 All right, give it a few seconds, fantastic. All right, hello and welcome everyone and thanks for joining the Drupal in government round table this afternoon. I'm Griff, I'm the project manager at Skipper and this afternoon we'll be hearing from Ian Laslet. He's a director at EY with broad experience across technology and digital experience platforms. We're gonna be hearing about how his team made auditing standards more accessible and easy to understand and then we'll open up the floor for sort of a general discussion on the usage of Drupal in government. Before we dive into that, this session is sponsored by Skipper. Skipper is a containerized hosting platform built to host portfolios of Australian and New Zealand government Drupal websites. If you're interested in learning more, please reach out to me or many of the members of the Skipper team at Drupal South or on our socials, we'll be in touch. Okay, that's enough from me. Over to Ian. Hey guys, welcome. For those that don't know me, my name's Ian Laslet. He's introduced, I'm a director at EY in our digital emerging tech practice and for a number of years, I ran a digital agency called Adelphi Digital and we did a significant number of projects in Drupal and in particular in government prior to being acquired. Over the last few years we've been working, I guess in the big government space with a lot of large clients, particularly across the federal government space on their projects, we use a range of platforms for doing that including Drupal, but a whole bunch of other products and solutions in amongst that as well. And today I'm gonna be talking about auditing standards. When I joined EY, I knew nothing about auditing or anything about auditing standards and I still know nothing about auditing or auditing standards, but I do know a user experience problem and a problem that can be solved through some research and design that has helped deliver for our clients something that was quite different, I suppose, to what they had in the past. So I'll talk you through and these are meant to be very quick kind of 10-minute talks. So I'll give a quick 10-minute overview of the work we did and then we'll jump into a bit of a discussion about Drupal in government and happy to hear any feedback from people about how it's been used and what's going on across the industry. So a little bit of background. So the Auditing Standards Board is effectively the organization that regulates auditing in the country. It doesn't sound very exciting to you and I. It probably isn't very exciting, but yet for some reason, it is very exciting to auditors. There's actually a number of courses at uni obviously around auditing and there's a bit of a YouTube star that goes out and promotes auditing standards work and this video, she developed a video that focused on the work that we've done at the Auditing Standards Board which we thought was pretty cool and it's kind of used as a showcase for how to develop a better user experience for something that's really a pretty mundane kind of problem. So just to give a little bit of background on the way we approach the project, we worked very, very hard initially, I guess, to do a whole bunch of discovery and research. We sat down with students who were looking at learning auditing. We also went and talked to auditors which was incredibly exciting. They are very, very interesting people. And then we developed some design work, specified what they might look like and developed a prototype version of the site. We iterated that through further design and development work and following on from that afterwards, we developed a beta version of the site and the site was in beta for about seven or eight months testing with real users before launch. So it really followed the kind of digital service standard process that we need to follow when delivering digital projects these days. So a quick understanding of the problem for you all. What previously used to happen was all these standards used to be published as big PDF documents and I'm sure it's a problem that is the same across government in all kinds of spaces. In this particular example, they took these hugely complicated legal documents and released them as PDFs. And that was the only way you could access them. You'd go and download a 100, 200 page PDF that had your auditing standard as part of it. And in that, there was lots and lots of links to other parts of standards, lots of links to external documents, lots and lots of problems in terms of people understanding the context of what they were reading, lots of legal jargon and all kinds of things in there that made it really difficult, I guess, to unpick the documents. So what we did was talking to users, we understood what they were trying to do. They were really trying to read all these documents together and it really became a digital and user experience problem to design something that would meet their needs. The other side to it was internally, there was some complexities about how the auditing staff wanted to publish and manage their, their documents, things like they wanted automatic paragraph numbering, they wanted links created that were kind of referential so that if something changed, the link would always update and things. And also they had about four or five different styles of links so you couldn't just use the standard linking module and things like that when building the site. So that meant there were lots and lots of, I guess, dramas around how did the UX work. So just to quickly work through the solution, in here, we developed a portal here and down here you've got all your auditing standards and when you go into one of the auditing standards, these are all preambles, you particularly pick one of these, you get a huge amount of details about the audit and we've kind of summarized the user experience here into a nice overview of what's going on. In a particular standard, you'll find lots and lots of references, so when you click on a reference, rather than having to download the PDF document and bring it up separately, you could bring it up on the right hand side here and for every footnote, every reference and things, it continues to build up a picture on the right hand side of what's going on so that you can read the whole document in context of the original link that you had while you were opening, had it open with you. May not sound that exciting, but this is a huge revolution for all of the users and the users who tested it were really happy with this because basically it meant instead of printing off thousands of pages of documents, they could just sit here online, bring up their standards, work through the various sections and the various parts of them to get it all working. The other things that they were really interested in were things like embedded copying functionality into the site, so every paragraph, you can copy the whole thing, so you can embed it in your other documents, you can create direct links to every single paragraph within the solution so that you can directly ask us and send it off to someone and say, this is the paragraph I'm referring to, in particular around a legal document, and send them a link and know that it will always be the correct link and will be maintained over time. So the whole project was developed, I guess, to make the user experience really, really easily. Even things like the whole standard being developed as a nice kind of sliding table of context, accessibility settings like being able to pick your own font sizes and things like that as well, will include it in the overall solution. And you can jump between particular sections just using the navigation on the left-hand side. All the standards have now been populated in this way and it's really made a big difference to the user experience and the approach to how people are dealing with auditing standards. And for someone like me who knows nothing about auditing standards, you can actually go into this site now and read a little bit about it, read a little bit about something that you might be interested in and actually get a sense of what the organization does, what the auditing standard is about and how it all works. So that was the UX problem. That was the solution that we did. It's really something I think that's pretty interchangeable across government. We've had a few other agencies now come to us and say, can we do something similar with our documentation? Can we build up a nice portfolio of this for really complex legal documents and really make them work across agencies? So we're working with a few other agencies now on potentially releasing a similar type of functionality across there. Cool. That was about all I wanted to share because we only went to talk for 10 minutes. So we might open it up for some discussion and questions at this point. Yeah, I might just flag with everyone. If you've got any questions, do you mind popping them in the live Q&A section? I think there might be somewhere else to chat, but that'll make it much easier to moderate. All right, well, we've got a few sort of to start a bit of conversation, Ian. So I think let's just start pretty high level. So what do you think of the future of Drupal in Australia and New Zealand government looks like? You've pretty effectively used it, yeah, to deliver auditing standards, but do you think it has a place in those governments? I think it's a good starting point for discussion, I think, and it'd be good to hear from the audience, I think as well. In terms of overall, I think there's a perception with Drupal that maybe it's used for informational sites or maybe you can't build complex integrations or it's not suitable for certain more complex workflows. And I think you see that people are potentially moving off things like GovCMS and moving to other platforms or moving to commercial solutions. And that potentially could be causing, I guess, some kind of drama where Drupal's not really getting the benefit of the doubt in a sense. Maybe the perception around GovCMS has been that it's a bit restrictive, the service times are too slow sometimes. It's really hard to build into because you can't just pick and choose whatever modules you want, you can't add them into the release very easily and things like that. And I think that's causing a, perhaps a little bit of a slowdown in the take up of Drupal in government when you look back maybe two years ago, there was a huge interest in it and a huge push to kind of take it up. And I think that momentum is perhaps slightly slowed down at this point, but very interested in other thoughts around that as well. Do you think it's a presentation and understanding maybe a perception problem that Drupal has? That sort of it's more seen as that CMS and then you're doing content stuff with this and you go elsewhere to do, you mentioned complex integrations. Yeah, I think it's a perception issue for sure. I mean, the things like, I'm working with a say a number of federal government clients at the moment who already run say a number of Drupal sites or run GovCMS sites as well. But they've kind of boxholed it into this shape where it's just for kind of the idea that it's for informational sites or very simple sites. And they're not really considering it as a platform that could be used and grown out for developing, say, their complex forms or some of their more application type processes. So, yeah, I think it's a challenge there in perception. And it's a real shame in some ways because I think you can build, obviously, we're all sitting here on a Drupal conference and it would be good to kind of get a bit of perspective from other people, I guess, about what they're seeing in the industry and things as well. Yeah, certainly. So what do you think the barriers are to using, you know, expanding Drupal's use in government or maybe even opening it up further and open source? Like you mentioned, the people of turning and going to sort of private products and offerings as alternatives. What are the barriers to Drupal and open source that you see? Yeah, I think one of the big barriers is the perception around security. There's an issue potentially with open source where people say, I don't wanna use open source because then I have to protect it myself, particularly in terms of government. People are always worried in particularly with all the issues around cyber security in the last year or two. People are hugely concerned about security. And I think open source has got this bad rat potentially. And obviously we had kind of Drupal getting one and two over the last five years for those that have been working in the industry for a while and you've seen various hacks and infiltrations into Drupal. And I think that's caused potentially a perception that the platforms are not secure and not safe for people to use. And I think, you know, Owen's just joined us now as well. And Owen, interested in your thoughts around why you think there's this barrier to entry, perhaps in Drupal and how you think Drupal and government is going for the future. So having me. I will just note anyone else that's in the audience, if you wanna join this discussion, it is an open round table discussion and we would like to open it up. Please just put a question into live Q&A and you can actually be brought to the stage. So the question is, what are the barriers to entry and how can we kind of solve those? So I've done quite a lot of work around this just in terms of Drupal community development. I might have seen talks that I've given at other Drupal conferences in recent years. It's a topic of discussion that we have a lot within the Drupal Association. So I'm on the board of the Drupal Association. We're looking at it from a global perspective. And it's this constant conundrum of Drupal is 20 years old. I started using Drupal almost 15 years ago. Got a lot more gray here than I had back then. And at that point in time, Drupal was the kind of hot new thing that everyone was jumping on board with. And I think like any technology, you have this kind of adoption curve where it's the hot new thing, people kind of jump onto it. It starts getting used in a very broad way. And as it gets used on bigger and bigger projects, the consequences become a lot more serious. And so people need to really professionalize their experience of using Drupal. So it's definitely moved from this, I suppose I don't really like using the word hobbyist technology, but it was very much a grassroots technology back in the early to mid 2000s. And now it's a corporate technology that's used by the biggest organizations in the world. And I think the biggest issue that we see is that it's not kind of decoupled reacts, JS apps. It's not building mobile apps. It's not the kind of cool new technology. However, it is running these mission critical websites around the world and they do need people with this high level of expertise. So a couple of things that we've talked about in recent years are trying to reach out to people that work in other technologies of a similarly serious nature and educate them about where Drupal can fit into their stack and how they can then kind of migrate across into the Drupal world. I think the best advertisement on that count is that from a career perspective, you have enormous career longevity if you're working with within Drupal. I mean, I've been working in digital for more than a quarter of a century now and more than half that has been working with Drupal. So it's a testament to the longevity that you can't have as a career. Sorry, I'm rambling on. I hope that answers your question. No, I think it does answer the question and I think there's a, you know, what I see in the industry with my clients and what's going on, I guess, is this, you know, there's pockets where people are moving probably in particular in the corporate world, there's a big push potentially to move to some open source solutions and things. I think for whatever reason, government always seems to be hesitant and I think we were talking, you know, in this session particularly around Drupal and government and I think you look at some of the larger agencies in government and I still think there's a perception issue in that sense around the use of Drupal and the use of open source and particularly a challenge for those organizations to probably convince their internal, their CIOs and so forth that, you know, they should pick something that isn't a, you know, hasn't got a Microsoft sticker on the front of it or hasn't got one of the kind of big tech industry player stickers on that kind of thing because as soon as you move away from those platforms, there's this massive risk aversion in government and I think that causes a lot of the dramas and I think there's also, you know, to be fair, there's probably a skills shortage out there as well. You know, in terms of really quality technical skills, both in terms of building and developing sites but also maintaining and supporting and I think there's a real challenge there, you know, in terms of how you get the capacity and capability to support instead of doing, you know, as you say, I would maybe a hobbyist type solution where you've got, you know, people building their own sites or their small business sites or their own informational sites and all of a sudden you're dealing with, you know, a million visitors a day on some kind of big corporate or big government site and things that the scale and the complexity in what you have to support and maintain requires a different set of skills than some guy kind of coding in his basement as we, you know, just building a site on his own. And I think that's the challenge for the industry as a whole is how we skill up those people and also make others outside the kind of Drupal community aware of what the platform is doing as well. I think we're very good in the community and a lot of us, I see a lot of people today who I've worked with and who I've met over the years at various conferences and things, but, you know, how do we grow that pool of people that's interested in the solution and how to actually get it to a better state? I guess open to thoughts on that as well from Griff or Owen or anyone else. Yeah, I mean, I think one of the things that I often come back to is customers will buy what they're being sold by vendors. And I think the interesting thing that we've seen in the last couple of years, which we've obviously had experience with is the large consultancy and systems integration firms moving into the open source space and starting to offer solutions in that regard. And I think that's definitely provided validity for that approach with these larger customers and the more that that occurs for Drupal from that perspective. Good to hear from you and what your experience has been in terms of moving into a larger organization like that. Yeah, it's funny, I guess. I guess going back for those that knew us when we were at Delta Digital, like we had probably 250-odd staff and probably 50% of our work was Drupal-based or so at the time. So quite a decent size. And we joined EY about two and a half years ago and in that timeframe, our business at the time, which we thought was a decent scale, we joined a business that has, in terms of staff, there's 8,000 people working in Australia alone in EY and there's like 1,500 of those are in our technology business kind of thing. So what we thought was a decent-sized business, all of a sudden you were kind of part of this massive machine in a sense where there's big service offerings around Microsoft and SAP and all those other bits and pieces that make up a kind of, I guess, a big consultancy offering. And Drupal, to be fair, I mean, we still do a fair amount of Drupal work, but we've also had to then diversify the skills that we had to work with some other platforms. In the kind of big industry world, it's still hard, I think, to go out and get a 10, $20 million deal on doing anything related to Drupal, whereas the deals around Microsoft and some of those things seem to flow through pretty easily because, I think, CIOs and because others of big organizations are quite familiar with that kind of scale of deal. So joining EY, I think it was a real challenge and almost an eye-opener to come in and say, well, how do we pitch a team that's done a lot of this work to an organization that really doesn't even understand, say, digital development particularly well? They're so used to product offerings and kind of wrapping themselves around a big vendor partner or something to get a deal done when we were kind of in there almost on the ground level building solutions and sites that was part of the overall solution offering, but it might have now become a small chunk of what is a much, much bigger deal and things like that as well. So it's a pretty hard market in the big four, I think, even to get into that space. I know Deloitte does a fair amount of Drupal work and I know some of the team out there quite well, but I think it's a similar situation there. It's much harder to get the deals over the line in the open source space with the big clients than it is the commercial space would be my take on it. Yeah, I mean, I think my experience with that as well has been those big firms, they'll have their Sitecore offering, they'll have their Adobe offering, they'll have their Microsoft offering, not so much in the CMS space anymore. And there's always that tension between, okay, well, are we cannibalizing work from another division within the organization by pushing a new offering? And I think my understanding of what's happened within that space is it's more been driven by the client coming to these organizations and saying, well, we've adopted Drupal, and if you want to work with us, then you have to offer that to us. And that's been the trigger as opposed to those big consultancies seeing the opportunity there and then building it around that. And to be fair, the response is, we will do what our clients ask us to do. Yeah, and I think I'm thinking back to some of the bigger deals around Drupal in government over the last few years, right? And those kind of deals are, I think you're right, client driven. So you've got clients coming in and going, oh, you know, we've already picked the platform or we're already using Gov CMS, for example, in some of our solutions, but we want a more fully featured Drupal offering. And there are some departments and some of the bigger ones as well who have said, well, therefore our overall platform will be Drupal and we want to push a whole bunch of things into that. But I still think it's certainly not the norm and it's certainly compared to, there might be 95 deals that are Microsoft or SAP or some of these other technologies. And in the CMS space, you're right, whether it's Sitecore or Adobe and things like that as well. And then all of a sudden there'll be a thin sliver of which is open source. So I think it's disappointing in some ways as a taxpayer and as a member of the community that open source doesn't get more of a look in and some departments and agencies just default to buying a commercial product because it's seen as safe and easy for them to do that. So I think there's a real challenge there. To kind of get visibility with those senior executives about what the product can do. And the fact that it is so broadly used in an enterprise space around and around things that aren't just informational sites but in complex problems and things as well. So this is something that came up in today's news around I think the digital transformation agency is kind of wiped their hands of government design system that's been in place for the last few years. Are you familiar with that story? Yeah, yeah. Yeah? Yeah. So I think it's worth talking about because if we rewound this conversation to 10 years ago and the move was very much let's ensure that open source is considered as part of each project and that was mandated within the Department of Finance. I think it still is the case that there is a mandate there that open source must be considered. There was a big push towards accessibility. Many problems of which still exist today a decade later. And there was this push towards not so much uniformity but reusable components. So whether those components are code components or design components. And I think this story that came out today people aren't familiar with it and probably knows more about it than I do but there had been a common design system across government sites that anyone building in the new site could leverage. And that had been maintained by the Digital Transformation Office. And the news of today is that they are now no longer maintaining that I think the official line is we're leading it to the community. So yeah. That one's an interesting one I think because that design, I don't even know the design framework I guess is a good word for it is it was not I think as widely used or as widely accepted as it could be. I mean there was a big push particularly from and I think it comes down to politics a lot of the time as it always does in government that some of the agencies were just like well we don't want to use that it's not really part of our thing. They didn't like the DTA pushing and mandating these things. The DTA's roles also changed recently in the most recent mod changes that the DTA is not kind of going to be responsible so much for kind of driving these things but it's more going to be on the other side of the fence in terms of checking that people are following say the procurement guidelines and those kind of things rather than driving new solutions and delivering kind of I guess expertise in that sense. So the DTA's roles changed a little bit. The design standard was one example among casualty perhaps of the fact that the DTA and the DTA have not had a great experience in pushing out their knowledge and expertise to a lot of the agencies and there was some big pushback from certainly some of the large agencies about what the DTA was doing and basically being told the DTA to go away. We know what we're doing. We're a large service to the free agency for example. We don't want to have the DTA budding into our world. We want to deliver things on our own. We know what we're doing. We don't need your help DTA. Thank you very much. And I think that design standard as noble as it was in ideas was kind of hamstrung from the start and without a mandate or without a kind of a real push from probably from a ministerial level to say this is how you approach in digital and things like that. Then it's a real loss for the whole of government in a sense because now there's nothing in your back to agencies and departments kind of doing their own thing without any guidance at all, which is unfortunately with the political world that we live in I think that you're gonna see that continuing and less there is a real push to change how digital is done in government. And I can't see that happening in the short term even with the, I don't know for those who read the government's 2030 kind of digital agenda that came out earlier in the year. You see in there there's some kind of big programs of work around say identity and around trade standards and a few other things, mapping and things in there. But it didn't, it was really interesting because they released this big program of work but in that they didn't really give it an owner. They didn't really say, you know, this minister and this agency is responsible for it all and they're accountable for making sure it all happens over the next nine years. So instead you get bits and pieces of it divided up and chunked into different agencies who are trying to deliver parts of it and it's just become I guess another thing in government where one agency wants to own it and doesn't do anything about developing a standard and things like that as well. So, but an interesting take anyway on what's going on with government. So we're effectively back to square one. Well, you're like, and you're right, like thinking back, you said, you know, we're going back 10 years ago, we, you know, we were thinking about accessibility being an issue and pushing the use of open source. And I feel like the last year or two, particularly since COVID, it maybe it has gone a little bit backwards in that sense that those topics are not resonating within government at the moment. As I was saying before the DTA has kind of lost their role a little bit in that space. So who's going to pick up on an issue of these things? And we see even things like GovCMS obviously being reasonably successful from the Department of Finance but also a lot of agencies now moving off it. So I guess, interesting in your experience, Alin, or Griff, about, you know, why you think people might be moving away, say from GovCMS and dripping in that sense as well, where you think people are going and why that might be. I could probably talk to it from counter management perspective, you know, a previous next and with Skipper, let's skip focus kind of a competitor, but, you know, we have quite a few clients especially on the SAS model that are required to go with or, you know, instructed to choose GovCMS as their provider. And for the PASS model, you know, as soon as your requirements get a bit more complex or let's say unique, we recommend that they take that path. You know, there are benefits to using that platform and that solution for long-term support, I think it's probably a good way to frame it, but there are difficulties when you have to sort of work within that framework and that box. But it does still seem to be quite popular in the levels of government that we're working at, which is primarily federal, I would say, at least in my experience. Well, I mean, it's someone that has led a whole bunch of GovCMS projects recently. Yes, well, I've been involved in them. They're still popular and they're still definitely still going on, but, you know, I think it's probably now been a couple of years GovCMS has been available and is an offering in the space and now, you know, coming back around to companies choose to double down or to go with it again. We do have one client that's rebuilding again on Drupal 9, or maybe not Drupal 9, but is rebuilding their GovCMS SAS site. So have learned some things and have chosen to go it again, but mainly because of that instruction that they should do that, maybe not from a desire. Yeah, it was instruction within their department, though is that something that you're seeing kind of pushed or was it kind of more of a global government push? Because I think the global government push, I feel, has dropped off a little bit. You know, you had finance pushing it quite hard in that first year or two, but now less so perhaps. Yeah, I would say it's from an internal, we have done this. This is how we build our sites. We're doing it again rather than everyone is doing this. This is the way Australian government sites are built. I would still say there's quite an appetite and Drupal, as mentioned a few times today throughout the sessions is the go-to provider and this go-to CMS platform at various levels and post COVID or in the second COVID second year, so to speak, Drupal is definitely still, there's still tenders coming out and there's still appetite, interests and activity in there, at least from a website development standpoint. But probably less so, we need you to work in the go-to CMS space. Yeah, you're right. I mean, there's still demand, right? And there's a big Drupal 9 push obviously at the moment to kind of get people upgraded and running on the latest versions and things like that. That's part of it, I suspect. I think there's a big, and maybe this is just exposure from now working in kind of a big fall. I mean, the bigger end of town seems to have taken that and done there. Why can I look at services Australia and I look at places like even Desi and places like Health and things like that who have done some work and a lot of work potentially in go-to CMS, but now also looking at other platforms for other parts of their solution as well. So, and they're not even considering Drupal in some cases for what they're doing in that space. So, and there's a lot of users and a lot of dollars behind some of those places that make it, as a supplier in the industry, you want to get some of that work, but it's actually really hard then to push open source if it feels like the decision's already been made to potentially move away from a Drupal or even move away from open source in that sense and go to something else as well. So, I think a real challenge potentially in some of those bigger places to get that done and people have done those sites already and now we're going, well, what else can we do? We'll try something else and move on a little bit as well. And what alternatives do you see frequently considered? You know, if people are already making these decisions or it's not strictly Drupal or it's not strictly go-to CMS anymore, what is it being entertained or, you know, we're open to looking at other platforms? I think in the, it's interesting, even the branding around it has changed a little bit. So, you talked about content management systems before. I think what I'm seeing now is the language that the big agency is about the digital experience platforms, so they may be looking at the Adobe's and Cycles of the world and kind of saying, well, you know, that's where the commercial world is branding themselves and kind of saying, this is the stuff we can do. Now, I'm not saying there's been a heap of deals in that space, there's some very public ones that people would be aware of already, but, you know, there is, I think, a sentiment within some of those bigger organizations that potentially those solutions are a better fit, whether they are or not is really kind of up to the individuals involved to make their own decisions based upon what they're trying to do. But certainly, it's pushed a lot of work, potentially, to some of those vendors that they may not have been seeing in the past and things as well. So, and also, I guess, things like even some of the, I guess, if you look at the magic quadrant stuff, obviously, those two are kind of in the top corner, but you've got your life-raising, your EP server, whatever it's called now in the middle as well kind of thing and those kind of platforms, which were, we're getting almost no traction two or three years ago, I think, starting to get a little bit of traction again now in the market and moving some things off Drupal into some of those platforms has become kind of another project as it were as well. I think my experience with that has been primarily the digital experience platforms do a very good job at marketing themselves in that context. And they can go into a client and say, well, we're going to take care of all of your CRM and all of your email communications, yada, yada, yada, it's a complete package. And it's a very slick package and people know that if they sign on the dotted line, there's a kind of suite of features that they're supposedly going to get. Obviously, the experience of deploying those platforms can often be quite different to what the sales pitch might have been to begin with. And I think Acquia, obviously we had Dries talking earlier today, but they've definitely kind of gone down that path of saying, OK, well, Drupal is one component of our Acquia digital experience platform. And we've got our personalization engine and marketing platform and all of those types of things combined into a neat package. I think where we, as I'm putting my previous next hat on, have tried to steer the ship is Drupal can still fit with all of your best of breed technologies. And this is a line that we've pushed for quite a while. So if you are using Marketo for your automation, if you're using Sejari for your enterprise search, if you're using whatever email platform, Drupal is still a really important form to be able to integrate with all of those things. And it creates a much more modular approach that clients can use. So when the new cool thing comes along, you pull that out and replace it. But you've still got your core platform there. And that means that the longevity of your platform is probably going to be a lot more robust. And we've definitely seen that with clients like Service in South Wales, who have a myriad of different platforms that Drupal is connecting with in various ways. And those platforms come and go, but Drupal has stayed in there for a solid decade now. So that's been. Yeah, and I think that I mean, that's right. I think that agencies like Service in South Wales picked a particular approach, right? Where they've said, well, this is part of our core platform offering and they might do some other stuff around that. And they might have different products behind the scenes in terms of CRM and other spaces. But they've said, you know, we want that kind of Drupal platform in the core of it. And some agencies have gone down that path. I mean, certainly that's what Desi were doing at the federal level for a long time. And some of the other agencies have been saying that they're doing health it amongst others. But I do think in those agencies, there's certainly a push from probably more from the business areas than the technical areas in some ways to say, well, what else is out there? What else is in the market that we can use or look at as well? And how will that work with all these other products that we've constantly been sold? You know, none of these things these days are kind of implemented in isolation. Certainly not in the big departments, right? You're integrating into whatever back end systems they might have, into CRMs, into workflow systems, into all kinds of stuff as well. And the other side to it, I guess, is that you've got really weird players coming into the market kind of things, like people like Salesforce saying, all we can do all your web stuff now is a Salesforce web thing, which not that it's any good, by the way, but it's just something that has been pushed. ServiceNow doing the same thing. So if you're looking at people running big ServiceNow implementations, they can say, ServiceNow go in there and do this whole spiel that says, oh, we'll do all your web on ServiceNow as well. And it's like, huh? To me, that makes no sense. Yet it resonates in the market because all of a sudden people are saying, well, I've already got this big platform. Why can't I just tack my web on the front of it as well? And therefore off you go. So how complicated can a website be? Exactly right. Well, how hard can it be? Completely right. And so I think it's really strange you're building a website into what effectively is a workflow management tool like a ServiceNow. Yet people are doing that. And kind of with potentially poor user experience and poor design outcomes and things because the platform's not really designed for it yet. From a COO point of view, it ticks a lot of boxes because there's one maintenance contract. There's one net to strangle if things go wrong. It's all kind of in the same platform all in the same cloud. They've already done the security certifications, everything they need to do. So all of a sudden a lot of headaches go away from their point of view. Now whether it's right from a content authoring and content management public process, probably not. But that's the kind of thing that Drupal is contending with in some of these big organizations where they just sold a platform that already is in there and say, well, you've got to use this and get on with that kind of thing. So it does make it hard. What could be the end of our time? And I haven't seen any Q&A questions come through. So if anyone can send any burning questions or any questions for Ian and Owen through, I can ask those. But one thing I did want to ask Ian was more around, we've really been speaking about the high level of government at that federal and state level, health versus service you supply us, for example, as Owen mentioned. But how does Drupal, Drupal and government compete at the lower level where it's a much smaller team, there's smaller budgets, it's a few person marketing department, running a website. Do you think there's still a space for that for Drupal in that market? I mean, I think that that's the current kind of niche market as it were almost for Drupal right now is that you get a lot of traction with the small to medium agencies. You're right, there might be a small web team or digital team or comms team who's looking after whatever the platform is and they might be running only a relatively straightforward couple of sites and they think, yes, we can definitely pick up open source. I think the problem there is that those agencies probably have now spent the last five years largely moving into Drupal. Like I think the number that are now looking at it completely new would be low. Like I think there's people that have moved and there's people that, if there's people still on technologies that are on seven or eight years ago, and there is, they'll eventually potentially look at options and move across. And I can think of a few agencies in that bucket now who might come out to market in the next year or so and finally kind of look at something new. But I think it is a niche space for those agencies to be in and good, there's still plenty of work for the industry in a sense in that space. But what those agencies lack a little bit I guess is the public visibility of the solution overall, right? We're talking about how you can grow Drupal in the community overall. If you're going to a 200 person, 300 person agency and putting in a new Drupal site, like it's nothing, it's not gonna revolutionize the world kind of thing. It's a nice piece of work potentially that you've done but it's not gonna completely change people's minds about switching off to a big Adobe solution or something into a Drupal, I don't think. And maybe that's where we're struggling in the marketing space a little bit about what the platform can do. Okay, one thing I did wanna ask what we've got about a minute to go is just around VicDPC primarily a few years ago moved and tried to consolidate and is consolidating a lot of their websites and Drupal sites into one large, at this point it's a Drupal platform. Do you think that's the way different levels of government should go or do you think that's the future for Drupal in government? Is this consolidation approach? I think it's a nice model and DPC in Victoria, you're right, did it well, Service New South Wales are looking at doing it and partner customer in New South Wales looking at doing it on a holistic way as well. I think it takes a lot of the headaches away I guess for other agencies but then it becomes, if you wanna buy into that Drupal DPC it becomes the same issue around say GovCMS for example, like you build this platform out someone supporting and maintaining it maybe you don't get the flexibility maybe you don't get the true benefits of open source in that it's really quick and agile for you to change what you're doing and implement new modules and things like that. So I think the question there is how is it implemented and is it really suitable for all these other agencies and things to be involved in? That's a good question Greg. Fabulous, alright guys, well the last 30 seconds so I guess Ian mainly thank you for you and thank you for your time and expertise and Owen for jumping on guys, it's been great chat. Thanks Owen. This session there's a wrap up session before the meetup social session and one of those sessions is also the sprint briefing. The end. Fabulous, thank you.