 So welcome. Welcome everybody to the Open Ed SIG OER 19 preview webinar. And I think I was saying earlier, I feel rather like the Easter Bunny today, because I'm bouncing around, apart from people bouncing around on the ceilings, because we had some interesting upside down interaction going on earlier. I'm bouncing around with chocolate Easter eggs and wonderfulness coming all the way from Ireland, and thanks to Laura and Catherine today. They're going to share with us the plans that they have in store for the OER 19 conference this year, and just looking at the nature of some of the things that have been shared recently, I know they have such amazing treats in store, so it's fabulous to have you with us today. Thank you very much for coming to talk to us about the events that are about to unfold in just a few weeks time. And it's really very exciting to have such an international cohort of presenters here with us, because I'll let them introduce themselves, but they're joining us from all over the world. So how exciting is this? So in terms of what we're going to do, well, of course, let me just remind you that OER 19's theme is re-centering open. Critical, and that is critical, critical and global perspectives. So I'm going to hand over to Catherine and her team, and we've got such an exciting team of panellists and keynotes with us today. And she's going to be sharing her slides with us, so sharing her screen. But if you prefer to have the slides open separately, then I just repeated the link there in the chat to these slides. And Laura is upside down at Cape Town. Catherine, I'll hand over to you. Okay. I am hoping that I will be sharing my screen. Can you see my screen yet? It will be coming online very shortly at the moment. We just have everybody's webcams. Okay. And you're coming through to share application and screen, and then pushing your screen through. Okay. Can you let me know when you can see it? I will indeed. I will indeed. Okay. I'm not sure what the problem is. It worked earlier, didn't it? Laura is back upside down again. How do you keep your hair so perfect when you're upside down? That's just amazing. You can defy the rules of physics. I'm curling it up again. I tried various things up here. It didn't work. Don't worry. Don't worry. We're delighted to have you here. Whatever perspective you're giving us. And upside down is a great new perspective. I get together with Lorna Campbell, I see. Right. Okay. There we go. We're seeing your screen. Thank you. I've just had a message in the chat, Catherine, just to ask you whether you could make the link, an open link for the slides for people who want to open the Google Docs separately. Can I? Caroline or someone who's in the presentation to do that? Caroline or Taskine? That would be great. If you wouldn't mind just giving the access. Lovely, Caroline. Thank you. Thank you so much. Well, I guess I'll kick off. And then Laura, please. We have a wonderful and yet evolving panel of speakers today. So Laura and I were asked to join this preview webinar, which usually happens before the OER conference. And we asked the three members of our wonderful keynote panel if they would join because we've been having ongoing discussions with them about the panel that they're preparing, which is we're very excited about. So Judith and Caroline and Taskine will be presenting today. And then very spontaneously, just yesterday, Sue Ming-Ku, one of our other keynote speakers said she was going to be in Dublin, so she's sitting right next to me right now, so she'll be here as well. So I might just say a couple of words about the conference and then maybe we hand over to you, Laura, to talk about your themes. So last April, it was announced that Laura and I would be the co-chairs for OER 19. So we've had the amazing pleasure of working for the last, I guess, about 14, 15 months now with Alt and with a wonderful conference team just to pull the conference together. So it really is a great honor to do this and we're really looking forward to it. In terms of the conference itself, I was thinking this morning a conference looks very much like an event and it is definitely an event, but it's a lot of other things as well. So it's an ongoing conversation. It's an opportunity to pull threads together, extant work, emerging work, the sparks and connections and synergies that happen around a particular theme. So in choosing the theme for this U.S. conference, Laura and I had many conversations and certainly critical perspectives and global perspectives have become a very dominant part of the conversation in open recently, as well as political and historical perspectives and we really wanted to not so much create that, but just really follow that conversation where it's going. As we said last year, we're moving away from hero narratives, we're moving away from the notion of one open. We know that open can actively move towards equity, but that it can also exacerbate inequality and marginalization. So we invite interpretations around this theme and in the blog posts that have been posted so far already, we're really excited to see that and there'll be yet more of that on April 10th and 11th in Galway. So we're really excited that such a wonderful community of people have gathered around the theme. And maybe I'll hand over to Laura now if you wish, Laura, just to say anything else you want to about the theme and then I can go to the next slide, which shows the different individual themes. Yeah, maybe go to the next slide. Okay. Yeah, so just to pick up on what Catherine was saying, we felt very strongly that it was time to get back to basics, that open has become so many things to so many people and been appropriated for so many agendas. And we see things like open washing happening a great deal more and we thought it was really important to start asking the basic questions all over again. And fundamentally, it's really about whose interests are being served and whether the open agenda is being sold out, has been sold out, has been taken over, has been reclaimed, should it be reclaimed, etc. And we wanted to also look at, ensure that we would look at it from a global perspective and look at the geopolitics of open education because sometimes very well-intentioned objectives undermine themselves in terms of unintended consequences. So that would mean looking at the open ecosystem and looking at the role of context very strongly and as well as looking at the role of history and linked to that the whole question of critical literacies and critical data literacies and how they link to open and then last but definitely not least how we can consider open business models and path to sustainability where there's a real danger at the moment that market forces are appropriating possibilities of open for different ends that we understand the open movement perhaps to have been founded on. So those are the themes and we've been incredibly excited that they've been taken up by such an incredibly large group of people. I believe that this is the biggest OER conference that's happened to date. Martin can correct me if I'm wrong. And I know we've been having to look for extra rooms. So it's clearly speaking to the concerns that are happening at the moment. Okay. Thanks Laura. I just want to mention that I cannot be the chat because I'm sharing my desktop. So to raise that word Laura you can mention if there's anything you want me to pause at any point please. No thanks. I expect most people who are here in the webinar have seen the program and as Laura mentioned because the numbers are so high it's over 200 approaching the maximum capacity of our venue now of 220. There's a slight delay in releasing the final program again because we're just looking for a little bit more space. But we do know exactly who our five keynote speakers are and we just thought that it would be really nice opportunity in this webinar to feature them. Now we have five people from all over the world really and we're very, very excited. Their bios are on the link shown on the slide there. Kate Bowles is I think she should be sleeping right now because it's the middle of the night in Australia. But I think most people who are here in the webinar would know Kate's work and we were just chuffed completely when Kate accepted our invitation to give a keynote. Kate's research and teaching and particularly her writing around care and open and politics of higher education reach far and wide. And I know she inspires very many of us. So we're really honored that she's going to be one of our keynote speakers. And Su Mingku who is a lecturer in political science and sociology at NUI Galway is also speaking and instead of me saying anything about her, Su is sitting right next to me. So I might ask Su just to give a little bit of an introduction to her and what she hopes to speak about. Okay, so I'm Su Mingku and I teach in the School of Political Science and Sociology at NUI Galway. So I'm quite a carbon friendly alternative speaker and I was able to reassure everyone that I didn't need extra trouble with that. So I just go to my table and I have a much more daunting task of addressing you a lot rather than my normal students. So yeah, I'll follow on in day two with the keynote on day two. And I'm going to talk about decolonial perspectives in teaching and curriculum. And I want to talk about open in a world that has already been opened and about what we need to repair. Thank you. Sorry if it sounds a bit mysterious to pick it up because being on day two, I need to pick it up. Thank you so much. I think what we might do is certainly the moderators can let us know if there are any questions, we might just flow right through our slides so that our panelists can present and then we hopefully have time for discussion amongst all of our speakers at the end. That would be great Catherine. Okay, so our keynote panel again Laura and I just again just immensely honored that the three global South women who are all PhD scholars and they open education, accepted our invitation to do something a little bit different. And that is to weave together their research and their perspectives and highlighting some of the tensions around open from their own unique perspectives. So Judith, Pasha, Caroline Kuhn and Taskin Adam. I will hand over to the three of you now. And please advise me to advance the slides as I can. We're looking forward to hearing from you. Yeah, I just want to repeat before you start Judith. I just want to repeat how we really are to have this kind of panel. We believe it's really important to have perspective not only from the global South but from people at this point in the scholarly process. And it's been enormously enriching having these conversations today. So it's going to be wonderful. Thank you Laura. I'm just conscious that Judy has just arrived. Judy, are you okay to start? Do you want me to start? And then you do you do us a second one, the introduction, just aware that you just arrived. Yeah. Caroline, I can advance to you and then hopefully do that. Yeah, I think to know that you're to put your mic on Judith come down to the bottom of the screen and click on the sort of microphone shaped object to the second one along. Okay, so well, if you are thrilled to have a keynote panel, we are and I am out of myself just so excited to. I mean, the keynote and all the experience but I just think to have the opportunity to talk together with us keen and Judith is has been for me the highlight of the year because they're really what we have learned crafting this together has been more and far reaching in our PhD we were saying that yesterday so that I wanted just to acknowledge that. So I am from Venezuela, but I have German parents. So I have been raised in a Latin country with a German upbringing, which has been very contradictory to be honest. And I am a mathematics teacher form mathematics teacher, very involved always with social justice which in a country like Venezuela is terribly unjust and it's the inequality is horrendous. And so education suffers very much with that inequality because public and private education. The completely two different worlds in all what that or in all what that entails. I'm now in the UK doing my PhD and I'm really concerned as I was in Venezuela with students voice and my PhD is about putting that voice outside of their inner space and trying to look at what are the things that for them implies struggle, which structures are really coming in their way so that that open practice cannot be enacted. And I think that's for me now and I'll give the chance to I think Judith if she's there and available. Thank you very much. Thank you very much Carol. I am there. My name is Judith. I'm from Kenya and I am very happy to be part of this team of the keynote speakers and the main thing is to share our experiences in the community of the open. As a career I am an academician. I teach in the university and I also worked previously in an NGO and more importantly my focus is on a sustainable open community where everyone has a say everyone contributes equally. And then finally we see on how to politically transform societies through open education. And now in my research I am studying at the Open University of the Netherlands and my PhD research is on differentiations that appear or that people experience with regards to open education resources. And I did this research in three different countries through assessing differentiation in access to and use and sharing of OER amongst students and lecturers within 12 universities in three countries in Africa. And this was basically a part, a broader part of the role for the project research on open educational resources for developing project. And in this discussion I'm very much happy to see and also to share my experience and giving my feelings and views with regards to how differentials can also be powerful in terms of creating social justice. Karwa are you there? Thanks Chiris. Oh yes Taskindya. Okay okay I guess it's me. Firstly just thanks for having us here today again. Before I even introduce myself I'm actually really really excited that Zooming is here because I've always had this like imposter syndrome feeling coming first from an electrical engineering background and then from a development study that I've never quite, I'm always on the periphery of education so it's nice to see also a bigger presence of people from development, international development and politics. And I think that deals so much with the theme of the conference. It's now looking at openness from this geopolitical angle as well and that it intersects so much with development and historical imbalances and all of these issues that the conference is going to be talking about. So yeah I mean just a background for me. I'm from South Africa and I think what's really interesting is both Karla and Judith and I were very emphatic about mentioning which countries we're from because our context and our perspectives really come from our lived experiences in these countries. So yeah going up in South Africa you just see the world very differently in the relation to what is at the center and what is on the side. Like for example in my education we'd be learning about the French Revolution but we'd never learn about the empires in Bali or just about the rest of the African continent. And so a lot of my research deals with this is how these historical imbalances that have existed in our physical education is now being carried on over into the open and the online education models. And so how if we don't bring these injustices or these imbalances to the forefront we can just think that we have this mutual global education. So my PhD itself looks at this topic from two angles. So it's the bigger philosophical view of digital neocolonialism and how the internet can be used as a tool for virtual colonization. And instead of resources or physical resources like co and go being the sort of the thing it's now data and humans. And so looking at those imbalances. And then at a much more practical level I'm working at in five different townships in South Africa. So townships are basically like the much poorer areas that form around the main cities due to the group areas in South Africa. Where you would have these core centers which were previously white areas and around them you get townships forming which are much less resource. And I look at basically the supply and demand. So the MOOCs that are being produced in South Africa and what are actually these students needs, these most marginalized students. What would they want from an education and how could online education seek to meet their needs. Yeah, that's it. I'm sure I'm sure I'll get into things much more deeper in a bit. I suppose Caroline can tell us a bit more about how our research is going to be linking to the themes of the conference. Yes, thank you Tuscina and Judith. Again, just when I hear you I get even more happy and excited about being together in the same conversation. So yes, we did look at the themes and we did look at how our research addresses in one way or in another these kind of different themes that are proposed for the conference. So Tuscine addresses geopolitics of open, as she just said with her interest, open for whom is a question that she answers very well. The historical perspective as well because I think that colonial and decolonialization has to do with history. It's nothing that you can forget about the history and then talk about what's happening nowadays. So I think Tuscine enlightened us with what has been, what has happened from a long time ago and how that has consequences in what we can see today. Judith looks at the back to basis in the sense of asking questions like why open and the need of more accessibility. Is it accessible or we are policy if that makes sense in Kenya and in the Sub-Saharan area. I think if that is the name, sorry, I'm not in that, but it's in, yeah, sorry. And then she looks at, we're putting that she looks at, she addresses the open ecosystem and how is open part of that bigger ecosystem. And I think that she's looking at an ecosystem already and how, how that can be improved in a way. What are the things that need to be changed so that that the area that she's looking at, which is part of a bigger ecosystem, how can that be improved. And then at the very end, my research feeds into the links between critical digital literacy, open data and openness. And it also links into the question of how does the context illuminate openness because my research is very, it addresses the influence of the context in the agency of students. So it does not look at agency as something that happens in isolation, but it is shaped by the cultural aspects of the institution or the space where that is happening. And then also the whole structural aspects of the spaces where people are interacting with. And I think that that in a way, yeah, we are. And also, sorry, Judith is addressing the business model in a way, not the business model as such, but I think that one of the things she is proposing is pathways to sustainability. And she will propose a model, I think at the very end, or it's in her ideas if it's not there, but she's addressing that as well. So I think that we really have lots to give to these, to all of these things. And I think we will illuminate them, of course, together with all the rest, the 200 people that are going to be there. But in that keynote panel hour, we're going to illuminate, I think, a lot of those things. So yeah, I hand over to Judith, I think, here or yeah. Thank you very much, Caroline, for the wonderful outlet that you've given us. Well, in answering our major questions that was guiding our lines of thinking, I think that each and every one of us has a very good approach towards basically understanding and giving leeways in which we can answer some of these questions in a more sustainable way. Like, for instance, personally, I grew up in the village in a rural setup where a number of things I only got to learn when I moved to the city when I basically came from my university study. Now, when I moved in and I realized I read about a year and I said, OK, this is a good thing. Then I'm like, OK, how come we, OK, I say, how come I was not involved? Let me make you personalize it in coming up with these beautiful strategies and wonderful models in which each and every person can access quality learning materials that can enhance quality life as well. So I got that interest. Then I'll ask myself now, we talk about open educational resources. It is open, yes, but for whom? And really, is it really open? And how can this openness, therefore, be made more, how can we bring the aspect of social justice in between the aspect of openness? And as a result, when you talk of issues of differentiations, of which, according to me, differentiation should be a power because we cannot ignore differences. We must embrace differences. Then can the differentiations, therefore, you be used as a power that would help each and every individual to access, irrespective of where you are, irrespective of your previous backgrounds. And following the parts of what history informs us, then I think there's something we must challenge because these parts also had some injustices to lead us to where we are today, where now I am asking, it is open for whom? And why was it made open? So basically, we are looking at models that can help us in rescheduling our educational systems such that the inclusion, issues of equity and equality becomes part and parcel of our actions. Taskin? Yes, okay. So, yeah, I think Judith really emphasized the various themes of what we'd like to talk about. And just to take a step back and talk about how we decided what we wanted to talk about. And one of the steps that we took is to actually look at the submissions that have been entered into the conferences. I mean, we have the various themes, and what we noticed was two specific themes had very little submissions, and that was the historical perspectives and the challenges and barriers. And so we also, what we're going to attempt to do in our keynote is challenge these aspects of the conference that still need much more thought and much more improvement. And if you could just go on to the next slide, I think, how we decided to sort of structure our thoughts is to divide our questioning and our challenging into three steps. So it would be the what, what is openness, is openness inherently good? Are we actually challenging or tackling injustices when we promote open? Is openness and social justice the same thing? And so we really are going back to the basis and at every point we're questioning openness. Then if I move on to the next angle, the how, sorry, one more slide, I think. This for us is very important to challenge practice because there's a lot of theory out there. We know how to say what we should do, but practically how are we doing this? And I think this is one of the advantages of having Judith Caroline and I present on this is because we're all in the middle of our fieldwork and in our research. And so we have that on the ground perspective of taking the theory and actually trying to try to see how it works on the ground. And so for us to practice the actual practical nuances come in here. And like for me, for example, the balancing of the global and the local, it's much easier when you're looking at it from a decolonial perspective in a physical area to know what the local is. But once you're in an open online global space, what does it mean to balance the global and the local? How do you deal with the thousands of locals from around the world, the millions of local perspectives? And that again comes back to practice. So the pedagogy that you're going to be using to challenge all these different perspectives and the plurality of voices that are out there. And then in the last part, the what next, I think it's on the next slide, we talk about what is the future of open. So if we do implement the ideas that we're talking about. So for example, Caroline talking about bringing education back to the students and sharing the student point of view and the student perspective. So Judith's idea of taking things back to something that is more inclusive and bringing more diversity into openness. If we do achieve all of these things, what then are the challenges that we are going to face? And for me, one of the concerns for me is really what about openness being co-opted? I mean, we have problems of platform capitalism, where actually diversity can just be used as another tool for marketization. And yeah, and each step of the way, as we make improvements, we see that more challenges are going to arise. So the future of open can be very exciting, but it can also be daunting. And it's really good for us to start thinking two steps ahead in terms of that. I think I'll handle for back to you. Okay, maybe something for the future of the open. Basically, we are thinking through models. I think when we talk of the future of open, then we are sharing and thinking through what then can be done. Now, we are thinking through models that can embrace social transformation. We are thinking through understanding pathways to sustainability of what we do. And of course, reinforcing working equitably with the marginalized communities that were and are still exploited. So we are just having broad pictures of thoughts that we can share and come up with a way forward that would benefit each and everyone in the society. Carol? Yes. I was thinking hearing at Tuscany and Judith what is pertinent to say. And I just think one thing I wanted to say is one thing I consider is very powerful in this panel that we are that we're doing is that the views of us, so I'm from Venezuela. And although I had German parents and I had a German upbringing, I really lift the harshness of inequality of social inequality of poverty being 90% of the population very, very poor. Sorry. And I think that our panel is strong because it has lived that from different perspective, but it has lived that inequality that exclusion that, for example, to this day in cheese from a rural area and there it was very difficult to get electricity, let alone tools to do things. And so I think that our voice, it is, it is, it is enlightened with our research, of course, and with our work that we academic work that we have been doing. But I think that the soil of our ideas and of our work is really filled with our own experience and for me that makes it very, very powerful because I think that it's not about talking something that you believe could be, it's having lived that experience. Judith, I think you can add a bit more about the collaborative and equitable work. Yeah. Thank you, Taskin. Now, when it comes to collaboration, I'm trying to think through the Sub-Saharan African as a community and the, and the, the, the myths and religions of thinking of what comes out there is the best. Now, I'm thinking through the aspect of ownership of the processes that will make openness more sustainable. Now, can we build up strategies and models in collaboration? Can we promote teamwork? Can we build what is equitable in terms of each and every person has a say too? And so that if we need to basically achieve the aspect of social justice, which is the essence of social transformation, then we need each and everyone on board. How do we do this? I'm thinking in terms of the Sub-Saharan African or the global south in general, and then the global north. When we come up with models, we come up with solutions, then can each and everyone of us form part and parcel of these models for social transformation? Thank you, Judith. I just wanted to add a little thing. We had, and just wanting to say how, what Taskin also said a while ago, how local the concept of open can be. And how I think Latin America, the Latin American region, we had an international women's day webinar, and we hosted, I think it was six women working in the open, and how, and it was basically three views from Latin America and how Latin America has pioneered if you want the open access dimension of open because of the need and the lack of resources. So, yeah, it's just curious. I just wanted to add this. And I think that the view of three in that panel will really, yeah, it will really shed light to many, many different areas. And I think that what we want to achieve is to shed light to as many areas as we can, to be honest with you, yeah. I think at this point, if anyone has any questions for us, you can start bringing them through. But I just, something I just wanted to also add on, and I think this was a discussion with some of you here as well on Twitter is about how openness is not necessarily something that's always online. As particularly in my research, and I'm sure it comes across in Judith when you're working on the ground, there's a lot of ways to be open in an offline way. And also a lot of ways to have more community in openness because we tend to focus on openness that comes from the university's budget for branding, the university, and that can always, the agenda of openness can be co-opted in that kind of university branding. Whereas there's always more subtle and humble ways of doing openness. I think Caroline mentioned this, like in one of our discussions, like opening your journal access to universities that don't have access to this. And there's a lot of small ways that we can embrace openness that don't have to be flashy or big. But yeah, I think let's get to questions. That's when things get really exciting. Wow, guys, I am absolutely in awe. I think that has been such a rich insight. It's more than a preview. It gives us a taste for where the conversation is going next. And it's so exciting to have this feeling of next steps and to have you guys encouraging people to envisage what happens next. It was just amazing. I've been busy writing things down, retweeting things and grabbing screenshots as we go through. But I know I'm coming back to this recording to listen in more detail. And given that you've broken all records and that you're going to have huge numbers out there in Galway, it's great to know that we've also got our doors open from OER 19 for those people who can't physically be with you. Who will still be able to participate through the open ed SIG, sorry, the virtually connecting session and through the tweets and through YouTube and through OATS network of ways in which they share the keynotes and the conversations. It is indeed, as Deb says, going to be so good. Absolutely. Thank you, Deb. That's amazing. Catherine, there haven't been much in the way of questions that Helen mentions the historical perspective and the struggle of getting your head around a historical perspective. And she mentioned something that I'm sure means lots to those of you who research in open and that's rivalrous and non rivalrous resources. So I'll throw that out there and see if anybody would like to pick that up for Helen. Well, I could say something in response in terms of thinking about where decolonizing open and where, you know, what got opened in the first place? Why were places opened? Why were people's livelihoods opened? How were resources opened? And thinking about the modification and this concern that all of you, Carol, Judy, to scheme, you all have brought to the table with your reflections. And the question of rivalrous and non rivalrous goods relates to things in the world which have either been given a money value or haven't been given a money value. And what I want to address for some of the time in my keynote in terms of repair and humble repairs are humble repairs to non rivalrous goods, generous goods, gift goods and asymmetrical goods, which opened the door to a completely different way of thinking about the economics and the political economy of higher education and educational resources. So I do want to think about how we are entangled in a history which has made it very difficult to take a non anti commodity approach. And how technology has a role in both binding and unbinding us to forms of hierarchy and inequality. So I'm really interested in this idea of open as unbounded, but also recognizing how we've been tied and bound and entangled in ways of using things and being used by things. So I just want to be able to bring it back to a situation where we can think about a future where humans can use things for humans. And humans do not become means that are used by other things. If that makes sense. I know that sounds very abstract. Absolutely. At what you were asking, it makes beautiful sense. And Helen is excited to hear your presentation. So yeah, absolutely. So thank you for addressing that. I did notice Taskin you raised your hand. So perhaps you want to chip in. Yeah, I just want to add on. I think she just said so many things that touch on my research so much and especially looking at things from a decolonial perspective. You have varying different narratives on what decolonization is and I think in some ways there's this idea that the local needs to replace the global. So in the African context, we need to Africanize all content or look at like completely centralized from a local perspective. And then the other narratives of decolonization that speak about entanglement and that's why I just love that she mentioned entanglement because if we look at the history of knowledge, knowledge really travels through different countries, different continents and regions and cultures. And it really is such a collaborative way of looking at it, but yet through power imbalance, knowledge is acclaimed to be from one place or another. And I think online education and openness gives us gives us the edge and gives us the possibility to actually tackle the entanglement of knowledge and actually bring about the injustices that have come. And I think really the key here comes back to practice, comes back to bringing in critical thinking and dialogue and knowledge sharing in order to really get to the bottom of these entanglement. And for me that's how social justice presents all of this because through that biological process, that global biological process, we can actually come to more epistemic pluralities as I could say. Well, that's great. That's great. I just wanted to say no, go ahead. It would be really nice if everybody could put their webcams on just for a moment all our presenters so that we could see you. That would be great. If that's possible, even if you're upside down, especially if you're upside down. Yeah, especially if you're upside down exactly. That's great. I'm going to grab a screenshot there while I've got you. Thank you very much. Where is Hugh, Heath and Tuskegee? I'm going to put my camera on. There's a limit to the screen. But we're seeing many of you, which is great. Can you see me? Not now. I can't see you. Can you guys see me? I don't have my cameras on. If you're in your room, you can see more cameras at the same time, but you've got a group mode switch at the top of right hand of your screen if you do want to move through and see different perspectives, which is important. Excellent. Well, guys, it has been amazing and rich OER preview webinar. I think that certainly I've ever facilitated. With so much in, I need to come back and stop and listen and take it all apart. And I'm so excited. And I know everybody else taking part has feels the same to actually deal with opens and to address some of the really difficult questions, the political questions, the social justice and equity issues, the connections between practice and theory, the tensions between global and local in an online context. Therefore, the critical digital literacies that we're struggling with and having conversations with more in our ongoing way and a broader way actually in more generic conversations in learning technology. So it's exciting to have OER 19 contributing to those discussions and leading the way very much on those discussions as well. As you mentioned, it's not all about the digital it is about real life very much about real life and the physical as well. And I know you're going to have such a great crack in in Southern Ireland in Galway. And I know that the opportunity for you to be physically together and have those conversations will enrich the nature of those conversations and the things that come out of them. And I'm so looking forward to seeing that happen. Somebody mentioned the soil of experience, which I thought I think I think it was Caroline, which I think is such a rich analogy as well, isn't it? Because if you've got great soil, my husband is a very green fingered person. I'm surrounded by lots and lots of plants as I sit here in my front room, little plants that have got a long way to grow yet. And it just reminds me of how important it is to get the soil right. Yeah. And the soil, you can see that the soil of your panel is right and that great things are going to grow from this. So thank you so much. Thank you. I just wanted to add a little thing because it amazes me and of course nothing is just by chance. But I believe that we plan things, we work hard, but the universe does a little bit, it adds a little bit. And I think that having this, you know, Kate with her politics of looking, so with her political view to look at things. And I think that the politics, our other keynote speaker also in political science, and it's just, I think, really feeding in so beautifully because we have the experience in us. But then we have the theory coming from our scholars that are more so, more maybe talking from the theoretical perspective. So I think in our group of keynote speakers, we are having praxis happening as we will be speaking. So I mean, it couldn't be more magic to be honest. Just, yeah, just that. Thank you very much. I couldn't agree more. And I want to say a great big thank you and lots of applause to all of those of you who put so much time into preparing this preview webinar and giving us such a close vision of what will happen at OER 19 and such an insight. I know many, many people will be following your discussions and contributing to your discussions because the doors are very much open for contribution. So thank you very much for that. Do share your appreciation guys through the chat. There are, there is a little clap avatar you can use, or you can just use the chat to feedback. Just a quick reminder that today's session came to you thanks to the OpenEd SIG, which is supported by ALT. So thank you ALT for letting us have the platform and make this recording. Do keep in touch if you, if you check the hashtag OpenEd SIG, I shall be curating some of those tweets that have happened during the session today. Thank you all for coming and thank you so much for such a rich conversation today about OER 19, which is definitely going to be breaking new records. Thank you so much Catherine, Laura, Taskeen, Judith, Caroline, have I forgotten anybody? Thank you all so much for your contributions. Great to see you there Brian too. We appreciate the images that you've contributed to OER 19, all the work that's gone in. And I'm going to switch the recording off now.