 Hey, what's up guys, Drew here, thatanxietyguide.com. Back again with Monique Coven all the way from Canada. This is the second one in a row, you and me. I know, I just love talking with you. It's so much fun. Yeah, it is. So just before we went and started recording, we'd just start, no, no, no, no, no. Like wait a minute, we need to actually record this. Yeah, because we just get rolling. So today, we are gonna talk about the topic of empowerment, learned helplessness, how that's not really a thing, the power of memory and how it impacts all that stuff. And those feelings of feeling that you're not competent or that you can't do this. Yeah. And why those feelings are not right. And like you have more juice going on than you think you do. Yes. Yeah. So go ahead, run with that. You had some really good insights that I'm digging. Well, yeah, because I lived most of my life really believing that I was completely powerless, that I was stuck, that somebody would have to help me. And I didn't realize kind of like all the stuff that was going on in the background, which was really my memory. Because the repetitive nature of trauma, I came from a really traumatic background where I always was in panic. I was in the fight and flight and I was in the adrenaline going and I need to get out, but there's nowhere to go. And so that memory, which happened over and over and over again, it becomes conditioned. And we start to believe that that's who we are. And it reminded me of when you, if you're a child or an adult and you touch the stove and you burn your finger. Did that. Mm-hmm. I was kidding. I can promise you that you're going to remember the next time you go next to a burner, not to go too close. I could tell you that to this day, that memory happens at the stove, to this day. Okay, you see. So that's exactly what I'm talking about. What happens when we have panic, because we've had an experience that was so burnt the stove and we don't want it to happen again. And so we start getting into our head about, oh my gosh, I'm going to be stuck. I'm going to be hurt. No one's going to help. It's going to be. And the state, the feeling of panic is so overwhelming. The adrenaline, you know, we get so frightened by it that we don't want it to happen again. And we conclude that we're powerless, that we're stuck, that we've got nothing going for us. I mean, I certainly believe that, that I would need somebody to help me should XYZ happen because I would be like this. Yeah. And I think a lot of people could relate to that. I think they probably could. Yes, because you feel like you don't have, and I think people hear the things that I talk about and you and I talk about and they understand it, but they feel like, well, you could do that. I could never do that. And I think it's because of that repetitive nature of, the memory of what happened, which I think is just normal. So you have a bad experience and then you learn to not want to repeat that. That's normal. That's what people do. Total normal. Yeah. I think, but what winds up happening is the repetitive nature of that memory, the narrative we attached to it. So yes, when I was probably six, I put my finger on my grandma had an electric stove. So it was glowing red. And I remember thinking, I was maybe younger than six, I don't know, but I remember just thinking, oh, I touched it just for a second. Of course I went up with a huge blister on my finger and everything, but okay, I touched it, I burned my finger, but there was no other narrative built around that. Like I almost died. I didn't know what to do. I was gonna screw everything. Yes. So the problem happens when we build the extra narrative. Totally. Around these bad events. Totally. And they are bad events. But then we add all this extra narrative and the story ends horrifically in our mind as opposed to the story just being factual and objective. Totally. Is that? Oh, that's a hundred percent right. It's that weird. Even when you're dealing with that, those maybe repeated trauma in the past and trying to deal with those things, same situation. Oh, absolutely. I mean, I can give you the example of, I used to have a fear, a big fear of driving far and getting lost. And when I kind of tried to break it down, what was it? And I said in my head, well, I'm gonna freeze when I get lost. I'll be so overwhelmed and nobody's gonna help me. Well, that's because of the story that happened to me where I froze and nobody helped me. So now I kind of took it into driving, made a story that, well, if I get lost, no one's gonna help me because that happened when I was a child. But now I was a grown adult. I had a mouth. I had a mind. I had legs. I had a credit card if I need to pay for whatever, a taxi if my car breaks down. But all that didn't matter, out the window, exactly. Yeah, out the window. What I remembered was the childhood of being stuck and I translated it to that could happen. So it was the narrative. Yeah, it is the narrative. And I think, and when we repeat it again and again, it gets stronger and stronger, more ingrained at least. And it's so interesting when we have these conversations, you might be dealing with slightly different issues than I am in terms of digging into the past and dealing with getting past these traumatic things that may have happened, but the mechanism is so similar. So maybe that memory came from something that happened in your childhood, but the same exact mechanism is happening to a person who remembers no trauma and just starts having panic attacks for no reason, same mechanism, different reason. It's a cool mechanism, exactly. It's crazy, right. It's just working. Yeah, exactly. And I love the way you said it before. It's normal. We all work the same way. And we are all human. You're not alone. And I think that as we start to understand, because even as we're talking, I'm sure people are getting insights and going, oh yeah, that's true. I'm acting the way that I did. And yeah, I do have legs now that can... Exactly. What's that about? Or the ability to step back from those episodes and change the way we remember it. And I always try and tell people you have to change the way you tell the story. So you have to stop telling the story about how awful it was and how this almost happened, that almost happened, you narrowly escaped disaster. It didn't happen. The story, at least in the nuts and bolts approach that I'm taking is you had a panic attack. You were really afraid. You were really uncomfortable. And then it ended. And you were okay. It always ends with, and you are okay. And I don't know if you would tell people the same thing. You may be reliving these things that happened to you long in the past, but right now you are okay. I have news for you. I tell them that, but I also tell them that they were okay even then because we're always okay. Yes, we are always okay. We're always okay. What's happening is we're okay. We're okay. But what happens is that, when the fear goes off, the alarm goes off, which is 100% normal because we think of your full thought. It's normal. We're designed to escape danger. So it's trying to keep us safe. But yeah, we're always okay. And the only thing that's going on is this, but underneath this, when this starts to quiet down, there it is. You realize. It's okay. So yeah, I do. With my clients, I do spend time. We look at, this is what you and I started to talk about before, times even in their childhood, let's say those who've had trauma. When they remember, as I did, I remember the over and over and over again where I could not get out. I mean, I couldn't get out. And I wanted to get out. Couldn't get out of the situation? That's the memory, I'm not gonna be okay. Yeah, I was a child. I couldn't leave my house when these horrible things were going on. And I'd go into the fight and flight and I'd be like ready to, I wanted to go through the walls, but I couldn't. But there was still this part of me that I didn't recognize, which was telling me, informing me on what to do. So it would tell me sometimes, you know what, stay in your room right now or go to your girlfriend's house. Go for a walk. Don't, you know, and all of these things that I never even looked at, that was my wisdom or my empowerment that was speaking, that was encouraging me, that was informing me on what to do. I never looked at that. I thought I'm a child, I'm stuck, I'm not safe. But I didn't see that there was also this other part, this wisdom that was informing me. It was also the part that was looking at what was going on and going, oh my gosh, this is insanity. And even understanding that some of the behavior that was going on by the adults, like what is that? You know, that's the resilience that's been with us since we're children and it's with us now. But often we don't hear it because we're so caught up in, oh my gosh, and this might happen and that might happen. But when it starts to quiet down, sometimes that we can hear that voice of wisdom. We were talking about that on the highway. Yes. You know how we were saying if someone gets panicked, there's that voice that says, why don't you pull over to the side? Right, right, exactly. And so that's true. So whether you're trying to recover from the memory of maybe you've learned some bad habits because of living those past events or even if you've had no trauma that you can remember and you're just having these panic attacks and you're becoming agoraphobic, the same principles apply there too because even in your worst panic attack, you had some direction. And I think the point that I made when we were chatting before we started recording was you are not being pushed by some irresistible, uncontrollable, external thing that you cannot control. Like there is external things happening, especially if you've been in a bad situation. That's true. But you still had some measure of even if it was just having the presence of mind to get in a ball and protect yourself. Yes, yes, true. Yeah, you did that. So the same thing goes true with, you know, you're driving 10, 15 miles away from home and you haven't done that in a while and you have a huge panic attack. Every panic attack you've ever had, you have responded to. Now, maybe it wasn't the most constructive response and we talked about changing it into a more constructive response, but you did respond. You took some action. Maybe it wasn't the right or the best action, but you took action. You had the ability to do it. Yeah, and that's what we want to talk about. You know, I, even though as a child, I went into panic. I didn't have a name for it. I didn't know what it was, but I do know as an adult, I had one panic attack when I first got married, one. Okay, yeah. And you just reminded me as you were talking because we were a whole, I had just got married with a whole bunch of friends and we got tickets to a baseball game and it was on the highest. Yeah, those bleed seats. So as I'm walking, all of a sudden I start hyperventilating out of the blue, you know, sweating and I'm crying, but guess what's happening? My feet are going down the stairs. Right. And I'm like, I'm not even my mind somewhere else but my feet are going down. Well, what is that? Again, that's the wisdom that's informing us to go down. You'll feel better. You'll feel much better when you, when you go down, you know, to a lower seat. Yeah. Yeah. And I think it's the same mechanism that would protect you from, you know, heaven forbid, let's say you're way up the top of that stadium and the lightning storm shows up. Well, that's real danger. You would walk down into the interior part of the stadium and go to safety. That's actual danger that requires a response. It's the same exact mechanism, except in cases that we're talking about, it might get triggered inappropriately or the wrong time, but it's, there's still a measure of power and control in that. Yeah. And I like that because, because people with anxiety or PTSD related anxiety believe that they are stuck. Like I said, I thought I was, I thought I would be frozen like a mannequin and couldn't move. But what we're talking about here is that's just not true. You might think that could happen. Right. No, you will have the ability to move, to do something to, like you said, get out of the situation. And often I think it's not even, they feel stuck or powerless or helpless or like it's completely out of their control. But I think some of that comes from, they may truly have those feelings about themselves that they're just not capable or competent. But I think it also is because they don't like, I don't like the situation right now. And if I cannot change it into something immediately that I like or I want, then this is failure. So I can't do it. And I think they start to lose that ability to say, well, no, this is an incremental change that we have to start making here. So what's the word I'm trying to look into here? So learning the narrative that they tell themselves and the memories that they build which all have negative outcomes and they start to pile up and they turn into these patterns of avoidance and avoiding and fleeing and hiding and those sort of things that perpetuate the disorder. I think they often feel like if I can't do something right this minute, there's one particular person in my group right now that I'm thinking of and I certainly wouldn't say their name but I could see it. Like I don't like feeling this way. And so I just did what you told me to do but I still feel this way. So I can't do this. You have to tell me how to do it. Please tell me how, please tell me how. Well, you already know how. So even what you're doing now is something. You're still doing something. Yeah, and I think first that realization that says, oh, wait, I can do something. Maybe I've just been pointed in the wrong direction but I have the ability if I just turn in this direction, I can move. Yeah, that makes sense. And also, I don't know who that person is but understanding to that those sensations as uncomfortable as they are, they're temporary, they're gonna move through you. If you don't resist them, they're gonna move through you. It's that same sensation. We know some people love skydiving or going on a roller coaster, same adrenaline. It's just that we've labeled that's fun. That same feeling we're like, this I don't like. Yes, it's so interesting because I had a conversation with Leslie Gustafson. She's a marriage counselor and a sex therapist. And we talked about how, I mean like when you're being intimate with your partner, the same sensations, the same bodily sensations, same all of these things as sometimes in a panic attack. Now, why is it good then bad other times? So same situation. That's interesting, I never thought of that. Yeah, it's actually a topic that comes up sometimes in this area, like, oh, I'm afraid to do that because it feels like a panic attack. Yes, it does. But then otherwise, other times you're having a good time. Like, why can you feel that way and like it or feel that way and hate it? Yeah, it's interesting. It's like the labels that we put on it. A little bit. And I wish, you know what? If I knew the answer to this, I wouldn't have to do a podcast. Everybody would just not have this problem. But why is it that some people go through terrible traumatic events in their past and never develop that chronic PTSD over it? Some people have a panic attack once every six months and never develop the disorder. The difference seems to be the narrative that they built around it. Some people will likely say this was an event, it's over, I'm done with it. And they don't worry about the next one, they don't overanalyze it, they don't build a story around it. I wish I knew why some people do and some people don't. I wish I knew. I'm very fortunate that I have one of my best friends. She, we traveled together, she's been my best friend for like 30 years. So seeing her in all kinds of experiences and she sees the glass always full. Like she's just positive, period, no matter what happens. And I've asked her stuff and, you know, and I'll give you a good example, this makes me laugh. I don't know, we were in Hawaii, we were in Maui and got a call, her daughter was just gave birth, was up all night with trouble with feeding the infant. And so she's talking to her, she gets off the phone and then she goes, okay, what are we gonna do now? And I looked at her and I said, well, aren't you gonna worry about it now? Like, aren't you gonna, we gotta keep thinking about it. That's the mentality of, you know, someone, you know, she's like, you deal with what comes up and then that's it. And it's not that she doesn't get thoughts or, you know, even a fearful thought, it's that she doesn't engage and take it seriously. Where we're like, and then we start thinking and thinking and trying to figure it out and creating a narrative around it. And what I find even more fascinating, I'll just use myself as an example, is I've never been, I've always been like your friend, but I had a period of my life where I wound up in the other side where I did do that thing where I reacted, you know, and I built a narrative and I started avoiding and running and hiding and I got into a bad place. So how could I have started one way, went through a period in another way and then completely left that behind again? And same situation. So if I had a swing and panic attack right now, it'll be over in 10 minutes and I couldn't be less interested. How does that happen? I wish I knew it. I don't know, but I'll ask you a question. So you tell us in the audience, why now if it happens, a panic attack, you couldn't give two hoots? Why? I'm not interested in the least. Why? Well, honestly, because I spent the time teaching myself that that is nothing to be afraid of. So just letting it come and kill me and when it doesn't, after the couple of times that it doesn't kill you, then it's like, oh, this is ridiculous then. Like you find that the fear is real, but the reason is not and like some, I don't know, then the light bulb goes on and says, oh, I don't have to be afraid of that anymore. I don't like it. I don't want to have a panic attack right now. But if I did, it'd just be like stubbing my toe or whatever, but it's weird. And so the feelings of competency that come along with that too. And I think what I try and tell people all the time is the first couple of times you do that, then I'm sure that your clients go through the same thing. The first couple of times that they really confront all that stuff and just let it be there without engaging in all their safety and like masking and running and hiding behaviors, whether it's emotional or physical, you get that superhero rush of like, I am bulletproof here. Yes, it's like, that's it. This war is over. I should have mop up now. So it's very exciting. Yeah, yeah, it's exciting. But you know, I always say this, that anxiety is not something that you're ever gonna get rid of. I'm not talking about the chronic thing. I'm talking because it's like any other feeling. So you can still get caught up in fearful thinking, but just knowing that that's what it is. And then you can kind of let it go and it moves through. Yeah, and I think again, to just bring it back to that beginning thing of that learned helplessness is not true is actually empowerment. There's empowerment in every part of your experience and like control and power in every part of the experience, even the darkest ones that you're still empowered. And I think that gives you the ability to when you go through these things, I don't know if you find that your clients come out and I say this, some people look at me like I'm crazy, like there's gold forged in these fires that you do not know until you're done. And maybe we're never done. You can make that philosophical argument. It's a journey that keeps going. But the skills that you learn and the competency that you build in confronting these things and getting past them and dealing constructively with whether it's your anxiety disorder or PTSD. I mean, you come out on the other side with just at such an elevated level. It is. It's it's- Hopefully you're seeing that with your people, you know? I am, I am. And I use myself too as an example because like I, as I said before, I used to have a fear of getting lost. And, you know, years and years ago, I maybe 20 years ago, I was so afraid that I missed my best friend's funeral because I was no one would come with me. And now, you know, after doing it a few times and, you know, becoming more competent, you know, I drove like 10 hours away to attend a, you know, conference. And now I'm going, you know, in August to Vermont, which is a four and a half hour drive away to spend a few days. I would have never imagined that I could do such a thing. And now that's just like a Thursday, right? That's nothing. Exactly. But what I'm trying to tell the audience is that it's totally possible. You might think right now that it's not, but it is. Yeah, that's true. It's totally possible. That's true. And even to use your example to like one more to drive this home, even, and that's obviously a bad memory. You missed your friend's funeral, but even the choice to not go to that funeral had some power in it. Like you thought there was some danger. You may have been incorrect, but you consciously made a choice to keep yourself safe. Yes. And so therefore you can consciously make a choice to change that behavior and move forward. So you always have some, there's always some measure of power, always. You're never completely out of control. Yes, yes, yes. I love that message. And that's why we're both smiling. Because the biggest fear that we all, that people with anxiety have is that they're powerless. It's just, they don't have it within them. And we are seeing you have it within you. It's there. It's just you're staring at what you think you can't do, but just move your head a little bit this way and you'll see you've got the power. It's there. I spend a lot of my time with my clients just pointing to that. Look, it's there, it's there. And they're like, you know, you see their smile as they start to really embody that. So great. Yeah. So great. So what else we got? I think we're doing okay here. 20 minutes, we're not like rambling. It's all good. People could digest it. It's all good. Anything else you want to throw out there? I'm excited about your book. Oh my book. Yeah, we were talking about it before we started recording. We'll see. I have a lot of work to do, but I just, yeah, I just want to get the information out there more than anything else. Well, you know, just your group and your podcast and everything you've done to help people and now you're going to have it in written form is so awesome. Hopefully, you know, so you brought it up. And I know I might as well address it now because, you know, I have been very vocal against people who are trying to sell anything. I'll probably make it available for nothing. If you can't afford it, you can just have it. Okay. If you can't afford it. Where's the Kleenex? Hold on. Yeah, right. If you can't afford it, it's fine. If you can afford to pay four or five bucks or whatever it's going to be, great. If you can't, whatever. You are. And I think that's, I think that's okay. And I, you know, and we'll use some of the money to do good things for other people or whatever. So, yeah, because I've already been asked once. I thought you weren't going to sell anything. Well, first of all, I'll sell whatever I damn well want to sell if I choose to do it. But second of all, like, don't panic here. Right. Don't panic. So, but I appreciate the nice things you say. Very nice. Very sweet. That's great. Well, you're a great guy. Thank you very much. It's very sweet. Well, so we'll do another one next week, right? We got a thank you coming. Yeah. I don't remember what we're going to talk about. Well, we'll figure out then. I don't remember either, but we'll find something. It's okay. We tell everybody how to find you when they want to find you online. Sure. So, I have a podcast. It's called Freedom from CPTSD and Anxiety. And you can find me on my website at www.moniquecovencoaching.com. And I have a Facebook page, Monique Coven Coaching, and an Instagram account at www.CPTSD.recover.coach. Yes. And it's at your Instagram account. Has you written all over it? I just, I always get a kick out of it. It's like, oh, yeah, that's, yeah. Like, it's, you just come shining through and everything you put there. Oh, thank you. Oh, you obviously, you write all those, I'm guessing. You don't have somebody doing that for you. When you say write, what do you mean? Well, I mean, yeah, you do all that stuff. Yeah, yeah, I don't have anybody to write anything. Yeah, I know you don't have a whole team of people, but no, it's so reflective of your, like, positive personality. It's awesome. Oh, thank you. I do. Thank you. I will put links whether you're listening or, and by the way, you know almost 2,000 people have listened so far to our last one, 2,000 times. I moved the podcast to Anchor where you are, and I looked at the stats. I'm like, holy crap, I had no idea how many people were listening to these things. That's so cool. Yeah, 2,000 listens on the last one, so it's really cool. That's huge. Yeah, amazing, right? I would have never thought. But whether you're listening or if you're watching on YouTube, I'll put a link to Monique's stuff. Thank you. All right, guys. Thanks for coming by. I'll see you next week. Bye. Bye. Gotta stop the recording. Awkward moment.