 Good afternoon everybody. My name is Muriel Borce-Tarrant, and I'm with very three artistic directors here who are female women and they're women of color. And I thought I would just like to get these wonderful women together who I have spent, I'll have a long history with, who I admire, and who I have collaborated with and three women who have been here for me and we all been here for each other through dark times and good times and we really were figuring out how to support each other in this world that we navigate as artistic directors and I really felt it was important to do this during women's history month because sometimes we tend to forget the women of color and we tend to forget what we had to go through and a generate what we have to go through now and what a generation before us had to go through right and how they opened door for us sometimes we're standing in the door and there are ones after us that we're opening the door for. I would just like to give a shout out since this is women's history month to the women who are watching this and who are friends of mine. I would like to talk about just give a shout out to my ancestors, my grandmother, Lisa Mayo and Tanya Gonella-Fisher who were my mentors who are the women who raised me and gave me strength and why I'm sitting in these positions. I would like to give a shout out to my mother, to my mama Rose, Muriel Miguel of Spider Woman Theater, Gloria Miguel, I like to give a shout out to my cousin Monique Mujica. I would like to give a big shout out to women who are now just cut off the phone with her working on the front lines at the UN right now, Betty Lyons, Evie Ogura and I would also like to acknowledge another friend of mine who is also on the front lines and Faith Merrick and I would like to give a shout out to my daughter who's the future generation and she's a mother and she's a performer and my granddaughter who is also a female Elanisqua and that is our future generations of my family line. My name is Muriel Borske-Tarrant, I'm Kuna and Rappahannock and I would like these wonderful women to introduce themselves, I was like to say I'm the artistic director of Safe Harbors New York City, introduce themselves, talk and who were your inspirations and those women before you. Thank you Muriel. Hello hello. So good to see you. This is really such a treat and thank you for gathering us and so that we could share space together today so thank you. So I'm Evie Willis-Hawkman and I am currently the artistic director of the Brown Arts Institute which is at Brown University. It's a new institute where swiftly forming all of our mission and goals and we've just opened a new performing arts center on Brown's campus so it's a grand adventure that's happening out there in Providence but I would love to shout out a number of women who have really been critical I think in my upbringing and will also try not to get too emotional and it's almost important to be emotional right because I think that emotional line is sort of what keeps us strong sometimes and I've noticed recently that in thinking about some of my ancestors that emotion has gotten the better of me and I've actually been really glad to be open to it. I think often we feel like we have to shut that down we have to present a certain way right we have to be tearless and strong but I want to shout out to Tony Morrison who was really one of the biggest inspirations for me growing up and she a professor at Princeton was my dad's first cousin and my dad was an only child so Tony was really in all of his cousins of that generation were really his sisters and brothers and so I called her aunt or auntie and you know I've often told this story of she's I used to write these stories as a kid and I was so excited about my stories and then I would give them to her and she would redline them and the only thing left was like an and and but I'm so grateful to her her attention even as a child you know her attention to me knowing that I was the next generation knowing that you know I had she saw promise in me and when others did not and she was really an attentive family member and a mentor so my writing skills improved dramatically my ways of communication my empathy my powers of observation all the things that I feel really strong in now I feel like she was a shepherdess and also would love to shout out to my mother who is an artist and is just one of these gentle angelic souls really taught me to care and to love everyone in whatever way is possible and sometimes it's hard right and and she is one of those amazing artists who has incredible attention to detail and loves colors different colors and different kinds of ways of expressing family expressing the things that tie us together I definitely want to shout out to her and in the spirit of what you said as well Muriel shout out to my daughter Georgia Ann who is seven who is really precocious and you know ready to take over the world and I see so much in her that really gives me hope for the future she's spicy and fierce and will not let anyone including older brother boss her around which I absolutely love and you know I think that's kind of generational the passing down of you know these this knowledge and even though it may traverse lots of different ways and I kind of hold that with me each day and especially during times of challenge so lots of other folks to shout out as well but I think I'll stop thank you and thank you for welcoming us to this conversation I bring into this conversation I'm a name sake child I think my mom knew I was the last one she was going to have out of her body so she brought some of the names in there so I will start with I was born in St. Croix in the Virgin Islands and my maternal grandmother Elise Gibbs who is a great lover of stories and so I think I sometimes take my storytelling from her on the other side Patricia Panazzini I was named after her she had passed by the time I came in but she was a deep lover of fashion and so I think of her sometimes when I dress I see pictures of her when she was young and she always dressed my mother Angela McGregor who was a painter storyteller and in the Caribbean she was an art teacher and so we grew up with Carnival and she would so people say what was your childhood like and I said it smelled like paste and it was full of sequins and so we just she was always sewing costumes for us for Carnival and Caribbean Dance Company speaking of Caribbean Dance Company Curlis who was just I saw her recently back in St. Croix and she's actually a very slight woman but to me she was like an icon she was like kind of etched in stone and she was both so powerful and so fun and so playful and lived in her body in such an amazing way and so I bring Curlis in with me when I and and my sister the reason I was at her I was always the clown who couldn't really do the dances but my sister was a very serious ballerina Paloma McGregor she's an amazing choreographer and dancer she works in Urban Bush Woman and Liz Lerman a lot of amazing women-led dance choreographer think tanks and and so she was the reason why I was there in terms of some of my theatrical journey I'll name Anna Devere Smith who I I saw I will see at a reading next week and she was I remember feeling so inspired and so seen by seeing her work she worked with Liz Diamond who ended up we worked together she ended up being the head of a program at Yale and I will just say there there are actually so many women I could name I could name and Tezake I could name you know and I realized it took me a long time it took me until getting to New York to have men at the heads of the table my my high school head of my program my college head of my program there were always so many women who were the heads of the table that it made it feel automatic to me in a certain kind of way and it was so and I'm so grateful for every single one of those women who paved the way who made me think oh well that's just the way it goes and so I'm often so surprised by the model that is not what they showed me and then the wisdom of some people around who go no no no strategize you've got to step back a bit because I'm used to so many of those women who taught me to boldly step forward and they didn't teach it by telling me they taught it by doing and so and I'll just last I'll name I just left my daughter Jupiter who is always tells everyone I'm the biggest planet and may she may she always feel that and her niece my niece Olamina I think so much what has been passed to me through me and what I want to pass to them and I feel grateful that every sister circle that I've been in my whole life and predating and hopefully I will help shepherd moving forward is really the fuel and the inspiration of my life so grateful to be here with these people honored I think I cannot I must mention Ellen Stewart we're in one of her buildings I still think of this as being her house her home the founder of Ellen La Mama I didn't say who I was I'm Mia it's so funny it's like it naming everyone else I I'm Patricia McGregor and I'm the artistic director of New York Theatre Workshop in this current incarnation thank you for the reminds me sisters always got your back always got your back I'm Mia artistic director of La Mama I'm so I feel so blessed to be able to be here in this community that is La Mama and and La Mama then is a much bigger wider mesh of communities and partners and colleagues and family and this table a lot of that cultural mesh but it goes beyond just sort of the work that we do I believe so Ellen Stewart who basically for me I mean she taught me so many things but I guess the thing that I will mention today is just that we can create our own model because that's what she did right and that we don't have to sort of follow what has happened before not that we shouldn't learn about our history or understand why these specific structures have developed and are the way they are but that we can also pave new ground which is what she did and recently my mother passed so I feel I must mention her name Janice you who Peggy Shaw because it's still raw I have to admit Peggy Shaw split bridges sent me a note probably it was a week and a half or two weeks after she passed and it was beautiful because it kind of went through what a parent would want to say to their child and the last thing that was written on this note was if all I have when I die is my love then give me away and I just thought wow isn't that so empowering to think that that's my responsibility now is somehow in I mean yes you still grieve and you still go through that process of mourning but that this is can be life affirming too in a way and maybe that's what I must sort of now do is to take what she's given me and put it back and somebody else because we've all mentioned our daughters I have to mention my daughter Unaclark who hopefully she feels that love and I it's such a she's 15 now and I was just telling Avery sometimes she walks into the room and I'm like oh my god who is this person I'm imagining you felt that way as she was as as Josie was getting older right it's like wow this is a starting you're starting to feel like they're becoming women and and I'm just so that she's this empathetic sensitive aware self-aware but also really aware of the room I mean I'm I'm very proud of her wonderful and I love that we talked about women and those women and I forgot to mention you know Lois Weaver and Peggy Shaw those were huge influences in my life because they were part of spiderwoman theater right and you know in Lois Weaver it's very funny when you go up in the business you know trying to get a drink of wine when you're 10 year 11 years old and she used to be like okay she was like I like I wish you and then she would just be like okay it's very hard to be bad when you have a few come from in this family who are all performers and everyone's all on guard and everyone you know it's like it's outrageous and then you try to be outrageous and they're like no that's good okay I don't think so I have a cigarette no I don't think so there's a famous story I was on the corner of LaMama this is my icebreaker I was in the corner of LaMama and I was smoking a cigarette I was nine and someone came over and someone came over and said to me I'm telling your mother and I said I don't care I don't care and here came my mother and she can't as I was dragged into the theater so it's very hard so you know all of you know I grew up in theater and I just was like oh and I one more shout out Christina Tarrant is my niece and she is the ED of safe harbors and she was mentored by my husband it's very interesting she has mentored but and so like I just I forgot about her and I just want her to know I live just listening to this but the one thing I wanted to say and this is how's it going you know how's it going you know like you know I don't want it to be formal like this is a moderator I just think we just need to you know talk and what do women you know talk about like us who are constantly on the move we're constantly working who are constantly thinking outside the box thinking about community where's community going what is the future of theater you know we're always in these rooms so let's just kind of like so how's it going how's it going you know let's start with you Trisha I would say the big it lives in extreme and the extreme goods are really good you know we have right now our newest company in residence is Jupiter's performance project ebony Noel golden incredible artist organizer dancer and the fact that we have been able to open up our space and she said we say what do you need and she said space and so like right now to know that I'm not there but we are able to open our doors and give space knowing when there's visionary artists at all entry points when we can be of service when there are productions or convenings or readings or a pot we have a potluck coming up where people can gather and build community and be inspired we had a gala with Lisa Tommy that you were at that was like amazing it was really it was an inspiring so there's great great joy and there's great great challenge as well I think one of the things we bring to the table is is our superpower of empathy and it means that we feel all of the things and we when the challenges are there we we absorb them and I think that we have probably we are multi hyphenates from the day we kick out of the womb and so I would say for me it's it's in those extremes but I think life is always in those extremes and I think this moment gives us an opportunity to be really clear about why we are building structures and resources to be able to help continue the support of artists and communities and conversations that that illuminate and and enliven and challenge us and that we also are I feel right now my feet firmly on the ground and that we are also able to ground in a way that I I think of it as whether you this is right or wrong or however it's a it feels like a very maternal grounding when something is really shaking in a very challenging way it reminds me of when something is happening with one of my children or or what was happening in childbirth where you're literally like let me put my feet into the ground connect with the earth my ancestors purpose and I think often people think of love as a lightweight thing but love is a heavyweight boxer and I feel like women really know what it is to lead with love and so I would say that really helps in in the joyful things because it means like sometimes those boxing gloves are full of confetti and it's so joyful and sometimes it means that you can really like squat down to your center and and bear a thing a moment with both empathy and strength and so that's what I'd say I'd say it's living in the extremes and and thus is the world and so we try to be very centered while we hold the extreme for me I'm I'm questioning a lot you know I question maybe not every single day when I go to work but I I feel like I've been talking a lot about these breakfast coffees that I have with my husband in the morning after you know has gone to school because I need that moment of with somebody who I care deeply about who I trust you know how can I sort of process all these questions that I have and and what does it mean to be doing the work that we're doing and and I still love going to work every single day but I have a lot of questions of what we're doing what what does it mean to be doing what we're doing and how should we be doing what we're doing and how do we expand upon what we're doing because sometimes you just don't feel like you're really having enough impact I don't know if you guys feel that way but that's like part of that that those challenging moments are feeling like I'm not doing enough you know so I would say yeah a lot of questioning for me you totally agree with all of that and I think what's been really interesting for me is to be at the beginning of something and and I know you know you you have started something each of you are kind of inheriting but also reinventing in my particular space we are inventing something new within a really storied institution and very conscious of the moment you know coming out of the pandemic everything that we've all been through as artists as leaders and as being in this cultural space this communal space and and so I've been thinking about what does it mean to be essentially a startup within an Ivy League institution for example and and so we have opened a new building so we have a new structure that needs to be enlivened and peopled and but with a certain spirit that maybe isn't the spirit that wasn't in that particular location before shall we say and and starting a new institute for the arts in this moment on a college campus where our main audience or hundreds and hundreds of young people who are worried about the future excited about the future worried about what they might do in the world excited about what they might do in the world like this is the rollercoaster you talked about the extremes right and and thinking a lot and and we've had some of these conversations about how do you bring artists into that mix right what are the needs that artists have coming out of the pandemic and then you mentioned that to you like how do we meet those needs how do we meet them in a way as you were saying with a new model like what is what is that new model and one of the metaphors that I've been using is you know literally building the plane while flying it and that is so chaotic and scary and so to what you were saying particularly how do you ground while you're literally in the air and you've got like one wing maybe is working there's kind of an engine you know like are you the no food you know exactly like am I the pilot am I the passenger is there anyone on this plane with me and like that chaos and how do we how do you bring calm thing that leadership to that kind of environment within an institution that has been a certain way for 100 like free the founding of the United States of America so it's been it's been challenging to figure out what where is where is the calm pilot with the hat on like I know where we're going this is what we're doing and embracing the immense creativity that's possible when you're starting something like we don't have to do the old model and we were talking about this a little bit like I said to Muriel I'm like I'm allergic to seasons I'm allergic to subscriptions can we not do subscriptions what like are you okay like should we take your temperature you know so like so what does it mean to throw out those models and start with something else and so that's kind of yeah for me it's what does it mean to be at the beginning in this moment not just be at the beginning but in this moment really I have a photo of it it's one of my favorite moments because as you name where are we going I also think who are we going with is as important as where where are we going because that's gonna help us know where we're going and so one of my favorite when you speak about new models one of my favorite moments of this whole I've been here about a year and a half and in my first season little them all there was you know Mia was a huge part of organizing little them all the whole the you know everything about it when it came to New York Muriel helped with it as well exactly yes yes yes I mean that is that incredible and I love that you know of course young woman you know little mom being this young woman and and there was a new model you know there was a there was this moment where we had a curtain time it was this time and that's the way the curtain time was and we found out it was the day that the and I said well we have to change the time you know like and that took some doing and the audience will go with us and there was this whole there was this whole kind of like plan but wish and a prayer a little bit and the idea was that the that an actor because there was a similarity between the play and the and the little malls journey so we said well in a dream world the actor will come and then maybe there'll be a moment that the little mom meets and but it's all a little tentative there are variables that you don't know so the street we never rehearsed it but I looked across the street that night the street was filled in as a person who loves carnival and outside and parade with my dream the street is filled some people came some people happened upon it it's totally accessible to everyone to virtuosity virtuosic and accessible and wonderful and so it was going to be fabulous no matter what and then me and I are running down the street you know I I'm with the actor she's with them all and we know there's this one there's just one little moment where it could happen or not it'll be okay no matter what and there's this photo of we both kind of ushered our people together and there's a photo of the two of us on the sides watching the moment of little mall and this actor like two proud moms like and I thought to myself it's not just the theory but the partnership the people and the people who believe and will put in not just the like time but the kind of sweat equity and the hope and all of that so I just and the heart I mean really the heart into it and so I think it's so important to think where are we going but I also think we're we going with that's going to help define where we can go in a really amazing way I think that's important to I think you know we talk about changing the paradigm and all of that but if we use the or I hate the word organic but I can't think of another one right now but if we think about that what is our indigenous teaching no matter where we're at and like that's how I try to see things you know it's like what you know I can only I can only direct and organize the way I was right and and I think my mother said that to me one time because I was someone was correcting and she said you can only do what you're taught spiritually you know physically you know you can only do what you're taught and and so sometimes like you want to have those teachings and put that in theater and put that on the outside and how does that work you know how does that work especially feminine you know feminism is I don't know maybe this is our next question I'll put out there is you know I know what feminism is to me because I come from matriarchal society right the women with the Kuna women we take you know you're extremely rich you have daughters right because the husbands come and they live you know they help the mother and whatever and so but I come from a very matriarchal society on the Rappahannock side too so a lot of times you know I talked to my mother because there was a lot of pushback about feminism at one point and I said and I had friends who said you know I refused to wear that label because it's not for me and you know when I talked to my mother and I think I talked to Lois we were about this was like well we worked so hard I'm not giving up that time I'm not giving it up because I worked too hard for it and even though if we're gonna change feminism let's you know change the language to it and that's a question I like to like popcorn out there a little bit is like going into these rooms right all of our jobs have most likely have been very male dominated in Western in the Western theater what I see is women are now dominating you know oh but to me I was brought up women always dominate I'm like like I'm very shy I was shocked I mean utterly shocked when I went to the UN and you know and it was this disrespectful and all of this I mean I was a member coming back and think I'm so shocked you know because the way I was brought up in the way because I have a big part of Lamama too is that women had a voice right and women have a big voice you know and if you know my mother she's a huge voice right and my family has a bigger voice as women so do you see that pushback when you come into these rooms that are dominated how do you navigate that how do you navigate that as a woman of color do you see it does it affect you you know it's just you know what do you think every no yes maybe well you know I have to say I didn't know Ellen but Ellen was still very much an incredible like men like mentor from at large a mentor at large for me because what I so admired about Ellen was she was true to herself and she had a the personality that she had she was just true to that and I think for me in these spaces I have to be true to myself I have to be true to who I am how I navigate certain situations certain environments and I you know I grew up in essentially an all-white environment my mother is white you know I grew up very close to Princeton University my father was a professor at Princeton everyone there was essentially white except for you know few of the African-American professors and so for me growing up it's like what you're saying about growing up in a matriarch I just I grew up in a white that there wasn't anything abnormal about that to me I think as I grew older and other people started telling me oh you are not like everyone else in this room other people started shining that red hot light like oh you don't have straight hair or being the tan factor at school like oh I'm gonna oh look I'm almost as tan as Avery and I'd be like wait what does that all actually mean or being out in public with my mother and people making comments about that of course I wasn't her daughter how is that even possible you know we look exactly alike except for in color and so for me I just like it doesn't occur to me in a way that anything strange to be in a room full of men or a room full of women it's just but what I what I want to be true to is myself and how I behave and how I hold space and and I've noticed through my time and even as an adult now it's those moments of yeah it's other people calling something out those microaggressions those moments where you're like oh I you're not treating me as a full human you're not actually acknowledging who I am in this space and what I have been through and who I am and it's those moments that are jolting to me and I often even to this day some like what now like wait a minute did you just actually say that to me okay how am I going to negotiate that so I think we each carry with us you know our histories and our experiences and probably deal with things in different ways but for me I'm I tend to be a listener first and I try to kind of assess the room and listen to how folks are talking to each other and treating each other and and adapt accordingly like I had a conversation recently with someone who was really condescending in a way of like assuming that I didn't know what I was doing that I had you know it was really chilling and and then my decision-making was about how to how to hold my hold my ground in that space and how to bring in without behaving like that person right which is also I feel like a very female way right like this we kind of observe articulate and then kind of reimagine but we we try not speak for myself I try not to behave in the way that I'm not behavior that I'm receiving and that takes a lot of energy you know that takes a lot of processing time and so I think I'm still learning I'm still learning but I that that grounding that sort of like this is who I am this is what I believe in and I'm not willing to transform myself into the behaviors that I see around me as hard as that may be and and that that makes for treacherous territory kind of all the time and and so yeah I mean it's a process and I think still learning how to navigate that and and also remembering what my strengths are you know and acknowledging my strength and finding strengths and other people who maybe can help resolve a certain kind of situation if it's not going to it it's not all on me right all eyes might be on me but it's not all I think that's it's an ongoing I very proudly call myself a feminist and I think there's so many ways to define that I think visually a lot so sometimes I think if masculinity is associated with rugged individualism which it's not exclusive and that can be problematic but that's one way I see a certain line I think of feminism which is in many ways about equal access breaking down barriers you know all of those things I also think that there's a way in which we can identify certain differences not exclusively but if I were to say there's a kind of linear rugged individualism that could be patriarchy it could be that there's a kind of cyclical collective action there's a cyclical sense that I think of as a feminine power that idea that if you want to go fast go by yourself but if you want to go far go with people and so I think it's a it's a very powerful thing that can be mislabeled or misunderstood but I think it's about intentionality power collective building I also think it's very interesting having been from a very young age you know again I had a lot of women leaders in rooms so I just assumed that's what you did I like played sports I was always you know I played the trumpet I always want to be loud you know and part of what's interesting I met recently with James Bundy who was the head of the drama program at Yale and he said and we used to have we used to really wrestle about things I mean really really wrestle about things and we met recently he said from this sheer force of your will you will get things done and in this particular position coming in it is the place where I am I'm used to being the underdog in a certain kind of way and so now part of I think the wrestling with the idea of what this feminine power is or you know feminism is I've been used to doing something from like the sheer force of my will and now people go whoa whoa whoa you have all this positional power which is not always structural power but it is positional power you have all this positional power and now we want you to shrink when you were kind of coming up it was a good thing that you had all this and now there's an there's much more pushback or maybe my response to the pushback is very different it was much more overt before or I would say okay this is this is like this is the wrestling match and now it's much more covert but it's very there that sense of now you're in this place that there are certain ways in which women in this position in this perceived at the top at the head of the table at whatever that place is there I do feel this sense of a desire to shrink that into a more manageable place and so as a listener spend some time really thinking and considering and very recently I still want to be thoughtful I still want to be considerate I still want to be collective but I've decided it will be too much of a cost if I don't come out as myself as well and so that's a roundabout way of getting at that but I do think and I think about it for my daughter you know I think about my ability to metabolize shape shift figure out what is going to be most useful but at the end of the day you have to figure out your most authentic self even in a position that has a lot of either real or perceived position and that's different from men than women I will come out in a very firm way and sometimes that will you're yelling like no I'm not yelling I'm just clear whereas with a male it will be you know that's that's that's clarity that's power whereas with a woman it will often be perceived as being you know it's an interesting interesting journey I guess I'm pretty lucky the landscape that I came into was a woman who was in power and made sure that you knew it you know and and she didn't apologize for it she didn't you know as you were saying every you know she was her authentic self and and so I feel really like I'm in not to say that there are not other places like Lamama all over and but I do feel that I am in a very unique place that is Lamama where we're mostly women in that office you know and so that that that uplifting of others you know or that feeling that you know how do I make sure that everyone feels invested or or feels as though they are part of something and that they're in terms of this I you know I'm always talking about I don't think of it as somebody in charge or somebody who has the power but that we all have different responsibilities right and that some responsibilities are shared some responsibilities are a little bit more overarching some responsibilities are really sort of very specific in certain areas but that we all have this sort of shared responsibility of making sure that Lamama is okay and that we stay true to our mission of being service of service to our this and our broader community so I I I'm kind of in a really special place in that of of not always being in rooms with a lot of male white male dominance you know and but one instance where it kind of hit me in this I was caught off guard to be totally honest but I tried to stay true and authentic to myself but it was Lamama had just gotten our Tony award which was kind of you know it was shocking you know I when I got that call I was I I was like thank you thank you this is so wonderful and then I got off the phone and talked to our our our dear press agent Sam Rudy and I said what award did we just get I had no idea that this award even existed to be honest which was amazing and and how fortunate we were you know I say it was a testament to the artistic community that is Lamama yeah it was it was a wonderful moment but we were in is it don't don't tell mama yes is that the the bar the the club and it was all these white male critics in the room because that that's who you know that's that's behind sort of the Tony awards still probably to a certain extent and it was a question and answer that I had with Jonathan Mandel who is somebody that I also called dear and a critic white male um but um one of the questions that was asked um was oh as you try to sort of create um a platform for that multiplicity of voices and and and focusing on diversity um do you feel like you're compromising quality and I took that in and I was like the only thing I could say in that moment was no um and deep tron actually uh one full writer you know um wrote about it in American theater that moment because I think all of us of color maybe um of not of you know of the male gender I think we were kind of all in a state of shock like how could this question actually have come up in this person's mind um and I think that's a time when I realized okay wait maybe there is something else that is not you know that that I have to kind of consider beyond this bubble that is La Mama you know or this um world that is La Mama sometimes it feels like a bubble but um because yeah we just were constantly it's festival time all the time at La Mama so it's it's sometimes hard to kind of come up for air and not to see my neighbor and not to see my dear colleagues um and sisters but um so I don't know I think that idea of of of really trying to be your authentic self is crucial right I I I think that's probably the most important thing and I learned that recently too it has happened so funny because we're all on the same page this is I've served on all these boards and you know with theater boards and advisory boards and everything you know sometimes you say to yourself why am I doing this but like this is I'm getting bashed in the head over here or you know I I don't know what it means with other issues but with native issues you know you turn around and you say okay that's great what you just did but there's not mention of no there's no native people on this you know I don't understand how that happened and then they get really quiet well no one applied I said did you reach out you know so and I feel that about the authentic self you know the same thing with EDI I find that you know um diversity uh equal equity diversity inclusion I was on one of those committees and the thing was to me it was like this we have to start putting into the conversation what native people are going through right and if you ignore that then what is EDI right and I find myself in the same place like should I say something should I not say something you know am I gonna hurt people's feelings and it's actually my daughter who's you know another and we'll go into this question too is the other generation that's coming up after us and the gender I I raised a very mouthy daughter I don't know how I did that where she came from times you know it's like oh my god can't you just be a little diplomatic no they've been taking advantage of this and we're a woman in the room we're in the color of the room we're the last person we have to talk about marginalized issues now and it's like okay so you say to yourself okay I say but what if you lose funding because of that it doesn't matter and so like it's that that that that fine line because we come from a generation where we have to look at the other side right but you know the other thing is you know you have someone like my mother from um spider woman and she's fought with everybody and said if you don't do this this is just plain a simple racism and you know and Ellen Stewart was her mentor so you know so when you know and I do agree that you know we come from a me and Mia come from this certain way of being um is I don't know if coddled but we this was all very normal to talk about to for women to be fierce and everything with the work and to be but when you leave that world you realize oh this is what everyone's talking about right so I would just like to put the question out there and like we have another fit we have 15 minutes but I would just like to like how do we you know the next generation what do we see with the next generation anybody of you know with art where are we going how are we going about it you know what are we excited about with this next generation of theater makers I mean I will in some ways uh bridge a few things a to that comment of the person who asked you know is there is there a deterioration in quality I often think I love science and I love scientists and I I feel like we are often trying to understand the world or our field and it can feel sometimes academic or and I say what what is the phenomenon in nature right and so in nature I love robust ecosystems we're not trying to have all just pine trees or rivers or you know um I don't know ladybugs aphids and ladybugs they're all it's all important it's all interconnected and so what I keep thinking about is how and the soil is symbolic because the soil is the thing that has been a certain thing a tree has grown grass has grown and then it has become the soil and the soil is there to nourish what is next so when I think of virtuosity or quality um or even when I think of edi and I to me it's about how do we get the the the kind of broad range of virtuosistic fantastic people together so that there's not redundancy so that we have this robust ecosystem and then how can I in my own generational place somebody has been a pine tree before me somebody has passed a baton to me how can I occupy my space in the best kind of way and then how can I prepare for being that part of the soil to nurture what's coming up next so I whenever I have a pit a wall I just look at nature and say when when how does nature do it how does nature uninterrupted by our forces create the most robust biodiversity and support things and there are going to be times you know there's seasons and there's cycles and how how do you identify with strength and humility where you are in the season and cycle of your ecosystem and um I don't have a final point I will just say that when I hit the wall I go into nature and think to myself what can I learn from this um in the environment I'm in right now I'm really happy you used that because I used that too I think it's so important and I I think when you're also trying to communicate to um as I was mentioning being at the beginning of things when you can lay out an ecosystem and you know what we're doing at brown is multidisciplinary so it's theater it's visual art it's music um it's film it's you know it's multidisciplinary um and yet many are so siloed within those disciplines and so trying to kind of create an ecosystem um we think a lot about an ecosystem of work as well right like the the ecosystem includes the stage managers and the directors and the rigors and the the folks who are preparators right who are putting up those visual art pieces um the the person who's who's helping to tune the orchestra you know that there's and that's where I get so much excitement because I think that that ecosystem is so rich and deep um and the more that young people understand and recognize that ecosystem and that it's not one um like weather moment right a weather event it's not like this crazy storm and we're just in this crazy storm all the time and will we ever get out of this crazy storm the the idea that there's an ebb and a flow to that ecosystem that everyone has their their parts and their participation um that that sort of metaphor has helped me a lot in talking to young people about their futures and I think as we all may remember from applying to college and being in college terrifying it's such a terrifying time and such an exciting so this beginning to such an exciting time at the same time and the combination of those two things can be really volatile right and so I think that's why the arts are such a wonderful place to be when you're young because that in you talking about you know the generation of our children um the arts open up so many just possibilities um and I mean I'm a theater kid too and I thank God really truly that I learned every possible thing that I could in the theater because I feel really well equipped now in my current job and the job that I've had um and so that ecosystem of work the ecosystem of making and creating the ecosystem of um the health of our society right this idea that the arts are essential right that we need that we need creativity we need the arts to just give us these different lenses into our world different ways of looking at things so I um appreciate so much that that's you know a really strong metaphor for you as well because it's kind of infinite too which is lovely right like you can you can iterate that out in many many different directions um yes I love this idea of nature and um my dad was um he's been talking a lot about sort of what are our godlike ingredients and how we look to nature to discover those godlike ingredients and his whole thing these days is that women actually um embody the human godlike ingredient which is to give life you know and um that has been so much a part of sort of how he's been thinking about what it means to be human as we're you know dealing with a lot more of these things and you know augmented reality artificial intelligence all of that and what these things are giving to us in terms of as a society how do we then really look deeper into what is the essence of what it means to be human but also what is that nature um and in terms of like this whole generational conversation that excites me in this moment um as I'm thinking about the future of art making or or uh the practice of theater um is this idea of um people wanting to participate in the act of that gathered sort of experience whether we call it ritual whether we call it performance you know or theater um that is something that I feel the younger generations want in in terms of that artistic experience you know I use Yuna actually a lot in in thinking about the future of performance but also the future of art and and and the making of art you know when she saw TV for the first time before the age of two she was trying to swipe it right I mean I'm sure you guys also and you're going to see it in your granddaughter too in terms of these digital natives right it's like how do I not just receive something passively but how can I be engage and involve you know and maybe that's something that the younger generations as they're trying to think about transformation and change and the things that aren't working you know and wanting to sort of really be engaged in that way and somehow proactive and have agency that that is also I think we we're seeing it in the making of art and in the making of theater and um I was we're working on this um piece uh with the great jones repertory company lamamas repertory company medea and um you know it's going to be sort of in all of the different floors of the 74 building and um there's going to be an online audience that is going to interact with interact with the performance um it's um looking at medea through the lens of her being a refugee and and sort of that that figure sort of global refugee moment that crisis moment that we're in and um and I was we're trying to figure out what do we call this thing and I was I went back and I was looking at this idea of happening right and this was this predate lamama you know this was in the 50s and alternative phases and things were changing and and the action the event changed because of how the group gathered and um and they were talking about the the folks who came as um not coming with the from the perspective of objective criticism but of subjective support and I was like oh my god that's what I'm seeing and actually also as a as a artistic director in terms of the the kinds of audiences that I want to bring into our spaces is people who are who are looking at the work like I'm looking at the work where I'm so heavily invested in this artist in this person in this story in the creative process you know and so how do we start feeling like the gathered group also um is not just sitting back and saying okay I gave you money this transactional thing so show me what you got you know like going back to sort of if we're talking about like hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of years of making in terms of these structures I think this the theater structure that we've now built is because of money getting involved patriarchy getting whatever all those things that we've been talking about um and that how do we go back to that place where we're all going to be a part of making this thing happen you know um and talking about who are we going on that journey with you know and that to me is even happening within the the performances that I'm starting to see being created by by the generations of now that you know the people who are creating now and of course you know I'm imagining yes the younger generations are going to want to sort of have that kind of artistic experience and engagement I know we kind of we kind of answered this question already and what what's so we should end with what's exciting what are you excited about as an artistic director right right now you kind of answered that but you know I'll kind of say what I'm excited about I too feel that the paradigm is shifting and um like right now I again and and working on a play that is outdoors that all three of you are involved in your pace I'm gonna be there and oh my god I can it's an epic piece I I'm gonna be dead after this but but the whole idea was from behind that because after my husband died was being in shutdown and really trying to figure out like where is theater going because after a major death you say god like am I even gonna do this anymore and so I was trying to figure out like what was the last piece we talked about in the last piece we talked about as a couple was this thing called Feast of Ghost because I just wanted to do a sitcom comedy and he was like Muriel no one's gonna get it you've got to like do something because we were somewhere he was like some hippies ain't gonna get that he was like you've got to do something like you have to explain why do we feed the dead why do who these who's land are we on with the stories and I and I really and that creation was really from also theaters shifted right are the seasons going to change right and literally if you you know I go back to my native teaching seasons are going to change the literal seasons we see that we see we see their ecosystem around us is changing a great deal right and we've been warning about there about it but the reality is the world is changing the world that we're looking at dramatic change in weather dramatic change in food sovereignty dramatic change in health we're looking at that now and a lot and I believe that it should be told in theater and if us as theater makers that's what I'm so excited we go with that shift right they will be outdoor theater right if people cannot come together inside right because of disease because whatever is the next thing that's going to hit us right the next wave or whatever that's going to be and will the seasons change and that was a big big big thought and so that's what I'm excited about I'm excited about looking because I see a lot of young people saying I want to change how this looks instead of this western framework right and I always say okay show me something you know let's do something different and exciting so that's what I'm excited about I'm excited about working with the three of you women you know and I've already worked you know and and and what I find exciting too is that us understanding each other at not only as women but women of color too to understand that there is a commonality between all four of us right you know all four of us we all come from distinct different backgrounds but we've all come from indigenous background and we have teaching so that's I'm excited to bring those teachings into into even marketing right I mean we you know New York Times I'm not allowed to say this while I say it New York Times is always saying something bad about people of colors work how do we change that how do we call out that without someone saying well you're never going to work again if you say anything you know what I mean how do we change that shift that isn't her when we put our life we feel as as artists makers we're putting our life on the line we we die a little bit when we're on stage right I I believe this is how I speak for me you know and then when someone talks it's like calling your child ugly you know what I mean and and you're supposed to take that but there needs to be pushback if you're not understanding if you're not taking a history lesson you know and the cultural exhaustion that that goes with that and I think we're changing the way of thinking and yes it's overwhelming thank thank glass this has been the best conversation I've had in two weeks and three weeks ago I told her I was quitting theater she doesn't listen to me that I'm done I'm not doing this anymore this is not that she was like oh yeah okay she didn't even react that's what she would say oh Muriel did it now she was like yeah okay maybe okay and I changed my mind the following week it's like one time I had a job and I said I really gotta quit this job and she says well just quit the job and I said you know what I'm gonna do I'm gonna tell her I said I'm gonna tell them I had a nervous breakdown because you can't say that and I said I went crazy and she was like these are straights these ain't theater people you can't tell normal people you're having a nervous breakdown so anyway that's a little bit of that and like what are you excited about for this coming you know whatever it is whatever it is you know let's end it on a high note I'm excited by the connection that we we we have here you know I'm excited about Feast of Ghosts and that all of us are involved and beyond that this grassroots global arts movement which I feel is this idea of Feast of Ghosts having all of these different people and partners involved um and how do we start creating more impact around the work of the artists because I I don't know how you guys feel but sometimes I'm you know as I probably mentioned earlier I'm just running all the time and not being able to really make the connections to have more impact around one artist I mean it's not just one artist but one company's work right and and I think by creating this network this networking system or or or broader sort of mesh that I believe we can make together that excites me in terms of how arts can play a bigger role or a vital role in the way that we're going to move forward um I'll say ditto to just the excitement of this more of this more of this and out of the more of this um I think often about the role of art in in culture right and one of the things that was exciting from this last year that I'm really excited about infusing in this next season even more at the workshop is when Hansel Jung did marry me um which we chose because I think Hansel's a brilliant writer and I also really loved the opportunity to do wrap around engagement with a lot of community partners in what I call like the the campus the 10 blocks around us where when we've done a lot of statistical research we actually have a lot more people that come from 40 50 blocks than the 10 blocks around us how do we engage in a hyper local way these these I used to bartend up and down avenue a so these are like the streets of my youth very different time in my life how do we engage more in the right where we are that makes me really excited so with marry me we had not a lot of non-transactional opportunities to come together for community so we had um you know drag brunch or karaoke at Henry at Hudson or all of these opportunities to to build and gather community and some of those people never saw the show and some of the people came to see the show and never knew about Henry at Hudson and went to Henry at the Hudson because of that and so the idea that this this process of making theater which I do find to be sacred and illuminating but it also is a beacon that can bring people together we have so much social isolation that we can have a place of belonging and sometimes that belonging is about reviving the spirit sometimes that belonging is having some very difficult conversations that we are not able to have in a lot of spaces and often are are that that being in person together can hold conversations and hold the ability especially in response to a piece of art that can actually be transformative and actually kind of hold opposition in a certain kind of way so I'm just I'm excited for the art itself but I'm excited that the art is the beacon and a tool for a larger sense of belonging convening conversations and and collective progress I love that um well ditto ditto what what's a triple triple ditto ditto ditto ditto lots of ditto uh no I appreciate that so much I I think for me I'm really excited also literally about the work ahead um but I am excited about finding some stability in a new model like this but I can't wait for this stability I'm really excited about that and I think it goes back to a lot of things that we shared already it's about not being transactional kind of what you're saying um what does it look like to create an ecosystem that is not based on transaction and and I think that's hard I think that's actually a really difficult challenge but I think it brings you know as you've said to me so many times bringing the indigenous knowledge around collective thinking collective decision making honoring of people's ideas and creativity and and creating a circle right like a you know creating a circle I feel like we often are at these rectangular tables right and I'm sure you probably were we kind of made a we have a semi-circle going here we have a horseshoe we have a horseshoe but you know what I'm saying like there's something about this the circle and to create art in a circle instead of like you are paying the like you were saying earlier right like I gave you my money now what are you giving me like trying to upend that which we'll take a little time I'm sure but yes that is the key yes yeah yeah no no I mean yes um because we need that support because we're not relying on the ticket sales or we're not you know how do we change the model of theater and art consumption but also the sharing of art I'm going to take some brave folks who will step up and say I want to support that so that you can go for us and really put artists at the center put audiences at the center put makers at the center humanity at the center right um so I'm excited about that I think it's possible I think it's going to be hard but I think it's possible um and I think for me in the in the on a on a campus that students are the main you know the main audience what does it mean to entice them you know into a theater into a gallery into a creative space to learn to learn um and muriel's done this so beautifully at brown like students are learning from Muriel directly while she's at work making work and imparting that knowledge um and so what are the structures that we need that are not transactional that that um sort of shepherd the next generation of art lovers and art makers and our participants so that when they all come to New York that's where they all want to come when they come to New York they're experiencing your it with a different um with a different energy and a different purpose yes and and acceptance and excitement about the work that's happening here which is so beautiful and and gorgeous um so yeah I'm excited maybe maybe this new model could really make a difference and how how we um how we get there it ain't easy it ain't easy quadruple diddow it ain't easy let me tell you but if it was easy everyone would do it I mean that's the truth I mean you know we are out there you know in the front lines and people don't think of us as frontline people and a lot of times we are we are because we're in the meetings we're in the rooms we're making work we're encouraging artists and we're understanding you know I mean the three of you are even doing it more because we're we're we're a theater company trying to survive in this economic you know this economic times right but when you have to and you're not relying on the monies you can have you know what I mean to really say something and I'm a true believer of that theater is a sacred place and that's how I was brought up and I was really brought up that you know whatever that is theater is a sacred place it's a church to me it's where I meditate it's where I think of my where I create and I really and I was taught that very young but this is a sacred place this is almost to me it's a religious experience you know oh people keep on calling me I don't know who's calling me but anyway it's a religious experience I don't know I I got I got thrown off okay we all have to go right because you have to be a 630 you have to get a train you have to do what you do and I need to go home and go sleep and this was wonderful I really you're my one of the three you know this was powerful and I really want to do this for almost two years and now we did it and let's all do a high note thank you very much thank you for joining us good evening bye