to work and so And and you know and our work is not covering our Our salary while we're out. So it's it's very difficult. It's very difficult as a You know in a low wage town that San Antonio is we're one of the poorest large cities You know in this in this country and we are I feel like on the front lines of this of this Pandemic with so many low-wage workers and so many Families who are Impacted at the worst in the worst level, you know black families and brown families Latino families are often the ones We're the ones that are working these jobs in the Hospitality industry yeah in the health care industry as well So, you know Jolene if I could stay with you when I was talking with Maryland Maryland also lives in San Antonio and my understanding is like many Well, not that many, you know, because we don't have a national policy There are some cities that have passed their own paid sick leave Laws, you know, and they'll say like restaurant workers or restaurant owners are actually Behind it in many cases. It's like look, I don't want my workers coming to work and sneezing on other people and getting my Customer sick that that's just it's not good for my workers. It's not good for my customers It's not good for my business so that you have Local businesses who are behind it some states have passed paid sick leave laws So I understand that that's happening in Texas that there have been local, you know Dallas and San Antonio that have passed paid Sick leave laws, but what's happening with them? Why is Maryland still not covered? well the industry Lobby groups have put forth a Lawsuit so they don't have money to pay their employees, right? That's their claim But yet they have funds to spend on expensive lawsuits that then have stopped our Paid sick leave laws in Texas So although residents in San Antonio hundreds over a hundred thousand residents Pushed and signed a petition to get it passed in San Antonio the industry Lobby groups including the restaurant industry the temp agencies and The manufacturers they all came together and they put forth a lawsuit that then the courts Created an injunction an injunction on our our current paid sick leave law. So Right now. We're without paid sick leave many many families They and it's over four million families in Texas alone that are working hard without paid sick leave Wow, so Marilyn, let's go back to you. I know that I think you said you were sitting in your car waiting for your next Patient to you know, who needs you? Can you you were talking a little bit yesterday when we were talking that you know You have these these patients that you care an awful lot about But that you're also the breadwinner for your extended family So yeah, you know, so now that we're in the middle of this pandemic, you know You talked earlier about You know the previous fall that you took and how you kept going to work But you know, what's that like now with a pandemic raging when you know Who knows who's infected and you know, who knows what will happen? I mean and you yourself you you're 71 years old. So you're in that high-risk category yourself Yes It makes me feel I feel kind of a lot worried stress because I feel like I don't want to stop Working because the patients that I work for they really they really need me and I Would feel like I would be putting them down if I just stop and Then I have my family to think about also because I have both of my brother and my older sister Both of them are sick and I want I take care of both of them And have to make sure that everything is well with them. So not to bring problems home to them I don't think I don't say very much But this epidemic has gotten me so stressed out because I worry about Coming home. What if I got it and I give it to them and talk to have a one-year-old That we take care of And I have to think about all of that when I come home have to think about it I make sure my master's on all day I make sure that I clean my house my hands and everything is clean Yeah, but there's still a lot of stress on you because you got I have I have the People that I'm dedicated to to go see to them And then I have my family that I'm a dedicated to not to take no virus into the home Because they're already sick Yeah And it leaves a lot of stress on you. Yes. Yeah. Thank you so much for sharing that Marilyn So Jody, let's go back to you You know again when you've looked around the world You know, is there any kind of association that you have found with? you know countries that offer paid sick leave or Comprehensive policies and spread of the disease or or what do we know from other research about why these policies are important, you know in this in this time of In in this public health crisis, but really kind of in any like influenza or you know, what do we know from the research? So So we know a lot of things from the research about just regular years The Influenza regular seasonal flu it kills tens of thousands of Americans every year It's not because more of us have had it and there's a vaccine It's not the kind of threat that COVID is but it still is a big threat and it still costs 11 billion a year Wow 11 million dollars a year You know and in the US loan and in cities and states that have passed and implemented paid sick days There's less influenza We also know just in a regular year that People get many Foodborne illnesses diarrhea vomiting why because somebody's had to go to work as a food worker sick So few have paid sick leave That one in five report. They had to go to work when they had diarrhea vomiting and that's usually infectious that Yeah, everything so so the part that's really difficult for me to fathom I know what you say is true Jolene. I know we see The lobbyists from restaurants and others opposing these bills But it's so much in their economic interest as well The businesses are just not sustainable. It's not only in our human interest But it's completely unsustainable when we get people sick Just one last thing then then that comes to cove it in fact Countries like the United States like Italy which law had Paid sick leave it didn't have it from the first day These are countries where there's a more explosive pandemic Paid sick leave alone is not enough to stop the spread But it's an essential component because people just can't stay home without it You know so so with this emergency legislation that Congress passed, you know It did offer or it does offer starting April 1st started offering 10 days Of paid sick leave to people who worked for companies of less than 500 employees So if you work for a larger employee, you are out a larger employer. You weren't covered It also enables small employers to petition to opt out, you know, if they can prove that it's an economic Going to be a hardship for them and it also exempted health workers like Marilyn and first responders you they could also opt out So Jody, one of the things I'm wondering is You know has anyone Do other companies kind of like slice and dice the the workforce like this and say some can be covered and others can't and I think the other thing to point out. It's that this this legislation It's emergency and it's temporary and it expires at the end of the year. So How does this how does the u.s compared to others in terms of you know, kind of slicing and dicing the workforce? All 181 countries these were permanent policies. So none of these expire and in all 181 countries They cover every size firm small medium and large. So Sometimes they cover them differently. They might have some social insurance to help Cover the parts of the cost for smaller companies Or to help cover some of the costs for long sick leave Because many of them have six weeks six months and longer but zero Decided that If you were an employee, you wouldn't be covered because of your firm size And so to that point to to firm size And you know, I'd love to bring in my colleague Haley Swenson at this point. She's the deputy director of the better life lab and she and our Rosalind Miller our policy analysts have been doing an amazing job since the The pandemic started really looking at the large companies the large employers who were exempted from the paid sick leave law to see if they have voluntarily offered to To have paid sick leave to cover their employees How difficult it is for employees to actually access it who's been silent So I'd love to have a haley come in and talk about, you know What are you finding in in tracking some of these largest employees? Employers that that have been exempted from paid sick leave Hi, thanks for bringing me in Bridget. I think this is such an important conversation What we've been noticing as we're tracking these companies that are exempted from the emergency sick days legislation that passed in april I'm sorry late march Is that a lot of the companies that are employing mostly low wage workers service workers interacting with the public Of course, we're contagion and spread our problems not just for the workers, but for the customers who are relying on them The the companies that are voluntarily offering a policy There's a real shortcoming to them, which is that most of them are requiring doctors confirmation That it's a covet related absence. Um, and as we know with testing so, um Slow and lackluster And insufficient and the fact that so many americans don't have access to Regular medical care. I think there's a real concern that that's almost impossible for workers to get And so if you need that kind of doctor's note before you can stay home that it's going to actually Prevent you from being able to use the policy even if it's written on the books um You know, I think a lot of white white collar workers would be pretty insulted by their employers requiring a doctor's note before they could Take a sick day like my sick day processes. I slack Bridget and I say, you know, I don't feel well I can't work today and that's that So i'm wondering if there's any evidence in these other countries that have national policies That workers are abusing the policies. Do they need doctors notes? I mean, it just seems like red tape that is To me built on a sort of prejudiced idea that that low-income workers would abuse this system with no evidence that that's the case Yeah, you know Let me go back to julien. It looks like you you were wanting to jump into the conversation um, you know Can you know, can you talk to talk about that and then also about about what's happening in in texas? You're one of the states where everybody's eager to open up now, right? that's right and um on the point of you know abuse of paid sick leave, we find that that uh employees really are judicious about when they use their paid sick leave and And they oftentimes don't use all of it And some don't use any at all. They're saving it up for emergencies And they're saving it up for times when they are sick or when they have to take care of their child So, um, that's, you know, the abuse of paid sick leave is something that Doesn't the facts don't bear that, you know that story out. It actually is that employees are Are very responsible with the way that they are using paid sick leave and In texas unfortunately the governor greg abbott was very eager to open up our state and And really his the people he he really listens to are business owners who are putting The lives of working families on the front lines. So we're opening up restaurants and nail salons and we're opening up all kinds of, you know industry across the state And we do not have the protection of paid sick leave here in the state of texas and What the result is is we're continuing to see the infection rates You know come, you know rise and we're also knowing that That things are not we're not prepared as a state to handle the healthcare crisis that may result from this And that our families are hurting the most Where we are the ones who are least able to quarantine because we are forced to go out and in into work And potentially bring this back and we also face difficulties with child care If our families are out there having to to work in our schools are closed down as they are then One of our our members who is also a care provider said she had to make a difficult decision to leave the older, you know 12 and 14 year olds in charge of the younger ones at home Because the schools were closed and she still had to go to work And and we're just faced with so many inhumane just you know choices Here in texas in particular. I just have to say, you know, greg abbott has not put The black and brown community at the forefront of these decisions when making The choice to open up our economy because really our lives and our families are on the front lines without paid sick leave And if we do not consider the majority of the state Then our state is still going to suffer economically Our health is going to suffer and you know our families right now We're doing without food on the table and it's not going to get better to open up Before we're ready and before we've taken care of each other's health Right, you know and you make a really good point that you know in some of the In the case of the worker who had to leave her children with her Not Not so You know old, you know her children who were not who are not so old You know Workers who worked for large employers were also exempted from The emergency paid family leave lot so that you would be able to take time Away from work if you had if your children's schools were closed or their childcare centers were closed Well, the same people who are exempted from paid sick leave who are a lot of the same communities that we've been talking about They're also exempted from paid family leave. So they do not have that either So at this point, let me let me turn back to you, Marilyn You know, you're you're on the front lines of this every day Um, you know, as you think about this, what is it that that you would that you would hope for? What would what is it that you hope that we learn from all of this? And how can we make this better for all workers for all for our public health? As well as for the economy and and as jody argues That when you do this for workers, you're actually improving things for business What do you hope that we do that will learn out of this? I was hoping and trying that they will learn that although we they look at us as the law working people that I wish they would learn that things would come out that they would do something to get together and Think about the low working class people like me. We we look at they look at us just as Home health providers, but we just like the nurses at the hospital We go in they sick. We take care of them. We worry about them We do what we can for them and we try to make them as comfortable and when we go in We try not to show we don't show no kind of stress or upset To upset them But i'm praying that we That the government look at it and give us paid sickly if they have to understand that We're putting our life on the line just like anybody else and they need to Let the home health home care people have paid sickly All right. Well, thank you so much for for that maryland and thank you to all of the the panelists today Jody thank you for for being here and for the amazing research that you continue to do Jolene, thank you so much for sharing the stories of so many workers in in texas and and Appreciate you bringing that perspective maryland. It was delightful to speak with you again today. Thank you so much I'd also Yeah, thank you here and you know, I'd like to thank all of the participants Thanks for being part of these conversations. We really appreciate your your stories and perspectives And Next week, we'll be talking more about home health. This was a it's supposed to be a A response to nursing homes, you know, so that you wouldn't have what we what we're seeing now in the covid crisis just an inordinate number of Infections and in this in this area And we'll be talking actually it'll be a hopeful story that the state of washington is doing some very interesting things to make sure that That workers like maryland are valued and that these are good and decent jobs And so it's it's going to be hopeful what we can learn from washington. Maybe there'll there'll be Lessons that we can all adopt moving forward to make these Decent dignified jobs that we all rely on as people say I think I didn't who says it well This is the work that enables all other work to be done So thank you so much. I'd like to thank my my wonderful better life lab team the new america Events team who are so fantastic every week My producer david shillman is fantastic Thank you all so much for being part of these conversations at wash your hands. Take good care and we'll see you next week