 If you want to pump your body and expand your mind, there's only one place to go. Mind pump, mind pump, with your hosts, Sal DeStefano, Adam Schaefer, and Justin Andrews. In this episode, we interview and talk to and get interviewed by Rob Dion from Open Sky Fitness. Handsome guy. Some very good looking guy. A lot of handsomeness going on here. Some of my favorite people to talk to when we do our podcast or other fitness podcasters because we love to see what drives them to do what they do, what their belief system is, and methodologies are when it comes to fitness and wellness. And a lot of what we talk about lines up very well with Rob. So we had great conversation. Which is unique, too, coming from LA where there is a lot of shenanigans down there based off of vanity and all these other interesting ideas floating around from celebrities. Yeah, he definitely is, he's in that world. Yeah, he's in the extreme of what we talk about. What's wrong with the industry? He lives in the heart of that and shares some pretty cool stories, some of the trainers that are around him, some of the things that he's seen, and also why he's inspired to present the message that he's presenting, which is very similar to a lot of what Mind Pump talks about. So and we didn't really know this until we got on the show. So it was really exciting to get to know him and find out more about him. Because if you just take a quick snapshot of him, you see he's a really good looking guy who's out of, I think he has an actor background, which he talks about on the show. Yeah, we watched his commercial there for a minute. Right, and you're not sure, is this going to be like a Julian Michael type of somebody who is casted to be a personal trainer, is he legit? And he's a legit personal trainer, and he has a cool story on what took him down that path. And he has a beautiful fit wife, and they share all kinds of their recipes and health secrets on his Instagram, too. So make sure you check out all his stuff. Yeah, so his podcast is OpenSky Fitness. Their website is openskyfitness.com, and his Instagram is at OpenSky Fitness. Also, we have put together Maps Prime and Maps Prime Pro together in the Prime Bundle. Now, we've had people ask us what's the difference between the two programs. Maps Prime, which we put out first and we put that out a little while ago, is really your, we consider it like your pre-workout. It helps you design what you do to prime your body for your workout so you could squat better and more effectively. You could deadlift better, more effectively. Bench press better, more effectively. Basically, add it to whatever workout you're doing. Do it right before your workout as your, quote-unquote, warm-up, and get far better results from your workout. And then Maps Prime Pro, well, that's just pure correctional. I mean, it's got a self-assessment tool that covers, I mean, the entire body, but really parts of the body that you don't learn how to assess anywhere else, really. In fact, the movements in Prime Pro, many of them were even unfamiliar to me, Adam and Justin. We've been in the industry for 15 to 20 years, and that's because we recruited Dr. Justin Brink, who's just this incredible movement specialist, and he really helped us design Maps Prime Pro. Well, it's cool about Maps Prime Pro. We just provided another sort of an answer, a sort of a bridge between, sometimes people may feel a little bit helpless, like I really wanna get into the swing of things and get into working out the way I used to work out. And a lot of times, they need to dig deeper and they need to find out how their body, what the current state of their body is right now. Think about it this way. You have wrist pain that's kind of chronic and it happens sometimes. My neck tends to bother me sometimes, or I can't do that exercise anymore because my shoulder kinda hurts, or when I squat, I notice some knee pain or hip pain, or I just don't feel these muscles firing the way they should. This is what Prime Pro is designed for. It literally has a self-assessment tool for the wrist and hands, your neck, your shoulders and your shoulder blades, your hips, your feet, your ankles, your toes, areas that are almost never covered that have huge impacts on just how you feel, how effective you can make your workouts, your aches and pains. I'll tell you what, if you're a personal trainer or somebody that works with people in that particular regard, a chiropractor, or a physical therapist or whatever, this program is absolutely invaluable and so what we've done is we've taken Maps Prime and Maps Prime Pro and we've combined them together and discounted them in the Prime Bundle. And you can find this at mindpumpmedia.com and without any further ado, here's our interview with Rob Dion from Open Sky Fitness. The way it works is Doug's kind of like the father of the podcast and you know when you have kids. Do you have kids, Rob, by the way? I don't have kids. Okay, so when you have kids, if you have multiple children, as a father, as a good parent, what you do is you identify... Your favorite. Which child... No, no, no, not necessarily. You identify which child... You know what? You should be a father. Yeah, bro. Shit, okay. You identify which child needs more help. You know what I mean? So it's Adam that person. Yeah, so Doug, Doug give the expensive equipment. Yeah, it needs to sound good. Cause I don't need it. He says the guy who sounds like fucking Kermit on here, right? Hey listen, that's my big tonsil. I got that right tonsil. He turns it up and EQs them all perfectly. Rob, where are you flying in from right now? I'm flying, I just flew in from LA. Oh, okay. Yeah, it was like a $97 round trip ticket and it was like, I can't fucking pass that up. LA's fucking great by the way. What a great place, huh? Yeah, well I love Southern California. I can't say that I love LA. No, who likes LA? I don't think that many people like LA. I think only the people that grew up there like LA. Maybe. I mean, I think everybody that moves there falls in love with the weather but then after that, maybe 10 years, you're just like, wow, I need to get the fuck out of here. Are you born and raised there? No, I'm born and raised Long Island. Oh, there you go. Where are you guys from? You're all from here, San Jose? Yeah. Oh, really? Long Island, huh? That's my people, you're around my people. That's right. I'm like, ah, it doesn't look like it's from LA. Yeah, that's right. Well, I grew up out there. I moved when I was, I moved into Queens when I was, I don't know, 20 years old, 20, no, 25 years old. And I lasted there for about three years and I got sick of it. I came out to LA originally, I don't know if you guys know this about me, so I was an actor. I moved to LA to be an actor. You're handsome. I could tell you should be doing it. And that's why my voice is very nice. It has nothing to do with this microphone right now. I've got this locked in. So I moved out there to be an actor because I spent the month of February out there for pilot season. The weather was ridiculous. I came back home to Queens and it was, you know, the end of February to slush, sleet, rain. It was disgusting. And I told my wife or who was my girlfriend at the time, we're getting at a dodge. We gotta go. So we moved that summer. We literally moved just on a total whim. Let's just get out of here just because of the weather. So what kind of work did you do as an actor? Was there anything we know? I was on, like adult films, like just like Justin, I was on lots and lots and lots of adult films. I was on Guiding Light for just like as a guest star there for a couple of episodes. What is that? I don't know what that is, what is that? Guiding Light, soap opera. Oh, okay. You don't know soap operas? Yeah. That's since then, since I've been on, they've canceled it. It could be because of me, but I'm not exactly sure. But yeah, this is, it was- Like a true soap opera, like married with, or what's the children, all my children. All my children as the world turns, all that crap. I remember those ones. My mom watched those when I was a kid. Yeah, Guiding Light was huge. My mom watched it when I was a kid and my sisters and my mom could not be more happy that I was on that show. Were you the hot trainer boyfriend that was banging the wife? No, unfortunately, that would have been awesome. I would have totally loved to do that. But at the time, I wasn't even, I wasn't really in that good a shape. I was just, because I was just an actor who had a history of being an athlete when I was a kid. But I didn't really, that wasn't, it was like a middle ground in my life where, and we could talk about this because my 20s was just like a shit time in terms of being healthy. By the time I got married at 30, I was like 30 pounds overweight. I just, I look like crap and so, but anyway, I was on that show and I played a detective for two episodes, three episodes and that was it. But I mean, I did little things here and there, but you know, my acting career, you wouldn't recognize me in anything. Oh, you know what I'm on? Actually, if everybody wants to Google this, if you go Google Centrum Silver, strip poker commercial. No way. I swear to God, if you guys want to Google it, you could totally Google it. I was on that and it's got millions and millions of downloads because it's like the guy who created this guy, Eric, who, it was a spec spot. You guys know what that is? A spec spot is when a director or somebody, somebody makes a commercial for free. Like if they make it, they pay for it themselves and then they try to sell it. As like, hey, look what I can do. So he made this spec spot and it crushed. It was the coolest commercial. It was about us like sitting around playing strip poker and it's got a really good twist at the end, so you gotta check it out. But Centrum Silver wouldn't buy it. On YouTube, where can we look at YouTube? You can literally look it up on YouTube. It's on, if you can Google it, it'll pop up anywhere. Doug's pulling it up right now. All right, so here it is. There I am. That's me right there. So I got a total, quick little backstory. If you're gonna play this, it's already losing is what I see. Yeah, so quick little backstory. So I got cast as the other guy's role when, and I hope he doesn't hear this because it sounds like I'm talking shit about him. But I got cast as the other guy's role and he couldn't do, he couldn't just do like a look back and forth. And you'll see it. It's like a little joke at the end there. He couldn't pull that off. So I got swapped out and actually did that right there. You see that? That was you? That was it, and then, you know. But you saw, okay, let's watch this thing. Wow. That's my lead in, yeah. And I got to re- How old are you right here? That was 2006. So that was- That's a while ago. I was 29, yeah. Oh, you're much older. You're 40, 39, 40. I'm 40, I just turned 40. Yeah. Oh, happy birthday. Thank you very much. Yeah. And you can see, and you can see I was, this is before I became a personal trainer or anything like that. So I actually, I'm not in great shape. So don't make fun of me. So you're in guiding light. You're like, I fucking made it. That's right. That's it. I'm gonna take off now. I thought I was just like gonna be vacationing. It didn't work out for you. When did you make the pivot to fitness? Well, I was doing, it's a good question. I was doing a play and I had to take my shirt off in the play. And so I was like, fuck, I can't look like a total douche bag on this on, you know, on stage. It was Troilus and Cressida, Shakespeare. So, you know, I was trained. I went to a conservatory. I went to an acting conservatory. Oh, good deal. So I had to get in shape for this. So I was, I mean, I knew how to work out. I knew how to diet kind of at the time. And I got ripped for this, for this role. One of the guys that was in the show with me, I was playing Achilles and he was playing Ajax. And I got, and he was like, how did you fucking do that? Like you look insane. And I said, I just, you know, I worked out. I just dieted and he said, well, can you train me? And I, I'm not a trainer. And he said, well, I'll pay you to do it. And I said, okay, well, sure. And so I did it. And I felt like a total hack for like the first three months, six months I was training him. He was getting good results. And then I went and got my certification and I got my advanced certifications all through NASM, but also CrossFit got into CrossFit for a while. We can talk about that. No, you guys feel like that. So you got hurt. You're 100% right. You're not even, that's why I stopped. I totally blew my shoulder out and I had like a, yeah, a C67 herniation. Oh, shit. Totally fucked myself up. Sorry about that. No, that's all right. So, yeah, so that guy asked me to train him and that was basically me off and running. He actually lost 100 pounds in the first, in the first year and a half. He's one of my best friends. I was at his wedding. He's a fantastic guy. So. Now, do you have, do you have you fallen now in love with training as much as you were with acting? Or is this something like you do on the side while you still want to do acting? I mean. Yeah. Well, do I want to do acting? Not really. I mean, I love doing podcasting. I love being able to talk like this because I feel like I get to perform. And that's one outlet. I feel like you're too good looking for podcasting. I do. This is really good for us. You guys have faces for radio. Yes. Thank you, asshole. You're this guy out of here, quick. Pointing out the obvious here. But, you know, it's like, I, you know, if I could, if I literally could, Doug, if you want to sign on, you know, if I could afford to spend the time doing videos and stuff like that and YouTube work, I would, it's just, there's so much. I'm trying to juggle my personal training career as well as my online posting, you know, my podcasting and all that content. It's a monster. It's a monster of amount of work to do. And also then be healthy at the same time and try to figure that shit out, you know, which we all do. And actually I have remind me because I posted in my Facebook group that I was coming on the show today and they, some of the people, they're like, oh my God, my two favorite podcasts are coming together. Which is actually kind of cool. So there was a couple. So if you guys have any questions, let me know. I'll throw them in the show and these guys can answer if you want. Oh yeah, pull them up dude. We'll fire those up in just a little bit. Yeah, we do Q and A's all the time here. Exactly. Yeah, that's a really good idea. That's cool. So good deal. So with fitness, you got into fitness, did you fall in love with it after you started training this guy? Yeah, I did. And you know, I fell in love with the fitness aspect of it. I also fell in love with the business aspect of it. I really did, I ended up doing this. That's gotta be tough though because you're in, I mean the fitness, we rail against the fitness industry quite a bit. And of course, the whole fitness industry isn't the same. But a lot of the fitness industry that gets the attention that makes the money is the parts that we really don't like. The ones that- Right, six pack abs. Yeah, and they lie and the snake oil and the sham and all that bullshit and the Photoshop pictures and all that stuff. And you're like literally in the epicenter of that. You're in L.A. which is like, that's where a lot of it comes out of. When you got into fitness, what made you love it and what made, did you see that right away? Did you, and you're also in acting, shit. I mean, acting is right along the lines, right? With that kind of stuff. Totally, I was trying to figure out what my angle was going to be as a personal trainer. I knew that it was right around the time that P90X came out, right? Or maybe P90X or P90X2 I can't remember at the time, but Tony Horton was huge at the time and he had all that crap about muscle confusion and everything like that. I've had him on my show. But- How are you Tony? Yeah, he's great. What's going on? He's listening to this, right? He's one of your fans, right? Okay, good. So I decided and I knew that I had to do something that really made me stand out in the community because you're a personal trainer starting in Los Angeles with no history, right? So I was thinking, do I want to work in a box gym? I didn't want to go that route because I didn't believe in those guys. I didn't know, I know that you guys started out in that area and maybe it would have been a better business choice in order to build a clientele. But I didn't want to go that route because my wife was already working at, it was Sports Club LA at the time, which is now Equinox. Got it. And it was, I knew how much money they were taking from her and I just, I didn't want to do all the legwork and then have them take a huge chunk of that. So I put an ad on Craigslist and I posted, hey, I'm getting a new certification, NASM. They didn't know it was my first certification and I want to practice on you. I'm going to give our sessions for 20 bucks. Nobody responded. It was crickets, literally crickets. So I doubled the price and I got people almost immediately. Isn't that funny? Yeah, it was literally an associates like this guy. Yeah, it was perceived value, exactly. That was my first lesson in perceived value. It was like- What a great story though. It's a great lesson right here. Yeah, so I doubled my price and I started building my clientele from there and I did all of my training outside in the park, zero overhead, and I just learned how to do all the stuff. Now is that where the name Open Sky comes from? That's exactly where it came from. That's why I was trying to figure out, what is my name going to be? It has to be something that shows what I did. I didn't work out with, even though my background was obviously, was weightlifting as a kid through sports, but I wanted to build programs and workouts that were all bands, body weight, medicine balls, shit that I can carry on my back in the park. And I used the hills there and the stairs there and we really utilized the entire area, which was really great for the first five years. Excellent, excellent. It's cool meeting someone like you who's a professional in the fitness industry who started later on almost as a second career. I love asking, because I've met, I've had a few trainers that have worked for me in that same situation. I love asking them questions, because I started as a kid in fitness. I was like the first career I ever had. And there's a lot of pitfalls you step into because you're a kid, you know what I mean? But you came into a little older. Were there moments where you had kinda aha moments where you learned things about fitness, just training others that you thought maybe were true? Oh yeah, I would try to take people through the stupidest shit ever. Like, I think that a ton of my clients would probably get injured in the beginning because I was just trying to do things that were way too advanced. And I think that's what a lot of young trainers do as well. They think that their clients are almost as invincible as they are. When the people complain about knee pain, they just would be like, don't worry about it, you're gonna be okay. Instead of trying to find an alternative movement that doesn't cause that pain or even addressing what their movement pattern is, and see if they can try to break that down and see if they can solve that problem. I used to tell my trainers, you don't wanna be the trainer that a client calls you and says, I can't make my workout today because I hurt my back. You wanna be the trainer that your client calls and says, hey, I hurt my back, can I come see you? So you can help me out. And when you provide that kind of value, then you become successful as a personal trainer. I think a lot of trainers and just people in fitness in general confuse intensity, soreness, and sweating with effectiveness. And I think a lot of times you're trying to show off as a young trainer, like you're trying to wow them. Yeah, with all these fancy exercises and give them a really hard workout. So it's like, oh, if you feel this, so it's working, right? And so that's the entire thing. That's part of what's wrong with the industry and the culture that we have created for ourselves is, you know, the clients come in with that perspective, they're expecting that, right? Like, I remember being a young trainer and I remember, you know, trying to program what I thought was best for the client, but then them not getting what they wanted from it, which is, I already know this exercise, like teach me something new, show me something different, you know? And so, you know, at one point as a trainer, when you're coming up and you're trying to build a business, you ask yourself like, fuck, I know what's best for this person, but then I also know what I gotta do to keep them coming and make them, you know? So you have this struggle, and I think all trainers struggle with that at one point in their career. It's just a matter of how many of them actually break through and then get better and get better and get to the point where that's no longer a concern. Yeah, and I think for most trainers, their goal is to keep that client as long as possible, you know, and not necessarily, and not have them ever leave. So there's a lot of trainers at the gym that I work out at in West Hollywood, and I just, one of the guys came up to me, he goes, he's talking to me, he's like, you gotta do muscle confusion, you gotta really trick him up, you gotta have him doing a different workout every time, and you know, and I was like, I couldn't disagree with you more. Like I literally couldn't disagree with you more. Like there's no way anybody's gonna go through adaptation if they're doing something different every fucking time they walk in the world. Very, very, very true. How are they gonna get good at it if they're doing something, if they're never doing the same thing? Very true, there's a kind of, if you look at adaptation, you look at an exercise even, there's this bell curve of adaptation where in the beginning you see little, then you start to get good at it, then you see lots of results from that exercise, that movement or that modality, and then you start to get diminishing returns. It's at that point that you wanna change the adaptation. This is why with our, we have programs that we sell, and our programs are phased, where you're focusing on a particular style of adaptation for anywhere between two to four weeks, depending on our program, because we know as trainers, you gotta do that long to get the most out of it before you move on to the next one. If you change all the time, it's gotta be measurable. That's right, and you gotta be able to measure what's working, you know? If you change it every single time. Yeah, what do you know? Like you're just shooting it all out there. And the button, the terminology that we use, muscle confusion, your muscles are stupid. They're not smart, you don't need to confuse them. They're not gonna figure it out. Yeah, they're not, your central nervous system, you could definitely throw different things at your CNS, but again, you need to get good at something to be able to get that type of adaptation. So I'm glad you said that. What about nutrition and stuff like that? When did you figure out the whole protein and small meals? Do you still advocate that kind of stuff? That's good, so what do you, yeah, are you stupid? Well, I mean a lot of people do, right? You're really good. No, we, you know those. My wife is actually a holistic nutrition counselor, so there's been, that was a big switch for me. When I was just working out in New York before I came out to LA and I was just going for runs or something like that and working out with my buddies, I would stop and get a hot dog on the street on the way over. You know, I would get a slice of pizza on the way over and I'd do my workout with the burping and farting the entire time, just terrible. And I thought that it was like whatever, I'm working out, I don't have to worry about that. So that was my, there's a whole history of generational eating that I had to deal with and basically unpack and then figure out why I need to change this. And just in general, if I'm gonna give an overview, obviously our whole entire recommendation is a whole food diet. That's everything that my wife and I stand for. We don't necessarily believe that you need to supplement your supplement, your diet with anything, unless it's like things like vitamin D, things that you might be deficient in, that you're naturally deficient in, that you can't get from your food. But generally, most people are just, they're just eating shit. They're eating processed food all the time, fast food all the time, and they're just not getting in enough whole foods, whether it be veggies and meats, you know, and nuts and seeds or whatever. That makes it hard for you to get sponsored by supplement companies. It makes it really hard to make money. Because I'm so middle of the road, like I do not, we are very paleo style, but I'm not this dogmatic paleo approach guy. We believe that the ketogenic diet could be very effective for some people, but it's not necessarily for everybody and it's not also like a lifestyle that I would want to live for the rest of my life. So there's all these different things that you could potentially take from, maybe Whole30 is a great one, but that's like a 30 day diet. There's some great diet programs out there, but in reality, there is no such thing as a program that's right for everybody. Everybody has to figure it out on their own. I'm glad to hear that from another fitness podcaster because it seems like we're the minority. Although I feel like it's starting to grow. I feel like people are starting to have a little bit of a different approach. I mean, it wasn't that long ago in fitness where it was eat five small meals a day, two or three of them are a meal replacement powder or a bar. Here's all your supplements. If you're fat loss, if you're close fat loss, if you're close muscle building, your training needs to be super high intense body part split type stuff. And now you're starting to hear more people speak out and say, hold on a second, this doesn't work for most people. Here's what the approach should be. I mean, as a trainer training clients, every time I would try and apply those approaches to my clients, because I would do them on myself and I'd get away with them, then I would apply it to my clients and it just didn't work. So I'd switch back to something else and never made the connection and never made the connection that, wait a minute, I probably a lot more like my clients than I think I am. And if I start doing those things for myself, I'll probably see better results. And that's exactly what happened. So it's interesting that the journey that you go on on your own and then mirror next to, like you have this juxtaposition of your client next to you, because all the things that you're doing, you feel like you want to teach your client. And the same thing for the podcast, everything that you guys are working on on your own, that's exactly what you talk about on your show. So it's only natural that you would try to influence your clients based on all the different things that you're learning. Now the problem is, is that if you have clients for like eight years and then you told them something eight years ago and now you're telling them something different, they're like, whoa, whoa, whoa, back up a second. Like you told me that I don't have to do this. You told me that that's not a good thing to do. I'm like, well, look, science fucking changes. People learn, people adapt to new information. So if you're not willing to adapt and try something new, then I can't really help you. But I can't tell you that what we're doing right now, and it's unfortunate, but for certain things, but I can't tell you what we're doing right now is 100% right because I might learn something tomorrow that tells me that it might be slightly wrong. Here's why I feel like a lot of the advice, the general advice, maybe not the specifics because that tends to change, but the more general advice, here's why I think we're on track this time because it seems like in all of science, medicine, and health, we're kind of making this, it's coming full circle. Everything started out food-based, then it became take these foods and extract these things and it turned into standardized, these particular chemicals, then it came to pharmaceuticals and synthetics, and now it's coming back around to where we're finding like, wait a minute, we co-evolved with food, we co-evolved with bacteria, we co-evolved with our environment, and because of that evolutionary process took so long, it probably is best for us to mimic some of those foods and eat those natural things, and there's a lot of it that we don't understand, but we're finding that it just, it's just better, we tend to be healthier. What do you guys think is the kind of impetus for that? What do you think created that turn? I have a theory on it, I'm curious to see. Turn for the bad or turn for the good? Turn for the good in terms of like us thinking about evolutionary eating, how we progress physically. I think the pendulum has swung just like we saw with cigarettes, right? I mean, just 20 years ago, you weren't cool if you weren't smoking, just 20, 30 years ago, I was smoking 20 years ago. I mean, 20 years ago, people were smoking, everybody was smoking cigarettes and it was a cool thing to do and fucking your doctor would take a smoke break between his patients, you know? My cousins were delivered by a doctor that was smoking while he delivered. Right, so what we have seen, and cigarettes still exist, they still exist, they haven't gone away, crazy that they do. Right, and people still smoked them and they will never stop, right? Probably because the addictive properties, whatever, but the point is it has gotten to a point though now where you could be somewhere and be like, oh my God, she's smoking gross, you know, when people are grossed out by it. So we have seen the pendulum swing one way and it's coming back the other. What's the information age? Well, and what has happened is people, yeah, we know now, we know like we're not oblivious to what it does. Now, we were marketed to 20 years ago that even when they kind of knew it was bad that, oh, it's still kind of good, so we were confused, where enough information now has came out where, okay, we know it's fucking bad. Well, we're going through that right now with food is there's still some people that are pushing back that are still blinded by the advertising and marketing bullshit or PhDs that are giving bad information still out there, but there are more good- You gotta fact check them now. Yeah, there's more good brilliant minds coming forward and that was a lot of what inspired Mind Pump was to be part of that movement of helping catapult some of these names because what we found was, man, I would meet people in the industry that are just, they're huge and I'd be so excited to meet them, all the huge following and then we started to, you listen to the information that they're giving and you're just like, fuck, it's terrible. Then I have a guy who's a brilliant mind that nobody knows who the fuck he is. Yeah, there's a lot of those. That's teaching me all kinds of things, things I never knew and I should have known as a trainer and a health professional years ago and I'm learning so much, I'm thinking like, how the fuck does not more people get to hear this information? And just because they're not sexy, they're not sexy, they're not, they're not. They don't take their shirts off in their pictures. Yes, and they're not marketable, you know, they're brilliant, they spent all their time in books and labs and learning and so that tide is turning and I think it's because it swung so far and now we're seeing all these autoimmune issues and shit going on and we can't put our finger on exactly where it's coming from, everything's starting to lead back to, it's probably what we're eating. In my opinion, it just takes time. I mean, anytime we solve one problem, this is what we do, this is our history, history of humans, we'll solve a problem with something that then becomes a problem itself because the solution then becomes that, look, antibiotics, right? We discover antibiotics, we won the war against bacteria and germs and the over-prescription of antibiotics in everything, everything from hand soap to, you know, cow feed to even the antibiotics we take, now we're starting to see the repercussions of that, the unintended side effects. We need bacteria in our body. We not only need bacteria, but if we just obliterate it all the time, we can create pandemics and epidemics. We're ticking a ticking time bomb at the moment from something that we created. I just think, look, X-rays, when X-rays got discovered and used, I don't know if you guys knew this, but podiatrists used X-rays when they'd sell shoes. You would go in to buy a pair of tennis shoes or whatever and they'd X-ray your foot and be like, oh, it fits perfectly, that your kid would go in there and put the shoe on because they didn't know the date. Absolutely true, absolutely true. Some of the first X-rays used commercially were used in places that sold shoes. Choose the kids in particular. But we didn't understand it and then we started learning some of the negative effects. With food, we solved hunger. We really did. In the modern world, in modern societies, Western societies, we don't starve. We used to all the time. We don't really get malnourished either. I mean, I know we talk about people who have deficiencies and we're not healthy, but we don't see people with rickets and scurvy and all these other disorders. Yeah, you'll see some people that are just eating gas station food that haven't had any nutrients and they do still have cases of scurvy and rickets. You do, but it's rare compared to how it's a pork. Nobody's going hungry. Nobody's going hungry. It's just that they're misinformed, like our uninformed, I should say, uneducated. And we solved that, right? We solved that problem, but the way we solved it was with mass produced, heavily processed, long shelf life food. And because we live in a market-based society, which has got great pluses, there's also some potential negatives. And one of them is that you're always going to follow the consumer. And the consumer just wants something that tastes good. And so the engineering, which we've always done, humans, ever since we started cooking food, we've engineered meals to make them more palatable. It's just modern technology really took that to the next level. And now you've got foods that have flavors in them that would never exist in nature and we're mass producing and you can buy them anywhere and they're super cheap and you've got problems like obesity, diabetes, autoimmune diseases that are creeping up and it just took time. It's taken, really the obesity epidemic didn't really start to take off until the 1970s probably. And so that's a good four or five decades and now you're going to start to see, I think you're starting to see- The turnaround. The turnaround, in fact, I know soda sales have dropped. I know fast food sales are starting to drop. Well, we solved all those problems, right? We solved all those problems of hunger and the immediate needs. And so now it becomes this whole plethora of new problems that we've created. And with the internet, creating all this like information, this vastness of information now that we can access, now it's like we question everything now. Like let's question the common thought process of like, okay, how did we get back, how did we get in shape back in the day and what were the methods that everybody was using and then kind of peer into that process a little bit more, bring that back to surface and dissect what was good, what was bad. And I feel like just the thought process of that alone has created a lot of people to get interested back into either old or methods that were overlooked. And again, if we look at the Industrial Revolution, when that really started taking off, like nothing we built could be bad. It was like, at the time, I love reading about history because we tend to repeat some of the same mistakes, but at the time it was incredible. Like here's the Industrial Revolution, we're building machines that are doing things that we could never do before. Every month, every newspaper that came out was this new advancement with these new technologies when they were using first steam power and then coal technology and the engine and all these. It was incredible. And then they built the Titanic, the Titanic, unsingable. It was like a, it was a marvel of modern technology. And it went down. And people started saying, hold on a second, maybe we don't have all the answers. And I think that's starting to happen now with, when I was a kid, you go to the doctor and whatever they said was gospel. People are now starting to question things that I think we've seen in enough times now where things get reversed, where they say, here do this or take this or this is perfectly safe. And then 10 years later, like oops, it gives you cancer. I have a client right now that she's 87 years old and she doesn't sleep. She can't sleep. She sleeps maybe one or two hours a night and her husband was a GP. I don't know, he might even specialize in something else but I told her, you might wanna try talking to a naturopath or an osteopath or a holistic doctor or somebody that might be able to try something new because the doctor that she goes to gives her pills, sleeping pills. And she walks around like a zombie all day long. You see it like just her eyes. I just feel so bad for her because she has, her brain function is so minimal now. Physically, she's just deteriorating and she is not taking any other alternative routes to figure out how to solve this problem. And it's so frustrating. And I try to, I said, hey, do you want me to introduce you to anybody? Because I've interviewed a bunch of different naturopaths and osteopaths and holistic doctors and just alternative doctors on my show. And her husband said that they're quacks. Yeah, well, this generation is starting to change a little bit, I think. I mean, she's 87. So obviously she's still, she's part of that other generation. Right. Well, I mean, back then doctors were it. I mean, you know, especially if you're around here, I mean, I'm sure if you were another, if you maybe Eastern, like you were in China or other countries with long histories of different types of medicine, but in America, like the history of medicine was pretty bad up until modern medicine started kind of taking over. You said you had a theory as to why you think it started to come to surface. I think that, well, obviously the internet is a big thing, but I think the internet can be very overwhelming for a lot of people. It's just like it's a fire hose of information when you search anything. I think that, you know, and I tie it back to, I think podcasting is one big one. I think that people can choose their source. And if you stay, if you stick with one specific person, you know, like Mind Pump or Open Sky Fitness podcast, like if you stick with one person, you can really gather a lot of information from different avenues and have it filter through the brain of those people who seem to be really wanting to make a change, not just for themselves, but for their audience and their clients. But I think it's interesting because I think that Paleo was a big needle mover in that. And I think the thing that brought Paleo to the table was the CrossFit world. And it's like, if there's anything that CrossFit did bring to us, it was really, it was almost, it was Paleo because it was just like VHS versus beta or Blu-ray versus what was the high def, right? Porn industry decided both of those. But you know, but I think, but CrossFit decided Paleo versus his own diet and Paleo really just took over. And now we have this, now we're all thinking about things in a more of an evolutionary standpoint. We didn't think about it like that before. We really didn't. We didn't think about nutrition from like, I think I heard you mentioned on a show recently, but I talk about this all the time. Whenever somebody says, do you think I should, do you think, well, it was, you know, do you think the American Heart Association recently did that study, right? That they mentioned on USA Today about the coconut oil, and does it seem, when they recommend corn oil and soybean oil over coconut oil, does that seem right? I mean, just from like a natural standpoint, you can literally squeeze a coconut with like a lemon press and get oil out of it. You can't do that with corn and soy. It makes no sense that from mother nature wouldn't provide what we needed to be healthy. So if we're, if we think about it, we start to think about things from an evolutionary standpoint, were we able to get our hands on this? Now obviously food and all that stuff has changed over the decades and the centuries, but were we able to get our hands on these foods generations ago? And for a lot of the crap that we're eating now, we don't, but they're touted as being healthy, as being heart healthy or a better option, which is saddening to me. And the same approach can be made with exercise, the evolutionary model where we look at specific forms of exercise, and we know how to train for particular types of performance, but we also know that the more specialized you get with your training, the more extreme it becomes with its goal, whether it's extreme endurance or extreme strength even, which are on both sides of the spectrum, they both have their problems because they're both so extreme. And evolutionarily speaking, we probably did all of it. We probably lifted heavy shit when we needed to. That's right. We definitely walked and maybe ran for long distances when we needed to. Omnivores, omniexercisers. Yeah, exactly. Come up with a name for that. Exactly. And when you approach fitness that way, you find your body seems to work best at it. The big thing with fitness that I think needs to change that we talk about all the time, and I don't know how it's gonna change is this, it's so centrally focused on appearance and the cosmetic that it really makes the right, it makes it difficult to deliver the right information. And the irony of that is when you start to train for most people now, of course, I'm not talking about extreme, like if you're bodybuilding or you're for it, but for most people, if they went from a health standpoint and wellness standpoint, they would actually look the way they're trying to look while they're training specifically for just appearance. It'd be a byproduct. It's a side effect. It's an absolute side effect. And you were talking about that, you were talking about how training people can be difficult sometimes because of that. It's true because I live in LA. That is the mecca, the epicenter of vanity. So people don't train there because they wanna get healthy. They train there because they wanna look a certain way. And if you can't provide that to them, they're gonna find somebody else who can. There's lots of trainers in Los Angeles are gonna give you steroids if you ask for it. There's lots of trainers in LA that are gonna tell you to cut out. Lots of cosmetic surgeons. Yeah, lots of cosmetic, I mean, it's ridiculous. I have clients, multiple who ask me about liposuction or something like that. And it's just for like little things, I just wanna get rid of that little extra something. I have a trainer that walked up to me the other day and says my client's asking me about getting lipo back here. And he knows that I do a podcast and he knows I do a lot of interviews so he kinda comes to me with random questions like that. And he's like, what do you think a liposuction from behind the arm? I was like, great, she'll never have fat behind her arms again, but it'll go somewhere else because she's not gonna change anything about her diet. This woman just wants a quick fix. You know, I got a story about that. I had a client years ago who came to me and we did an assessment and then she wanted a body fat test. Yeah, we've all had these, dude. And I'm testing her and I'm doing the classic, you know, the points with bicep, triceps, up scapula. I see where this is going. And I'm testing her and I test her bicep and for those of you who aren't trainers, every time you test someone's arm, bicep and tricep, the tricep is gonna measure higher. It's just we store more body fat back there, especially if you're a woman. I've never encountered a person where the fat measurement. When you wave, right? Yeah. Where the fat measurement on the bicep is higher than the tricep. And if anything, at most they're close. They're close. But it's not like. It's like a seven and a five or something. Yeah, so I test her and she was, you know, she wanted to lose about 40 pounds so she was overweight. So I test her bicep. Her bicep was like five times higher in measurement for body fat than the back of her arm. And I kind of knew that when I looked at her because it just something didn't look right about her arm. So I tested her and right away I said, have you had liposuction on the back of your arm? She thought I was a wizard. She looked at me like, what? How do you know that? Of course I play it up. And I'm like, well, you know, I've been doing this for so long. I can tell things about the body that we need to work on or whatever. But no, it's like, listen. You should be in a carnival fair or something. I tested your bicep's fat and your tricep isn't. That's weird. You walk out with like a stuffed animal. You're like, you know, I don't think, and I think that's such, it's actually a good story because I think we've all probably had multiple clients with this. I remember the first time I encountered it when I was really young. Man, first client that ever went and decided they were going to do that. And she went and did lipos, tummy tuck, whatever. And she ended up gaining the 60 plus pounds back. And now it just put on a weirder shape. Like she looked, she looked better. It's like SpongeBob. She was like normal fat. Yeah, exactly. Then you get like this oddly fact that if you don't change the root cause of how you got fat or how you got to that point, if you don't change that, it's gonna come back. And now it's gonna come back disproportionate. I had a guy who he was, when I finally got to him, he was all like sutured up. Like he had all the scars because he had had liposuction and then he had to have all the skin removed cause he was like 350 pounds when he was coming down. But he didn't change his diet. And I tried to talk to him about diet but he just wanted to do the workouts. And it was a complete kind of like mental fuck to try to train this guy. And but he kept, he didn't gain any weight when we were working together. Actually lost a few pounds, which was fine. But all of his weight was in his legs and his ass. He literally looked like he had like a woman's body. It was all down, like he didn't gain it in his belly at all, he had a flat belly, which is really odd when you see a guy that's slightly overweight and it's all in his ass. People don't, that's, you know, this is a great topic because with liposuction. Oh, we reached it. No, you gotta realize like, of course people store body fat and you know, you can get fatter and most people wanna be leaner. But there is a male way of storing body fat and there's a female way of storing body fat. For the most part, every once in a while you'll see, you know, outliers. But for the most part, men will store around their midsection or, you know, their love handles, women store it in their lower body, their thighs, back of their arms and their breasts. And if you gain weight and you're a woman and you change that or you're a man and you change that, you're better off not because then not only now are you heavier but just something just doesn't look right. There was another guy at a gym that I managed and I talked to him about it, actually asked him about it and luckily he was cool to talk about it but he came in, he was a lean guy working out and then he started gaining weight and he gained weight and it was all in his chest, neck and upper body. So he looked very strange at this fat, like neck and face kind of area. And I remember thinking like, is he on like some kind of weird medication or I couldn't figure it out? You know what I'm saying? There's something here. I went and talked to him about it and he told me, no, he got all the fat from his midsection removed. So then when he went and gained it, he stored it in this kind of strange, you know. You know what you gotta do? You gotta get lipo in every part of your body except for where your muscles would be. So you just look like, so you have like these tremendous biceps and this like this chest that sticks out but it's just all fat. So you just have to strategically place your lipo suction. Yeah, exactly. I think that would be the smartest thing to do. Oh man. So what are some of the things that you did as early on as a trainer that you look back and go, what the hell was I doing? Oh, well, like just... You gotta rat yourself out here. Yeah, I know. I think taking people through like plyometric moves, power moves way early, you know, people that didn't have the stability to do stuff like that was probably my biggest mistake. And I, you know, some of the people, you know, I don't, I hope that they didn't have like, you know, lifelong injuries but some of the people would get injured, obviously. I mean, because you're just doing stupid shit. And it's, you know, there's... That's all over TV. I mean, that's every infomercial you see them do in plyometrics to the fucking hell, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly. So I would do things like that all the time. And, but only because I think we try to, early on when you're a personal trainer, you try to have people do what you're doing, right? It's the only thing you know. The only thing you know is what you do. And then you try to kind of, you know, relay that over to the people that want to learn. Well, you know, then you realize, wow, people can't even do a squat without their legs craving in. When I learned that, that was like, I couldn't believe it. I couldn't believe how that lack of just, somebody couldn't just sit down as if there was a chair behind them. You know, no, no, no, just get your ass back, start to sit back, don't let your knees crowd in. What, you know, and their feet would cave out, their knees would cave in and they just, and they would just like, go down as if their back was sliding along a wall. It's like, what is the matter with you? You know, like, I just do it just like I did it. It's like, I'm literally showing you how to sit down. Like just imagine there's a couch right behind you, just sit, actually, you know what, here's the ball. Just sit back, you slide down the fucking wall, like some weird shit. It's like they're like, you know, like a matrix thing or something. It was really weird. Those were probably some of the problems. The first time you see that happen and you realize that as a trainer, then when you realize that, that becomes the majority. Yeah, like, holy shit, I'm the anomaly here. Right, and then there's the asshole trainers who load that on someone's back. You know, we see that all the time. There's, I mean, even at my gym, which is a one, it's just an exclusive one-on-one gym, there's, I get really kind of sad for that client because they're going to hurt themselves. Maybe not today, but it's coming. They all of those, all those patterns are there. They're all out of alignment and their trainer's just locking it in. Now, do you think that, do you think trainers should have a better screening process with the certifications and stuff? Because, I mean, we all seen that. There's a lot of trainers that are just horrible. There's great ones too, but there's quite a few that are bad. I mean, the problem is I think you should, I think most people, the way they get their trainers by referral, so I think that for most people you should definitely talk to the people that have had that person as a trainer and don't go to someone who hasn't, because look, even a shitty trainer can have somebody lose 100 pounds. I was a shitty trainer when I first started and my client lost 100 pounds, doesn't mean that I can't help them. Good point. Right, so it's like, so I had to learn that process, but you want to find people that you look at and you go, okay, that person moves really well and then they also have a trainer and the best thing to do is go on your social media, ask for people to make a recommendation and see if they have trainers in your area and then test them. Go out and try that trainer out. If you're, I always give a first session for free because I know that the guy's gonna stay with me. I have no doubt that they're gonna train with me for the first time and then they're gonna be like, okay, when do we start? A big red flag is if you go to a trainer the first time they don't even do an assessment. You'd be surprised how many people show up and the first time they go to a trainer takes them right through a workout. Yeah, exactly. Like you don't even take them for some kind of squat assessment or any and just to see how they move, just to see how they walk if there's any kind of misalignment. Like taking your car to the mechanic and he goes, whoa, whoa, whoa, don't tell me. Yeah. I'm gonna fix your car. We're gonna do donuts. Someone first. Someone rip out this engine. Let's get this thing going. I just need a smog. I don't know why you guys. Dude, I gotta ask you being in LA, like with all these like celebrities and being in the sort of haven for all this stuff. Like what's the craziest sort of fad you've seen coming in that you've had to like, you know, describe like why it's so stupid to your client. Oh my God. I mean, especially early on in the podcast, I just get those questions all the time. And that's a really fucking tough question because there's just so much shit out there. Yeah. I think they all started there too. I think like the HCG diet started there. The M Theory or whatever. I had that one we read about. Oh, you just eat mushrooms? Yeah, you just eat mushrooms. The magical mushrooms. No, no, no. It wasn't those magical mushrooms. Because that might actually work. I had a client on a show that was doing the HED diet with and it's just a low calorie. I mean, you're 500 calories a day. 500 calories, ridiculous calories and the guy dropped all this weight and he's going to this doctor obviously but that was, I mean, that's some of the craziest shit. These low calorie, I have another client that dropped, she dropped like 60 pounds on another 800 calorie diet where the doctor was giving her these, I don't even know what they were. They look like these brown kind of chalky pieces of cracker that she was supposed to eat as her like carbohydrate source and fiber source. It was disgusting. And bullion cubes. That was one thing that, every meal delivery, you would get this, electrolyte. You know what, it looked like shredded wheat but burnt and flattened out like the size of a graham, like the size of a graham cracker and two bullion cubes. You know why you lose weight on that night? Because it's fucking gross, you know what I'm saying? Hey, listen, here's what I'm not motivated. Hey, check this out, I got this diet. Basically you can eat as much as you want of these foods right here, you ready? Bullion cubes and wood pulp crackers. But you can eat them as much as you want. Go to town, go to town. I only eat two of those a day, they're fucking gross. I've lost 100 pounds, I can't figure it out. Shit like that is stuff that we see all the time there. There's, you know, you guys did a podcast episode about, I think it was the first episode that I heard of yours because Josh was on the show and he posted it and I was like, oh cool. And then I was scrolling through your episodes. Oh cool. And- I hope it wasn't one of our first. No, it was your beach body. It was the beach body one that you had talked about, not beach body, sorry. Baywatch. Baywatch. Baywatch workout. Zac Efron's workout. Zac Efron, that guy trains in my gym. No. Yeah, no joke. And I was just like, I had to listen to it because I had to hear what you guys had to say about it. Dude, do your favorite. I want you to go up to him and be like, hey, they did a whole episode about you on Minecraft. I didn't know it, like I don't want to like, look. No, I don't want to say this. I don't want to be a total dick to a guy who does it sound like- Shit checkers. Yeah, exactly. But I'll tell you this right now, like I chitchatted with him a little bit because he ended up moving to that gym right after Zac Efron was on Baywatch or that movie. So I don't know exactly what his workout programming was, but he wrote, what he did was after that, he knew that he was going to be, Buzzfeed was going to be doing this article about it. Buzzfeed came to him and said, hey, we want to do an article about Zac's workout. Can you tell us what he did? Put some together. And he's like, and it was actually really smart on his part. He goes, look, I'll take you through it. He was, he looked at the guy, he judged him and he goes, this guy's just like 20 pounds overweight. He plays ball, the writer of this article, he looks at him and he just goes, he's a baller, he works out, he plays basketball like five days a week, he works out three days a week lifting, but his nutrition is shit. So basically what he did was he gave him like a really simple workout, changed his nutrition, and the guy got ripped. I mean, in two months, in eight weeks, he got pretty ripped, but he would have gotten ripped like that if he had just stopped eating fucking, and Panda Express was just like his favorite food if you read that blog post. But he was smart on his point because then he knew Buzzfeed was coming out with this. And I think you guys read his, you were referring to his workout program, I think it might've been in bodybuilding.com or something like that, but he sold a workout program, a Baywatch workout program, and he sold at like, he sold like 60,000 of them. Shut the fuck up right now. Yeah, it's like, it was like, He sold 60,000? No, no, not 60,000, sorry, he sold in the first, in the, sorry, $60,000 worth in the first week. Oh yeah. Still. God damn it. For 100, they were $150 a piece, so you do the math. But that Buzzfeed article got over, his landing page got over a million hits, but only X amount of people bought it if you do the math, I can't math. See guys, if we were in LA, we'd be fucking this out probably. We'd be crushing in LA right now, train some celebrity and then. Seriously, but you know, I think that you're 100% right because I've interviewed Gunnar Peterson, do you guys know who that is? Right, so I interviewed him on my show and it's interesting because it's a totally different philosophy on training. You walk into Gunnar Peterson's gym, have you ever? No. Do you guys know him personally? Okay, so we can shit talk. No, I'm just kidding, we're not gonna do that. But like, you know, he, if you walk into his gym, it's toys. It's nothing but wall-to-wall toys. Everything is orange and yellow. That's his company colors. Everything gets painted orange and yellow before it enters the place. And he has like, there's one walkway. You guys have that green astroturf out there. He has that small thing maybe three feet wide going down the entire run of his studio. And everything else is machines. Machines and toys. And his philosophy, I trained with him. So I interviewed him on my show and I trained with him every Friday for like maybe two or three months. And he's an interesting guy. He's very alpha male, not kind of, not like my kind of guy. Like, you know, he's just, he's very opinionated. And I guess he can afford to be, you know? He's the celebrity trainer. He's the celebrity trainer. He's the loans trainer. He's the Kardashians trainer. He's like, he trains, like he has his facility. You literally, he has a parking lot just for his facility and it's just for his clients, right? And there's only one or two clients that work out in that 4,000 square feet facility and that's it. Just those two people. I don't think he makes any money on his, on his facility because he's just gonna, even if it's $250 an hour or $300 an hour, you still gotta pay a $20,000 or $30,000 not every month. Just on that. He just needs a brick and mortar location for, for whatever his, whatever else he's promoting. But the thing that he told me in that process was that, look, you know, these people want to know that everything that you're giving them is the best, is the newest, is the most up to date, all of that information, that's what people want. So when they get there and they're playing with these toys, just like we were talking about, like, keeping it interesting for your clients, that's what it's about in Los Angeles. It's about keeping it as interesting for your clients as possible. They're all about novelty down there. They're all about novelty. Hey, you ever worked out on this fucking machine? No, I've never even heard of that thing. Yeah, that's right. You never heard of it because only my trainer's got it. Yeah, exactly. I love that shit. They want the new, they want the car that no one has, they want the shirt that no one has, they want the shoes that no one has, they want the trainer that has the machines that nobody fucking has. That's Los Angeles. Yeah, you know what? That's been happening for a little while in LA. I wonder if you can go in there now and open up like a cement floor. Like rusted wings. Yeah, like kettle bells and old barbells. Like Mark Bell, like what those guys have up there. Yeah, you know, you have a couple rings and just be like, I'm taking it back to the old school. And it's like gymnasium, you know, on the bottom run. Basically that's CrossFit, but you can't get away with that. Like one, if an individual client walked into, like if I had my gym and it looked like a CrossFit box, the client would walk in there and go, what the fuck is this? Like I'm out of here. Yeah, where's the shower? Where's the hammer strength machine? You know, like they would, they want all those things. So they wouldn't, I mean. I don't know, I think you can make it cool, you know what I mean? I think that's what in your head, that's what you want. You know what, I walk into your facility here and this is the facility that I would create. Like actually I had a graphic designer, a friend of mine, a girl who was in my boot camp when I was doing that back in the day and she would do all of my graphic design for free. She designed my logos, she designed my t-shirts, all that kind of shit. She was awesome. And so I had her design my gym because my idea was open sky fitness. I was gonna have, my gym was gonna be a garage, an abandoned garage that was like this L-shaped garage on the corner of the street, you know? And the outside was gonna be all ash door turf and then inside we would keep all the machines and it would be, there would be bleaches on one side like it was a football stadium. We would run bleaches, it would be like this cool outdoor indoor kind of feel. I like it. But you know, and sled poles and pushes and shit like that and then, you know, my wife does gyro tonic so we would have a section for gyro tonic. I don't know if you guys are familiar with that. I don't even know what that is. Yeah, we have to get a sauce. Yeah, gyro tonic is like a cross between Pilates and yoga and it's all machine-based. There's gyro tonic and there's gyro kinesis. Gyro kinesis is like matte Pilates, what Pilates is. And then gyro tonic is like, you know how Pilates, they have that reformer. So gyro tonic has, they have the reformer but gyro tonic has five different machines. Okay, interesting. They have, you gotta look it up. It actually looks like this torture device thing. It's all cables and stuff. It's been a while, there's just something new. It's been around for, no, for like probably 15, 20 years. Oh, wow, okay. And it's been, you know. I'm surprised I've never heard, okay, interesting. Well, I could tell you why it's not, nobody has ever heard of it. It's because the guy, Julian, who owns it, he's in Germany. He has such a short leash on everybody that becomes a gyro tonic instructor. You cannot post videos. You're not allowed to. Really? It's trademarked. You cannot post videos. It's an interesting marking strategy. It really is, but it's only, if you go, it's only in major cities or maybe, you might be able to find one here in San Jose. You'll find a couple in San Francisco, obviously. Carmel, like very wealthy areas. We'll have them where people have enough money to get certified. You want to keep it exclusive. To get certified costs $10,000. Just to get started. And the way that my wife found it was she was dancing with the Graham Company, and I don't know if you guys in the dance world at all, but Graham Company is one of the premier. I was a professional dancer. I can tell. So I just, by the way, you move. The Graham Company was probably one of the premier modern dance companies in New York. In the world, I should say. And that's what they did. Gyarotonic is what they did in the off season to stay limber, strong, lean. Interesting. And that's how she fell in love with it. Well, that's why she got into that, especially being the novelty of an LA. That's like, it's such a hook for that community, for sure. But it's hard to branch out. Like, you've never heard of it. You guys have never heard of Gyarotonic. And now maybe with your, you know, with your millions and millions of listeners that you guys do have, you know, that's, now everybody's going to hear a little bit about it. But like, you just pissed off the owner. See, what I would do is I'd get certified, I'd learn it, and then I'd do something a little different and then do my YouTube videos and you know what I'm saying? Again, they would, they would salatonic. Sue, they would sue the shit out of you. That's really fucking weird. Good luck, man. Posted on YouTube that shit goes viral. Yeah. I win. So, so your podcast was after your gym. Did you original, or after you became a trainer? Right. Did you start the podcast to promote your business, basically? Is that why it's the same name? Well, originally I wanted to do YouTube. And my buddy who's also a filmmaker, he worked for How I Met Your Mother, which I was mentioning to you guys earlier. He worked for How I Met Your Mother and I said, he's a great videographer and, you know, I guess that's not what you call him, DP, whatever, fuck. You, like a video director or whatever. So, he's, his name's Alec Lev, give him a shout out, just a kiss. But he, I asked him, I said, would you be willing to do my YouTube videos? Cause he had helped me, I auditioned for some workout video, TV show or something like that and he helped me shoot that video. I said, hey man, would you help me make YouTube videos and just create content? Because it's like one of the best ways to drive traffic. He goes, you know what? It's a pain in the ass to do videos. Let's, I have all the podcasting equipment. Let's do that and we'll create our, we'll create our content that way and we'll partner up and do it. So he was working at How I Met Your Mother at Fox Studios. I went there with him, my buddy Jeff Meacham was also the co-host of my show and we started that together like car talk for fitness. I love how you guys are the Howard Stearns of fitness, right? But that was, we were car talk for fitness. So we were guys that were just like trying to solve, people would call and we would try to solve their problems. But logistically Doug, let me ask you this question. If you have a podcast like this and you have to have three different people call in and everybody in the room be in the room at the same time, call in live and ask questions. Logistically that's the biggest pain in the ass. I can only imagine. I don't know about that. It's ridiculous. Well we've done one off before just by letting somebody who's like gone through like the maps program because we actually talked about doing this on a regular and it's a headache just to do it with one person calling in so I can't imagine. Oh yeah. I mean most of my stuff, you know, I'm not, my podcast is not as big as yours. So, but I do get some really great names on my show which is pretty awesome. And I really, I know that I have a good show. I know that I do a really good interview. So I have that but I can't get Mark Sisson to come to my house. I can't get Dr. Perlmutter to come to my house. Or people that are in New York or wherever flying in. So I can't do that. But I do get some great people do come to my house and I can really run that. But otherwise it's really hard to kind of reach the masses. Wow, so you wanted to do this, you wanted to start at YouTube and four years ago when you started the podcast? Yeah. So you were, hold on a second. I'm about to crap you out here. Go ahead. I know I'm going to. I'm about to crap you out. I'm about to crap you out. Had you started YouTube four years ago. I would have killed. Holy shit. Because like the fitness people on YouTube. Michael Chang. Do you guys remember when you found out about YouTube? It was like 2006. My buddy goes, hey man, you can see any episode of any TV show on this new thing called YouTube. And I'm like, what the fuck are you talking about? Everything that you could ever want to watch is on there. And I was just like, what the, I don't get it man. I just don't get it. I mean, everybody who did fitness on YouTube when it kind of first started taking off like five years ago, even, they're all massive now just because they were the only ones. Like what's his name? Six pack abs dude. Michael Chang. Yeah. That was longer though. Those guys. They were on there longer. This is 10 years. It's definitely, we're talking 2006, 2007. Like that's when YouTube really just started rolling. I was way after the game. Like I was thinking, I wasn't, I was no pioneer who was like, you know what? YouTube. You know, I was no pioneer. I was the guy who. You'd already seen guys like him. Guys were doing it. And I was trying to figure out how to kind of, how to mirror that. Yeah. Yeah. But still, still would have been a good thing. Are you doing it right now? Are you messing with much of it? No, I mean, I'm potentially going to be repurposing some Facebook live videos. One of the things that we do on our show is we, we try to keep our audience really intimate, right? And so what we do is we, we offer a Facebook group. Do you guys have, you have a Facebook group, but it's only for people who are doing maps. Is that right? No, it's that we have a forum that people enroll in and it doesn't matter what you're following. A lot of them do follow maps, but it's a fitness forum so they can ask questions. We have a lot of trainers, doctors, you know, we're on there. We created, it started off literally the three of us with two people and we fostered this community where, and we all get on there. So we're very active on it. And so what's neat is that when we first were on it, we were on it a lot and we were helping all three, five, 10, 15 people that were on there, they were able to do videos of themselves squatting over in India, over here in Florida, over wherever. And we could critique their squat. We could give them coaching tips. And it really, Sal was probably the best at this for sure. This is his baby in the business. He's continued to foster that community to the point where now we have these incredible doctors, PTs, personal trainers that are in that community. Answering questions. Now they're all, now they're just naturally helping each other. Now you guys are a little more hands off. You don't have to be in there because there are people at just a slightly, if not more. Sal's still in there fucking multiple times a day. Every time Sal's taking a dump, he's just. Yeah, yeah, he's. That's how you know. Even the Lord's work. That's how you know I'm pooping. Yeah, so he's. He's on the floor. That's it. Yeah. Sal's answering. He's very regular. You know what I was just thinking. Three times a day. And I don't know, I don't know how much your listeners or fans would appreciate this. I know ours do because we actually do talk about business and this is kind of a unique opportunity that we can get in this. We openly are okay discussing. We share a lot of our personal business and how we make money and what we're doing with our audience. So if you wanna go that direction where we talk about some of those things, like we're open to discussing that shit. Yeah, I mean, I would love to because that's if you are an online entrepreneur, somebody who's trying to make a business out of something online, whatever it is, it's such a, it can be a very daunting task. There's so many different aspects of it that are overwhelming, especially for a guy like me. Now I know you guys have a team, which is great. And that's really smart. And maybe I'm a little more of a solo trineur or whatever the fuck you call it, right? I'm just like, I'm usually by myself and maybe that's not a good thing. But yes, it's really interesting to me to find out how people do it and how they structure it. Cause the Open Sky Fitness podcast, going kind of back to the earlier question was like I started it because I wanted to create content. I wanted to have a connection to an audience. And for the longest time, I didn't even try to, I was giving away free downloads, but in doing some kind of lead generation through that. But I'd also be doing, like I started creating landing pages and all that crap. And that was probably for the first year or two. And then I was like, this is, I don't have a real connection because you could send out email blasts, but the response is the open rates usually like anywhere from 20 to 25%. And then the actual people who click on things is even lower than that. So really the people that are interacting with you through your email list is minimal. So I knew that I needed to open up something new, which is one of the reasons why I started the Open Sky Fitness podcast group. And that is an amazing community because now, which I think and you guys can maybe chime in on this is when you know, when you can have a direct access to your audience, then you can ask them what they want. Until then, you're just kind of, taking shots in the dark. You're hoping to God that maybe what you're doing is what these people are gonna wanna buy or whatever. So that's been my first like step. And I'm trying to now- So how long have you had the group for? So, almost a year. Almost a year, excellent. Are you letting it get to a certain size? Well, I mean, I'm trying to grow. I mean, obviously I would love to grow it as much as possible. Right now, we do have a really great, we have it about 550. So it's not, it's just free. I'm sure. Yeah, mine's free. So it's, yeah, it's totally free to get into it. It's about, I think you guys have, I'm in one of your forums. I think there's only like around 2,000 people in there. That must be the private forum, right? Yeah, that's the private forum. Gotcha. Oh, I don't know you're on there, cool. Well, I actually, I requested to join and then I think it was Katrina or somebody said, did you buy in? And I was like, oh no, no, I'm sorry. I just, I saw this was a mine pump forum because I'm coming on the show and I want to see what people are talking about. And then she's like, oh, Sal said it's cool, you can come in. So like, and then I was in. So now I was, I'm in that forum, but you know. You're getting all the dirt on us now. Yeah, exactly. That's right. I'm backdoor on my way in. That's where you post all the new pics. I know. I save it for the privates. Yeah, so we weren't kidding when you said you'd do porn. I wasn't. So I'm trying, I mean, so I'm at the very early stages and, you know, this is tough because it is, my wife is on the show with me, but I, but I'm, you know, and not trying to take anything away from me. Like I'm, all of this is self-generated. Like all the information that we're trying to put out, we every single week, we're trying to figure out what people want to know. We asked our audience, what do you guys want to know? And we dive in. We don't know everything. I think that any podcast or any like, any professional that tells you that they know all the answers, they got their heads so far up their ass, they don't know which way's up. You know, so we do, we dig in, we start doing the research based on a lot of the philosophies that we've learned over time. And that's basically our, our kind of, our focus. But we haven't yet figured out like the big, like you guys have maps, right? You guys have, I don't know how, how many programs is it all together? Do you know? We have quite a few. We have maps, anabolic, aesthetic. We have performance. We have prime, prime pro, which is coming out maps anywhere. And I think that's all of them, right? Did I name them all? Six. That's six. And then we also have guides. We have a fasting nutrition guide. We have a blood occlusion training guide. And what are the, oh, the no BS six pack formula. That's a core workout program that I came up with a long time ago. So we've got quite a few things. The thing about trying to make a living out of fitness besides the brick and mortar way, which would be either owning a gym or working in a gym or working, you know, as a trainer is to sell supplements. Unfortunately, that's the big way to do it. But based on your philosophy on nutrition, it'd be difficult for you to do that because you've already talked so much about, and you've, you know. I fucked myself. You, well, yeah. We talk about this all the time. You could. I mean, you can say it all out. You can literally use the same words. You're not totally fucked. Because I mean, I mean, it's harder for us. Let's put it that way. It's a lot harder for guys like us that are going this route. But we also agree. It's a longer road, but it's worth it. Here's the thing. When we started Mind Pump, we looked at the, because we had so much experience in the industry. I mean, I've been a professional in fitness for 20 years. Been a fan of fitness for even longer. I've like really, really deep. And we started seeing some trends. When we first started Mind Pump, we had this conversation. We were actually in Adam's living room. And we were talking about the direction of the fitness industry. And I had brought up a point where I said, you know, you know, four years ago, if you went into Safeway, there wasn't an organic section. And now there is. Actually, it's in every grocery store. If you look at the market and the way it's shifting, you're starting to see the big companies that Coca-Cola purchased these organic, kind of healthy companies because they're hedging their bets because, and that's what you want to do. When you look at the market, it's always a good idea to look at the big players because they spend all the money trying to predict what's about to happen. And usually where they start to invest is a pretty good indicator of where the market's going to go. And we'd also seen this as trainers. And one thing that we realized that was sorely lacking in fitness, sorely lacking, and it's starting to come up a little bit is the lack of integrity. There's just no, there was no integrity in fitness. People would sell anything to make a dollar and the real solid good advice just wasn't coming out because it wasn't making anybody money. But like all markets, at some point you get a backlash and all the three of us sat down and we predicted it. We said, look, social media is, it's like air. And that air is gonna wash out all the bullshit. It's like sunlight coming through because with social media, it's harder to be fake. The Photoshoppers and the bullshit before and afters are gonna start getting called out, which we're seeing now, we've seen it already. People now the supplement market has been big enough, long enough to where people are starting to say, wait a minute, this is kind of bullshit. There's all these reports coming out of these independent companies coming in and testing supplements and finding they actually have nothing. There's a huge percentage of them that have nothing in them like what the label says or even some have like toxic things in them. And we saw this and we said, okay. And not to mention we're integrity based people. Like we couldn't bullshit anyway, even if you tried. Even if we tried to really lie and bullshit, the truth is gonna come out because that's just how we talk. So we knew this, we sat down, we said, okay, we're gonna hedge, we're gonna bet that the market's gonna take this big change in direction. We're gonna try and spearhead it. We're gonna be honest. We're gonna have lots of integrity. We're so honest, we're gonna be raw about it. And we're not gonna make any money in the beginning because no one's gonna wanna pay us since we're gonna speak poorly about all these products. But once we build an audience, once you have an audience, then you can start to figure it out. And that's exactly what we did. We started Mind Pump and for an entire year, we didn't sell a single thing. Well, and let's talk about that. How important that piece right there. Cause this is the, I think where most people make a mistake is they get so hung up on how they're gonna make money that they don't spend the real time in building the community. Building the community is everything. If you don't have the right message, you don't have more than five people listening to you or giving two shits about what you have to say, I don't give a fuck how great your product is or how great your idea is. It ain't, you're not gonna make any real money off it. You're certainly not gonna make a living off of it. So I think a lot of people I see that try and create online businesses, they get so caught up in, you know, how I'm gonna make this much money and I needed this. I assume there'll be a demand there. We haven't even vetted that yet or even gone through like, oh, what is my audience? What does it look like? Right, and here, and this is some full disclosure on a current thing that we're going through right now. We just had this topic. In fact, you can see it on our whiteboard right now, the July focus and the July focus for us is to work back in the business. We've gotten so caught up in all the moving parts in this business and oh, growing this and flying here and doing that. It's like, man, when was the last time we worked in the business and what we did the things that we had to do to grow it to this point. And so everything that we're creating and we're building this month is giving back to our audience. Nothing in return, not making any money. How do we enhance this process for those that are already in our community now and for those in the future that are gonna be coming into the community? And I think just not enough entrepreneurs have that mindset. They're so focused on how they're gonna make money and how the next guy is doing it and trying to mimic what they're doing versus, like, do you have a message that anyone gives two shits about? It's like that quote, right? Nobody cares how much you know until they know how much you care. And, you know, when I focus on that piece of the business first, then the other part, and you said it really well, which I think is a smart place for you right now, which is you're building this private form and community. That's a perfect place to ask those people what they need, right? Yeah, that's what we do. And actually, I post like a poll in there that asks, excuse me, you don't wanna ask you, like what is the major thing that you're struggling with right now? You know, what are your obstacles? If you were to put a finger on the one thing that you really are struggling with that's holding you back from achieving whatever it is, the body weight that you wanna be, the physical, the level of physical fitness that you wanna reach, what is that thing that's holding you back? And they give you all the answers. I mean, literally do. Like, I'll name like, maybe I'll say, maybe my problem is, I'm not motivated. Maybe my problem is lack of knowledge. Maybe my problem is this. And then they'll fill in. They'll just like fill in that poll. And then after that, I follow up, great. Okay guys, look, the top two ones where you had no willpower, you had no lack, you felt like you had a lack of knowledge. Okay, let's break this down a little more. If you feel like you have a lack of knowledge, is that about nutrition? Is that about your fitness? Is that about like, how to time manage? Is it like, what is it? And then they start to, and then you can really start narrowing down those things. The thing that I think I struggle with business wise is for one, doing too many fucking things. I do way too much trying to manage everything. But is not necessarily picking the one thing that is going to be the biggest needle mover. And one of the things that I really love to do over the last 10 years, I love working one-on-one with people. That's a big thing for me. Not necessarily one-on-one with building up my clients. I've done that, I'm fine with that. Like if I wanted to live that lifestyle for the rest of my life, I could train clients until I'm 65 years old. I know guys that do that. That seems like that would totally suck. But if I wanted to, I could. And I could probably do fine. But what I wanna do is I wanna have, I wanna reach a broader spectrum. I wanna reach people that, so the way that I look at it is like, I'm the in-between between a guy that's sitting on the couch that's 300 pounds, and then the guy who starts doing the maps program. Like I wanna be the in-between. I wanna be the guy who gets you off the couch, gets you to just take a fucking walk around the block every day. Gets you to do it like drinking enough water every single day. Gets you actually eating some vegetables and potentially helping you kind of wean off of all the sugar and all the things, processed food that's in your diet. I wanna be that guy. And then they can go and move on to something a little more advanced if they choose to. Well, you're talking about the most important aspect of fitness, which is the psychological piece. It's not even close, the information piece. Information's very important, yes. But the psychology behind it is far more important. As, I mean, training as many people as I have, I would be very successful when I understood that part. When I was focused on more on what we're doing and how we're eating and that's it, I was not nearly as successful. Once I really figured out the psychological piece, then I had clients who never worked out before would hire me and would train with me for 10 years, 12 years, and now I don't train them anymore. I still stay in contact with them and guess what they're still doing? They're still working out. And I was able to make those massive changes. One of the big shifts for me in that realm was really understanding that it wasn't about hitting a target because fitness is so, it's so focused on goals, on a specific goal, lose 30 pounds, gain 20 pounds on my bench press, run faster, build my biceps, whatever, that we forget that really, if you really wanna be successful in fitness, you have to do it consistently. That means you gotta do it all the time. And you gotta do it for long periods of time. It has to become a part of your life. And the only way that's gonna happen is when you stop focusing on the fact that it's not about goals, it's about enjoying the process. That's really about it. It's about the process. Once you seek out the process, every day I seek out my workout, every day I seek out foods that feel good to eat. I've made those connections. Now, what are goals? I lose the weight, it just happens. I build the muscle, it just happens. It's about enjoying that process. And when you look at studies on populations of people that live very long, where you see lots of centarians, this is exactly what they do. It's just the old man that's 110 years old, the reason why he's lived so long isn't because his goal was to lose 30 pounds and get stronger. It's because every day I walk up that hill over there that I do that every morning and I milk this goat or whatever, and then I go down to the beach and I go fishing for a little bit and then I meet with my family and we have this meal from the garden and it's just what I do every day and I love it. That's really the key. And I don't, you can definitely make that impact on people one on one, but like you, we share that sentiment. We wanna be able to share that to a lot of people, make a big impact. Really the audience we love talking to the most are other trainers. We like talking to other trainers because if we can influence those trainers, we know that they're gonna influence, absolutely. Yeah, cause it's just mushrooms out from there. I have on my wall right behind my computer. It says the process is the result. And I say it on my show probably every, maybe every third episode. I just remind everybody, you have to be in on this process because if you're not focusing on the process, then you're just, and you're only focusing on the goal, then you're missing the entire point. And there's also, I did an episode specifically about goals versus intentions. And there's a really good example I use. It's like, you can have the goal to get to the top of the hill. Go for that hike that day to get to the top of the hill, right? That's your goal. Very clear. It's easy to see, but if your intention is to also experience life as it's happening, stopping and smelling the roses, stopping and actually maybe having a conversation on that hike, then that's a life to live, right? If your intention is to enjoy the process, then that makes getting to the goal that much more enjoyable. But if your only thing, if your only thing to focus on is that getting to the top of the hill and you put the blinders on, you are gonna be a miserable person, miserable person inside and out. And you're not gonna be any fun to be around with your friends, and you're not gonna be any fun to be around with your family. And you're basically gonna eventually hate yourself. And that's just the reality of it. Yeah, we have a horrible success rate in fitness. It's very, very bad. People don't stick to it. We're not solving the health problems. Overall, you guys aren't talking about yourself. No, no, I'm talking about- Confession time here. Full transparency. No, I'm talking about just the fitness industry just does a very, we, and I say we because we're part of it, we don't do a good job. I mean, we have not been the answer to the obesity and diabetes epidemic. We have not been the answer to any of the ailments that we're starting to get. The penetration into the market, fitness has penetrated more and more of the market, but it has not made a substantial difference. People view exercise in the wrong way. And nutrition in the wrong way. And we hope to change that. We really hope to make it something that, I mean, how great would it be if that was a part of the culture? You know what I mean? Well, I mean, I think it slowly is. I think you said that earlier. I think it's starting to really be ingrained, especially this millennial generation. These fuckers don't like, they won't eat anything that's not organic, not whole food. There's some of them that do, they do kind of fall off track, but I mean, some of the most obsessed people about their health are the millennials. But it's great. I mean, it's so cool because they're getting so technical about how they solve their problems and they're becoming so scientific. They break it down. Like, that's the, you gotta look at yourself as like being a little scientist and you are that test subject. And you test it out. And one, on yourself. You are that person that is going to, and people are doing that now, which is so fucking cool. Just the most positive millennial reference ever. Besides, it's like they're total assholes. Yeah. You're like, wow. All right. Oh, sorry. Yeah, Jordy's happy. We got Jordy over there. But you know, I think it's true and I think that they are that next generation. So it's, we are losing that, my parents, not good. Not, my dad's had multiple heart attacks, multiple strokes, lung cancer. He's got a hard time getting around. My grandmother's got dementia. My mom basically has chronic pain in her back and sciatic down her leg. And I can't help them. They, you know, I try. It's one of the reasons probably I do what I do because I just felt like I could not get through to them. You know, and they don't look at me as the expert. They look at me as the son, you know? So I give them information and they just, they just go, oh, okay. They probably think you're weird, right? When you go over to eat dinner and you know, Mom, I can't have that. Oh yeah? You're on that special diet. Well, you know, it's funny cause we, like I said, we eat mostly paleo. Just, and what I mean by that is I'm not, we're not hardcore paleo, but we're, it's mostly meat and vegetables. And that's basically our diet. We don't have chips in the house. We don't have, you know, like all that crap, bread in the house and stuff like that. That's just not what we do. And so my parents came and visited me for about a week. And I said, look, I'm cooking for you guys. I love to cook. It's one of my things. I'm a huge cook. I love it. And I said, I'm cooking for you guys. Every night I'll cook dinner for you guys. But, you know, we're not serving bread. We're not serving pasta. We're not doing that stuff. I said, you're gonna eat fine. You're never gonna be hungry. You're gonna, the food's gonna be delicious, but- They left after two days. I don't know where they went. No, but by the end, my dad's mental clarity was significantly better. His energy levels were significantly better. By the end of the vacation, they said, I can't believe how good we feel. Like they didn't feel like they went on vacation. They felt like they went to a spa. Isn't that crazy that it blows people's minds? Yeah. And then you tell them like, what do you think? Like this is what you eat food every day. It literally becomes a part of you. Of course it's gonna have an impact on how you feel. Yeah, exactly. So they went home and she's like, my mom's like, what was I eating? Tell me what I was eating. I just wanna know what should I be doing? I was like, mom, it's really simple. Just focus on eating meats. Don't even worry about what kinds of meat. Just focus on meats and fish and vegetables. And if you wanna have some starchy vegetables in there, potatoes and stuff, that's totally fine. Just don't make it starchy vegetables and meat. Just have a pretty, half of that plate's green. And so they did that for a couple of months and they felt really good and then they started slipping back into their habits. It's like you can't really, not that you can't teach an old dog new trips, but as long as you're not making it, like you said, if it's not a part of the process, right? They were like, my mom was looking for the result. This is also what we talk about where we try and connect people and getting more connected with their relationship with food, their relationship with exercise and their relationship with themself. And a part of that process is actually learning to accept and understand that there's a lot of things that have been imprinted in us since we were five, six, seven years old. I mean, I definitely have a sweet tooth and it wasn't like it didn't just come out of nowhere. Well, no, I was able to eat fucking cereal, my whole life, ice cream before bed every night. I mean, I did that for 20-something years of my life. So, and even now, that's not something at all that's ever in my freezer, but I tell you what, if I introduce it into my life real quick. You want it? Yeah, I want it. And we got to know a little debate with a buddy of ours about the science behind the addiction part of this, but you can't deny the behavioral addiction that happened. So maybe it's not something chemically I'm addicted to and we haven't got the science to for sure prove exactly that, but I'll tell you right now, there's a behavioral part that 100% I'm addicted to because for 20-something years, I allowed that to be in my diet and I'm sure my brain's connected to good times. They're having a good time. For sure, people make connections to food based on when they were kids. For sure, I can't go by. Just smells. If I smell McDonald's, McDonald's is a shitty burger, let's be honest, it's not a good burger. Depends on what time of the day and how early it is in the morning. But if I smell it, I get fond memories because when I was a kid, I'd go to work with my dad. My dad does, he's a blue collar worker and I'd help him when I was 11, 12, 13 every summer and he'd get me McDonald's. That was my thing. That was the way he would say thank you to me and I loved it. So I have this great association with McDonald's and hanging out with my dad and having this great time so when I smell it, I'm like, oh man, I want McDonald's. If I'd never been exposed to McDonald's and I went and ate a burger from there, it's shit. It's not a good burger, but I've got that association. I actually had, it's funny you talk about this Adam because this happened to me literally last night. I'm at my mom's house. So my family, old school Sicilians, I'm a first generation American and in our culture, especially my parents' generation, my grandparents' generation, one of the ways that you show love to people is you feed them, but you don't just feed them, you feed the fuck out of them. You stuff, you stuff stuff. You stuff, and that's literally how we show. Manje, manje, come on. And that's how we show love and especially to children. So if you have a child in this culture and that generation, the more you love them, the more you feed them and you're feeding them all the time, especially your grandmother, my grandmother would follow us around the house with food. I'm not even making this up. This is a true story. She would follow us around with food and would just keep just sneaking it in, in your mouth while you're playing or something. Like her job, her goal, her goal was to distract you. I'm not even making this up. Distract you with an activity. Just shove something in your mouth. Yeah, like, come on, Ethan, no, I don't want it. No, no, no, I'm full. I don't want it. Come on. You just say, come on, no, no, no, I'm full, I'm full. Oh, look at this. Play with this, look at this. Then you play with it. And then while you're playing like mindlessly, she'd sneak the food, the food right in your mouth. So I met my parents' house last night. How are you not 300 pounds? Dude, a lot of people in my family. So I met my mom's house last night and I got my kids there. And as an adult, I'm becoming more aware of some of the ways I'm connected to food and exercise. And it's in phases. And one of the last phases or one of the last or the newest ones that I'm going through right now is because I have kids, is I'm realizing how I pressure them to eat food and how I, you know, if they don't eat, I'm not loving them and I need to feed them. And, you know, I'm starting to understand, I'm starting to become aware of this whole thing. So we're at my mom's house, we're eating dinner. And, you know, my son doesn't want to eat all of his pasta. So he's sitting there, he doesn't want it anymore. He's like, I'm full. And so my mom's like, no, you have to eat it. But I'm full, you can't go on your computer then if you can't eat it. I'm back and forth with him and his grandma. And I'm sitting there and now that I'm more aware, in the past, I'd hear this and I'd be like, oh, this is great. My mom's going to get him to eat because she's a, she's gangster at that, right? She's going to get him to eat. This is good. Now I'm listening to some like, Holy fuck, like she is totally developing this poor relationship to food with my son. Like it's really bad. So I'm talking to her and I'm speaking to her in Sicilian so my son doesn't understand. I'm telling him, I said, listen, mom, I said, he doesn't want anymore. Don't let him eat anymore. Oh, he barely ate anything. I said, I understand that, but he won't starve. Well, then he can't play his computer. She's telling me this is Sicilian. I said, mom, it's not, and then my dad chimes in and my dad's like, he goes, he goes, he goes, let your mom do this. She's really good at this. She'll get him to eat. It's almost like he thought, he's thinking I'm telling my mom to not do this because I'm telling her you're trying to do it. Because I'm telling my mom, like, mom, it's okay. Like don't worry yourself. He thinks I'm like, and he's convincing me like, no, no, no, son, your mom's really good at this. Let her do her thing. So she's like, no, you have to eat a half then. She starts bargaining with him. And I'm watching this. I'm like, oh my God, like this is really fucked up. Like, you know, but she loves my kids so much. And this is how she shows love to the point where I finally said, no, he's not gonna eat anymore. And I told my son in English, I said, you can go play. Don't worry about it. And she was angry with me and I had to have a talk with her. And she's like, your kid didn't eat enough. He's gonna be, you know, this, I said, mom, listen, and I'm trying to explain this to her. So she becomes more aware of what's going on. My grandmother used to time us. We would sit there at dinner. And if we weren't eating fast enough, she'd set a timer and be like, okay, the first person to finish gets like a quarter of some shit. We fucking stuff our faces. You can't tell me that that isn't gonna influence your eating habits as an adult. It's why it becomes wired into you. So- Especially at that age. Yeah, I got a good example of that too. But it's not only like the experiences, because that was a total experience that your son was going through and you were going through with the timer. That's fucked up. But it's like, it's that experience. But then there's also the food, generational food that's being served. That's part of your community, right? If you're Italian or Sicilian, I grew up, my grandmother was 100% Italian. My mom is half Yugoslavian, half Italian. Food was huge in our house. And every Sunday, we would have spaghetti and meatballs or some kind of pasta dish. And then every Friday night during Lent, you would have pizza, right? It's very, you kind of follow those patterns. And it was meat and potatoes and bread on the table for basically every single meal. People don't realize the reason why Italians eat so much pasta and bread is because they didn't know that Italy was a poor country. When these foods were introduced, it was a very poor country and it's very cheap. You can make pasta very cheap. You can make some Alina, make your pasta, make your bread. And Italians, because Italy is a peninsula and the Mediterranean surrounded by some of the best weather to grow vegetables and fruits and whatever, they got, and there's fish, right? Because they're in the middle of the ocean. They just were very creative with this really cheap food. And so you've got all these varieties of pasta, whatever. And so people think, oh, pasta's so healthy. It's not, it was a cheap food that they adopted real quick. But it's not part of the Mediterranean cuisine or at least the traditional Mediterranean cuisine. I remember my grandmother telling me stories about prosciutto, right? So it's just sliced pieces of Italian bread with tomatoes and onions and parsley or so. I mean, basil and parsley, yeah, olive oil, right? And she's like, this was peasant food. This is what you would do with the stale bread. And now they're serving this as an appetizer when you go to an Italian place. Why do you guys think it's hard bread? Because that's a stale bread. He's a stale bread. Exactly, now they toast it and they make it a little more presentable. And they looked around like, what do we have? Fuck, we're hungry. What do we have to mold off real quick? Well, we got the stale bread and they know tomatoes grow everywhere. I got it, let's make a dish with tomatoes. Yeah, and when you're making meatballs, I mean, yeah, a binding agent is breadcrumbs, but my grandmother, I remember my grandmother would just take all of the bread and just keep it in like this one space. Let it go stale, right? Let it go stale and she would just grind it up into breadcrumbs. That was what she used for her meatballs. Creative, yeah. It's not creative, it's just the way they did it. It was just like they left and they just kept all, they didn't waste anything. Well, that's it, yeah. They didn't waste anything. So one of the example kind of going back to your example of like how your parents fuck you up is I remember eating like pasta, spaghetti and meatballs, all that stuff sitting at the table and my mother would be eating grilled chicken and broccoli. And so she was always on a diet. And so for me, the way that I interpreted that was you only eat healthy if you're fat. You only eat like that if you have a problem. And so getting older, I was just, and she wasn't making me eat that stuff. She wasn't getting mad at me for not eating food. It was just, I was, that's my experience of that moment of watching my mom eat chicken and broccoli, turkey burgers and this bland lettuce and stuff. And I was like, wow, man, that sucks. I mean, I don't want to ever be overweight, you know? And that's how I experienced what healthy was. And so when I tried to start getting healthy, that's kind of what I started to do in the beginning until I learned better. Yeah, it's, we learn a lot of this as kids. And then in our culture, of course, just like you're saying, like eating healthy is for when you're out of shape or overweight. Eating healthy is not, like that's not just the way people eat. When you go to a restaurant with people and you hear someone ordering, you know how many times people would, when I'd order food, they'd be like, what are you on a diet or something? Or, you know, what are you trying to do? Trying to get cut right now? Or, well, no, I actually enjoy, that's just the way I eat. I enjoy eating that way. And until we're able to make that change, I don't know, we'll see what happens. I mean, I do see what you're saying with the millennials and there does seem to be a trend reversing. But then they also see shit like, you know, You got a bash, I'm in millennials now. Well, no, no, then I see shit like, you know, Like, yes, organic food sales have gone through the roof. Organic candy sales. You know what I'm saying? Or I'm looking at these treats and stuff and it's like non-GMO cookies. Oh shit, let's get some of those. There's a girl, there's a girl that sells cookies. She's a trainer at my gym, which is kind of fucking hilarious. But she sells cookies and they're all like, they're all gluten-free, non-GMO, all this stuff. And she comes and she's, and I go, are you serious, you're putting these out? She goes, well, they're just the leftovers from when I, you know, I sold a whole bunch of these. And she goes, my clients think they're healthy. And she's like, they're stupid as fuck. Oh my God, that's horrible. They're stupid as fuck. They just like, they think that they're healthy just because it's like organic sugar. Okay, organic cane sugar, non-GMO, you know. That's horrible. What is the matter with people? My clients are dumb. Well, you know it's become a selling point when, you know, I bought a bottle of water, not that long ago, and I think I took a picture of it. I almost, I think I posted it even on my Instagram page. Like non-gluten. It said gluten-free. Yeah. No way, did not. Yes! I saw one with Sausage said gluten-free. Fuck you. Well, they put like, they put like fat-free on potato, I mean on pretzels and stuff like that. You know, like just, it's like, why would there be fat in there? You know, it's just like, they just put it on there so people who are on a diet think, I can have that. Yeah, licorice is on the list. Yeah, the licorice, what are they called? You know, red vines. Red vines, red vines still says it, a fat-free food. Fat-free. Oh, I love it. Healthy. It's fat-free right now in this moment in its form, but you know, it's gonna be, right? Vegan red rose. Get there, you'll get there. So do you have any ideas that you're throwing around in terms of how you're gonna grow your business and monetize it? Yeah, you know, some of the things that I'm doing now is, and I've been talking about this on my show, is my wife and I are getting into doing more one-on-one online coaching. I find that, you know, I did like a test run a couple of months ago on this and I had really great results in terms of getting through. Like when you work as a personal trainer with your, you know, and you're at the gym and you say you work out with your personal trainer three days a week, right? That's average. How much talking do you do about nutrition, about lifestyle, about, you know, about the things that you're struggling with psychologically? None. I mean, basically you guys just chit-chat about the shit you're talking about, you don't wanna open up in a gym because most people feel self-conscious. So that's the things we talk about. So we'll work one-on-one with people and really get to the heart of what the problem is. You know, like just that example of generational eating, the way I associate healthy food, that's really visceral for me. That makes a lot of sense for me and there are a lot of discoveries along the way. Like I've had clients whose like parents have died in their arms because of heart attacks and they are just like, they don't wanna go down that road but they also have an entire lifetime of only processed food and they don't know anything different. So to talk to them about like how processed food process is digested in your body, how it affects you, how it affects your weight, you know, that is just that if we're talking about the lack of knowledge, people don't even know how to make that leap from how that food makes me feel, how that food makes me digest, how that emotionally I feel, mentally I feel, physically I feel. Well, one of the most common things I hear from people when I tell them things like, okay, I want you to avoid, we're not gonna eat any processed food. And then they'll be like, what am I gonna eat? Yeah, they're totally lost. Almost like they ran out of food, like I'm gonna starve, I can't eat anything. It's like, no, there's a lot of food you can eat. Carrots, or... So that's I think the difference, I think the difference between what I do and maybe what like a lot of trainers would do is I'd never tell people what they can't eat. I'd never take anything away. So you tell them to aim for things rather than avoid things? So like a really good example would be, first we're setting up our, we wanna know where we're going, right? Cause we're, I usually work with people for three months, you know, if we're talking about online and then we might extend it longer than that and then we might do more like monthly check-ins, right? That's the kind of, that's the model that I'm building. Whether or not that's sustainable and a smart move, I don't know yet, but it's gonna give me the opportunity to really learn throughout this process, like what works for people, what doesn't work for people. That for sure you'll get that from that. Right? So one of the things like day one, I want them to know what they're eating. So I want them to write down what they're eating. That's a huge thing for a lot of people is they don't even know what they're putting in their body and they don't know like, yeah, I had diarrhea this morning, but you know, I don't know, I always have diarrhea. So what's the difference? It's like, well, no, now if we know what you're eating, we can kind of track that and see why, you know, what's happening there. So sometimes that'll be like one of the first things. It's like, can you write down everything that you're eating and just tell me when you're eating it and then give me all your energy levels along the way. I wanna know what your energy levels are, what your hunger levels are and then I get a real inside snapshot of what their life is like and then we start incorporating things like drinking 80 to 100 ounce of the water a day, just getting into the fucking habit of drinking water. Most people don't drink water. Most people are drinking sweet teas or like sweetened coffees or whatever it is. Now, I'm not telling them not to drink their coffee, not telling them not to drink their tea, but good luck fitting in like, you know, a whole entire gallon of iced tea or Coca-Cola or you know, or a jug of coffee when you have to get down that much water, right? And if they say, well, that's really gonna be difficult and what the fuck are we working together for? If the only thing that I'm asking you to do is drink 80 ounce of water and that's like half of one of those things or not even a gallon of water, right? It should be, that should be a no brainer and then over like a year or you know, if we're working together for three months, we have 12 weeks to lock in some really solid habits, drinking water and if you're 300 pounds, I don't want you to go to the gym for multiple reasons. One, because probably you don't know how to work out. I'm not gonna be there whether to help you work out, two, you probably feel extremely uncomfortable in a gym. Like just to the point of like this, like you don't want to even walk through those doors because you're feeling judged from the moment you get there. So what, you know, just asking the question, what are you willing to do? That's really good unconventional advice too because most people would think or assume that a trainer would tell a client who's 300 pounds to get in the gym and start working out lifting weights and then reality and I dropped this stat on the mine pump all the time, which is people don't realize that the average American is only stepping about four to 6,000 steps a day. That's fucking insane when you really think about it because if we walked outside right now for one hour, we would step that much. So in other words, the average American doesn't even get an hour's worth of just walking, not running, not exercising, not jogging, walking around for an hour straight. We're just in our cars, sitting at our desk, whatever, all day long. And just by giving that advice, I think, to somebody who's 300 pounds, I mean. They're probably around 1,000 steps. I've seen people around. Yeah, I was gonna say 4,000 is probably very, very generous. But there's a saying in business is you have to meet your potential client where they're at, right? It's the same thing in fitness. You have to meet your client where they're at. If I try to tell them to go to a gym, I'm not meeting them where they're at. I'm trying to catapult them into an area of their life that they are not comfortable. And what are the chances that they're gonna stick with that? Slim to none. So every single step of the way, what are you willing to do? What are some of the things that you're willing to try? Mostly for the physical fitness part. But then there's the learning process of how does the body process sugar? What is insulin? And then so they start making informed decisions on what they're putting in their body. I had a client of mine, he drinks this, what are they called? It's like coffee made, but it's the international delight. So he told me, first day, he goes, Rob, I'm telling you right now, I am not giving up my coffee. It's like Christmas. Every morning I get to drink a big jug of Christmas. It was this, I think it's 64 ounces. I want Christmas. It's like a 7-Eleven coffee and he would fill the bottom of it up with that international delight. Oh my God. Vanilla hazelnut. Just to pull, like probably like 900 calories with this coffee made. Hazelnut, no, it's like calorie free. Oh, it's just a bunch of sweet artificial ones. Yeah, it's like, yeah. So he would put that in the bottom of it and then he would pour in his coffee and he would have that. And I talked to him about, maybe it wasn't the sugar, it's like fat-free, but not sugar-free, right? It's fat-free, right? So it's the cream. It's probably 900 calories of sugar then. Right, so, but I said, okay, so how much are you putting in there? Because now I was on the phone with him and I'm looking on my computer and I was like, okay. So every tablespoon that you put in there is seven grams of sugar. How many tablespoons are you putting in? He goes, I have no idea. I just fill up the bottom. You dump it. I go, what do you mean you fill up the bottom? He goes, well there's this like section of the bottom that's like, you know, it's like a cup where it can fit into like my car cup thing. And I just fill that up with the creamer and then I finish it off with coffee. I go, do me a favor, measure that. See how much sugar you're drinking. So he does it the next day and he took pictures of it, which is gonna be great for when I eventually post this, but like, he took pictures of it. It was 72 grams of sugar to start his day. To start his day. Not only that, but you're getting a net, you're getting a- Speeding it up with some caffeine. Well, you're getting a cortisol boost from the caffeine because that's what caffeine does. And that's not bad. It depends on time of day and all that stuff and your body, but you get a little cortisol boost. Then you're boosting your insulin with the sugar. Not necessarily a great company. And then you probably go sit in your car. So you basically- I think. No, he goes and sit in his office. He worked from home. So then you just prime your body for getting ready to store, you know? Exactly, exactly. So the cool thing was is he's like, you know what Rob? So he goes, I can't fucking believe how much sugar I'm drinking. And I said, yeah, the average sticker's bar is 25 grams. Basically starting your day off with 25, with like three Snickers bars. That's good analogy right there. So he's like, oh, that's not smart. Yeah, that's not healthy. I probably shouldn't do that. So then he cut it down. He literally just cut it down to like I think three tablespoons. And within the first week, he lost like six pounds. I mean, he's 340 pounds to start. Yeah, but still, yeah. But still, and he was just that. It was just that and walking and drinking water. And he dropped six pounds the first week. Well, and this just goes back to a lot of what we talked about too, about awareness. Awareness is so many people just do not have the awareness. They are naive to those things. You just, in your head, you think, oh, it's probably only about this. You know, whatever, no big deal. That shit adds up really fast. I just started practicing being super aware when I chew my food. It sounds silly. I've talked about this a few times on the podcast. He counts it. It's a new. Are you starting counting? It's a new thing. No, I'm not counting. But what I'm doing, because I realized the way I eat food, part of it's my childhood. Again, you guys told me my story about how I... Shevelling. Yeah, and they put the timer on. So part of it's that. And part of it is because I used to eat like seven meals a day, but I used to also train 10 clients a day. So in between clients, I'd have about five minutes to eat my meal. And I got this amazing technique that I developed over the years where I'd have my water, I'd have my food, and I'd get my food on the fork. I'd throw it in my mouth. I'd chew it two, three times, wash it down with water. Because I could swallow a big amount. And so I barely chewed my food and I'd pound it down. Well, now I'm chewing. And because of that, I always needed water with me because I developed a habit of not chewing my food. And then I read an article that said that it's probably not a good idea to drink lots of water with your food because it dilutes your stomach acid and it affects your digestion. I've always had digestion issues. So I started doing that. I said, okay, I'm not gonna drink water like beforehand, maybe 15 minutes before or whatever. And maybe a little bit later afterwards. But during my meal, I started trying to go without drinking. And I realized that I would choke because I wasn't chewing the food enough. So I started chewing my food a little bit more and then I started reading about that and how you become more aware of what you're eating. You tend to eat less when you do that and how important chewing is because it's literally the first part of digestion. It's a big part of digestion, not a small part. It's a big, we're not alligators. You know what I mean? We're not supposed to swallow food whole. We're supposed to chew it up quite a bit and then swallow it. In fact, we evolved that way. So I started doing this and I started tasting food differently and chewing on it and just savoring it. And I became so much more aware during my meal. I'm like, I'm on my phone last while I'm eating. I'm actually eating while I'm eating and it's made a big difference. So these little things, the little tiny nuggets of awareness, make a huge impact. And there was a whole book. I think Adam was telling me there was a whole book on this where chewing your food, losing your food. There's a whole diet that's based on it. Obviously they take a little bit of good science like that and then they expand on it. And turn it into a whole diet. It has something to do with like chewing your food like 52 times before you swallow it and you're like guaranteed to lose weight. And you know, obviously- Because you're exhausted. Yeah. I mean, the real- You burn 600 calories with everybody. Well, yeah. That's exactly, the real science behind it is you, if you think about it with the average Americans eating three times a day or whatever and if you're chewing X amount more, that's X amount more calories burn plus now awareness on what you're consuming. Plus you're probably eating fast enough to eat all the food. So it's just like, and then people are like, oh my God, mind blown, you know? That's all I had to do is chew my hand. But you know, those little bits of awareness, they really make a big difference. They really do. It's funny when you work with clients and I'm sure you've seen this, as they start to become more aware of what they're eating and what they're doing, they start to enjoy foods that they didn't necessarily like before. Like, you know, I had clients that start training and they'd be like, how can you eat broccoli? It's so disgusting. Or how can you eat the, those are so gross. And you know, two years later, I go over to eat dinner at their house and we're all eating broccoli and they're enjoying it and they've just learned to love it. So. Yeah, there's that same guy with the coffee problem. He was like, okay, we gotta get our vegetables in, okay? So we're gonna add one, let's start off with just one vegetable a day. What vegetable can you eat? And he's like, broccoli, I like broccoli. I was like, okay, great. And then I started, he sent me a picture of his broccoli and it had like ketchup all over it. And I go, what is this? And he goes, oh, it's my broccoli. Check it out, man. Like I had like a huge plate of broccoli. I go, what is that all on top of it? He goes, oh, that's ketchup. I said, why are you putting ketchup on there? It goes because it makes it taste really good. I said, did you read the sugar content on ketchup? He's like, ah, shit. So then he had to like, and I was like, but I don't like it otherwise. I was like, well, how are you eating it? Oh, we steam it. Okay, well, maybe we should try it either roasted or sauteed or maybe put some like, you know, saute it with something and make it taste good instead of just this bland fucking broccoli that most people hate, you know, just boil it. So there's, you have to give people those options, but it's totally true. Like people are doing some weird shit. The funny thing is these foods are not actually bland. It's that we've been eating these extremely palatable processed foods for so long. Cause remember, these are, you know, these processed foods are engineered. There's lots of money. In fact, there's more money. We're competing with Pringles. More money goes into making your food taste a particular way than goes into its nutrition. Actually very little usually goes into its nutrition. It's mostly how good we can make it taste. So there's all this money that goes into engineering this extremely palatable food and your brain actually adapts to it. It actually down regulates receptors that process taste these taste signals so that when you do go eat a natural food, your brain perceives it to be bland. This is why people will go on a fast and then they'll get out of a fast after three days or whatever and they'll eat a fruit or something. They'll be like, oh my God, this is exploding with flavor. Well, this is also why high sugar eaters tend to not like fruit and vegetables. I mean, I remember I was somebody who didn't eat a lot of fruit and vegetables and it wasn't until I went through my whole competitive phase where I had to eat so strict and I was eating all that. And then when I went and reintroduced those foods, I was like, holy shit, that was way too sweet. That candy's too sweet for me. That soda's too sweet for me. But oh my God, a bite into an apple just seemed so rich. But it took that cleaning that system out and actually resetting all those. That was a big learning experience because I did two men's physique competitions like within the same year and I just wanted to see if I could do it. And that exact example, like I remember dialing in my diet and there was a guy that I was training that was one of the trainers at my gym, he had done, I don't know, dozens and dozens of bodybuilding and physique competitions and he was trying to tell me what to eat and what not to eat. And I just, it was only halfway doing what he was telling me because he was telling me to basically just eat like whitefish and asparagus. That was it. And I was like, dude, I'm not fucking doing that. So I started incorporating more stuff and I got down to about 5% body fat, it was really good. The food always tasted good but the one thing that I did cut out was anything sweet, like no fruits, obviously no sugar period and when I had it got a taste of that afterwards, oh my God, it was like the world. That's what I think people must have experienced when like the spring came and some fruit grew on the trees and all of a sudden they got a taste of that and they're like, oh my God. And then they would guzzle that shit down like as much as possible, like they would just get as much in but obviously they were much smaller. If you eat an apple now, it's huge. We've bred apples and fruits to be these just sugar bombs. Yeah, but my neighbor has crab apples and those things are disgusting. Yeah, exactly, exactly. No, we've bred food literally to become more and more palatable and so you'll eat fruit and you'll bite into it and they'll breed the sweeter fruit with the more meat and the more sugar in it and yeah, it's just, it's the world we live into now so. It's crazy. Looking ahead with the future of your podcast and what you're looking to do, where do you hope to be in the next coming years? I hope that building up the one-on-one online clientele, I'd like to phase out doing one-on-one training in the gym. My wife and I would like to kind of live a lifestyle of we're gonna start having kids. That's something that's on the radar for us. So I would love to be able to have a lifestyle where we can just work from home or someplace that's just ours. Like a facility like this would be ideal because she does jarotonic and I do the training and if we wanted to build out videos and more content marketing or content stuff then that would be amazing. And then after the one-on-one probably get into group training just like with the same philosophy is a lot of the same stuff that I learned from the one-on-ones and then from there potentially doing like programming and stuff like that but I don't know, I don't know. I just gotta, the whole thing is that figuring out what's the best thing to do for the audience but then at the same time figuring out what's the best thing to do financially that's going to be able to sustain this lifestyle. Well, what's best for the audience will probably be what's best for financially. So excellent man, it's been awesome talking to you. It's great, I really appreciate you guys having me on. Now where can people find you? They can find me at openskyphitness.com. That's my website. If they're interested in joining the podcast community it's called Open Sky Fitness Podcast Group on Facebook. That's super easy and if they are interested in one-on-one coaching it's just openskyphitness.com slash coaching. Cool, for your audience, obviously Mind Pump is our podcast. Mindpumpmedia.com is where we have all the programs available, the ones we talked about on the podcast and then Instagram is a great place to ask us questions. So we actually do Q&A episodes four days a week where we answer questions that come from our Instagram page. That Instagram page is Mind Pump Media and then our personal pages are Mind Pump Sal, Mind Pump Adam and Mind Pump Justin. Thank you for listening to Mind Pump. If your goal is to build and shape your body to dramatically improve your health and energy and maximize your overall performance check out our discounted RGB Superbundle at Mindpumpmedia.com. The RGB Superbundle includes Maths Anabolic, Maths Performance and Maths Aesthetic. Nine months of phased expert exercise programming designed by Sal Adam and Justin to systematically transform the way your body looks, feels and performs. With detailed workout blueprints and over 200 videos the RGB Superbundle is like having Sal Adam and Justin as your own personal trainers but at a fraction of the price. The RGB Superbundle has a full 30 day money back guarantee and you can get it now plus other valuable free resources at Mindpumpmedia.com. If you enjoy this show, please share the love by leaving us a five star rating and review on iTunes and by introducing Mind Pump to your friends and family. We thank you for your support and until next time, this is Mind Pump.