 Welcome back to the 21 convention 2018 in Orlando, Florida. I'm excited to introduce our next speaker Obviously throughout the duration of the conference. We've heard a lot about how masculinity relates to our relationships with women But our next speaker is someone who talks about it in a much deeper and more Tribal context. He is a barbarian. He is someone who walks what he preaches It's interesting to me because I know that he wouldn't want anything to do with this But my own personal opinion is that in a hundred years from now We'll be reading about this man in history books and what he has done to help revitalize masculinity Even though he wants nothing to do with any of that. He just wants to build his own gang and be left alone He is the author of the way of men becoming a barbarian in his latest book a more complete beast Please welcome Jack Donovan. All right last year at 21 My speech was titled a more complete beast. I Developed that speech into a book and I released it about a couple months ago I talked about overcoming resentment and anger and hatred and focusing on a more creative path We don't live in a time where men need to be men We aren't forced by circumstances to become better at being men No one needs us to be stronger or more courageous Or more adept no one even wants us to have anything approaching honor Our world is fairly safe. We don't have to hunt for our food as I said in the book Masculinity is a hammer seeking a nail in a house that's already been built so If you want to be good at being a man today It's because you believe that being good at being a man is better. You're doing it for you To be the best version of you that you can be If you're here if you're watching this You're on a path of self-creation and recreation You're creating a better version of yourself You are taking what life has given you And creating a better man from it So today I'm going to talk a little bit about some ideas that I think will help you along that path of self-creation And these ideas are captured by an ancient symbol The or boroughs and I'm going to give you a little background first And then we're going to talk about some ways that we can apply this kind of ancient concept of the snake eating its own tail as you create your own life in the tomb of Tutankhamun Inscribed on the second shrine in case you're the boy King's famous sarcophagus There is a version of the book of Am Tuat a guide to the underworld This book tells the story of the Sun God Ra and his evening descent into the realm of night told hour by hour Ra travels across this harrowing world of water and sand tonight with either his own soul Or Osiris the God of the dead This unification initiates his regeneration He rises Overcomes the prophets the Egyptian God of Chaos and Then begins his journey to the dawn and the rebirth of his solar rain on the version of the book inscribed in tin-tuts tomb at the moment of unification of renewal The Sun God is protected by a serpent shown in a circular position With its tail in its mouth This snake God is Mayan and this circular Self-consuming orientation is the first recognized representation of the symbol known as the or boros This symbol recurs again and again Throughout Greek and Western magical and alchemical and religious traditions In an early alchemical drawing the snake that feeds on itself forever He's found in circling the words the all is one the or boros is linked to alchemy again and again Specifically in relation to the great work the magnum opus the production of the philosopher's stone The philosopher's stone was a substance or perhaps even a concept That could turn both base metals into gold and perhaps produce the elixir of life The elixir of life was believed to be the key to rejuvenation and immortal life In Germanic lore The or boros can be recognized as your man gumt The sea serpent that encircles the world bound to itself almost holding the world together Because when the snake releases its tail from its mouth It's a sign that the age is coming to an end and that gods and men will meet their final destiny Carl Jung Studied the symbols of alchemists and the lore of folklore of many peoples He saw these recurring symbols as keys to the unconscious or subconscious mind of men You wrote that the or boros is a dramatic symbol For the integration and assimilation of the opposite i.e. the shadow This feedback process is at the same time a symbol of immortality Since it is said of the or boros that he slays himself and brings himself to life Fertilizes himself and gives birth to himself now symbols mean what they mean historically and They also mean and take all the meaning that we choose to give to them Symbols are quick references there like logos and trademarks almost even acronyms They are compact devices semiotic devices that allow us to communicate effectively and efficiently to those in the know About a much bigger and more complicated concept So today I'm going to use this esoteric alchemical symbol to talk about ways to change the way that you think about time and training and The great work of creating your life. I'm gonna start with the body and I'm gonna build up from there. I Started talking thinking about the or boros Maybe oddly since it's so esoteric or whatever, but really I'm just a dude bro juice Dude bro a douche bag at heart. I just want to go to the gym and be left alone and so I think about things in terms of lifting maybe first and I Started thinking about the or boss because of this question that I get all the time And I talked to a couple of the trainers here to the over this weekend, and they all get this question too It's kind of the basic bro question that like dude. What's your workout like? you know what workout do I do to look like that and You know people who have been conditioned especially in the realm of fitness to Look for the one program to rule them all They're looking for a magic answer and the answer is magic But it's not linear or simple The answer is a mystery Because there actually is no one answer The answer is a series of strategies employed cyclically and artfully over time This answer generally involves experimentation and inspiration and You know I talked to tanner goosey about this early this weekend and the same thing actually applies to personal style You know, there is no one answer that is always going to be right So instead of asking the simple linear question Approach the problem with cyclical thinking. It's not just that it is a process because people say it all the time It's a process. It's the most advanced results actually require a series of processes You know elite athletes didn't start at a and keep repeating the same thing over and over and over and over again until they got to be You know if you think about the Olympic athletes at the Olympics Bodybuilder the day of the show they're in a state that they can only maintain for you know a few hours You know I've trained a lot with power lifters and you know What they lift on that day of the meat when they get that record that everybody gets excited about They maybe couldn't lift that two weeks prior or two weeks after that They're on a long training cycle and that's a peaking day and sometimes they don't get it right And they were stronger two weeks before the meat and then they fail their lift You know a fighter the day of his fight You know is that guy always as good as he is that day? No He did a long fight camp To get ready for that fight with a weight cut and all kinds of things involved with that You know so all these things that we see that are exemplars these goals that we want to get to they are peaks in cycles They aren't static states These guys aren't at that place all the time You know the trainers look at things in terms of macro cycles and mezzo cycles and micro cycles cycles of work and recovery bulking and cutting Chemical cycles nutritional cycles cycles of preparation and evaluation of learning and reflection You know to reach a peak state to even reach a level of initiation at which you can conceive of how to reach a peak state Requires a lot of trial trial and error a lot of running this program and that program and this exercise and that exercise and finding out what works and What doesn't what produces the most best, you know the best and most reliable results for you understanding what's works for you and when You know is the point at which just this art and mastery becomes your science And even the science may change over time Must be continually challenged because sometimes what works stops working and What works right now could be replaced by something that works a little bit better You know even with the best advice Progress is not guaranteed to be strictly linear And it can't be because there is no real end You know you don't just get there and stay there no matter what you're doing, you know only points You know moments benchmarks There'll be a series of ends and goals and victories But there also be tangents and discoveries and unforeseen obstacles You know sickness injuries Changes in trainers gyms that open and close The rules could change or some future version of yourself may see a new opportunity or a different way you want to go or a new goal And that moves you in a different direction closing doors and opening others You know nothing stays exactly the same as you receive new input and your environment changes Your training will change and you will change One of my prospects for my group. We'll call him pork chop When I gave him his prospect patch for a group and it's a long process that they have to go through and He had some physical goals because he was already really smart and you know, he had a lot of things going for him. I Said to him at the end of this process You can't even imagine what you will want then Because you will be a different person You know that the you that you are right now is going to change so much That what you think you want for your long-term future now is going to change completely You know, and you can apply this not only to training obviously, but to all aspects of life You know like the or boros the snake that consumes and regenerates itself You feed on and internalized your past your experiences and You adapt and create new manifestations of yourself You know based on who I've been and what I've seen What can I do now and? Who will I become next you know contemplating these cycles these loops? Brought to mind the work of a fighter pilot John Boyd who's best known for his develop development of the Oota loop As you can see You know, this is a decision-making loop that everybody goes through He does he Came up with it for dog fighting and you know military operations and strategy, but it applies to everything You know you go through this process where you observe You know what's out there? What's our mission? What where we go doing? Orient yourself, you know based on like your previous experiences You know everything you've learned in the past your your cultural traditions your background and then based on you know What your observations are and what you need to do, you know You just decide you make a decision about a direction to go and then you act and that action is a test and Then based on you know the results of that test you go back to the beginning What am I doing next and you know if someone's fighting or they're you know engaged in you know airplane dogfight or whatever that loop happens really really really fast and they teach that a lot of self-defense courses and What he's famous for is actually you know suggesting, you know, what you really need to do is create chaos and somebody else's OODA loop and You kind of disrupt it and do enough put enough chaos in their system that they don't know what's going on anymore And then you can kind of get around them and take take an advantage, but You know it's also a good way to conceptualize and you know evaluate your own decision-making process Whether you're talking about training whether you're talking about business, you know you you make a decision business decision what happened You know based on that what what should be your next step and what what's perhaps even more relevant here Is an essay that John Boyd wrote in 1976 to title the Destruction and creation and you can find that online somewhere if you look really hard He wrote our basic aim is to improve our capacity for independent action To survive and thrive in a changing environment We have to form mental concepts of observed reality So that we can make critical decisions about how to proceed and The goal of this essay Was to try and establish a model or a framework for making those kinds of decisions As our reality changes We have to keep going through a destructive process of taking our perception of reality taking it apart and reconfigure it and Recreating it to assimilate new information So I kind of looked at some of the concepts you talked about in this essay and You know on the destruction side of things as you're you know the dealing with new information. There's chaos in the system You know, that's deduction. You're breaking information down from general to specific You know you're differentiating things like what makes You know, what's the ultimate? Essence of this I mean that's kind of what I did when I wrote the way of men You know like differentiating break down. What belongs in here? What doesn't belong in here? What things go together? You know identifying your analyzing if you read my most recent book more complete beast I talk a little bit at the end about Nietzsche and Dionysian versus Apollonian Thinking in aspects of life and this is the kind of the Dionysian the destructive destructive phase and In terms of alchemy, this is a solvay And in the creation stage you're doing inductive reasoning. You're involved in sense of this You're moving from specific to general. You're finding these concepts and putting them back together again Integrating them into a new hole or an overarching theory You know, this is the Apollonian phase and in terms of alchemy. This is called coagulant. So to understand our reality We're always taking things apart Looking at the pieces and putting them back together to evolve our understanding This is true. Whether you're talking about training or business or life We're always breaking things down and putting them back together to shape a new reality in terms of self-analysis We're always or we always should be examining ourselves internalizing our experiences and creating new self-evolved concepts Who are you now? And who do you have to become to continue to thrive and improve your capacity? For independent action in the words of Boyd the process of structure on structure restructure on structure He's repeated endlessly In moving to higher and broader levels of elaboration Higher and broader levels of elaboration. I love that. I mean, isn't that what we're trying to do as? men and as humans Continually become what we are Challenge and expand our potential reach broader levels of elaboration of the self Boyd also made a point that rigid systems break more easily When you approach to anything is too rigid when your perception is too closed down Your perception tends to become increasingly wrong Because it isn't incorporating and adapting to new information And actually in the essay, it's you know, if you are a math guy or whatever he He gets into the he applies the law of second law of thermodynamics to it and a bunch of actually mathematical theories to prove why this is true You have to keep taking in new information and allowing it to disrupt your system you have to a little little chaos in the system and then synthesize and incorporate and This conference is actually a great Example of how to do that. Personally, I just moved to a small town. That's you know, 13,000 people No one does anything there except for maybe like play video games and maybe they do math and You know, there's just nothing going on It's very I could just sit alone in my office all day and you know coming to a conference like this you know, I get to have different influences and talk to different kinds of people and You know have things that I wasn't expecting here because you can you can sit in a room and Direct your own research like you know, I want to Listen to very specific, you know kinds of ideas and these ideas are connected to other ideas that I'm interested in and so forth and you can curate your Personal fee of information But when you come to a thing like this, you're allowing a little chaos in the system You're talking to people and they're suggesting ideas to you that you weren't looking for necessarily and This is kind of what I'm talking about You have to let that into the system every so often and it's part of the growth process and then you know you walk away from something like this and You incorporate that and synthesize this into your new You know the new version of yourself that it's gonna go forward, you know returning it to alchemy for a moment Carl Jung wrote there we go The alchemists saw the essence of his art and separation and analysis on one hand and synthesis and consolidation on the other For him there was first of all an initial state in which opposite tendencies or forces were in conflict Secondly, there was the great question of a procedure which would be capable of bringing the hostile elements and qualities Once they were separated back to unity again The initial state named chaos Was not given from the start, but had to be sought for as the primal material And just as the beginning of the work was not self-evident So to an even greater degree Was its end and that brings me to the final point that I wanted to make that I think is captured by the Ouroboros The snake that consumes and creates itself over and over When you think in linear terms You are oriented toward an end But there is no end, you know, the only really end is death and you know, most people may not even realize the moment that they die So for you in terms of your perception, it never ends You know, it may never end. So, you know, what happens when you reach your goal? You know, because if you only think linearly you're going toward a goal and then, you know, when you get to that goal What happens? You know, what then? You don't just stop You internalize that victory or defeat and you look for the next goal The next elaboration of the self The next victory. Men of this age is this empire of nothing I've been trained to work for the end You know, the weekend The end of work, the end of life Like prisoners who've been promised an hour in the yard Men have been promised that in return for five days of work, they will be released from their employment To enjoy two days of free time You know, at work, they do what the company wants them to do And take care not to say anything that, you know, the company has deemed inappropriate During these two days, celebrating America as the weekend Working men are encouraged to relax They are free to be who they really are Though increasingly, even in this time, is monitored by, you know, employers You know, who are going to look and scan all your profiles and things for possible signs of undesirable habits or viewpoints I think maybe many of you are aware of that You know, workers describe themselves by listing the kind of leisure activities that they prefer As well as the foods, beverages, entertainment products that they choose The things that they consume in the time that they are permitted to relax Their identities, their very lives are defined almost entirely by their recreational choices By their likes You know, beyond the weekend Men have been taught to work for vacations And eventually retirement The big weekend Granted to workers when they have reached the end of their useful lives You know, a lot of religions are oriented this way as well And I never understood what you were supposed to do in heaven anyway Isn't it a pleasant white blank, a softly lit question mark? An eternal happiness and stasis? A measured consistent drip of your favorite endorphins? You know, those who view life as suffering see death as a reward A forever weekend The time when they can finally relax and end the suffering of living The spirit of this age This, you know, this is the linear struggle to blank That's what I call it This is my broken downtown where I live There happened to be a sign that said recreation there I have to get that You know, men have been trained to struggle to an end And at the end, they are permitted to relax The word relax actually comes from a root that means to loosen And in this struggle to relax A man merely seeks a little slack in his bondage And to break from his chores Recreation is the reward for work You know, to be a great man To be a self-creator, a self-master What I referred to in my last book as a noble beast You need to stop thinking about recreation And start thinking about recreation You know, great man's recreational preferences are the least Interesting thing about him What kind of wine did Caesar drink? Nobody cares You know, it's trivia A tiny, forgettable detail Said against the grand story of his life The master creates He is known by his works Not his pastimes, not his likes His life is not suffering You know, the noble beast is glad to be alive He's glad to be able to exert his strength And his will and intellect He is pleased to be able to continue To create again and again The noble beast doesn't want to relax He just wants to keep becoming To keep making himself anew And I started thinking about this You know, talking to a young guy who has mentoring And you know, we were always working on projects And he was always like waiting for the end I'm like, when are you gonna stop waiting for the end And realize that there's always more to do You know, I think that people who are really Driving businesses and so forth in this world Are like, they're always looking for the next thing They're not like, ah, finally We have to be done And you know, I think that's a difference Between kind of winners and slaves, really When a man is forced to work He looks forward to the slackening of bonds And a break from the whip When a man forces himself to work He works to realize a vision But during the process More visions reveal themselves to him So he finds himself not working towards the end He finds himself not working toward an end of work But toward the next beginning To get to what's next I can't wait to get to the projects Get done with this conference And get to this party I have to host in a couple weeks And then I get to plan the next thing That I'm working on in my life And that's what I'm really excited about So don't struggle to get to the end So that you can relax, that's for slaves Struggle to get to the next struggle Just as a self-creator Your great work Your magnum opus The great work of creating your life Keeps going Until you die The creative man is a self-turning wheel A self-consuming serpent An oral boros Knowing away at his own flesh To feed his own growth The creative beast seeks no end He consumes the end Over and over In a continual process Of regeneration and becoming He dodges life inch by inch And with childlike exuberance He says yes to himself And to choose Ever-forward Okay, I'm going to open up the questions Great talk, Jack The question that I have is Always been like an avid reader That's how I stumbled on the red pill Never ending thirst for knowledge And one of the first questions I asked at the conference is that I do want to be a father one day I don't know if you're a father or not Okay, so one of the fears I have It's kind of like a mixture I do want to be a father But I know that kids They do take away from your time To develop yourself Because obviously you have to be there To collect your kids So how do you process that I don't know if you ever desire to become a father But are they kind of mutually exclusive to you Or is it something you ever thought about How you would integrate that In other words, not letting yourself Development miss a beat Because you have kids Because obviously we're no good to our kids as fathers If we stunt our growth as men Yeah, I mean The advice that I would give someone personally I certainly thought about it myself And now I feel really comfortable with it Like if it happened, I could deal with it I could deal with it and work it in Because I've done a lot of things in my life That I'm already proud of And so I have a base to move from I think where that really becomes a problem Is maybe for really young guys Who they get kind of trapped really quick Because I don't really have the resources To deal with that problem So I mean personally I think men should wait a little bit Maybe until they're a little bit 30 Or maybe they're a little bit 80 Women that's much younger But it gets to the point where maybe they're a little bit You know, I think Getting to the point where you're established And you just have more to offer And I think you have a better selection At that point And you know men kind of age Like wine or whatever So it's better But yeah, that's what I'm going to switch from a practical question To a philosophical question About humility I think especially with Training and things like that I have a lot of humility When I started going down This path myself, I mean I was already like 38 years old And so like when I go to a new Martial arts class or something like that I never really expect to be that good You know I don't have this huge ego That like an 18 year old has That they're like I'm going to immediately be The best person ever I'm just there to get better And so I approach a lot of things That way and I think that that's In terms of learning that's the best way To approach things, the humility is good You know Thank you My question would be What would be The promise For men To Produce a Alchemical change within themselves I mean it just depends I think Perfect example of what We're talking about because there is no one answer You have to look at the bigger picture Like what exactly, what Alchemical change are you Trying to produce in yourself I mean what are you trying to bring about And you know what are the processes That will best get you there And I think that's what you always have to be looking at Is what are the What am I actually trying to achieve And then orient things About the philosophy of the telos Like what is the end, where are you going And I think you need to orient Things around that and a lot of people Orient themselves around maybe the process Instead I think you need to like Pick a spot, head that way And then realize the spot might change Thank you so much sir Thanks Jack for your Presentation What are a couple Of concrete things that you would recommend To men who are Looking to forge a brotherhood with Other men who are Interested in their self-development And Whose self-development you are interested in As friends of virtue In the context of that being somewhat A rare thing in this day and age It's really hard I mean I obviously have the Advantage of maybe being a lightning rod For stuff like that so people reach out to me And talk to me about things like that But even geographically I'm not in a great place for it So I mean I think if I went to Texas I could start some stuff But I think that You know you have to Find like-minded guys Like guys are looking for something similar And it is hard to build a kind of Relationship in the real world Where you can hold each other accountable I mean personally I believe And I've said this before I think Oaths like fraternal brotherhoods And things like that There's a lot of guys who are like I know he's got my back And I've got his And you actually really don't know that A lot of times like it's just a feeling Maybe that you have and sometimes you do You have a good sense of that and sometimes you don't I think that But if you have someone kind of Where you've acknowledged a shared purpose Because I think men are actually really It's part of the honor Hard wiring that we have To once I've said something My word is my bond And that actually means something And so they will knock themselves out To Adhere to that Or do elaborate ways of finding a way To get around it But I think men will really really Worry themselves Around their words And if they've made an actual pact That means something So it's hard to get people to that place But I think to really get that kind of accountability That you need in terms of like pushing each other In the long term That's actually really helpful But in a short term It's like what everybody says Surround yourself with people who are successful And if you keep feeding I think with relationships too Any relationship, what are you giving Has to be constantly your question That you're asking like What am I giving back And so A lot of people approach Someone who's successful And they kind of just Go to them looking for answers And for them to keep giving them And you have to approach somebody With something that you're willing to give as well There has to be reciprocation always So you mentioned You want to struggle on to the next struggle Don't struggle to find the relaxation And I understand that it speaks to me It's going to be It's important for me to take trips To experience other cultures Where do you classify that Where do you fit in I don't want to say the relaxation of the vacation But that's kind of what it is Where do you fit that into this I actually think that That's part of the struggle The struggle I can't see myself Just going somewhere to sit on a beach And just whatever I mean to me There would have to be a purpose Involved like I went to Germany Like three times in the past two years And I went once to give a speech And then the second time I brought my You know Was more of a vacation the second time But I'm still shooting pictures I'm still making content for Instagram I'm doing all this stuff And the third time was for another event But I also brought my photographer with me Things that I'm trying to do So personally when I envision Vacations and travel It's always about Something that I want to accomplish I mean putting yourself into a new Environment is actually a really good way To induce that chaos into the system Like going to a foreign country for the first time Like that's a whole New thing that you have to deal with And you're getting all kinds of new input That you weren't getting before I've been thinking about that in terms of myself It's like if I'm in this small town And I need that kind of input Well maybe what I'm going to start doing Is going to more Two weeks intensive training of this Or traveling to get A real experience and really learn something And so that's where I would classify it Really I mean everybody needs downtime But I think especially If you're self employed You have your downtime Is kind of when you pick it You're not working for your downtime So I'm going to do this today Because I feel like it And everybody has to do that But I don't think that should be the focus of your life And that was kind of the point that I was trying to make Is like the focus shouldn't be For the vacation It should be towards greater work A recurring theme that I'm getting Like Mr. Swift said it And Eric Bonsaito said it Kind of like when you pass the war Your phase and you turn into like an elder And I'm listening to you And I'm like I'm a young woman About children like you need resources You kind of have to get into that other stage Before you can take on that responsibility And my question is about for brotherhood If you are like I'm a younger man What do I have to offer Like the brotherhood Like if I'm looking for mentorship from elders Right they have a lot of resources I have like a lot of energy But what obviously that's a reciprocation Like you just said So what exactly Like them to be able to mentor me Work You know I mean like That's what people have interns right Work and obviously If you can find some other ways to make yourself available I mean like you know people who You know Become part of my group recently It's like I think in any company You know I learned this when I was actually working In the business world and so forth You know You're trying to Justify your existence Always You know I had a manager Who was always trying to take on new responsibilities You know because she saw other things She was doing getting phased out And so you always want to take on new responsibilities So you can keep justifying your existence And so like You know like the photography thing was actually a good example Like I had Someone working with me who You know that was a way That they could add value So you can take pictures Here's some you know I'll pay for you to take classes So that you can take some pictures because that's what I need And then you know That's a way that you can provide value So you always really have to be looking for ways to Provide value I think Thank you Thank you Jack for your Speech and great speech I have a question regarding Your comments How can we Fight The escalation that is going on in our society In our homes Because there is a war against men Against masculinity There is one of the shirts that is being sold Where Slogan in the back If you were in certain places They will shoot you I think it's yellow I would appreciate it Yeah no You know it's a tough one because You know the problem that I ran into And I stopped doing this a few years ago Because I went through my I feel like I put in my time on that particular fight I Did a lot of reading of feminism And I wrote a really long response To it which I have Online for free And the arguments haven't changed They haven't changed in 30 or 40 years They just you know like Masculinity is a mask Well that comes from like the 70s That's not new Over and over again So I feel like once you know the background of it If you have a little bit of background You can respond to it better But I always like the quote I think it's from Putin That says I try never to argue with women And That's kind of where I'm at I don't want to spend my life And I feel like that's the trap That we get stuck in with society Is that They're just Complete sociopaths And they work for these Newspapers And they're just terrible people And they're basically just Provocateurs And so they put out this content And I don't even know if they believe half of it Or maybe they just believe that the moment They were typing it or whatever And the latest outrage You always see it come up in your feed I try to not follow people who put it up there I don't want to see that anymore But the latest outrage The latest dumb thing some feminist said That doesn't make any sense and is obviously wrong It gets to a point where they are Calling the tune and we're dancing to it And so okay Well they said something crazy now we respond Now they say something crazy and we respond They're leading And I think that that's a problem And I think that the challenge for men If they're going to create a different narrative Is not to keep Responding to them all the time But to create a Different A different narrative that goes over that And is separate from it Because if you're always responding to it I said in the book Actually it's Like a boxer, you're always throwing out jabs And moving backwards That's all you're doing You're just keeping the way Like that's what reactionaries do When they keep responding to every Crazy thing that feminists say They're always throwing out jabs and moving Backward and not really getting anything done And I think that that was kind of the point Of my last book was Focus on creating a new direction Rather than Responding and moving backward I appreciate your answer I got a question actually here Cool What call to action would you give Younger men Who are Interested in developing tribes And also How do you see this Tribal element Unfolding in the future As the world becomes more and more digital As more and more things become Globalized and everything How do you see tribes interacting with this With these changes Well you can't go out in the woods And live by yourselves and not interact with anybody That's not real That's You can't just hide From a lot of world I think that if you're actually I always put things in the context Of barbarians at the end of Rome And they're just waiting for something They're just picking off around the corners As the whole thing's falling down And I really think that that's what you have to be doing Is like rather than People get purists About things like I know a lot of people Like technology and whatever But I think Our ancestors who were winners Would have said use every advantage And I think the challenge Is not losing who you are In that But in terms of creating a tribe You can't create a tribe That is just outside of modernity Because that's not a thing Someone's going to have to work And you're going to have to pay taxes And you can't just go to a desert island And create a special utopia But the more you can carve out Something That has its own identity I think that's the real challenge Thank you Alright guys, let's give it up for Jack Donovan Thank you