 Back here to Segal Talks at the Martinis Segal Theater Center, the Graduate Center CUNY, the public university here in the great city of New York in Midtown, which is most like a ghost town compared to normal, but 20 million tourists are missing. Every second store has been closed and our university has been closed and artists are not back to work. We yesterday had a big conversation with Jay Wegman from NYU, he thinks he will also not be able to present anything the next spring. These things, most theaters will not open before next fall and it might take in his three to five years so we get back to perhaps where we were. It's a confusing time as we always do say here, it doesn't get any better. Everything is heating up like in a pressure cooker with Trump, the election, the corona spiking. And as we have done over all these months, we turn to artists and to hear from them, to help us to create meaning, to know where we come from, where we are and where we are going to, they are close to the moment they anticipate the future. And after talking for four months to artists in the traditional sense, we now include thinkers, producers, curators, who in our view are artists, they are doing artistic work, they collage, like Rauschenberg taught us in the 20th century, the great art and they put things together in one of the masters in my mind, of the collaging of the curating of the producing and is Anne Hamburger. And she's with us today from On Guard Arts, which she created Anne. Welcome, thank you very much. Anne prepared a little video, so we will see a little bit inside an idea for an idea of the significant important work, what she did. Also, anticipating changes in the field of theater, but really working for throwing her body into the life, as Pasolini said, to make things happen. Very few words, she created On Guard Arts in 85 and she pioneered the site-specific theater work in New York City. There was a bit also dancing in the street, who I mentioned yesterday of Elise Bernard, but On Guard Arts really planted the big flag after 13 years she left New York to became the artistic director of Majola Playhouse. And then she worked for the Disney Creative Corporation for many years and created, was responsible also for significant music of like Porgy and Bass and Hayar Revival and Aladin. There was all the complication that's come out of these productions. Throwing her short-term at Majola Shed, she also developed Thoroughly Modern Millie, which became a big thing. Frank, I didn't do hair revival, sorry. I was globally in charge of all of the state-host parades. But she started here in New York with legendary production, the Riza Abdul production. My father was a peculiar man. It was a sensation when it happened. She did arrest us. She did the Trojan women. She did Wasteland with Fiona Shaw. She did Red Hills. She did incredible productions outside, on the streets. And then she came back to New York and now speaking up and where she left, she created work that had to be premiered at BAM and the Kennedy Center. Her plays about how the war impacts families and Fandango for butterflies and many, many others. And now she has the series Uncommon Voices, which she puts together and many, many other things. So before we go into all of it, and she has been really highly recognized, six OB awards, two drama desks, auto-critic award, the Reveynold Award, and the Booth Award from the Graduate Center, by the way. So, and show us, I think, if someone put together a little, a little real of your work, what you did. Great, hi everybody. I wish I could see all of your lovely, wonderful faces for wherever you are in New York or around the world. And I'm glad Zoom can bring us together. And I really look forward to a day when we can come together in real space and time. But in the meantime, thank you, Frank, for having me. And I'm just gonna show you a short retrospective video of Angart Arts before we launch into our conversation. So here we go. So the last decade or so, Anne Amberger has been making theater in the most unlikely places. The far side, the fringe, the margin. Peer from the pier, the lady of liberty. You are now at the edge of the city. I'm the boy. I know so far away. She has imagination as big as all our doors. God, I love that rainbow. The day that's from the sky has come in a way. I want to light a rainbow. I'm just running it in. Y'all know what you're doing? How about you? With the help of Anne Amberger, we have come to understand more about the illusory quality of the city and more about the possibilities of theater on location. As an Afghanistan, all I wanted to do was come back to America. Then when I got home to America, there was this empty theater. I was in the 40 cities and it most recently went to Fort Clinton, from Green, Texas, because the army can't figure out how to stop its bill and soldiers from committing suicide. We put forward with the show for over 2,500 soldiers and the army did a study after we left and found that there was a 36% reduction in stigma towards mental health services because of our show. Do you think it would be a good thing for us to continue this show and other installations, as my family and friends, yes or no? Yes, yes. Open the doors, please. I remember when I said goodbye to my grandmother. I said, I'm leaving. I'm going to New York. She said, why are you going there? Your life is going to be gone. She said, when someone goes there, they never come back. That's the last time I saw her. I've always been fascinated by the intersection of art with the public. And I've really diverted my whole life to busting out of the ivory tower, as it were, and bringing people together, not normally in conversation. Inventor, I love inventing things. I love doing the impossible. I don't take no for an answer. And my philosophy about producing is, learn the right way to do things and then when that doesn't work, do whatever it takes. Oh, here we go. Anne, thank you for that, for the clip and hooding it with it. Just shows this incredible split, what you did, working on the street, site-specific, pioneering a form that has become a significant force in the theater will be even more important. And I think in the time we live in, but always has been and maybe is the very, very root of where we all come from in this field of thousands of years ago. Incredible work, Enboga, Charles Me, Riza Abdu, you did, and then working also was in the corporate environment where you did a brilliant work. And now you said, I do come back to New York and I continue what perhaps was your first love. So tell us, why did you come back to New York City and, but first of all, where are you and how are you doing? Well, I'm in Brooklyn. I love New York. New York is my heart and soul, really. And I had a great run at Disney. I mean, I learned a tremendous amount. I was able to mount shows all over the world. But I grew to be very, very hard sick about not really being in the theater. I started on Goddard to 85. I'm probably one of the only people in the United States who started a not-for-profit theater twice because I started it again in 2014. And there was a lot I was able to do at Disney, but it still was a corporate environment. And my charge, predominantly, was bringing the films to life in terms of the state shows, the parades, the daytime and nighttime spectacles all over the world. So there got to be a point as much as crazy as it sounds where I'm running this global division and I was bored because I'm a change agent. I think that's the way I would define myself. And I got to the point where I couldn't really make any more change. They wouldn't let me go any further. And so when I came back to New York, I was like, I've been gone for over a decade. I always think that when people are creating work, they not only have to think about what the idea is about the particular piece, but they have to be an artist of and are hyper-conscious about what's going on in the world around them. What is New York City and what it was in 85 and 90, and 95 was very different than what it was when I came back in 2014. And so I was very interested in creating multidisciplinary theatrical productions and working in theaters for a while, which is what I did. But honestly, when the pandemic happened and everything was shut down, as we know, I said to myself, okay, hamburger, you know how to do this. Storytelling is not dependent on theaters. It's not dependent on owning real estate. Storytelling is dependent on artists to tell stories and an audience to hear them. And so it's time to circle back around to my roots and start thinking about how to create shows and tell stories using the city as our stage. What do you think about New York in the moment when you go through the streets? I think it's not specific to New York. I think we're all doing the best we can. And but it's sad. I mean, I think the fact that as human beings, we have been so isolated and so cut off from one another is I'm sure going to have psychological effects for many, many years. I mean, artists are nothing if not determined. And so they're starting to figure it out. I mean, there are many, many artists who said, okay, I'm going to put everything I do online. There are some people, especially the larger organizations that really can't pivot as easily, who really are in a place of stasis and trying to figure out how to hold on to as many staff people as they can. And but that feeling like they have to wait till a vaccine comes out. And then, you know, there are small independent organizations like Concord Arts. We're much more nimble. I mean, I think my lucky stars have a very small staff and no real estate. You know, people are out there. New Yorkers are conscientious. So we're in much better shape than many other cities and in the country because, you know, most people are wearing their masks and really trying to be respectful of this horrible disease that we're in the midst of. So, you know, for me, I didn't want to put everything I did online. I didn't want to go online and put everything I did online. I think it's a fundamentally different medium than my theater. Some of the stuff has been good. Some of it has been not so good. But, you know, just kudos to anyone who's pressing forward as we're all trying to do. There's some very innovative efforts online as well. But I just said, live is possible if we stop, if we pivot and we say, how can we use the city as our state? And just this past weekend, I did, I produced a show called Wordtime Canteen for a New Era. And David Greenspan has a wonderful downtown performer performed on my stoop, the stoop of my Brownstone. And we had, we worked with the street activity permits office and we worked with the police department that was wonderful. And we had 50 people standing in the street on X's that were six feet apart. And you cannot believe how thankful and grateful people were to come out and see something in the flesh, right? For me, it was an experiment. Like, I didn't know what was going to happen. I didn't know if we were going to be able to, we basically did something kind of funny. We had reservation system. Well, you can't really reserve the street. But we did have a reservation system. So when we reached 50 for each performance, we did three of them. We said we were sold out. And so people came and their reservation got them an X on the street, which was really great. And then there were all these people walking by who decided to hang out and stay, two older ladies who loved David's music so much. They just came all three times. It was wonderful. So now is the time, if there was ever a time to begin to think differently about what we do, it's now. Because the world is fundamentally changed and it ain't going back to the way it was. And neither are the arts. And so we have to really be using this as an opportunity to say between COVID and Black Lives Matter demonstrations and the economy and the election and everything that's impacting our lives right now. We have to say, what can we envision theater looking like in ways that it's never looked before? What are new ways to get money? What are new ways to support artists? I mean, as a creative producer and an artist myself, I really have not asked anybody to do anything for free. I know there are a lot of people doing that, but I just feel like even though it was a token fee that I gave to David and Jamie Barnes as a ranger, I just feel like there's so many artists that are suffering and struggling and can't pay their rent. The gig economy, people that were acting in downtown shows and doing bartending at night are really struggling. So for me, to be able to say to artists for this and two other shows I can talk about, I want to hire you. I want to pay you. I've got a date for the first show that's going to be happening during COVID. I've done the research with my staff as to what doing a show during COVID looks like. So I think it's safe or as safe as anything can be. It's a gift to the community, I think. I mean, I sent to one artistic director with theater once, you just rip all your seats out and do journey pieces in theater. So for instance, one of the shows that we're working on right now is a show called A Dozen Dreams. So I've asked a dozen playwrights they're all women, they're predominantly BIPOC artists, to share with me what they're dreaming about right now and to share it and to write something that's three minutes long. And I've lined up this phenomenal group of playwrights, everybody from Pulitzer Prize winners like Martina Meijer, to young upstarts like Sam Chance, to Lucy Thurber, to Ellen McLaughlin, to Rendaris Santiago, all these amazing writers who are sharing with me what they're dreaming about. And then we are bringing that to life through sets, lights, video and sound. And each writer is going to have their own kind of room installation where you'll hear their dream being spoken. And it's being brought to life by an amazing group of designers. Right now we're looking at the feasibility of doing that in a tent downtown. We're not sure that the tent can happen but we're shooting for April. And the way that would work is the audience would start to pulse through like maybe at noon and every three minutes two more people would come through. So we can be socially distant, abide by COVID regulations and do something that's a way back to the theater that can happen now. I'm working with John Eisner, the artistic director of the Lark who's been wonderful in terms of bringing a bunch of these writers to me. And he's been a great friend that I've developed over COVID times. He's been a COVID, he's my new COVID best friend. So I'm very excited about that. And then we're also going to be doing a site-specific festival in December. The second weekend of December, 11th, 12th and 13th, it's being sponsored by the Knee Packing Business Improvement District. And we will have over a dozen artists performing in empty storefronts. Mimi Lien is going to do an amazing immersive installation. And we have amazing performers. Erin Markey is going to perform in a storefront window and the extraordinary machine Dazzle who does all of Taylor Mac's costumes is going to be doing an installation in a storefront and Jeanette Yew, the puppetry artist, Whitney White is going to be performing. We have just an incredible lineup of all of these people who will, two bands. So Nona Hendricks is performing with her band on Sunway Padilla. It was in our Fendango show. So we're getting these artists out into the world. We're going to be doing it safely. They're getting money. We're getting money from a new source. And it's so interesting that a business improvement district fails that they want to do this because the arts can be a driver of economic development. It's about time. So, you know, it's, you know, I just figured it out. And the only way I figured it out was to say, okay, let's turn everything up on its heads and figure out what can we do? And it sets, it's very, very impressive. And, you know, just say you also back it up. Just to repeat, you said to theaters should rip their seats out to quote you. So what needs to change? You said things are no longer how they have already changed. What needs to change to reflect that? What needs to be done? I mean, I think there's, you know, I would hate to make blanket statements that apply to everyone because there isn't one way. Yeah, I've always, I've always felt that creatively when people say, well, what's right and what's wrong? I'm like, it's like therapists, you know, they want to tell you what's right or what's wrong. But I do think, first of all, the funding, the way foundations and even the government work is very inefficient and there are many, many, many, many ways in which it's very problematic. I think the more enlightened funders are seeing that. I think, you know, in the not-for-profit arts, we're in a situation where we have to spend sometimes hours and hours and hours and hours filling out grant applications where if we don't get it, we basically have contributed hours and hours and hours and hours and get nothing. And I once went to a grant makers in the arts meeting and one of the women on the stage said, well, you know, artists are irresponsible. They shouldn't be producing shows before they know they have all the money in hand. And it just infuriated me. And the reason why it infuriated me is because I would never produce anything if that was the way, you know, I mean, when you have to wait eight months to find out if you get a $10,000 grant or, you know, in some cases longer, even the turnaround time for the National Down for the Arts. And I love them. They're doing the best they can. But, you know, it's so crazy how long you have to wait before you find out if you got money. You can't wait that long before you start planning and developing work and creating work or you'll never get anything done. And besides, it's what if you're presenting work and you're out looking at brilliant, wonderful people who already have something done, that's one model. But if you're developing work from the ground up, like Concord Arts does predominantly, I mean, we're not for this festival, but when we do our big shows like Fandango, Fandango took us two and a half years. And I always feel also that when you start a show, you have a big idea, you assemble artists, you start working on it, and there's a period of time where it's a mess. It always is a mess. And then you go, you all sit around, you have these intense conversations, and you go, what's going on? Why does this not lift off? What do we need to do to get it to lift off? And then you change a few things, and then it starts to lift off, sometimes it doesn't. But that is a process that takes time. When we did Fandango for Butterflies and Coyotes by with an amazing Latinx team, Andrea Tome wrote it, Jose Zayas directed it, and Sunwe Padilla did the music. We were really struggling because it was based on interviews with undocumented immigrants, and it wasn't lifting off. And then Sunwe came up with this brilliant idea, and he said, let's turn the whole thing into a Fandango. A Fandango is a celebration of music and dance that was used as a protest movement, actually, that hails from Veracruz, Mexico. And the minute we did that, it just went, and it lifted off. So there were workshops we did, and meetings we did where we invited people, and they left going, well, this sucks, and we felt so too. That's always tricky to know when you invite people into your process. But by the time we got to opening night, I was so proud of it. We had a standing ovation first preview. I've never had that happen. I just burst into tears. And the other piece of this is that we really wanted to make sure that we go to all five boroughs because we wanted to make sure we reached Latinx audiences, audiences that struggled with English. It was done in both English and Spanish. And we were in the midst of our five boroughs when we got shut down by COVID. We literally were loading into our show in the Bronx. And this was a show that performed in the big space at La Mama, the 190 seats space at La Mama, sold out. And then when we went to Staten Island, Snug Harbor Cultural Center, we were in a 65 seat space with no set, almost no lights, very little sound and no projections. And it was so... And everybody came for free there. So, and it was so beautiful time. And that's why I loved also what we did with David, the people on the street who came and just stopped by and sold us. That's part of what's always made me tick. How do you get people in don't normally come to the theater, right? Because we spent so much time talking to ourselves. And it's worthwhile to give artists support in early stages of development and super important. And at that time, it's okay to have an audience of friends and colleagues who understand process. But once you get to opening night, to me, it's so important to figure out how to get out of the kind of liberal cocoon and bubble. That's why I love going to this mill for hood. Those guys would never in a million years come see my show and bam. But they all raise their hands that they loved it. So, those are the kinds of things that make me tick. Yeah, that's it. I think there's just something very, very significant. I remember M. Bogart who was on our talk, where by the way, you started your career out as a performer for a company, if I read that right. And I also understand you were inspired by Lent Art, like the spiral jetty, which is interesting that something clicked in your mind about the land, the streets, the landscape, the city's capes and art. So, it's that significant contribution that art has made change our form. But I would like to say, so you always get the fact, but I get out, rip the seats out and go out on the street, go out and place it. When I say rip the seats up, don't get me wrong. I don't mean destroy the tear down theaters. I'm not at all saying that. I'm just saying like, if you, and maybe this isn't even, it's terrible to give people advice when you don't know what really is involved. So they're probably people that will hate me for saying this. Like, you don't know what I have to do with it. But if you have a theater, that has, let's say, several spaces, and you could take the seats out, and that would enable you to kind of bring theater artists in in a limited way and do some kind of journey piece that would enable you to produce between now and the time the vaccine comes out, and would enable you to produce in such a way that, you know, you could have people seeing a scene in one room and a scene in another room and a scene in another room. There may be a way forward that way for a period of time rather than just keeping the building closed. Now, I know there's all kinds of problems with HVAC and, you know, special kind of COVID circulation systems and stuff like that. So, you know, it's great, you know, it's great to have an idea when you don't own a space. So I don't mean any disrespect. But listen, to artists, you know, whether they're from Lebanon or Egypt, whether it was in Latin America and Chile or whether it was in Africa, in Rwanda, everybody said, let's get out of the spaces, let's go into the streets in small spaces, have small audiences, as you said, about Staten Island, that is perhaps more significant. They have also to do it. They said, we never had all the luxuries you guys have in Western theater. We always did that, but it works. And I think Anne, you found something that worked it's over decades early on. And I would like also to reinforce that, you know, she said, you know, what do you write in your mission? She said, we have to be passionate about the subject. So it's meaningful for the artists, but also... I've been writing about change. I've been working on this document about change saying, how does one create change, right? And so it's very fresh on my mind. And I think it's complicated, obviously. I think first is one has to have a vision for what that change might be. And I don't think the vision needs to be figured out because I think when you first start something, you don't know the answers. So it takes courage. That's one thing. It takes a compelling personality so that you can bring others along with you, right? Because if you have an idea for change, but you don't know how to articulate it, you're not gonna be successful. And then you have to figure out if you're within an existing organization, are the people who are there, are the players who are there going to support what your ideas are, your vision are? Your ideas are, your vision are, is for change. And I say in any organization, I think people fall into essentially three groups. They fall into the group that is like, yes, change, let's go. I'm excited. Then there's a whole bunch of people who sit in the middle who are kind of offensive. So they're like, I'm not sure if this will work. This won't work. It scares me a little bit. I'm not quite sure. And then there are the people who are adamantly against it. And so if you think about within an organization, those three groups of people, the first group of people, you absolutely want to hold close to you because you want that they're your support system. The people in the middle, you want to get the first group in yourself to try to convert them. And then if you do that, then they say or you can kind of pull along. But in order for that to work, you have to have enough power and authority within the organization to make all that happen. If you don't have an organization, then you have the artistic vision that you have. And then there's a managerial support system that you need to develop. And those two things need to function hand in hand because if you have the vision, but you don't know how to assemble the resources, change won't happen. And then I think also it's important to recognize that this is very important to me, that when one is debating differences and ideas, one needs to do it with respect. And one needs to listen to make sure that you're really taking into account what other people are saying. I mean, one of the most resistant, why this is doing this, excuse me, I don't know if it's important. I turned off my phone, I don't know. One of the most resistant places for change was Disney theme parks and resorts when I came in. And I never would have been able to accomplish what I accomplished if I hadn't committed a very high level. I came in as an executive vice president, no corporate experience, went from naked men running around meat lockers with razor toes, feet in the meat baggy district to La Jolla for a year to all of a sudden running a global division for Disney. It was like, it's Halloween and I've dressed up as a corporate executive. Okay. And then the other thing is, I have a lot of courage and I believe in being forthright and honest with people about what I believe. And I kind of, I always say no means yes until proven otherwise. So I'm a rule breaker. You know, I was like, well, you have a rule. This is what you think. Well, why? Because sometimes our values, they're like a, they're like being in a kind of cage, a little cage, you know, where because we think this, therefore this is true. Well, maybe it isn't true. You know, the world was flat at one point, right? You know, there's this, and I think that being entrancient about one's values and principles and beliefs not only hurts the arts, but artistically and managerially, it hurts the world. That's what we're facing right now in such a horrible way in this country and many other places that people with differing points of view don't know how to talk to one another, don't even want to listen to one another. So I think breaking through our own stubbornness and I've seen it too. Like, they will go unnamed in very prominent New York theatrical institutions where there were four people on a panel who were arguing with one another in a way that just had nothing to do with making progress in their points of view. So how do we really say, well, you know, maybe what I think isn't true. Maybe there's another way to look at this. Maybe the power dynamic that exists right now isn't the right one. But the other thing that I think that is very important is that we, I think we segregate the generations to our peril. I'm, you know, now an older person, I've been around a long time. I have a lot to give in terms of the experience I've had, the mistakes I've made, the fuck ups, all those things. I also have a lot to gain from somebody who comes out of school or doesn't, who's just starting out, who can teach me so many things. You know, that's why in a way I hate that there's like, you know, groups of emerging artists because I'm going to be part of that group. I'm emerging, probably emerging till the day I die, you know. So I think, you know, to be able to look at how organizations can represent points of view, you know, with people from different ethnic backgrounds, different, you know, demographics, different economic backgrounds, different countries, how can we mix that up in the best way possible? I mean, the one thing I miss from Disney that doesn't exist, and I keep going, maybe there's a way to do this is when I came on board, I put together a team of incredibly brilliant people. I brought in people from the theater. I brought in dramaturgs who I thought had to be creative producers. And we had this really tight team, small team of 12 people who were my core think tank group about developing these projects all over the world. And every week we would sit and we would talk about these projects and we would argue with one another in a very non-hierarchical fashion if they thought I was wrong. They didn't hesitate to tell me which one's good. And that kind of back and forth and interplay of conversation and ideas and thoughts was so wonderful and valuable. And I feel like we don't do that enough in New York because we're all fighting for resources. And so we're competitive when we have so much to give one another of, you know, the founders, you know, of organizations came together and not only talked about what's going on in the world right now, but shared, really truly shared ideas and looked at ways to collaborate. I think I feel a little sad that I haven't figured out how to make that happen. But I know that when I think about the future of Angard Arts, Angard Arts has been driven by my vision that I want to be able to think of some way to establish a kind of collective of creative producers slash directors, small collective and advisory committee first and then maybe figure out a way to support a group of people that I can mentor that have very different points of view about the kinds of, I mean risk takers, movers and takers, rule breakers, but that Angard Arts can expand to become an organization that holds more than the vision of just one person. And to me, if there's a wave of the future and we can figure that out, I think that could be wonderful because maybe we don't all need to have our own little separate cocoons or our own little separate organizations. It means about giving something up, but it also I think has the tremendous potential to gain something wonderful. No, that is an important thought to perhaps create as you say, like a little tribe, a group. I mean, you have John Fierstein, people on your twice report, but I think you're talking about kind of a group, a small mobile unit that creates things, influences each other, talks through things through what companies actually do and learn from mistakes and where it's okay to do a mistake because you know what's wrong. Yeah, to go back again, I think what you said in your mission, be passionate, have a lengthy development process and to have the people who are affected by the subject also at hand and sitting alongside with the audience and not just in our spaces. I mean, these are things that seem are normal for you. You've done it all your producing life, but I think these are answers you've found for what we could do now, but also for, as we say, TAC for the time after Corona. So what do you think is the most urgent action to take now? What should artists do? What should producers do? What is of real significance the time we live in now because it's the incredible times which we experience? I don't feel like I can responsibly answer that in a way as a kind of blanket. This is what people need to do because we're all facing such different things. You know, like I just talked to a woman who runs a very prominent downtown organization who was like, I don't know how I'm going to hold on to my staff through November if I don't get government support. So I kind of think it's a combination of going, if I were to think of what I can do now, what is that? I think it's different for large organizations, small organizations, you know, somebody like on guard is doing so specific work. You know, what can I do now? I would say mental health is a huge issue right now for a lot of people and that it's very important to try to figure out how not to let the anxiety and the depression overwhelm people and make sure to connect and reach out to colleagues. Take care of yourself, you know. I think that's not talked about enough. I think the longer this goes on, the more it happens. I mean, I find myself now sometimes just like, you know, anxiety ridden and I'm a pretty strong cookie and I'm sure it's happening to everyone. So I think the more we can kind of look at ways to connect both interpersonally and artistically would be good. I would love it if some of the significant funders would sit down with arts theaters and say, what do you need? There's a few very enlightened people who've done that, but I think, and I'm very grateful for that. I mean, I think the Howard Gilman Foundation, I mean, those people are like in walking water. They've been so incredible just giving all these artists zoom links, you know, coming up with additional general operating money. I mean, they're terrific. They're such leaders of the field and ways that are so wonderful. I wish we had 10 more like them, you know. And then I think also it's a matter of like saying, I mean, I was talking about this with my executive director, Heather Cohn, who's a great partner today, you know, like, I think we have to really look at what is a worthwhile way to spend our time. Because as I said, I think earlier, you know, there are some, you know, and the people who run foundations are all very well-meaning, but there are some foundations, some grant applications that take such an enormous amount of time, and then you could get nothing. And I just think, is that going to be, is that really the best way to spend our time? Or do we need to think outside the box about how we're finding money, how we're finding resources rather than the conventional models of subsidizing theater, which clearly don't work and haven't worked for years, and have only gotten worse, really. You know, given how long I've been in New York, I've really seen change happen, you know, from when I first started on God Arts in 1985 to now. And when I first was running on God Arts, funders would come out and see the work. We would hang out. We would go out for coffee. We would have dinner. I'm probably going to lose some money. But you know, it makes me sad that more of that's not happening. And I think it's probably because the people who are giving my money are so overwhelmed with so many requests that it's very hard for them to, you know. So, you know, the thing I love about the project, the site-specific project we're doing in the Meatpacking District is that we're getting, it's being sponsored by the Meatpacking Business Improvement District as an economic development endeavor. So that's a kind of new way of thinking for on God Arts, you know, and it's fantastic. I love my partnership with the head of the Meatpacking Benz, a really kind of visionary, charismatic, extraordinary guy. They're just calling each other on our cell phones five times a day. Really cool guy. We all, we're both idea people. We need other people to like reign us in. But I'm so excited to be able to do that. Like, my God, you know, to be able to create this work that brings a whole neighborhood to life. And finding, you know, having the resources to do this from basically, you know, corporate America's, that's basically corporate America that's funding the Meatpacking District, that's funding the arts. It's so great. So, you know, it's not only about new ideas for creation, it's about new forms for funding and supporting that creation and talking to one another as much as we can learning from one another, trying to come up with new ideas. And most important, I think, to be kind. It's so hard right now. We all have to really remember to be kind. Because we need it. You know, we can't hug the in the same room. You know, my colleagues have, you know, have seen their world decimated. So as an individual, I just try to say what's the greatest thing I can do to be there for other people, to enable artists to do the work they want to do, to be as good a human being as I can. I'm a terrible interrupter. And so I really have to work on that. But, you know, how can I make the biggest difference, take care of myself and be support to others and understand the difficulty of what we are all facing right now? I certainly think there's no one way that I could say. I'm lucky that I don't have real estate, you know. And I have a small staff. I'm very fortunate because the smaller you are, the more nimble you can be. Thank God. Yeah. And then, my God, all of the kind of people running theaters that have kids at home, Jesus. You know, they're trying to homeschool their kids. You know, they're trying to run their theaters. It's, my kids are, I have 23 old twins. So, you know, they're grown, but the people who have, you know, seven, eight, nine, 10-year-old kids, it's very tough. So, you know, reaching out to people, you know, it's on Zoom going, I can't take it anywhere. I'm just going with my mind. It's good, you know. Many people say, yes, you have to be with your family, but so many people also live alone. You know, it's kind of this traditional model that's, you know, is now all of a sudden being put in front of people's faces again. And so, something that's not, it's hard. I mean, your work is exemplatory for what could be done. Very, very big organizations who make billions on Broadway, you know, and do not give back. They do not engage in the communities. They do not do soup kitchens. They do not do what Jack does. We just had at the Prelude Festival discussion last night about your theater workshop and outreach and, you know, what these two, and what you do is that we can do something. It's hard. It's complicated. It doesn't make you any money, but something can be done. And this is the function that theater has been provided for communities over thousands of years. And we have to go back. And yes, you don't have real estate, but you do have the streets in the way and places. It is sad. I think that corporations have to take over a vacuum that is not being funded by the city. I think art should be, it's a human right, like a healthcare education that should be accessed to the arts, should be given paid for by taxes also, and there should be a big support. I think. Well, the business improvement districts are. But then we have to prove, oh, it also makes money. It's sad. I think I remember even Bloomberg, when he wanted to do the highlight, it's thanks to him that it came out. People were against it. He kind of pushed it. So all of a sudden, the real estate had 200, 300% rises. They understood, yes, there is a connection, but of course it's not the first aim of it. But yes, it's a very clear connection because also the arts flower, there's a community. People go and joy is a sign of life. Also commerce will be affected by it. So it's affected by it. There's so many empty storefronts and, you know, malls and, you know, they're just ghost towns. And, you know, that's one of the reasons I'm so excited about this meatpacking festival because it's going to bring light and life. It's called unveil. It's going to bring light and life to the neighborhood for a weekend. And I think that's, and I think it's okay for the, you know, I think, I don't think there's any crime in saying the arts can have an economic development. No, it's fantastic. You know, I also feel like, and this is a very personal question, there's no right or wrong that one can disseminate. But I think I ask myself, what is needed right now? You know, what is needed right now is different than what was needed a year ago or two years ago. You know, when I started writing, I need to continue my blog. I started on my website like many I started and then got busy. But I called it creating for the in-between, you know, that, you know, the in-between is COVID hit. The vaccine hasn't come. It's the in-between. The in-between is stretching out much longer than any of us assume. But I think the other thing that's happening, which is very real, is that a lot of people are making decisions like, you know, about the fact that they're going to put all their resources into the election and to make sure that, you know, their own personal values for liberal and democratic values of freedom are at risk. And that even theater people who are doing that, I did a phone bank last Saturday, found it to be very tough to get on the phone with strangers and, you know, talk to strangers in a respectful way about, you know, who they're voting, why they're voting, that they should get out to vote. You know, it's very important. And we're also overwhelmed. I mean, Jesus, everybody has like, you know, I work in 24-7. And it's, but it's like, you got to carve out much of your time for things that aren't about the arts. Your kids, eating, exercise, politics, when it's like, ah, you know, so. But I think that, you know, it's like, I think, you know, there are certain artists who, like, I think Saul LeWitt, it was interesting, you know, who did these boxes, right, that out of the light, right? His whole career, that's what you did. Right, he did that. But, you know, for me, I always say, like, what is needed right now, you know? Like, when I came back to New York, before I'd been gone for so long, I was like, I want to do theater and theaters, you know, multidisciplinary shows, social change at its core. But then when COVID came, I was like, that's not what's needed now. That's not what you're going to even do now. What's needed now is a return to site-specific work for me. And so it's, as much as it's been very, very difficult, it's also been creatively fertile for me, because I'm going, grinders off and look around and see where you can make progress. It's like when you look at a big floor and there's a hole and you see the water going down through the hole, you've got to find that hole. Where's the opening? So it's also coming back to you to the meat-packing district. And you did, I think, make a chamber. That's why it was also there. And tell us a bit about the Reza Abdul production. How was that? It was funny. It was 1990. I'm at Reza in California. I was immediately taken with him. I just immediately saw him as a visionary with an extraordinary visual imagination. You're a director. Yeah. She was, you know, and I just said, I'd love to bring you to New York. I've always worked a lot on instinct with people and you came to New York and we just started walking around the city. And at the time, the meat-packing district had meat lockers and night transvestites came out on the street. And the meat-packing industry was filled with a lot of mafia people. So it was like this wild combination of different kinds of people. And Reza had such an expansive vision. He was like, I want to jump the brothers' carmots off. And I was like, okay. And then he was like, everything he said, I was like, okay. I think it would be wonderful to have a table down Little West 12th Street that was 120 feet long. And I was like, okay. He was like, I think a meat cleaver and a chandelier should stretch across the street. So me and the woman, Portia Kametsu, who produces with me, we go to this guy's office who's in the meat-packing industry and we walk and we go, do you think we could like, you know, come into your office and like stretch a wire across the street and you know, everything outside of your building wouldn't disturb you. And he goes, you see this gun? You better get out of here. I'm going to use it. And we were like, ah. So he left. And then we heard that there was this guy, Frank Shiyami, that like ran the neighborhood. And the woman, as I said, who produced us with me was, her name was Portia. And so we sent him a couple of letters, even the answer. We kind of went to his office, knocked on the door, we walked in and he looks at us. He's sitting in the way back and he's like, what? And we were like, Portia goes, my name's Portia. And he goes, Portia, the quality of mercy. And he starts quoting Shakespeare. And this guy had one, that was like a road scholar, like tough guy, like brilliant tough guy. And he was like, you go back and you tell Joey, I said you could stretch your wire across the street. He just liked us. And so I was in the world up until I said, this is insane. I mean, Reyes was like, I won a red theater curtain that hangs down from the elevated train tracks. Now the high line. So we found a red theater curtain and we opened it up and there were 60 dancers dancing in a parking lot. Field was light. I mean, it was so insane and beautiful and tough. It was in 16 different locations. There were 60 performers. There was a marching band. You can't do that work today. You couldn't do it. You could never do it. We got permission from the community board to close off for us for the blacks of the neighborhood. I mean, it just wouldn't happen. And you told me, you said, oh, it's going well. Can we do it a week longer, right? And they will say, okay, go ahead. Unthinkable things. I mean, it was unthinkable. We sold tickets off the top of my car. You're not allowed to sell tickets. I mean, we just did the same over the weekend. They were like, if you charge for tickets, we're going to charge you $5,000 to close off the street. But if you don't charge for tickets, we'll give it to you for free. Well, duh. It was so tough, though. I mean, it was pretty cell phone. We had car batteries and wheel barrows that we connected speakers to run around and have a little amplification system. But every show that On Guard Arts did like that with Anne Bogart and Tina Landau and Chuck Mey and Mack Wellman, they were their visionary, you know, creator directors and writers and Jonathan Larson. And they were willing to go along. And Anne has always said that the thing that made her have the courage to do this work is that in the worst possible circumstances, I would just stand there and laugh. I think that was true a lot. I mean, there are many, many, many stories to tell about work from this time. You think it was Trump Corporation, right? Yeah. So we did Tina Landau, we did Arestes. And Tina, we did Stonewall and actually Little Island is commissioning On Guard Arts to do an adaptation of Stonewall for the new Little Island, which I'm really excited about because I love Tina and I'm excited about working with her again. But yeah, Tina did Arestes and I was driving around with Tina in my car and she saw this twisted metal pier jetting out with a Hudson. And she goes, I mean, to drive me around Tina and Chuck me and she goes, that's the house of Atreus. And I was like, okay, so we managed to get to Trump's executive vice president, Andy Weiss. And he goes, there's nothing out there. There's no lights. There's no sound. There's nothing. And I said, but that's what we do. So we brought in generators and we brought in a storage container and it had 30 people in it. And we had actors. Jefferson Maze was Arestes and he was climbing up the top of this twisted metal pier. And it was amazing. And it was a hit. And we were so broke that the one good thing about doing outdoor theater is we just added more chairs. We were just like, we need the money. We're going to have 100 chairs. Please, we've got to find, you know. And it was interesting too because, you know, I went to the Yale Drama School and I started on Good Arts. This is my third year thesis project. And they were like, this is never going to be successful because theater audiences need a destination. They need to build it. And I didn't listen to them about that, the people that said that. And, you know, if you're going to, if you're going to break the ground and invent something, there are going to be all the people who tell you why you can't do it. And actually it was very interesting. I'm a TDF mentor. I kind of, I don't know if you all know about the Wendy Westerstein project. And I took my kids to see Haiti's Town. And Mara Isaacs happened to be there. And so I said, oh, Mara, would you talk to the people? Would you talk to the people, my kid, my high school students, about Haiti's Town in it? And one guy recently said, Mara, what was the most difficult thing about producing this show? And she said, all the people that told me I couldn't do it. And I think that's true. I think when you're trying to invent something, you know, there's going to be a lot of people who will tell you all the reasons why it's not possible. And maybe they're right. But you know what? Maybe they're not. It's what it's like. And you followed your intuition that it could be done. Maybe, yeah, we are coming closer, but it's significant what you say. I feel, for everybody who's listening, if you still have a couple of minutes, I also like that your idea of uncommon voices and unexpected places, you know, the idea to combine these two things. It's not just an unexpected place or uncommon, but you combine it. Well, the reason is we launched this series in 2019 called Uncommon Voices. And we were performing, we were presenting artists doing developmental work around social change in a 65-seat cafe. And then we were very, I was very pleased. I met a guy named Jesse Green, who's an amazing producer, and he had a relationship with WNET's All Arts. And we went in and All Arts said they were going to green value eight episodes that were 13-minute episodes, and they exist online, AllArts.org, Uncommon Voices. And each of the episodes was interviews with the artists, kind of peeling back the curtain on what their creative process was and excerpts from this reading series. But then we were like, well, we can't do that. We don't know how to do that. So I was like, what can we do? So that's why, you know, as a first step, I invited David Greenspan, he's wonderful, been around a long time, multi-talented guy, to come perform on the steps of my brand zone because it's Uncommon Voices, but we can't do it in a cafe. So where can we do that? And I reached out to people on the street and I said, if anybody has a house, they want to showcase an artist, please let me know. If anybody has a place they want David to continue doing his work, please let me know. David and Jamie were so grateful to be able to do this. We'd like to do it again at other people's houses. Anybody has a brownstone or a stoop, it's a process to get the street activity permits office, but the grant permit, but I tell you, the community policing department of the 84th Precinct that worked with us, they were wonderful and really huge. We couldn't have done it without them and they're the people on the ground that really make this stuff work in a way that's terrific. Yeah, I think to your approach is something different. I happened to walk in and saw Bill Irvin, you know, he was performing on the seat or tap dancing, but the sound didn't work, he was uncomfortable, he couldn't really interact with someone, but it was filmed, it was done for the camera. I happened to see the bandwagon of the New York Philharmonic, someone told me they're going to perform at Casa Nomada. I went there, they were facing each other playing and wearing, you know, it was also filmed and the guy was singing, it was like a showtube almost and he was doing his job and they didn't care, they didn't really want to talk to the people that didn't connect. They came and left security guards, you know, put them off as if it's something special. They gave the idea, you know, we come, especially the New York Philharmonic, it's a great thing, I think in 90 places, they buy this a fantastic thing, but still the idea is, you know, we come from Mount Olympus and bring you something and it was very short, I felt, and that effort that you make, you know, and most probably, and when David did that, you know, as I wish I would have been there, I think it is something that will work and it does not only work just in COVID times and I think this is important, it's the basics, it's the essential of it because we all face with the question, what is essential and what you have done, you know, and now you do it in a variation, is that toward the end, what are the most beautiful things you have seen in theater? What inspire you and you have, for decades, watching, who do you think are the most, the great performances you saw? You know, home, a bam, Jeff Sobell's home, I mean, I think he's extraordinary, I thought that was just one of the most beautiful pieces I've ever seen, you know, I'm always looking for artists who have not only kind of in-depth, beautiful storytelling but have a great visual sensibility. I think, you know, third rails piece that they did that ran for years and just recently closed down was really quite extraordinary and wonderful. You know, I love Chuck Mee's work, I mean, and the work Tina does with him, Chuck's such a visual extraordinary writer and to this day is, you know, hoping he can find people who will be creating work. So, you know, I'm always looking for me the work that I love the most is work that has many facets to it, you know, that's not only about great storytelling but also has great visual ideas to it. Holocene's that large yawn did and Times Square, I thought was absolutely extraordinary feat, you know, it's amazing. So, you know, I mean, that's where my personal tastes lies. And I would say that, you know, while I think I'm guard artists considered to be a downtown organization, I'm most interested in producing work that's accessible to a broad range of people. You know, I feel like if we're too pedantic about our politics, the only people that common and they're avert in the piece, I mean, obviously, Fandango is very political in many ways, but it wasn't over. You know, a friend of mine said Fandango was about a community of undocumented immigrants singing about themselves. I think if when we're very pedantic about our politics, the only people that come see the work are people who already agree with us. So we have to be sneakier than that, you know. So, you know, Melanie Joseph of the years did lots of extraordinary work. Chris and Martin are here. I mean, these are pioneers and champions. And I don't know if you know about the new group called SIPA. That's a group of independent producers that's coming together. The amazing leadership to kind of really promote understanding and visibility to the work of independent producers. I mean, Taylor Mack with Machine Dazzle. She's God, in my opinion, you know, extraordinary. I mean, you know, Nye Joel Smith who works with Taylor, love him as a director and his being. I mean, there's a lot of incredibly talented folk out there. Megan Finn, incredible director who was capable of doing you know, site-specific work. The tank is a home to so many extraordinary artists and she's just plowing forward, you know, God lover. So. No, there is a lot out there. And I think, you know, to hear you and hear your voice also with your experience, also with your long work, long credit, you know, to work that you produce. But it is important to have heard from you and also kind of an optimistic undertone. And I think there is something recipes, you know, one can adapt even so someone says, you know, I think quoted, which I liked Brian Eno, you start cooking and then you find a recipe or you look it up or look it against, but you have to start cooking. So your cough level, as they say, you know, and that's an interrupt to do and stir the things up. And I think this is what theater has to do now and this is important. What you do with the community, with the meatpacking district, the center that also cares about that district, you know, because they also now understand, thanks to you and other the community and the involvement of the artists of significance. I mean, this is something where what can work and should work in different places. And I hope maybe some of the listeners might join your group of curators, the one you want to mentor that gang of change makers. I'm reachable. I mean, you know, I think, you know, arts book field that's working with us on a dozen dreams and we're looking at doing a like-minded festival downtown with the downtown business alliance. I mean, there's a lot of great people. But I do want to say that there's a wonderful quote that I love. I don't know if, you know, Brian Stevenson is, but he wrote the book Just Mercy and he went down south to get people off death row and I heard him speaking and he said something which I thought was wonderful. And he said, hopelessness is the enemy of freedom. Yeah, so say that again. No, I try to, I try to, I try to combat hopelessness and just, I mean, I'm stubborn. I'm really stubborn. So I just say, okay, come on. You're not going to get the best of me. I'm going to plow forward. You know, that's what we need to do. That's a good, good thing to take away and hopelessness is the enemy of freedom and what we look for actually is freedom. So we, we need to have hope and maybe it's our will and not our experience, you know, and both. Sometimes inexperience is better because you don't know what you can't do. Or no one told you what to do. My kids are so successful with new electronics and digital. They don't, it's normal for them. They don't understand it. I'm still going, where do I push on Instagram? I push, oh man, how do I get that message? Listen, listen, thank you really. I know how busy you are, how much you work for your show. I hope also people will go and help to get the word out of there. You know, how generous you are. You came also remember to Prelude with Wilderness, you know, it was one of the readings. It showed us work in development and made a wonderful, I thought, presentation and discussion afterwards. Prelude, by the way, is going on now. It's on WWW Prelude NYC 2020. It started yesterday. David and Miranda curated it and it's going to go on this week and next week. You know, check it out. But I think Ann's project, you know, to use the emptiness, the spaces in between, the storefronts, which we are looking at, in a way with sorrow and horror and despair. We are closing, say, let's do something with it and maybe the life that fills it in between, you know, has something to say to us. I do just want to say one thing. This would not be possible if I didn't have a great partnership with the Business Improvement District. Like, I couldn't just go on my own and be knocking on doors and being, by the way, maybe I have to remember that, you know. But it's also important to you that they are part of it. You know, it's not just to get these. They say, no, because they are part of the neighborhood. Actually, as you say, also people who run it, who care for it, you know, listen most likely to the people who live there. They're concerned. So it's something that is connected. Maybe theater has not paid enough attention to such connections because also we became experts, you know, in small places, small silos, somehow disconnected. Everybody attacks politicians that they are disconnected from the people, from the workers, from the real concerns. Also theater, I think, has to ask itself, did they do enough? And most probably not, but people like you did. So really, thank you for joining and for sharing your thoughts and experiences. And congratulations on everything you did. You have our highest respect. We look forward what you do. You're such a great force in New York and New York City. And also, I think, a true mentor, a model to look up to and for everybody listening, what Anne does, what she found and what she implements, it works. You know, so it's something we can learn from, but then, of course, to cook our own dishes. Thank you, thank you. Tomorrow we'll have students from New York City, you know, from different universities that we will hear voices. What do they say? Because, you know, we hear from masters like you and a great, great artist we had on here from Ustermaya to so many, you know, Barbara and Bogard and Peter Sels and so many others. But what's on the mind of those students? You know, how are they experiencing this moment? People who study the field and now everything is closed. You know, the economic outlook already is so complicated. But what are they thinking now? And I think this is something we also have to pay attention to. So tomorrow we will do that. Thank you for howl around to hosting us. Again, next week we will have many of the prelude artists. David and Miranda spoke to some of them who were willing to put in additional times over when we talk about the idea of theater and their work to say we need to find a way to do something is website in a way is also a site. In between thing, we couldn't get into the building. Crisis in the community is close. Impossible to show anything. But so they ask artists to create something as in that field in between. And so I hope you will be able to join us again. And thank you. Thanks to everybody, to you listeners, especially for taking the time. There's so much more out there on content, on context. But I think what Anne said today is of significance and importance. She has a record to prove it. And she has this pioneer spirit. And there's a very young artist, as she said, as someone who is starting out still and excited about her work and passionate. And I think her core values are guiding the lights for many artists or producers and institutions if they choose to do so. So bye-bye and thank you, Stacy. Thank you very much. Big hug.