 Hwyl ei wneud, yw Chris Howard. Rwy'n credu am y Llywodraeth Open Source Ynrhyw yw panethau Ipan. Mae'n ei wneud cyfnod yn ymchwil gan ymddyddol, ac ymddyddai'r Gymru yn cael ei ffordd i bwysig ymddir yw ddweud i'r ffordd i'r gymryd. Felly, mae'n fydda i'n gweithio i'r ffordd. Rydyn ni'n golygu i'r cyfrifio gyda'r cyfrifio, o'r pethau ymddiadwyd am ymddiadwyr ac mae'r byw yn adegu i gyda'r ffordd yma. Felly mae'n gwybod... Felly mae'n gwybod... ...fawr ffordd yn cyflwydd. Felly mae'n gwybod yn gwahanol i. Roeddwn i ei bod yn fwy o'r hoffi'r fiydd. Felly mae'r hoffi'r hoffi'r hoffi. Felly mae'n gofio i'r hoffi a'r hoffi, ond mae'n gofio i'r hoffi. Yn gwybod, rhaid? Mae'n gweithio i amser. Mae'n gweithio i fynd wedi eu cynnig. So, roeddwn i'n gweithio chi'n gweld cyfrifredigol yn gweithio'r gweithio'r pethau, o'r bethau'r cyfrifredigol yn gweithio'r perffredigol a'r ffawr i'n gweithio'r gweithio'r sgwrs. Rydym yn amlwg lleol y gweithio'r cyfrifredigol yn ymwneud yma, a o hynny o'r cyfrifredigol, o'r cyfrifredigol, o'r edrych ar y gweithio ar gyfer o'r Yngyrchu. Felly, mae gennych y gallwn gwybod ymlaen sydd wedi gwnaethwyr iawn i fy ffawr lle o'r mynd i ffancypassion? Elw i'n mynd i gael gwybod yng Nghymru, mae'n gwybod yr Let's kick off. Why are we sitting here today? It's no secret I think the tech industry has a bit of a labour shortage at the moment and developers are absolutely in short supply. We had great resignation, we had this shift to remote. Working recently and we have labour shortages, pipeline challenges as I just referenced and you've got the whole ongoing diversity and inclusion piece which I'm very passionate about. So organisations really must start to react installed ship there are all from this. Kind of wide do we want this person to work for us to wide is this person want to work for us, so that's the kind of question we're asking here. So what does this mean and what it would have to do with Open Source? Well, I really believe that Open Source can be the secret weapon here, so leveraging your open source engagements, the topic of this talk can. Be the secret weapon in what I'm calling the talent acquisition challenge of 2022. So that's where we're going with this. But it's not going to be an easy battle. a fydd ni'n gweithio i'r wych yn ei gweithio i siwr i Llyfrgell. Felly, dweud hynny, mae'r gwneud yn cael ei gweithio yn gwirioneddau yma. Felly, roedd y gallwch yn gwneud i'r clywedol ac mae'r cyfrifolio yn Llynx. Mae'r cyfrifolio'r cyfrifolio yn 2021, mae'r cyfrifolio'r cyrfaenau yn ymddangos ei gwasanaeth, yn cyfrifolio'r cyfrifolio i'r cyfrifolio, yn y cyfrifolio sy'n gweithio yma, neu'r cyfrifolio yn yr 80 o unrhyw, felly mae'n gweithio'r cyfnodd hwn yn gweithio'r cyfnodd. Mae'n ceisio, dwi'n cael ei dweud y cwmhysig, datblygu'r cyfnodd hefyd yn y fawr gweithiau. A gweld, yn yr hyn, yn y dyfodol yma, 86% i'r wych i'r gweithio cyfnodd hwn yn gweithio'r cyfnodd ddiadau'r cyfnodd hwn yn y 22-22. A dwi'n credu yn rhoi'r cyfnodd i'r cyffredinol. Felly, mae'r cwmhysig yma yn y cyfnodd? ac wrth ystafell, mae'n cael eu cyfarfod diwydus sy'n gweithio'r cyfrwynghau ac yn y costau cyfrwng. Felly, rydyn ni'n 50% yn y cyfrwng gyrfa ardal, felly y cyfrwng gyrfa ardal yn y rhaniad o'r cyfrwng. Rydyn ni'n 50% wedi gwneud o ddiogelio gwahoddiadau sy'n gweithio'n gweithio, ac mae'n gweithio'n cyfrwng. Mae'n gweithio'n cyfrwng yn meddwl a'n rhaniadau'r cyfrwng ar gyfer y baith ybydiannol, We're all here today for the same reason, but we're seeing more and more reports and metrics around open source being a strategic enabler for organisations. I spoke on that idea last year at this conference, so if you want to check that on YouTube, please feel free to do so. But consequently, it seems that business leaders therefore need to wake up to three stark facts. One is that they don't have a pool of open source engaged employees in their organisation, and therefore they're unable to satisfy their own demand. Two is that they've been too slow in realising this idea that open source can be taught, and you can kind of talk around it of skilling on that later on. And three, that those with open source engaged employees have really underestimated the need for retention, and what they're finding is that their fish have consequently found another pond. So as businesses continue to operate in this period of uncertainty and a focus on spending, it's obvious that increasing investment in open source, both through recruitment and retention, can deliver cost savings, innovation, and a real chance, I believe, to steady the ship. Organisations embracing open source are therefore really yielding the benefits. So, much like individuals wanting to work for organisations that offer certain benefits, great salary, healthcare, DNI policies, pensions, I truly believe that engineers are also actively seeking out businesses that are engaged in open source, and that's therefore what we're going to be talking about today. So recruitment, why are we bothered? Why are we even bothered about this in the first place? Well, we're recruiting, I believe, to deliver against organisation and open source objectives and vision, and that could be about growing communities, that could be about contributing upstream for business impact, it could be about embracing new technologies, new languages, and open source engaged employees and contributors are helping, and open source engaged employees and contributors are helping enhance business reputation in some of, I believe, the world's leading open source communities, and that's that kind of strategic value, that's where the real value here comes from. Contributing for business impact is the kind of the key message. Open source engaged talent also, I believe, are a bit of a unique breed, so they bring with them new heights of innovation, and they are excellent problem solvers, and they react to challenges and criticisms with reason. Open source engineers are not afraid to push themselves outside their comfort zone, and are certainly coding in the open and putting their work on the stage, makes them a kind of real talent amongst other engineers. And an interesting point there is around that kind of taking criticisms with reason, we've all seen these issues on get her with long kind of flame wars and comments backwards and forwards, I think you get a real talent from an open source maintainer engineer contributor. So, open source talent try hard, fail fast, but remain committed to the task at hand, and I really could go on about the benefits of hiring open source engaged individuals. But I also really believe that they provide a real benefit to enterprises as advocates. Those individuals that are living and breathing open source are key to establishing an open source culture and mindset shift in an organisation. So, many of you here today are probably thinking how to further your own open source kind of objectives and engagement within your organisations. And I believe that these individuals, open source engaged individuals, are the key champions and allies to satisfying open source objectives. They'll bring new ideas to the table. They'll call out what they need and why they need it. They'll also say what they think isn't right and how you can go about remedying that. And this is why 86% of hiring managers are earmarking open source talent as their high priority that I referenced in 2022. So, how do we reach them? How do we find these incredible people that we're alluding to? Well, unfortunately, there isn't a quick point here, but there are some kind of key things in terms of establishing yourself and your organisations as kind of one of the number one considerations for engineers and open source talent. So, I think the most important thing here is to have an open source presence that appeals to the people that you're trying to recruit. Now, as I mentioned around the diversity and inclusion piece, in that kind of industry, we talk about role models. So, if I'm a young black woman coming out of university and I want to go and apply to a job and I don't see other young black women as role models in that organisation, then I'm probably not going to want to work for that company. I can't see myself. The same, I think, genuinely can be applied to open source. If I'm looking to work in an open source engaged company, but yet everything I see doesn't mirror that, doesn't reflect that, then are they really engaged in open source? And I think that's a real nice translation that we can have between the two of them. Here we're talking about everything that's wrapped up in your open source culture, your organisation, activities, and it's about making it visible. That's really important. It's about contributing or sponsoring projects that you want to recruit from. It's about engaging with organisations like FINOS, the to-do group, Open UK, that sit along the interests of the talent that you're searching for. And it's also really importantly about highlighting your commitment to open source, your open source programme office, in your careers, pages and job descriptions. Additionally, and I really like this one, this is about, that's my idea, but I really like it. Think about the type of projects you're engaged in too. More often than not, I genuinely believe it's quality over quantity here. Think about the types of skills that you're trying to hire and the kind of communities that those individuals exist with in. So is your organisation known, for example, about, is known, for example, as being a real advocate or supporter of things like Kubernetes or Jenkins? Well, if they are, are you therefore engaged with those projects? Are you listed as a contributing member? Is there something visible that shows your commitment to that? Is there something your organisation can offer those communities as well to really show your allegiance and support of that and attract these people who are living and breathing in those communities? But also, and this is a really important point, don't see this idea about curating a landscape as a way of discounting those left field or more non-specific open source engagements. I think any projects that sit outside of your business scope still bring real value, because what they show is a kind of innovative culture. They show an opportunity to explore and be engaged in exciting things above and beyond the kind of narrow focus. What I'm saying here is that your organisation's open source engagement doesn't have to be niche, but it shouldn't be sporadic or misaligned to what your business objective is. And too many times, you'll see GitHub repos in the 3, 400s, GitHub orgs, with no real common thread. This is about saying, make sure that you're giving a concise, well-informed message across. And if your business objective, for example, is to ramp up engagement of a specific language to meet client demand, or perhaps it's to build a competency centre around a specific solution to help with ongoing support and maintenance of perhaps some of the solutions and packages you're using, then this is what I mean when I say, kind of reach out or recruit for influence. I hope this hashtag becomes a trend to kind of find the right people to fit the job. So it was only yesterday I saw that Amazon in an article have actually specifically been recruiting people just with a sole responsibility to contribute upstream to Apache Kafka. So it's part of their business strategy. They're hiring people in, they're paying them a salary, and all they want them to do is contribute up. Now, you read more into the detail of this, why they're doing this. But what they want to do is they want to get more contributors into that project. They want to grow the community of that. That creates more of a, less of a risk around maintenance, all of the things we've been hearing today around sustainability of open source solutions. So organisations are now realising, they can bring in open source engaged engineers and they can save them 100% of your effort going contribute back upstream. What does that provide the business strategy? Well, obviously lower costs, lower risk, real mitigation of some of the concerns there. So there's a really interesting trend happening now around not just 20% of your time at open source, we're actually bringing people to dedicate entirely in non open source companies to contribute back upstream. Paying those salaries to individuals investing in that expertise therefore is now becoming more of a kind of business norm. But what else can we do to recruit? Well, I think going a step beyond having a great website and lots of content and materials pushed out, I think here we're talking about getting kind of people on the ground. So this is about getting open source engaged individuals already in your organisations to go out and meet the new people that you want to join your organisation. So this might sound simple, but pay for those open source engaged individuals to attend conferences, to go to dev meets and be visible. It's win-win, it's win for you, win for them. Secondly, provide those individuals as opportunities to be a spokesperson for your organisation, perhaps in place of someone who might normally be the person talking, why not let an analyst, a tester, a QA, whoever happens to be, go and speak on behalf of your organisation and show you their passion and commitment for open source. And similarly, make sure on that point that it's not always the kind of obvious business leaders or the open source programme office that's speaking. Ironic, I appreciate myself from the open source programme office, but I think it's about giving a voice to those other people in the organisation that can really tell going back to that diversity piece, an authentic story about what open source means at your organisation. And of course, I would be lying if I said speaking here today, also didn't come with an element of EPAM does open source too, don't you know? That's exactly the kind of low level engagement I'm talking about, that me being here, plants a seed that, oh, EPAM does open source, or I saw this, et cetera, et cetera. That kind of on the ground conversation piece starts to lay the seeds and then that's going to mature and grow into the perfect recruitment opportunity. And there's a few more recruitment specifics too before we move on to retention. And I really, really love this slide as it's giving people the ability to kind of speak another language. You're showing potential candidates, for example, through your town acquisition teams that recruitment journey that you understand them, you understand the open source space. And that could be very simple, that could be creating a one-pager for your recruitment team, a few high level bullet points on what open source is. That could also be about asking the right questions at the right recruitment stage, maybe saying, let's have a look at your GitHub profile, do you have any Linux Foundation certificate you want to share? If you show that understanding as a town acquisition team or recruiter of the people you're interviewing, then that's going to have a natural conversation and really show that this is a true representation of your open source engagements. And also don't miss the opportunity to reference that open source culture in things like job descriptions, specifically mentioning open source solutions, perhaps, that the organisation is using and engaged in. That's going to jump out to the people that perhaps maybe are contributing to that project. It's going to make far things more attractive. And talent genuinely will be turned off if when asking open source questions at this recruitment stage, they don't get the answers or they get uncertainty. It doesn't show a kind of understanding. It doesn't show an authenticity around we believe and we trust in open source. You're kind of putting a front on. So I really think there's some value in some of these high level, what we call a battle card for town acquisition teams around some of the key high level messaging. And finally, let's say we've done all of this recruitment and it comes to signing on the line. I think there's real, real value and I'm going to put my hands up and if I'm doesn't do this, but there's real value in getting your open source policy out there in the open. So loads of organisations are realising that actually if they can get that published and lost in the hosting on Github or in the Ospo pages, then what you're saying is that you've got a giant flag saying we do open source, come and read it, but it also shows kind of potential recruits that they're going to have a look at your policy. They're going to see what it allows, what it doesn't allow, how does it fit with their open source engagement and really making sure that they don't come up against something at that final hurdle that then isn't compatible with them. So things like open source policies in the open, I'd love for you Pam to do it, we're trying, but I think there's some real, real value there. Additionally, think about the employment contracts and this is a real challenging one and we could do a whole session on employment contracts. But you'll find particularly in large organisations that employment contracts are kind of standard out the box, 50,000 people all sign the same thing and there's clauses in there over IP rights, over who owns what, over what's delivered during work time and often these conflict with open source policies. Now I really think there's value in kind of going back and looking at that and typically you won't be able to as an offer to rewrite your organisations employment contract, but there are some success stories. But there are opportunities around things like exception clauses, memorandums of understanding, agreements that can be applied particularly in the case where you're hiring, if we think back to recruiting for influence, hashtag get famous. If you think about that and you bring your maintainers in, those are the kind of people who are going to be picking apart the contract to say well if I'm maintaining a solution or I'm writing a book on this or delivering this code there's absolutely no way I want my employment for the EPAM to take ownership of that. So that's a really key part and I think there's a whole new session on that. So we've wrapped up recruitment and we've got all these people about to come through the door. So it all sounds great, they're here but how do we keep them? How do we keep those fishing up on? Well this is about retention. So the Linux foundation found, there's lots of these Linux foundation stats throughout this presentation but you should definitely check out the open source jobs 2022 report. It's got those really interesting insight but the Linux foundation found that 73% of open source engaged professionals stated it would be easy, that's the keyword easy for them to find a new role. So 73% of people working in open source in organisations have no concern tomorrow about jumping to someone who's done all of those great things in the recruitment thing so that it's easy for them. But reassuringly 67% of those people said they would stay with a salary increase and 62% would be motivated to stay with a bit more of a training opportunity. So it's not an uphill battle here. There's some simple solutions and that's why we call this out that salary and training remain the top two retention strategies not just in open source but in the wider tech industry. So we're not going to focus on those today. I think that's key and we all understand that. But what else can organisations be doing to help therefore retain open source talent? Well, I think following on from the idea of getting your policy out in the open, this is a key message. Make your open source documentation, your guidance, your policies digestible. That's the burger reference. I didn't get that one. Have clear and transparent policies that outline how individuals contribute, can not contribute, what restrictions exist, if any ideal state and who to reach out to with questions. Think about the typical questions that individuals in your organisation engage in open source will ask. So which projects can I contribute to? Can I use company materials? Can I use company time? Am I allowed to dedicate extra percentage of my working hours to this? And also really importantly, recognise that open source individuals are most likely on a daily basis collaborating, working, engaging in communities outside of their corporate world. This presents in my opinion a real risk to retention. You've got individuals living and breathing other communities and if they're looking over the fence and seeing if the grass is green on the other side, these people are living it on a daily basis. They know what's going on. So your task, in terms of retention here, is doing all you can to make open source engagement simpler and easier so that when they check if the grass is green on the other side, they actually go, oh no, it's quite good here actually, I'm going to stay. So all of these tips around retention are key to making sure that that big percentage we just saw 70-something percent don't just go, oh it's easy for me to find another job because it looks more attractive on the other side. Now training, I said I wasn't going to talk about it but there's one key thing I wanted to call out and we're not specifically going to dwell on this too much because it's obvious as we saw earlier. But there's a key message here around being proactive in training and education opportunities. Organisations really have been slow to realise that upskilling, the idea of teaching open source versus intensive courses on boarding programs etc is an attractive proposition and in particular training versus recruitment conversation, this is a key message. So providing succinct and relevant top-up education if you like on topics that are interesting and relevant to your employees, I believe has real value to you and your organisation. But recognising of course that some organisations do require intensive open source courses, going through digital transformation etc and that's fine, we're not discounting that. Instead what we're saying is there is benefit in taking a light-touch approach being attractive in offering mini courses relevant to the individuals but also that satisfy that changing business demand. So do we have client demands for a specific language? Do we have a real trend coming up that we need more people skilled in Rust or Go for example? Let's do mini top-ups around open source contribution, what it means to be a good open source citizen. Let's not push people through a 6-7 module on open source merge conflicts all of this kind of stuff that's not necessary all of the time but at the same time make sure to integrate it into your standard on boarding and I think you'll find that that's a really attractive piece around training. So similarly, keeping talent engaged though is really important. So providing opportunities to work on exciting open source projects remains a real motivator and something that increasingly is becoming more obvious when we talk to engineers around retention. How can an organisation therefore be bringing these opportunities to your talents attention? So what can we be doing? What can we be doing to say, hey, there's a really cool project here and we'd love for you to get stuck in and contribute to it. What's the role of the organisation in that? Think about mechanisms about how we can shout about those projects that you're engaged in but also how to leverage those as a pull factor to bring in more open source talent. So in EPAN we have a solution called targeted contributions and specifically as we're just hearing about sustainability in the other talk we identified a number of projects that are strategically valuable for us. Perhaps we depend on them. Perhaps we're using them in internal systems. We have found a way to pull out very simply issues from GitHub into an internal platform that we have in the organisation targeted contributions that's our catchy name and then we present them to our engineers and we say these are some great open source issues we'd love you to solve. Now of course we'd love them to solve them because if no one maintains the solution our systems are going to fall over and it's all going to go wrong. They don't necessarily need to know that the end to end that's not what we're focused on. What we're saying is we've identified this as a really exciting opportunity for you to contribute to open source and we're going to hand hold you and take you through that journey. So it's doing as much as we can to make contributing to open source giving back easy. So all of those things we spoke about now we're physically saying here's a here's a georetic it go and work on it. We're doing all the hard work we're doing all the ranking all of the logarithms et cetera to pull through those issues and we're giving them the work on the plate. Additionally though what about the role of the OSPO in this so things like contributor CLA so contributor license agreements pipelines CICD all of this kind of stuff the OSPO can try and eliminate all of those challenges particularly in the financial services and regulated industry around gatekeeping and security checks and compliance really empower your OSPO to try and minimize those challenges. Developers don't want to be coming up against kind of signing agreements on all of these challenges if they're contributing. You've done the hard work getting them to pick up the ticket and work on the issue you then don't want them to have to jump through lots of hurdles and that's a key thing about making things digestible if not the fish are going to go to another part and finally if you make contributing easy not only will the individuals contribute more and hopefully your overall organisations commitment to open source will grow but you're really minimizing that risk of frustration and ultimately what we're here today the risk of attrition. So this is absolutely one of my favourite things to talk about so reward and recognition we're talking here more about salary though this is about differentiating between simply paying talent to do their jobs but instead actually recognising their achievements and efforts. 27% of employees who resigned in their exit interviews in not of the EPAM caveat 27% of employees that resigned said it was specifically due to inadequate recognition of accomplishments. So here we're talking about and I'm going to rattle off a few things because I love this topic but we're talking about things like what tools do you have in place to trap open source engagement in your organisation? How are you rewarding if at all open source engagement in your organisation? What the rewards for open source engagement look like is that public recognition is it financial bonuses is it sponsorship is it going to a conference? What's the right fit for your organisation in terms of recognition and is it different to your existing recognition routes? How does open source feed into annual reviews peer assessments? Are resource and people managers aware of the additional engagements outside of delivery roles? Do you know who the maintainers and contributors within your organisation are? Even if they're working on non-open source solutions? And finally, are you championing and shouting about employees' open source engagements outside of their normal day-to-day and being proud about it? Have you identified a key maintainer who's just done a big release of their open source solution that's got, I don't know, 5,000 stars in GitHub? Nothing at all to do with EPAM. Are you doing a press release or a little tweet or something to say congratulations Steve on XYZ? These are the kind of things that say actually we get open source we appreciate your efforts and we're going to actually recognise you for that. All of these are super powerful and are really key to making talent feel valued and more importantly wanting to stay in the business. So we've covered a fair few areas around kind of keeping talent in your business. So we've talked about transpower and indigestible policy. We've talked about training and upskilling through to helping target contributions and of course recognising those who are doing that to keep them engaged. There can be quick wins, small effort, large scale solutions, etc. But it's about finding the right match and then realising and benefiting from that. But make sure that you do do that as otherwise it's easy remember it's easy to find another role. So make sure we do do this otherwise employees will go elsewhere. And finally don't think that you're in this alone. The Linux Foundation reported that only 7% of hiring managers expressed no difficulty in retaining staff. So the 93% of people are experiencing challenges around this. So in summary we've covered getting talent into your business and how to keep them. We've recognised the hygiene factors if you like of open source engagement and recruitment, salary, training opportunities, recognition and policy. But we've also covered these kind of value add layers the engaging and exciting industry projects providing upskilling in latest trends and tech and all of the stuff around rewards and recognition. So I genuinely believe that if we take these lessons learn away put them into practice we might just start help we might just start to help stem the challenges we covered at the bottom. We're not going to solve the demand and supply issue but what we are going to do is make our organisations the attractive kind of place for open source engaged talent make our clients happy keep the world a better place. Thank you very much. Any questions? Sure. Yeah so in EPAN we don't have metrics on this at that stage but what we do have is we have metrics within the business that we show exactly who's contributing and engaging open source. We can then track back through and say were they doing this before etc and something we're really excited at the moment is trying to identify at point of entry into the organisation who are those contributors, maintainers and then following their journey and the tool that we use in house that we've built and ultimately we're going to try and productise that but that's a sales fit for another day is really allowing us to see every single individual's contributor kind of open source life. So every contribution they make every repository they commit to every kind of project they're involved in irrespective of whether it's EPAN or not it's showing their open source profile and we can then go all the way up to the organisation level and we can see every single contribution every single commit every single push event it's crazy it's super exciting but what we'd love to do on that metrics point is be able to say oh I don't know Steve over here is working at IBM we're going to recruit him he's doing loads of stuff in open source we're not recruiting from IBM by the way and we're going to pull him through and we're going to see what happens when he joins EPAN. Do his contributions change what does his pattern look like that would be so exciting to see if we're really kind of eating the same dog food around saying we're passionate about open source enabling it but then Steve joins and he stops contributing to open source so what have we done wrong there so yep, yes isn't it it's a good question yeah so so we actually had to raise that with our German colleagues because they were really concerned about it in-house it's fine because they've signed a policy as part of their contracting et cetera but whether or not it goes into the wider world it's a different conversation sure I think it could be applied in the same way because I mean of course inner source is taking and I'm really going to simplify inner sourcing here but taking all of the good stuff around open source and then just putting it in your walls and closing it down that way I think everything that works in the open source world can work in inner source what would be really interesting is if you differentiated between the two in terms of rewards and recognition perhaps a bit of A-B testing and say are the people that over engage in the open source were rewarding them in this way the ones that are doing inner source this way and start to see what happens but the real value in inner source contributors is perhaps they don't even realise but they're already open source contributors so it's very easy to push them over that fence and get them contributing externally as well I think we've probably got one time for one or two more questions Sure, go ahead I don't know I wonder if getting the alignment in financial services versus in engineering is something that you do quite well Yeah but you'll be served according to that Yeah, I think that's a good question and I think it kind of aligns to what we were talking about the time acquisition team is that a lot of engineers that will come into financial services industry for example will be coming in rightly so because they're passionate about engineering and the Python language what it happens to be but perhaps aren't super skilled in FS or necessarily passionate about it I think there's a real part there in that initial stage of the journey and perhaps it's around the communication in calling out the kind of synergies between the two so we're innovating and we're BlackRock's mission we're doing all of this etc what does that translate to in terms of engineering so again shifting it into their language so we're not talking about financial services as a big scary beast what we're actually saying is that we're working on this really exciting innovative concept that's using these technologies but it just so happens to the div of financial products at the same time one more question so encouraging contribution while delivering for clients yep yes it's a good question so EPAM's policy is you can use EPAM's materials time etc to contribute to open source there's no restriction and we even pay financial bonuses for maintaining your own pet project so if you're contributing to open source it makes us look good so we give you the money it's fine go and have a great time and we're really excited about that for clients yes the challenge comes along because what we're saying is we need you to be flat out 100% delivering here for clients but we also really want you to contribute to open source and there's a fine line there between expecting people to be engaged in open source outside of their kind of contractual hours outside of their client delivery but still shouting about it providing all these mechanisms for people to do it what we don't want the situation we've really tried to avoid is through these financial incentives through these recognition awards etc is for people to say oh well I'm going to do an hour's work in the evening on open source because it's going to get me I don't know x amount of dollars at the end of the quarter so for us there is a balance definitely and I think when you've been the client and it just makes it even more complicated I would love for us to be able to get all of our delivery and account managers up to speed and kind of do a Google model around a tribute 10% of time a bit like in sprint planning 20% contingency for this and be able to say let's keep 10% aside for other stuff but I think that's too aspirational clients want the work done and they don't really mind about what you're doing in this fair time but it's a good challenge excellent all right well I think I think we're done thanks so much for coming everyone please feel free to reach out and Twitter all the way down the street