 Ladies and gentlemen, we have another interesting discussion tonight. We have John and David We're going to be discussing the God of the Hebrew Bible. We have We're gonna have some opening statements pretty short and then we're gonna have a standard open discussion Followed by Q&A. So go ahead and tag me at converse contender in the live chat and I'll get to your Superchats first and your questions Secondly, I just got a new microphone So let me know if you get if everything's good with the sound in the live chat and I appreciate that It looks like everything is good so far. So I just want to say first that this is a non-partisan channel we We want everybody to feel welcome here and have an open discussion without any Problems so everybody try to be your friendly selves in the live chat and We only have one rule here. No hate speech You know, you can bust somebody's chops or something, but let's keep it civil for the most part and with that James I thought I was I thought tonight. This is my night, right? But then James was like no way dude. I Need you to put me in so James has come in live Here he is. So this is going to be I'm excited to mention this folks So as you know, oftentimes Thursday nights converse helps out and I'm swamped right now I'm moving so I said converse definitely need your help this week And so really excited for tonight's debate excited to hear it after but I won't be able to be here moderating But I felt it was kind of my role. It was kind of my responsibility to be here just because I don't know If you guys know this maybe you've seen it on Twitter, but in case you didn't Something big has happened in particular our own brother converse contender Family, you know part of the family here at modernity debate. You may not have known he just got engaged So I want to say on you know in front of all let's everybody together. We can say Congrats converse contender as this is honestly epic. We're so excited for you Thanks so much James. By the way, I had no idea James was gonna do this. He just said he needed to come on But thanks so much for that. It's my pleasure and we'll hold on one second. So we else is coming. Yeah, we So I don't know if you guys know this we have a team of Journalists now for modern day debate photographers basically reporters for us and you might be surprised that it just so happens I mean, they're very diligent. They were there at the time of the proposal very special And so for these kind of proposal wedding pictures Well, they were actually they had some exclusive photos. So I have to show everybody This is really special. A lot of you don't know converse contenders fiance, but you will know I am so glad you appreciate our Hardworking reporters and so with that we you guys look terrific I will let you go and let the debate commence. Thanks so much to our speakers for being here with us tonight John and David. It's a pleasure to have you before I kind of say goodbye. So thanks so much As well as thanks converse for moderating tonight. Perfect. Thanks, James All right with that Wow really uncovering The dirt under the rug, I didn't expect that at all All right, John and David we can go ahead and get started John. It looks like your video Went out hold on one second. Sorry for such technical difficulties. Okay, John looks like I got it, buddy No problem. Who wants this? Who's gonna go first? I'm sorry John or David David would like you would like to go first. Yeah, I'd like to go first. All right. Go ahead Dave All right, so my name is David I live in Israel and I'm taking a position that the God of the Hebrews is immoral before I begin I just want to say thank you to modern-day debates for hosting us converse moderating and thank you John for accepting the challenge Well, this debate isn't necessarily about the source of grounding of a particular moral system Just so we don't look past each other. I'm going to give a brief overview of where I'm coming from As to what makes a moral agent immoral Firstly, it would be an agent violating moral principles not conforming to patterns of conduct usually accepted by the given society And I would further go into state that an immoral agent is someone through either deliberate and willful malice or Deliberate in action causes a needless suffering of be violates the well-being and harms individuals or groups So we follow God of the Hebrews we have the issue of circumcision So God has demanded that the male babies eight days after they are born is circumcised Now the issue I have with this is that a baby has no moral agency that cannot willingly enter into a covenant with any idea to whatsoever and There's no medical reason given for this action. It is just that it is the sign of the covenant between God and Abraham Then there's a command that Abraham sacrifices his son. I Would say these two instances the general commutation of babies and the demand that a father met his son Even as a test should suffice to show you that the God of the Hebrews is immoral And I give no credit to God for sparing Isaac for his buying his own design that Isaac's life was in danger Then this is that there is the show of slavery where slavery is sanctioned and allowed both of the Hebrew and Gentile There is even a victim trapped the Hebrew slaves that becomes a slave forever Then there's no his flood drowning everything including infants. I Don't think I need to explain why that itself is immoral then when it comes to once Samuel chapter 15 There's the command to kill all the male amelokites where even the infants and mothers are to be murdered This is for past crimes Then there's the issue of Lot being willing to sacrifice his two daughters to the people of Sodom so that the angels are not great I Don't know how this person How God could be considered moral God would accept this person as being a moral agent himself or not immoral Outside of the Tanakh I'll say that there are a plethora of instances where it is to share an action that the God of the Hebrews Allows when either suffering both of the chosen tribe and those outside. There's the programs. There's banishing position There's leukemia and children and they say the list could go on That and that's what I have for now I really appreciate it. Thank you. Thank you for how else to me and I really appreciate You taking the time out of your day to debate me David and of course our host Contender and James. I was a nice little piffy intro I liked that it was a it was nice So as an Orthodox Jew and someone who used to be Jewish yourself, you know, we understand from a Jewish perspective that the Torah is The legal instructions as within the written Torah, right? So when we say Torah or we say the Bible right colloquially from a secular, you know English language The Torah is what the laws and commandments of Israel this the? The commandments that God gives right the stories our stories There's a stories that are Are there within it? Yes as an Orthodox Jew? I will say that I take it on faith that God gave Torah, you know the reading toward the Moshe on Mount Sinai gave and then of course distributed to the Jewish people Israel But we have to understand that those stories are are exactly just that stories Yes, do can we take it as history possibly are these things actual historical events that took place possible now? Of course again, I'm gonna really iterate. I'm an Orthodox Jew. I take it on faith that these stories did happen that this is history That being said morale the question of morality comes in What can we see from them from the law the the laws and precepts that God gives us that the Mishpat the Whether it's the the hook the the commandments that we cannot understand or this to simple laws like we can't understand like thou shan That's still thou shan not murdered we can make sense of it. It affects us It doesn't affect us. It does affect us. It doesn't affect that we can put it We can understand then there are commandments Hokeem, which we can never make sense of kosher Why can't we eat milk and meet together? Why can't I wear different fibers? You know, why can I put cotton wool and linen together? Okay We might find that strange. Yes, that's why they're part of Hokeem the red heifer Why does a an animal can make someone pure and unproved the whole concept of Being pure why why is that even the thing? Why is the God of Israel so Concerned about who's pure and who's unpure right who's to me who's who's kadoosh who's Holy So we have to understand make we first have to have the ground Precepts for this. What are the stories? What are the what are the laws and how does it affect and I will I will say from my personal perspective? The heart the stories could be harsh. They could be positive They could be negative but at the end of the day the laws the the Torah itself There is no better system of governments out there that has never made a Finer group of people the Jewish people in history throughout history has not there's never been a more moral group of people out there There's the laws of all the civilizations throughout for the most part. I mean we can see countries like Soviet Russia Who threw off the yoke of heaven and completely went to atheism and you can see that the trail of destruction that it led when You don't have Torah as a basis and you can see it with with America, which is a Judeo-Christian nation Nation that has the Ten Commandments as its precepts Again, you know, we can argue, you know, why is Shabbat a law? Why is you know honoring your mother a law? What what makes that moral what makes it unmoor? What why is that such a top 10? You know, we can we could argue which ones are favorable which ones are not favorable But that would be my argument my argument is that if you follow the Torah That is morality and we can see it and then we can see with Abraham We can see with Yetzach. We can see with Yachov. We can see with Yosef. We can see with Moisheh We can see it Aaron We can see what Maryam all the way down to King David the King Solomon to me today that these men were the most Charitable man the most man of Chesed Abraham is known as Chesed a man of kindness No, no other man in the history of the world with like Moses was so kind that he was willing to give his life up To sacrifice himself for the Jewish people and to keep the people from from being perished in the desert So that would be my opening statement and I would love to continue this with you David Thank you so much for having me like I said and also James. I love I love James I love subscribe the modern-day debate. I love everyone. Please. Thanks so much for that All right, you guys we're gonna jump into the open discussion Just want to let you know again that you'll be tagging me at Converse contender instead of modern-day debate So if you want to send in any questions or super chats We will get to those in the Q&A section and so One more thing John What time do you need to be out of here by I know you guys are both You know what? I'm in a friendly environment. I say at 1015 at the most maybe 10 20 So we'll so we'll go until Yeah, okay, so that's that's plenty of time. All right, so we'll go ahead and start in the in the Open discussion and then I will interrupt you guys and let you know. Hey, we got about 10 minutes left before the Q&A All right, who wants to start? I Like to take a swing. Thanks. All right, John. Yeah, sure. What's what what do you want to start with? You said that Abraham Isaac Jacob King David As Solomon would you what you could saw as being a moral person or as a righteous people? I'm sorry who in particular King Saul Yeah, you didn't mention him, but I'm curious King Saul I think Saul is a has questionable traits But I think that he was you know as as someone who was the first king of Israel and the situation was dealing with You know, he he had a quite of a quagmire what he was dealing with Okay, because it was him that was classed with killing all the Malachites Is he was commanded? Yes. Yes. Well, and that is still commandment today by the way That is a is a Permanent commandment that we shall remember Amalek and annihilate them. So I'm aware of that So but in particular, you didn't mention King David's son Solomon Abraham Isaac and Jacob as being righteous people So I think I'm sure Yeah, so Do you remember the story of David and that shadow? Absolutely So right there, I would say that he's at the very least marginally for David himself would be marginally what in particular I would I what put what is particularly disturbing about the King David story of Bacheva? He saw a woman bathing naked. It's like he designed to have her He had sex with her but it pregnant while she was pregnant then her husband. I think was his name right up a Feel what his name was right. Yeah, correct. Yeah, but David gave the commandment to his general saying Okay, so when you attack this particular city all back all your men and leave for I am there to be killed So it leaves a way open for him to marry Bacheva So I'd say that's questionable at the very least I Have to be honest with you. Okay from from my from my perspective as a person It may not be accept it may be accept Maybe politically correct or whatever the terminology is but according to the Pasha according to halacha Jewish law He did not sin. He did not commit an avaibre Uriah was not married to Bacheva at the time when he slept with her According to Jewish law every it's according to Torah law. It says that every soldier Including generals have to give a get to their wife because they're gonna die in battle Maybe they have their head chopped off. Maybe you can never indebtify the body that means in Jewish law A woman can never have sex again can never marry. So every soldier is divorced from their wives. So The Bacheva was a free woman that could couldn't to sleep with any other man that he wanted that she wanted So it's not like she wasn't committing adultery. He wasn't committing adultery That's a very nice loophole, but it doesn't change the fact. It's the same. So I serve in the reserves of Israeli army It's not a little it's not a little po. It's within the law that the soldiers are divorced from their wives It's creating a nice loophole. So that it's not viewed as cheating It allows women to be unfaithful to their husbands and And so which which so what do you think is a more moral thing to do is a woman who has a husband That's in war and dies or maybe he runs away Maybe he doesn't want to fight he runs off and and leaves his wife and children behind now That woman is locked in a marriage that she never can escape from and never can be with another man That wouldn't doesn't seem more just doesn't justify to me Why give why why give a should give a loophole get give her a way out divorce, you know What what I would say is let's have a close in there saying that if the men before the men come back from war And her husband does not come back with them. Let's say a month or three weeks. Then she's divorced Then as he's technically dead However, you would like it. He's abandoned her and she's then legally divorced have that cross in there As far as I know them that they could she could remarry him and he can remarry her any time they want it when When he comes back to war, I'll be a very costly wedding. I think Well, that's see that's a secular. I mean you have a secular perspective Judy is Jewish lawyers. I mean Jewish lawyers marriage is Living with the man so a woman can be acquired by a man by sleeping with you know by sleeping together by by a ring Or an item or by by money. So, you know, so a dowry. So It would just be that you would just do it over again. You would just have that same thing She would just move in with him again when he comes back Okay, let's just we'll say this is a loophole that's in there which allows David's hands to be very clean So when you look at that story where he's telling his generals Pull your men back so that he actually does die. So I actually may marry her So there's no chance that he comes back and they get married. Ah, that's so you say, okay, right? So, okay, so the adultery and now that now King David is a murderer, right? Okay, so as far as I know According to story if I remember correctly doesn't you rot you die? Whatever his name is doesn't he He dishonors King David King David tells him you should go home to your wife Doesn't he say in the store according to the story He tells him to go home and have cake or a coffee or some some sort of thing and he says don't know I'd rather stay be on your side. So as a general who dishonors the king and doesn't follow orders of the king He's worthy of dying. He is to die in battle. So King David actually was merciful. He let him die as a general That's not how when he wasn't a general if he was one of his heroes not necessarily general Okay, okay What I said to him is so David wanted to pull him back And say come sleep with your wife and draw your wife just so that her adultery wouldn't be found out Then when your eyes said to him, no, thank you. I'd rather be with my men I'd rather be serving on the front lines. So we just aren't he dishonored King David in public He gave him an order. He gave him an order to do it was an order He's a king and he's ordering a soldier to pull back. He's he's telling him to go home He's disobeying Can you do that in the army where you told me you joined the army You can you say to yours to your leading general or whoever's in charge and tell him have a nice life I'll do what I want and go to the battlefield when I want Or do you have to do I've said to my commanders I haven't had the lecture speaking to a general but I have said to my commanders that I would prefer to stay on base I'm happy to give my time to stay on base. I'd rather stare at the barracks So that other people may go home. So I actually have done that I've been in that situation and David wasn't saying go home and have sex ordering him to go ahead and have sex with his wife He was let's say politely encouraging him To go and have sex with his wife and cover up his deeds Amen, I mean that's I mean that's why I think that's why God does say doesn't God continues that You know, he had too much blood on his aming King God didn't Hashem never allowed King David to be the one to found the temple because doesn't Hashem say later on I think it's in second Kings Wasn't it says that you know, you had so much blood on your hands that that you should not be the founder of the temple Isn't it something that effect? It's something like that. Yes So so to go back to the topic of whether or not the God of is the Hebrews is immoral Okay, so okay short the King David may be a questionable character. I do I mean as as a king Um, he was a very righteous man. I mean he I mean You know, he did I mean he was uh, I mean look at all the other things that he did. I mean he he established You know, um, let's put you know when when when they wanted to build the temple it is said that You know He he gave people new homes like he redistributed the the land for people to move in and out and and all that thing All that all that jazz. So I I don't think we should just you know Judge a person on just one instance instance on their life. The life is many days, right? It's not just one day Yes, you can fall You can all fall So for that, I would just say that I was just one instance of him being slightly questionable that I remember the top of my head for king David Very good. Why don't we just move to Abraham and Isaac? Okay, and the commandments to kill Isaac the binding of Isaac Yes So how would you Say that that was I think I think I think you know people believe that I think there's a there's a perspective that people have that God is You know in control of Absolutely every aspect of reality now as someone who's religious I do take it, you know, again, you know, I on faith that God is you know, God that does intervene and he is part of our lives But I think in order to know whether or not Abraham was a good man a righteous man You would have to test him and I do believe that You you would have to see whether or not this person was worthy Of being called a Hebrew, right? I mean you're talking about the first person That's going to carry on the name of the god of israel, right? There's a there's a story in the Midrash, right? Isn't it it's a story in the Midrash where you know, Avraham is arguing with Hashem Right and and he says how could you you're going to slaughter? Sodom and Gomorrah and you're I'm supposed to proselytize right because it says that avraham is finding converse He's trying to bring people to the god of israel, right? He's the first. He's the first israelite He's the first jew How am I going to get people to the god of israel if you're just blowing up city after city you're laying waste I'm going to say oh, yeah become a Follow the god of israel you take yeah just like the rest of the city, right? So there are instances that that that shows the character that shows Through that story that that that there's a there's a growth as a dialogue taken place And and and yes, it's a story But I think it's a story that highlights that that you can see that the god of israel is a moral god that he wants moral people to follow him and that's what I was saying in my opening argument that That that that what's going on these stories are showing us that that the halacha When you follow the laws of Torah that it makes you a better person, right? It makes you a moral person because of the law giver that it gave that gave it you it's it's uh It disseminates it's it you know trickle down economics You know they say trickle down economics comes from top down above so it's coming from hasham to us You can we can see it in us that that it's that it's hasham I I have a lot of doubts in that But here's the thing so he's testing abraham and how righteous abraham is now he's ordered to the point that abraham he's ordered abraham to sacrifice his son Absolutely. Yeah, kill your son How is the correct response? Yes, I will kill my son He and in this instance he's saying I will kill my son For you because that is what you have desired But then god also says I am going to destroy the entire the pounds of sodam and gamora And then he tried to tries to bargain god down from 50 to 45 30 to 10 And god couldn't find so in one instance. He is willing to plead and beg with god to save the lives of complete strangers So good for him nice moral action And I think for another stake in in that midrash Whereas I think god that's also where he says please save lots fly Okay Well in this instance now when it comes to Kill kill your son for me abraham says shirt. No thing. No problem. Isn't the correct response to say No, that is my son I would rather take his place if it is Sacrifice you desire Please take me instead of I would say that would be a great way to pass that test And that's a failure in abraham's thought That's a failure This is not my words. This is the words of rabbi jonathan sacks He's he was the chief rabbi of england for for back in a little while I mean it's been a while since he was the chief rabbi And he he pontificated a really piffy comment like I know james likes to wear piffy that this was actually A groundbreaking thing that was taking place that up into that time And to actually to even to this day that people have the belief that they that the children Are the property of their parents That that children believe belong to their mother and father And I think what what what he pontificates is that hasham hasham is demonstrating to us that Children aren't property to their parents that that they don't have This sort of this this ability to just give them up because you also have to understand during this time We're also reading in these stories that you know You have people giving up their children to the gods like throwing them to the fires And sacrificing and you know the native americans practices all throughout their history And the canaanites and all this So it's almost like it's almost like hasham is is giving us a new moral standard that you can't just Give up your child now when it comes to why abraham? Why didn't he you know say this? Why didn't he come up with this? I mean according to the story the only answer I can give you is that abraham always wanted a child That was he that was he what he wanted he wanted an inheritance. He didn't want his property to go to a slave lv melik Was that I think that was his life So He met in what's considered a roundabout modern day jerusalem And then he would have gave that so he would have inherited all of abraham So abraham beg pleaded to hasham I want an ear so now hasham is he's testing him. Are you going to stay true to me? Are you going to be a loyal? I gave you the exact same thing I gave you that you wanted and now Will you sacrifice it for myself to give it to give it back to me? And so I I think yeah, I think we have to understand that That it's sort of a two-part Answer to this. Yeah on one level God is fulfilling the request of abraham That he's giving him the desires of his heart. He wanted a child But he also has to say That this child is not just your child that this child doesn't is not your property that he's giving you is giving us a moral Answer that children orange is something that you can you can decide to give that it's oh if you want to You want to give your child up? You could do that today No, it's my eye command that you give my child to give your child the day. I say you shall do it Wouldn't that just have been a lot better for god to have said to abraham Children are not your property and they're not to be sacrificed Like that you can and because he is Because he is god he can why can't he say that? And explain it Why does it have to be through taking it? I think of what is he must have been going through Where he's tied onto that altar. There's only when he's tied on the altar and the knife is about to come down That an angel comes down and says to god says to abraham not Go and sacrifice. I think it was a was it a deer or a ram. It was caught in a thicket Why does that get to that level even where abraham said yes god? Sure, I will Sacrifice my son to you and god would have said no no no no no no no no you've failed the test I'm gonna I know i'm an orthodox jew and I know this is going to be a little safe to say but I sometimes wish that the stories weren't part of the Torah I sometimes wish the stories sort of sometimes detract From it doesn't it does I gotta be honest as a human being as a as a I'm with you I'm with you 100 percent when I read the stories it sometimes it makes me laugh sometimes it makes me cry Sometimes it makes me angry that it makes me filled with emotions and sometimes But I would like to say that these stories are detracting Detracts us from really what Hashem really wants of us And and I will agree with that I it's a rough story to deal with but at the same time That it's also beauty the stories are also beautiful. There there are nothing like them And I think that's how we're supposed to learn I mean if you just go through if you read the bible as From point a to point b from from year zero to year 13 13 at the given Torah Mount Sinai, it's a learning process. They're growing You can't form a nation God is God is you know He he with an outstretched arm and a strong hand and an outstretched Outstretched arm reached into the bowels of each of them pulled forth a people to call his people It's going to take time. It's going to take a process, right? I mean that just that process along 40 years in the desert, you know, you just can't wake up one day And just say you're ready. You need to learn you need to grow So I I think that God is also allows us as human beings to grow You know when we look you know today the the new thing is statues and it offends people and And and and all this other stuff that goes on and how we look at history I think that's a relevant topic because We we use that to understand what we're standing on the so so the shoulders of giants, right? Who's the famous, uh, how come how come to say that Stephen Hawkins? I think Nathan had said that Hit oh, okay. My bad. My bad You know, we're standing on the shoulders of giants to use one of you one of you one of you one of your own atheists You know, it takes time it takes it takes process Who was it? I'm sorry Nathan wasn't an atheist by no means was an atheist. Oh, okay. Oh, oh, that's right. Yeah. Yeah, he was He was a christian or something or something like that. Yeah, sorry something like that. It's Yeah, but yeah, but the saying is still true whether you're christian whether you're whatever you are It you can't just you can't you have to walk before you run, right? We all we know that same I know I know I'm probably not people are saying come on John hit him harder But I think that's the honest human answer. I think that a shem allows us time to grow I think I think that's the truth and that it is because How else can you how else can you explain? How you can go from from from Noah's flood the Abraham Right, and then Abraham The Marche, you know, you know, I'm saying it that's those are generational gaps jumps Leaps, I mean, I'm sorry generational leaps You're making huge progress even within the Jewish people today So on that note, I do think that the best way to move forward to progress inside is to do it slowly But surely building upon foundations. I think we've seen that when there have been violent riots and upheavals overnight in the space of the human lifetime that those are very rocky foundations and The systems crumble So The show I have then with that when it comes to the Tarantula is that it is stuck at the end of Malachi It is it's stuck there. There's been no progress made after that But we have as humans we have progressed the one in the waste. We have progressed a great deal we You know things in Leviticus where If people are gay, they have to be stunned whereas today we allow people of same sex to get married Um, that's at the very least in the Western cultures Um, you've also said that America was founded on Judeo-Christian principles. That was correct But I would consider I would consider America to be a Judeo-Christian nation the founding fathers being And to that I would say perhaps not they follow more the rules of enlightenment And with that especially in the states you have freedom of and freedom from religion Whereas I think it's the first and second commandments, which is all about saying that I am the Lord your God There shall be no other gods before me. So if America truly was created on that principle And not on secular morality Then you wouldn't have freedom of religion in America. It would be I think it would probably be a Christian nation. It would be enforced like it would be Either Protestants or the Catholics some form of the Christian streams would enforce those rules And anyone not following those rules would be perhaps second class if not killed because it does say in the Tanakh That if someone tells you to worship a different God that you've got to kill them. Whereas in the states You can believe almost whatever you want and you can preach almost whatever you want Those are some good boys. Okay. Maybe maybe you're exactly right on on the map about America being a more An enlightened, you know founded on enlightenment not exactly Christianity, but I would say I would still say the basis is there the foundation is there. They're not completely Throwing the yoke off 100% they still have The belief of of of Hashem and God and that that morality Is a progress that is progressing the ethics and values within the system is progressing Take take for example other nations that have done such things Soviet Russia be example that they completely gave up God at you know at all they wipe it out completely, you know, if you know, they had children Narking on their parents if they had a Bible if they were Jewish I I know Jews Who who you know that they were more brutally treated worse in Soviet Russia than then An Adolf Hitler in Nazi Germany. It was More barbaric I can tell you horror stories. So so I think the best thing is You know when you have that foundation and you know the foundation That it disseminates from now, of course as Jews, we're going to say that that disseminates from Hashem, right? The first commandment. I am your lord your god. I mean, I'm not going to make apologetics for that I mean the foundation of the Jewish people is Hashem God He's the only king. He's the only savior There is only one right that is a fundamental principle in Judaism. There is no other than Hashem You know, he's not a person You know, he's not a not an angelic beating. He's not three. He's not 10 He's he's not the Sifriot of Hassid Gavar and Trafered and you know, you know, I'm saying father son So, you know these so after you guys stop and not the only I also mentioned this The entire Talmud is an entire debate an entire conversation about why these laws exist and these laws change You know that as someone I I hope you would know that the laws of Israel are not the same as they were today They were what they are today are not the same as they were 3000 years ago So I'm very happy for that. Yeah Well, I hear you. I hear you. I get you. I get you. Well, I think that's what it takes. I think it takes care of itself I I think that you know, we can see like the Shamab prayer It says that you know, if you worship me, I will give it rain. I will give you rain in season And the rain in the season will bring grass and because the grass your cows will be fed And because your cows are fed you will have a family you grow old and see your children, you know And you don't worship me. They won't be rain. They won't be grass. They won't be cattle. They won't be children So I think just within the Shamab prayer that Jews, you know, pray twice a day mornings and nights That we're under, you know, we understand that it's a natural thing that happens if you disrespect The Shamita year you got to let the land rest every seven years the jubilee year every 50 years, right? If you just work the land non-stop You're going to burn out the soil if you work non-stop seven, you know seven days a week non-stop You're going to burn yourself out. So it's almost like These commandments are what it says in Deuteronomy like Moses says these are laws of life If you eat of Torah you eat from the tree of life and live forever Because it's it's a way of life that's worth living You're going to be rejuvenated. It's going to heal you. It's going to help you It's going to do everything for you. It's if you can see it with your eye The grass will grow the cows will be fed You know, there won't be phantom in the land But if you if you go against the laws if you're if you're a complete even And you just you know do whatever you want. You're going to hurt your neighbor. Your neighbor's going to hurt you There's no there's no Coherence way of having a nation. So there has to be a sort of a decree As a nation and these are the laws that the Torah is that that national decree of the Jewish people And it's cohesive it it was able to get these people from being the slaves Right if you want to believe in the story right slaves to being kings police officers judges and officers as you stand here today Right be right. Moses's last words. You're standing here as as kings enter into land. How can you do that? How can you go from being nobody to somebody? If that's that in itself it gives Torah gives you that ability Okay, so I have two main things to respond on that in the first I kind of have to address what you've said about the silver union and I would assume you include Mao and Cuba and most of those countries who are atheists and Bulgaria. I believe would be one of them as well so They were not motivated made they were not motivated by their atheism to do those actions It's and it's not part of this discussion So I don't spend too much time on it. However if you look at the values and principles of the various countries if you had to look at it say modern-day Europe or Europe so continent modern-day Europe Had to look at the states, Canada the west the values and principles of western culture Which are decidedly not based on the Bible. They might they may have some overlapping Laws and I don't think we've ever found a society that has said that You may kill other people. You may steal from other people. You may commit a surgery I don't think we found a society that flourishes under them I think some of it's in my neighbors practice some of those Friends of actions and I think we can see where it's got them When it comes to the principles of Soviets the Russians various other communist countries, we've seen What they've tried to enact and those have not been the principles that I would be advocating for And there was the second part where it comes to drawing a blank on this one You're talking about the The Bible and how to bring up I'm sorry. Do you have anything else you want to say on that? It's going to take me a while to come back to that Well, I would you would you say would you say that you you you agree with the principle that the Torah the laws that we We live by as as Jewish people That are that it is in two camps that's there that the the whole scheme which are the you know Don't mix fibers don't mix milk milk and me These things we could put that aside, right? You know keeping Shabbos Okay, do I drive do I not drive that you could put that aside? But the Torah the fundamental principles don't murder don't steal we we have this and we promote this God is a god that promotes these these concepts of Of that we have in all nations today, right? God willing. I hope America Russia today Even Iran we believe in these these moral laws don't kill don't hurt other people What do you say that is still the foundation of of society, right? I would say that but I will say I would also add a clause and say that we don't need A god to know that that's wrong to that is it was our immoral actions to commit murder Would be any moral action. I don't think you need a god to know that Well, I guess I guess I guess you wouldn't need to know. Well I would agree in that principle. I would agree with you. You don't I if you if right I mean it says in the Talmud that if someone walks in up to you and sticks you in the eye Obviously, you could feel a physical reaction. You're gonna know don't don't go around sticking people in their eye, right? Because you're not going to want right hillel the elder Hillel, you know in Judaism in the Talmud it says, you know, whatever you find helpful do not do to another person Someone if someone plagiarized it, I we all know who plagiarized and we know where that but it comes from the Talmud, right that 5000 pce, right Rabbi Hillel said whatever you find hateful do yourself do not do to another person that is fundamental Jewish wisdom How is that not a a principle that all men shouldn't live by that doesn't involve god That doesn't involve anything. I was a Jew coming up with his own hukma Is on sechel to realize that what you what why would I do to someone else what I would find hateful that doesn't even make any sense Well, obviously you don't need god to know that I don't see I don't give them that much credit for being a Jew that came up with that because it would still have the same validity if The Chinese came up with that if the Christians came up with that it doesn't matter who came up with that It's still a sound moral principle So you so would you so you would agree with me that these are these are the fundamental building blocks that we should we should aspire to right at least Right, is this not what the Torah is at least trying to say is it not what Judaism is at least trying to say no Because there's a lot of Torah. There's a lot of Band and immoral things in there and what talking about again keeping koish and we some of fabrics There is for example, there's the burning of the witches Something that any god would have known you shouldn't be doing Because there's no such thing as witchcraft and wizardry that that's not in there There is the treatment of females and second-class citizens that should not be in there There's a lot of there's a lot of good. I'm willing to say there's a lot of good moral things in the Tanakh and throughout even the What's the prophets and the writings? There's a lot of great stuff in there. I'm not going to deny that What I'm going to say is there's a lot of Immoral backwards preachings that are in there and laws and precepts that we would not stand from tolerate today Well, I mean, I guess I guess I would disagree whether or not Whether it's right or wrong to burn people who are who are actively seeking to destroy your nation I mean I I think that's kind of you know It goes a little bit beyond you know beyond the scope of this argument whether or not wishes Are you know, you know, you should be burned at the stake for for disseminate, you know Whatever whatever they do No, I was just they were practicing witchcraft or because something bad happened to someone else and Was done by a certain person and they said oh, that's witchcraft Because back in the day they believed that there were other gods of the gypsons had their own gods They were capable of helping them for magic. We solved that between Aaron Moses Aaron and Right. They do the same thing. I mean that what the the priest You know, it's this is an very ironic Interesting point is that Whatever the Egyptians could do Moses can do right. I mean, you know, they do witchcraft, right? They turn a staff into this snake and Moses says oh, oh, you think you could do witchcraft Oh, here's my staff. Oh, Aaron, give me your staff and and it turns into a steak Right and eats their snake their staff Very serious about that actually happening Well, again, again, I think I think when when we this argument is The stories are fantastic and I think that's what I think that's the the key point is that we have to understand These are stories and the stories are here to help us Trying to analyze the world around us, you know, we we can understand we can get more From learning a story right teaching our kid a bedtime story than then really anything else I would say but Maybe that's what it is. It's a campfire stories and that someone wrote down, you know On the way to Jerusalem to sacrifice in Yom Kippur, maybe Brokashen, whatever the case may be Maybe but I think we might be drifting a bit off topic because the topics was to be but God I got it more Yeah, you guys, uh, let's uh, let's go for about another 10 minutes because we're already Almost an hour in that way. We'll save 20 or 30 minutes for the q&a I I like that. Thank you. All right, perfect. Everybody, uh, make sure and tag me with your questions if you have any For the q&a. Thanks. Go ahead So, David, I have to ask you but you you you claim to be an atheist You don't you don't accept that Hashem even exists. You don't even believe that he's a god So how could a god that you don't believe exists is even being walled to begin with Unless when we start there Friend, that's fine. I don't mind that things if we're gonna have the discussion I came to discussion having to say, okay, let's for the sake of the argument and for the sake of time I'm going to accept that God does exist and I'm going to accept that The stories in the Tanakh are true. Otherwise, we wouldn't get anywhere And we'll remember this entirely mute. I'm saying that let's take it on the Supposition that there is a god he exists and this book and what he's been doing with lack of action Is his character And this is why is that if he does exist If he does exist Then this is not Immoral god. This is an immoral god. We should not be worshiping And that actually does remind me what I wanted to say where it comes where he's talked about pray Either you pray and you worship God and you are blessed or you essentially ignore God and Your feels like fellow That is very smooth to the mafia about saying that either you pay me some protection money Or I will burn down your store Which again, it's not immoral thing to do. That's very moral to do Okay, I can understand the perspective you're coming from I like it. I dig it. I understand I think when when we realize as jewish people We we understand that everything disseminates from from hasham and I I think it's almost like understanding that you know I I think of that when I when you first when you said that I thought I thought of that I can't enable actually havel and abel Where you know If you have if you have the mindset, you know that you know, I You know, it is all my It's all my doing that I why should I give anything over right? I mean that's that was the attitude of kane right kane when god asked for a sacrifice kane said Why should I why should I give god anything? It wasn't god who planted the seeds. It wasn't god who watered the soil You know, it was it was all me that I did it That did all this work and I produced fruit and now this person that did not do nothing Want something and of and an able Havel he says, you know, if I Completely opposite attitude and it's in both opinions are right when you think about it His attitude was well if god didn't create the sheep, I wouldn't have sheep to begin with So, you know what hasham take even my best sheep because without you they wouldn't be sheep So I I think the answer is it depends on the perspective that you have if you believe That everything you have is a bracha and a blessing from hasham You're going to be more than willing to give everything over to hasham because you're going to realize that You wouldn't have anything to even begin with you wouldn't even have life. You wouldn't even exist But if you have the attitude that it's all your it's all you're doing It's all because of of the blood that flows through your veins. That's exactly what god was telling avraham Lacha leave your father's house your native land go to where I show you and the whole story of avraham again The attitude of of pre flood and the palace flood like that generational leap that I was talking about that that new wisdom That's coming on that avraham is is going to understand that it's it's it's it's not This this product this thing that's going to take one day to happen This this thinking is going to take time to change people people are slow to change the what the way they think It took how many how long before people realized that you shouldn't own other people And mind you judy mind you that the Talmud outlawed judy outlawed slavery Thousands of years Before you know people always people talk about who was the first one to bet you know get rid of slavery No one ever talks about the Talmud and how it criticizes slavery, you know, you know No, go ahead. No, go ahead. Jump in. I'm fine. The thing is thanks to this 21 It says exactly how you treat your state at nowhere from genesis to malachite Does it say do not enslaved that says you may own slaves and this is how you treat them And this is how you treat male slaves. This is like female slaves. This is how you treat jewish slaves as I treat female female slaves Gentiles And in that even in there, that's a very moral system that this has been set up there And if you're gonna say that comes from god god allows that system, I would say that's a very moral system because it is From if I'm remember correctly It's exodus 21 21 where it says that if you beat your slave But he does not die It's all good. I call sabbaba Because he is your property Which I I would say excuse me That is not something that is not that is not a moral command. That is very immoral To allow it so the time would never say that's not kosher in retrospect that probably shouldn't have happened But it's still remains part of the tanakh Okay, so I just want to I just want to say here and I always get hate for saying this But the Torah is is the first and only document that actually gave slaves rights If you actually think about this um that people To even say that a slave had any sort of intrinsic rights Would have been absurd. You tell a roman that you should treat your your you know, the captured slave from from asyria With respect You would look at you like what are you? What are you something mentally ill the the Torah actually gives us legal definitions of of the what the what the word slave is what the word master is They get they gives us definitions for these things actually code to live by Which is a Again a revolutionary concept that we never seen before and again never seen anything like it the Torah Trumps everything. No, not to use the word trump. I don't want to trigger anybody But it goes over everything the Torah is the first on the scene the last in the scene You're not going to get anything better than that. Not only that When you think about it You know, again, I do want to clarify. Yes, even though there are laws in the Talmud and in in the in Uh, you know mission a Torah about how you treat slaves and stuff The final ruling is slavery is outlawed. You can you can never bring back slavery. So we did eventually get there Yes in Leviticus and Exodus and and numbers and Deuteronomy and Genesis and all those beautiful books It's pretty rough. I hear you you got to take, you know, going to be slaves. You can kill them It's actually rough. I mean that's a Jewish slave where you can't you know, if you beat him and he doesn't die It's okay. But a goi that there is no real Penalty, I would say that's still moral that's still why even allow slavery from the get go should have been your space for for 400 years in Egypt Don't do this. That's now instead of you instead of saying to your slaves in Asia. So you do So you still understand that so you still recognize that Hashem understand that slavery was wrong Then why did he why what why did why did Hashem free up people? He's fine with it to happen He was okay with it Ah, no, okay. So he allowed Jews to become slaves because they committed sins. They no, no It was saying that slavery is okay by it. He doesn't mind slavery That's what he's saying the bottom line is in Leviticus and in Exodus God is saying slavery is okay. You might be saying you have to treat your slaves a certain way But you're still allowed to have slaves. You're still allowed to own people as property Well, to be fair that my fault and final comments on this is that we do And from a Jewish perspective, God puts people into two categories slaves and masters And the only way it's not really translatable into modern-day English The only thing you can equivalently I know this is going to be a kind of a softball here, but it's almost like the word employee and employer Slaves were workers. They were they were workers for the for the for the employee They were employees of the employer We both know that's not And I know he's it was a softball But okay, but you can see that you can see the way they treat it. I mean, I mean Avraham's faithful slave. Why did he why did why did why did the evi melik? Sojourn, uh, whatever his name is. I'm his name is escaping me. Sojourn with Avraham All his life and did the will of of Avraham. He could have left any time According to Jewish law a slave all he has to do is say the shema and he's free of slavery So so Judaism allows for for people to be free from slavery instantaneously. All you have to do is convert the Judaism I'm certain that there were nice slave monsters. I'm sure that in american slavery. There was some Nice slave monsters that were being feared in front between Doesn't change the fact that slavery in and of itself is immoral and that it was allowed It's two categories master and slave just, you know, the servant and master Maybe you don't let the word slave, but a servant, you know, some translations It looks all good in his property Um in extra 21 it says that you can beat your slave or he is your property It literally says the word property Absolutely, absolutely that in the english translation. I will admit that but that's not what the actual Hebrew says I mean if you if you read it as a Hebrew It's it's not property as in if you own like again the concept of ownership again Hashem owns everything. Hashem. Hashem is the the real slave master If you think you're the slave master well get when you when you meet him upstairs Then you're gonna be rude awakening about who the real slave master is but At the end of the day, I have some serious issues with that because I am no one slave. I am I'm free Amen, I agree with that. No, but you're saying that God is my owner. It's my master that I'm his slave I'm supposed to be a slave and I fully and wholly reject them It depends again It's about the perspective that you look like if you if you if you believe that if you like kane And you believe that it's all you and you do it all you're as yourself. That's a right way of looking at It's true. He did literally put the seed in the ground. He did literally oil water the soil but if you look at it like like Havel like able that it really he wouldn't have anything if it wasn't for Hashem It depends on what you how you look at it, you know If you think if you think you only get the crumbs from the from the master You're just walking through earth as this as this employee of the earth of the garden That's one way of looking at it. It's not necessarily right. It's not necessarily wrong It's just that's the terminology that the bible puts things in people the bible puts things in the slave master That's the employee employer It's just a simple way to codify Guys now might be a good time to maybe wrap up So how about this? How about I give each of you guys like one minute a piece to kind of wrap up your main points and kind of give a conclusion Good, uh, I think I went first. I think John maybe can go at last this time So I guess I like the the the discussion I I think David was a mensch and he was a very nice gentleman and I love to you know talk to him again um So my final statements is that you know Again, just really I feel like I'm a broken record I mean if you if you live by torii and you can clearly see that that tora makes you a better person, you know if you just go by If you just you can see the progress that that the torah has made when you when you start that very first day of Bereshi chapter one verse one all the way to that last chapter of deuteronomy 31 Or if you do the Old Testament the tanakh all the way to malachi You can see a huge progress that's taken place that that it's not just simple transformation overnight that these people Again the really eighter really Moses's final speech that you you were one slaves in egypt How you treat your again, you know the israel has a commandment love love the stranger love the garrom Love the orphan the love the widow because you were orphans you were widows you were strangers in a strange land You were you were abused by by the nations the nations treat you like garbage So don't do that don't treat the nations like that because you were you're you're in their own you're in their house You don't do it when you're there in your house So again, it really either really iterating what i'm saying is this it's just the morality is there the the ethics and values are there You just have to look for it. You just have to see it All right Yeah, from my side, I would say is that following the morals of The tanakh would be a very bad way to go about creating society I think that some of the incidents incidents that i've mentioned and brought up Which shows that on the whole the god of the hebris is not an entirely moral Character that if you do want to build a moral society, it would perhaps be best to build it on western Values and philosophies and then principles of enlightenment. Um That's what i have to say. Yeah, so we can go into cune I believe All right. Thanks so much for that We do have quite a few questions here. Uh, I'll go ahead and get to the super chats first so With that first we had a super chat from joshua larson says Who's the dollar store james coons? Thanks, man, you know, uh, right. I totally agree with him actually james is a much better host, but James just can't do it all the time. We have to give james a break at some point. So, um Yeah, you have to put up with me All right, uh, joshua larson again five dollar super chat. Thanks so much for your super chat says Can you guys release a sign language version of this episode asap? I couldn't catch everything james was saying Yeah, sorry about that. Um had a couple of technical difficulties actually Uh, this uh, we had some time Changes as well from uh from nine to eight. So Um Next we had a super chat from john rap Thanks for your two dollar super chat says um Worst I think it's supposed to be meme. I've seen this morning Uh Gordon yeah mate. I'm not sure what that means But maybe that's supposed to say good day mate, uh, but I think he's referring to The picture of myself and steve mccray. Thanks so much for that James for making that a thing on the internet. All right Brian steven says if we get 50 likes converse contender We'll have happiness for the rest of his life make it happen chat That's good advice go and hit that like button and subscribe if you haven't already You know you're gonna want to because we have a lot of interesting discussions coming up And every time I turn I turn around and look at the emails or talk to james It's like we have bigger and bigger debates all the time. It's just incredible Um, the way this channel is growing. All right. Joshua larson. Thanks again for your other five dollar super chat says An anagram for james a coons is junk amazes Take from that what you will just friendly ribbing. Love the show. Well, we appreciate your Contributions, josh. What thanks much um Next we have will kin k. Thanks for your five dollar super chat says does hashim command any other father to kill their son in the Torah Maybe that's there are some I think it's in a second. Um Personals tanker months where god commands um the parents to redeem their first form Which can be interpolated in a few different ways All right. Thanks so much for that Uh, next we have a two dollar super chat from praise. I am that I am says Jeremiah 31 31 as a jew sacrifices in heaven Now he made a correction to that with another super chat. Thanks for your other two dollar super chat praise says oops I mean Isaiah 55 3 sacrifices In heaven as a jew question mark. I think that's for john Uh, yes, there are sacrifices in heaven. Yeah, absolutely Okay, thanks so much for that all right, we have Another two dollar super chat from josh will larson I am the josh soros of this program. Thanks so much for that We we definitely need it. Um We'll move on. Vince went uh, Vincent roo. Oh, or raw raw. Well, however you pronounce that Um, forgive me if I pronounced it wrong Uh says given the fluctuation in ethics Law and morality from biblical times to now Is this topic even really valid when approached from this angle? What do you guys think? Repeat that question one more time Yeah, sure. It's uh, given the fluctuation in ethics law and morality from biblical times to now Is this topic even really valid when approached from this angle? I think he's saying like, hey, look, we have an antiquated view of history people kind of look back at uh at history with 2020 goggles on You know, I think that's what he's saying is from this angle is it really even valid to look back on and judge uh So what do you guys think? I think the shorter answer is yeah, I think you I think he's right I would say he's wrong because If you're gonna be basing your the way you want to make your country and make laws and if you base it based it off the tanakh It would be a very oppressive society. Um, I know that we have Few sections in jr. Islam where the ultra orthodox want to have their own state and rules Which would not be fantastic. I would not like that country And I think it could also be extended to the states and how they would want to Create laws talking about mostly the christians communities there in the states All right. Thanks so much for that. Um Next super chat we have is from roi lindsey says have you ever seen spaghetti come from non spaghetti? I think that was just a joke about uh Some of the arguments for god's existence All right. Thanks so much for that super chat. Uh, vincent roi all again five dollar super chat. Thanks so much. He says I just want to thank the participants for being reasonable and making this a good healthy debate And not an argument Thanks so much for that. I agree with that. Thank you john. I'd say thank you very much to john Yes, you guys get a david It's been a really interesting conversation and um Now brian stevens ask um brian's a patreon, uh it says I don't understand why people do certain things. Why is it wrong to say god's name? Why is it wrong to eat milk and cheese? is it Uh, is it the boiling in milk verse question mark? I think he's asking because you're using the term hashim He's saying is it why is it wrong to say god's name and then why is it wrong to eat milk and cheese? So it's a prohibition of torah from you can't say god's name. You're it's a violation of Of torah jewish law jew is not allowed to say god's name It's all it's like calling it's like it's like a son or a daughter calling their mother and father Something other than mom and dad, you know, you wouldn't call your your mother and father about their first name So why would you why would you for god is their first name? All right. Thanks so much for that. Did you I'd like to just add two things to that Um, I agree with john when it comes to using the name But I also think it means don't use god's name to justify any moral actions When it comes to the whole coach thing milk and meat It takes a certain kind of mind to milk a cow and then kill its calf and Cook that calf in the mother's milk. I think it does It seems and it's no way to base morals and ethics, but it seems a bit Off to do something like that All right, thanks so much for that response. I appreciate that Tim doran says covers would you ask john Why god would use bears to kill 42 children after they tease someone for being bald second kings to 23 I wouldn't know why you have to you you have to ask the prophet The navy why he uh, why he asked god to send the bear. All right, thanks so much for that What what does it I think it actually gives a reason doesn't it say uh, why uh, oh because he teased him right, right? Yeah, and I don't I don't think it says they they that they were killed I think it says they were they were mauled that that makes any difference. I'm not sure but There you go. Thanks so much for that. Uh, we have vesper Says comers. Can you ask john if god utilizes the golden rule? In his moral decision-making or is it arbitrarily based on his word because utilizing the principle Of reciprocity doesn't require god Right what I was trying to illustrate before that that Judaism the town would which is that's where that the golden rule is not That actually the golden rule. Um, it's actually the civil rule That's actually in the town without you know hundreds of years before the person who said it plagiarized it um I won't mention his name. Uh, you make shamo um, that uh, that is what Judaism these these rabbis these judges these sages Are basing their halakhic decisions on principles of how to treat other people so Judaism These these laws of for the nation Yes, the foundation is everything is from god. They believe in hashen. They believe in god But these are laws for the people. It's like the supreme court making the decision and rulings These are the supreme court and they're making rulings and we have to live by them And their rulings are just as if god made these rulings that the rabbis rulings are are the same as god's rulings All right. Thanks so much for that iron charioteer ask um Converse can you ask john? What is the true origin of the jewish hebra religion? um So from a secular point of view you do have jp What is it yj? Uh, pd, right? Uh, Jehovah Yahweh as priests leased source and deuteronomy Um, so that I mean, that's a good question. Um, I I can't exactly answer it from the sec That's a secular point of view. That's where they believe that Torah is not holy. They people who are In the secular world don't believe any cry the Torah is garbage to them and they believe that it's man made It's all made up. That's one way of looking at it. I don't I as an orthodox Jew I believe that it came from Hashem Hashem's word. It's literally word of Hashem given the Moses and Moses gave it to the jewish people All right. Thanks so much for that. We have a another super chat from jake4d Thanks so much for your five dollar super chat says the Torah is not the only first or best To give slaves rights seven years for hebra slaves Other religions gave three years to release slaves at the same time Okay, fair enough. I I would I would go I would lean towards Hashem's wisdom I think Hashem is as the ultimate wisdom. I think that Hashem understands And gave these ability if you believe in it from a secular point of view that Hashem made it all up He's he you know these people, you know came up with the religion. Okay They use their wisdom to to finalize these laws But I believe that Hashem is an equal judge a just judge and that would have seven years would have been the Just decision for a slave to be free. All right. Thanks so much for that response, we have One more question Unless anybody else has anything to ask Let's see tad ner btc ask What about child mutilation? I'm not sure because I really didn't have any contacts. I'm not sure what it's about He's talking about the general commutation So Okay I just meant. Yeah, I understand that I just like he said what about it. I'm not sure exactly what Is he saying? Maybe I don't consider circumcision mutilation mutilation by definition is to mutilate one's body look up in the english dictionary What mutilate means circumcision is a healthy medical procedure that is to be done on male babies or you can do it as an adult I had it done as a adult Completely normal complete rational not mutilation not by definition It would be and that's what I said. It's there's no medical reason given for circumcision when god was speaking to abram It was this is just to be a sign of the covenant that you will take a big-tailed baby and circumcise it All right. Thanks so much for that. Sorry. Um, I actually um gave jake 40 40s question He says that it was a Other regions that gave three years to release slaves at the time Uh, not other religions, but other regions. So Thanks for that clarification jake 40 and I believe let's see Make sure there's nothing else. Okay. Looks like iron charioteer wants to know ask john Did jews have any connection to the persian empire and zoroastrians As far as I know, they were like monotheists, weren't they? They were they had the concept of there's one deity that that's a supreme deity over all of the deities Or all other entities in the world or however you want to word it That's I don't know if they have a connection. They might have they might have met them Or I think what I was asking is were they influenced was judeism influence Were the hebris influenced by that religion and what was that religion influenced by judeism perhaps Well, that's that's a question for someone who's a secularist someone who believes in a secular perspective of tor Obviously, I believe that there is no Um, obviously they weren't influenced All right. Thanks so much for that response. We just had a super chat roll in two dollars from movie theory Thank you so much for your super chat. We appreciate all of the contributions from everyone and Also, if you haven't yet hit that like button and subscribe Because this will be our last question All right, movie theory says actually it's a it's not a question. It's a comment says Atheism is still a joke as always lol Thanks so much for that and with that. I'll wind up With that, I just want to say thanks to john. Thanks to david Thanks to uh all the uh people in the live chat for being here and keeping us entertained in the chat And everyone who's going to watch this after the fact Thanks so much for being here and supporting the channel and as always keep sifting the reasonable from the unreasonable