 Okay, hello, good morning. Welcome back to the second day of Innovate Heritage. Are we ready? Yeah, good, okay, thank you. Welcome back. We're really excited about this next program that was curated by Oriental Heritage Without Borders, which is the Syrian art and heritage in danger. And I will introduce the moderator now and enjoy. Thank you. Good morning, everyone, and welcome to our panel, Syrian Art and Heritage in Danger. My name is Sapida Zarin-Galam from Oriental Heritage Without Borders. As you all know, more than three years has passed since the conflict that started in Syria. During this time, and while the Syrian people continue to suffer from one of the world's largest humanitarian crisis, the country has further lost most, and even still continue to lose more of its rich culture heritage on a daily basis, reaching to the point of no return, as mentioned by UNESCO Director General Irina Bokova last week. Even though from the very beginning, various national and international institutions, and even individual experts, they have undertook some awareness-raising activities towards addressing this critical issue. However, it's not until this year that UNESCO has taken its most practical act more than mainly warning statements and meetings. I'm referring to the recent EU-funded project entitled Emergency Safeguarding of the Syrian Heritage, which has encouragingly led to the proposal for the establishment of the International Observatory of Syrian Culture Helitage in Lebanon, which seems to plan for more positive steps forward. On the other hand, if one follows the creative activities of young Syrians, either artists or ordinary people, there has been no stop of artistic or cultural production all the way from the very beginning when the conflict started despite all the difficulties. So such creative activity at these hard times, together with the promising initiation of the UNESCO, brings with it the message of hope which builds into this panel's discussion topic towards the possibility of providing more opportunities for fostering and empowering the already existing potentials. Where with the help of artists and other innovative design professionals, there is a good chance in undertaking innovative and participatory cultural activities for restoring the social cohesion, community development and protection of the endangered cultural heritage, both informal, tangible ones and intangible ones. As it has already been asserted, the protection of cultural heritage isn't separable from the protection of human lives. It's my great pleasure to welcome and introduce to you our guest panelists here who will provide you with their fascinating talks and discussions. Mahmoud Ramadan, I will start with Mahmoud Ramadan. He is managing playmaker for community mobilization and strategic planning in Brussels. He's currently the strategic development coordinator of the Syria Initiative, responsible for the design and development of the initiatives as well as building and strengthening the peace activities network in Syria. He's supporting national agenda for the future of Syria with United Nations for Economic and Social Development for Western Asia in a field of strategic local development. Our second guest is Charlotte E. Bank. She is art historian, independent curator, living and working between Berlin and Geneva. She was also partly based in Damascus till 2011. Her work is focused on modern and contemporary artistic practice from the Middle East with a special emphasize on the independent contemporary art scene since 2000 in its global context. She's a member of the curatorial team of the Visual Art Festival of Damascus, which is an independent art festival launched in 2010. And now it exists as a nomadic platform for artistic exchange. And since 2013, she's a member of a research project entitled Other Modernities, Patrimonial Practices of Visual Expressions Outside the West at the University of Geneva. And our last guest is Khaled Mösser. He is a Syrian filmmaker. He's based in Berlin since 2012 and a recent directing student in the German Film and TV Academy of Berlin. He graduated from the Higher Institute of Theatrical Art in Damascus in 2007. And then after he studied film directing till 2011 in national film TV and theater school in Poland. For the beginning, Mahmoud and Charlotte, they will start with their brief talks to give us a general view on what's going on Syria, on the topic of Syrian art and heritage in danger. And then later we continue with questions and discussions. Mahmoud, please. Thank you. Good morning. So it's not easy to compete with the sunny Saturday weather in Berlin. But thank you for being here. So I'm gonna zoom out a little bit and talk about what's going on in Syria in the cultural heritage and highlight that not only the culture of crisis, but also what's happened before that and what we expected also about the future. So the presentation doesn't consistent with the text systematically, but with the narrative as a whole. So it's just reflect how much I'm confused about the situation there. Syria today is the history of people who have participated in shaping culture and the human civilization for millennia. At the custodian of this rich heritage, we have all of us a responsibility to work on the recovery and maintain these living heritage, which is still destroyed daily by violence. The international and Syrian cultural institutions that can act in this period as platform for cultural expression and further cultural innovation, whatever they are in Syria or outside Syria, to help preserve Syrian identity as part of the today's world cultural heritage. In spite of institutional, a planning methodology and operational problems in the Syrian cultural policies, but Syria has firmly established itself as a cultural center in the Arab world. Music, cinema, TV, industries, modern art, theater, festivals, were evidence of the vibrancy and attractiveness of the Syrian culture in the region and around the world. But we have to admit too that is all these efforts have been failed to build continuing cultural scene in the rural and urban functionality in Syria. Also, the lack of integration between culture and development add obstacles to discover cultural capital as well as community capital and invest them in the socioeconomic consumption cycle to improve the quality of daily life for our communities. So, a quick review for the characteristics of the scenes of the dominant culture, then the crisis culture, and the next possible scene will be introduced, hope to let the continuous efforts of the independent actors, independent institutions, as well as local authorities with a new role of Syrian state as catalyst instead of paternalistic one that would make the cultural heritage as one of the entry points for local peace building in the near future. For many decades, public awareness of cultural heritage is immature and the old legal framework governing the space, the antiquities load dates back to 1963. In addition to the central cultural policies and delayed spatial development in the Syrian context, beside the three years of violence, all are contributed to draw the raptured scene today. The three years of crisis came to reach the Syrian cultural heritage to the point of no return that the last UNESCO meeting last week announced. In Paris, as a victim of military conflict, actions and reactions destroying the past, present and losing the hope of the future, taking into account that 95% of the Syrians didn't engage with the violence directly and Syria became a theater to settle the accumulated problems regionally and internationally. So what's about the challenges in the dominant culture? I'm gonna brief you, I mean, just because we have a little bit time about the two scenes and then come to the conclusion. So in Syria, culture weren't considered cornerstone of development process. Also the tangible heritage, fixed and movable, not linked with their communities and intangible heritage began to discover itself too late and it doesn't invest in the cultural capital. Example of that, the cultural mapping in the Krak dishevalier region and they discovered a lot of potentials which is not used in 2009. And you can notice always it's a project but there is no clear methodology and approach draw the scene in Syria. So other examples also they classified during the crisis last few months they finished to classify 100 items of Syrian intangible heritage too. So the characteristics of that period where from my point of view, we succeed to square the circle between conservation and development once in rehabilitation project of the old city of Aleppo which started as rehabilitation project and turned to urban management project using all the capital available in the old city and that's the only clear example about how we deal with such big culture heritage site. The loss of present between the past and the future that's one of our problem. So when the interpretation of the absence is dominated with thinking in the present, the thinking of in the present will be absent. So during our work in the Syrian museum and heritage site network, one of the projects with Louvre museum and other stakeholders in Syria from civil society and from the government. We used to, we used the global cafe in real coffee shops in Latakia and Aleppo just tried to get a public mood about the cultural heritage, museums, identity and values. So I'm gonna give you small examples. Question, if we assume that the museum is owned by the community, how does community express itself through the museum's activities and performances? Answer, you should ask the officials, do they allow the community to participate in the museum activities? Then a lot of ideas will come out, the age 38 of the, who's given the answer. Answer, let our ideas come out and you will see how the community will express itself, age 20. Question, during your visit to the museum would you be experienced the past or the present? I don't see answer, I don't see the past or the present. Only products of the past, no narrative. Question, who is the actor in the relationship between culture and people? Answer, the role is monopolized by the state while the society is still ineffective, age 67. Answer, so far state is a regulator while the role of the community as producer and regulator is still secondary role, age 38. Answer, people who should activate their culture and express it, but you must give space for that, age 33. Okay, another point, the missing investment in the cultural capital as part of community capital in the development vehicle for local communities. We have also a good example between 23 villages in the eastern part of the country near our cultural heritage site, Urkish, dates back 4,000 years. So 22 villages from the Kurds and one village from the Arab. And when we start working with them after a while, based on the capital available with them, just try to let them discover the impacts on how they can build their model in the development. After three months, I mean, they start produced together and they working hand by hand and benefiting from being beside a cultural heritage site like Urkish. Creative visions, I mean, we had a creative visions, but always reluctant policy. So institutional structure, the reluctant policy or the mechanism of decision making or the funding or the old legal framework, relation between public and civil sectors. Also sometimes obstacles with international cooperation. So the vision, we have an example for the Syrian museum and cultural heritage site that's in 2010 in the edge of the crisis. And then the vision aimed to create world-class innovative and collaborative network of Syrian museum and cultural heritage site. So a network that will modernize, integrate, and expand upon the assets of Syria's 41 existing museums. It's historical old towns and rich collection of cultural heritage site. It was assumed to include a new Syrian national museum, regional museum, site museums, virtual museums, and excellent centers. The network, it assumed to be greater than the sum of its institutions. It provides visitor with comprehensive view of Syrian heritage and allow them to see connections between past and Syria's modern identity between culture and civil society, between history and the future, the museum in this network. It was assumed to be leaving institutions providing a platform of cultural expression, performance, and educational activities. And will be accessible to all Syrian, including those with disabilities. Which have also strong links to other re-owned world institutions through partnerships, traveling exhibitions, and exchange. And this vision was rely on local community development portals network based on heritage. Okay, what's about the crisis, culture of the crisis? The current scene. The culture of the crisis is the outcome of accumulative problems in historic phase. Mixed movement, revolution, war, civil war, alienation and modernity, originality and selfish. A lot of changing in moral geography during the three years. Movement, revolution, militant movement, civil war, war against terrorists, as well as the concept of people itself. From the people want to, they turn it to people as a victim of militant and political conflict. What's going on this period from my point of view one more time? So, as they announced in UNESCO meaning, I mean, they call it cultural hemorrhage. And if that's continuous, so no doubt we will reach the no return point. And we will reach a cultural cleansing. Okay, what's going on also? Better late than never. The UNESCO will establish an observatory in Lebanon to support and control the tangible and intangible Syrian heritage after three years. That's good also. So, the activists and cultural initiatives, they are still working till now under the war and you can find a hundred of initiatives in all Syrian cities. I mean, the people, they are working to continue leaving and preserve what they still have till now. So, also from the state part, I mean, they took some preventive measurements to preserve the items of the museums, but only two museums were looted in Arakka, in the eastern part, and in Ma'aret-e-Naman. It has a lot of mosaics in this museum. It's between Idlib and Aleppo. And beside other items from other sites. So, also we can look to that as part of the economy of the war and warlords got income from heritage. So, illegal excavations were done, museums as well as items were looted. So, what's about the transformations of Syrian culture seen? Despite what appears as a big challenge in mobilizing cultural actors and building consensus on the priorities for actions in present and future, but 94% of the stakeholders who participated in the polls about the priorities of the cultural actions in Syria launched by Etihad Institution. It's a Syrian institution, independent Syrian institution. In the context of the project towards cultural policy promotes national democratic transition, the answer was yes. To the question, do you see a need to coordinate a parallel cultural policy and action plans by independent cultural actors and independent institutions in civil society? So, all of them, I mean, they answered, 94%. We need to do that. We need to have a voice from the civil society in the cultural heritage and in the cultural life in Syria, especially during this time and more to come in the future. So, what's about the characteristics or the thoughts came into my mind? Okay, I try to be a little bit positive naive, but okay, in spite of the intangible cultural heritage, including cultural practices performing arts and more, we're also exposed to serious damage due to the social fragmentation, displacement and migration, but there is still a chance to benefit from acculturation in host communities and countries. There is still a chance to do that with a lot of independent Syrians, actors around the world, and they can preserve and we can link always together to preserve the Syrian identity as part of the World Heritage Site. The role of cultural heritage in reconciliation inside and outside Syria for the Syrians, the social fabric rebuilding and physical reconstruction, building new cultural policy with a clear role for independent cultural activists and local authorities and strengthening the role of the independent actors and their ability to innovate. Penetrate in the central cultural system towards the decentralization of the culture, which is very important and any kind of peace building will start locally. I mean, otherwise any other international or regional agreement will not bring the peace to, and there is a lot of examples around the world. So, we have to prepare the ground and the cultural heritage will be entry point to do that. The order, I'm coming to the end, so the order of priorities as they also, based on the some polls as I mentioned before, from most important to least important to be the initial results in the following form. I mean, they asked about the priorities for the independent activists. And the answer is like this, the use of culture as a pillar in the rebuilding of civil peace, that's number one, then contribute to the treatment of psychosocial effects occurring in the different groups of people in Syria. The use of culture as a tool in achieving the desired democracy transformation to contribute to the culture in the expression of the tragedy and building it narrative, heritage protection of tangible and intangible. The defense of culture as a right for every citizen mitigate the impact of the radical religious forces, the integration of culture in the relief efforts and the media, the use of culture as a factor of economic recovery. So, finally, I mean, the hope is somewhere we have to keep moving. Thank you. Thank you, Mahmoud Ramadan, for the very interesting talk. I invite the next presenter, Charlotte Abank. Thank you. So, I would like to discuss some ways in which the internet have been used by artists and activists in Syria and how we can use these experiences in a truly proactive way to raise awareness about endangered artistic heritage. So, my focus will be more on the modern and contemporary artistic heritage and less on the architectural and archeological heritage. So, to start with, I would like to show a short extract from a video made in 2012 by a young Syrian artist, Randa Mdahl, Light Horizon. Maybe the computer has taken a day off as well. You just decided to take me out. I mean, who can blame it? Is it going to work or should I just go on and... Just go ahead, I'm sorry. Okay, then I need my PowerPoint. That's also something, this is 68, so it should be sorting itself out. Yeah, why don't you do that? It's okay if you want to answer questions, but I need some kind of visual... Yeah, okay, okay. So, if you wouldn't mind doing a brief Q&A with this gentleman who has a question, I will have this out at approximately... Okay. So, maybe you guys can switch places. Yeah, okay. So, if it's a difficult question, I would think about it. If it's okay, I can answer it. So, please, no, sorry. My name is Yautam Sitzma. I work for Culture Managers Exchange Program based here in Berlin. That includes quite a few participants from the Arab Mediterranean region, including Syria. Thank you for your very hopeful story of what Syria looked like until 2010 and might go towards after the... Yeah, conflict has ended, whatever that may be. Can you say something about what's happening on the ground right now? I know that Al-Itihad, for example, most of their staff are no longer located inside Syria. Most of them are in Beirut. They're officially registered now in Beirut. They're sitting in a very rotten apartment somewhere outside the city center. Their work is pretty much impossible, and I can imagine that for a lot of independent organizations working or that used to work in Syria, one, it's quite impossible to work there right now, and two, they might have other things on their mind besides preserve and cultural heritage. Okay. So, okay, so it depends where, because, I mean, the crisis, it's not homogeneous in the whole Syrian regions. But if you would like, I mean, in the hotspot, like Aleppo or like, in the eastern part, it's really complicated out of control. But I would like to say that, till now, there is a lot of networks from the Syrians. They are working regardless of the political positioning, and they are introducing services and implementing initiatives. And that what we try to support, to build a critical mass later on from all parties for the peace building ground up. So, for example, if you'll ask me about the old city of Aleppo, I will say nothing. I mean, it's very complicated situation right now. While I can say that, as I mentioned, so in the cultural heritage, they just finished like these classified 100 elements in intangible heritage. They are right now preparing something related to the Crac-de-Chuvaliers after the government took it again. So, again, I mean, in the culture in general, there is some initiative related to the active citizenship. There is another humanitarian initiatives. We are working right now with the different parties to establish the cultural networks also to start working about the cultural heritage in different regions. That's in general what's going on. A lot of local dialogues also taking place in different thematic discussion, part of it related to the cultural heritage, part of it related to the youth problems, part of it related to the education, decentralization, so all these urban functionality, how it could be the local services also an entry point to let the communities leaving together and working together again. That's in general what they have. I don't know if you need more specific things, so please, that's right. Indeed, one more time, when we say it's impossible. Okay, so the question is, you know that the working on the ground right now, it's impossible, they ask me to repeat the question. That's right because most of the artists are outside of Syria. Yes and no, here. Yes, a lot of them outside Syria, but they're still inside Syria. For example, last month, the festival for the short films in Aleppo was taking place. So, another activities in Damascus, also in theater and also in a local house. So, I can say yes and no, it's not the normal cultural life, yeah, but again, I will say the opportunity that right now we are talking about the present, finally, because always stuck either looking to the past or talking about the hope and the future. So, that's what is going on. Also, the jazz festival, part of it took place in Beirut with the children from refugees, and it was screening also between The Hague and Beirut and Amman. So, I mean, and maybe also either no, Khalid or can also comment about that if there is any activities is taking place, but that's what I know right now. Also, there is two exhibition here in the exhibition. Two Syrians, I guess, were exhibited, the Angelique Sanousian, Muharramat, and the Antama Ma'azaam too. So, that's what I'm talking about. We have to let them link always, okay? Thank you. Is it ready? Another question? You mean that it was complicated question. No, I'm just kidding. Sorry, because I mean, we are online and then it works. Yeah, okay, good morning. I saw the life and the situation of the city center and around the area. What about the rural area? Do you have there, as I know about there, you have lots of adobe house and mud structures along, I mean, all around the Syria and it is also enlisted part of the UNESCO Heritage Site. So, what about those areas? Has it been really protected or not or something like that? Or the rural areas which does have the intangible, intangible cultural heritage? Okay. It's a matter of those things. Okay. Just in brief, if I could use the control. Again, as I mentioned, I mean, it's not a homogeneous crisis all around Syria and then there is part of the rural area, for example, in the rural Aleppo, the dead cities. That's a word heritage sites. Sibam is in Serbia? Sibam city or something like that, it's a mud city. It's a big city. Yeah, yeah. Sibam, yeah. What? Sibam. Sibam, no, that's in Yemen. Yemen, that is in Yemen. No, no, no, I'm talking about something else about the dead cities in the rural area of Aleppo. I mean, so that's what I mentioned. There is illegal excavations was taking place there. And all these things documented because there is a lot of virtual platform let the local communities published if there is anything, any destruction or any other thing happened. So they photograph that and they produce it and the archive is there. And also there's a report from the antiquities directorate about all the destruction and all the problems in the cultural heritage. Also, as I mentioned, Crac de Chevalier or Afamia Citadel, so there is different places where a theater for fighting, unfortunately. If you look also to Old City of Aleppo. So it's unbelievable, Old City of Homs to Bousra. Bousra also, the Old City of Bousra is the word heritage site. So a lot of problems there, ready? So, okay, it looks like the computer has finally decided to stay away. And I will just, I will change my talk and just be very brief because most of what I was going to say I would need the images for it, is it? Okay, okay, okay. Let's hope it stays there. Okay, I was going to show you a brief video or a brief extract from a video that which is one you can find online. So if anybody's interested, please ask me afterwards for the name of the artist. It's a video that shows a young woman doing her daily household work in a quite alienating setting. It's staged in a ruined house. It was actually filmed in the Syrian Rulam which is, as you know, occupied since 1967 and many villages were destroyed and left in the state of destruction. But what is interesting about the video is that this situation, although it has a very specific geographical and historical situation, could actually now be located anywhere, all over in Syria. Everywhere in Syria, people are trying to make their lives, remake their lives in the middle of ruins, in the middle of real ruins of ruined houses, but also in the ruins of their former existences. Another example of how ruins have found their way into the works of Syrian artists is in the images of Tamam al-Zam that you can see in the exhibition where we witness a series of iconic examples of European modern art history in the middle of the ruins of Syrian cities. What works such as Madas and Azam seem to convey is on one hand a will to continue to live even among ruins, a sense of resistance that life is stronger than any effort to destroy it and that art will live on no matter what the circumstances are. At the same time, Azam's Photoshop series also seemed to invite the world into Syrian ruins, notably through some of its major artworks, artworks that celebrate life, like here we have Matisse's dancers and Klimt's The Kiss. The world has largely chosen to look away from what is happening in Syria, but Azam will not let it get away with it, it seems to say. He takes its images and put them into the Syrian context, more precisely in the context of the ruins of Syrian cities which held many priceless examples of architecture that have now been lost forever. So after Tamam al-Zam had published his series on the internet, they soon went viral and were widely shared, and maybe this series has opened more eyes to the dangers that are facing Syria's heritage than many alarming reports from UNESCO and other organizations would have done. The question is, what can we learn from this and how can we use it? This is something I will elaborate a little bit later on. Now the internet has been very important in the context of the Syrian uprising, both in terms of calling for actions, calling for strikes, calling for demonstrations, but also to document actions made by civil society activists and demonstrators. So one example I will just show here which is a very early example from a street action that was staged in Damascus in 2011 where a group of activists poured red color into the fountains in Damascus to symbolize the bloodshed that was taking place. The internet has been used also for a series of short videos made by a series of Syrian young artists that showed solidarity with the peaceful goals of the uprising and condemned violence. One of the first ones was the Conte de Printemps by Mohammed Omran and Danny Aboulot that was published in autumn 2011 and actually was the first in a series of similar videos that used found footage together with animation, together with new footage and created some short videos that commented on the events as they were unfolding. The internet has also been used for more humoristic comments in the early days of the uprising, for instance, when the leaks of some of the private emails between Bashar al-Assad and his wife were published in which she called him Batta, that is the duck, comments on this nickname of Bashar al-Assad were quite common on the internet for a brief period of time. So on the left you see a manipulation of a declaration of allegiance. It says, the image says, we love you and his face has been changed with the head of a duck. On your right side you have a manipulation of a small of a children's books illustration and the kid asks the duck and the Batta, that is, are you a duck? And the duck says, la Assad, which means no, I'm a lion. So Assad, it's a play on the name of Assad, which means lion. Now, of course, the internet now is not really used in this humoristic way. The situation in Syria has become too violent and too disastrous to these kinds of plays. So I would like to return to the images of, now it doesn't seem to like to want to go backwards and it doesn't like to go forward either. Okay, so let's get back to the images of Tammam-Azam. Now this stunning appearance of European icons of modern art in the ruins of Syria leads me to question the place of art in war zones or in zones of crisis. Just as humans and just as architecture and archeological sites, paintings, sculptures and film copies are in danger. And I will turn to a more dramatic incident. If we go back to 2003, when the US forces were entering the city of Baghdad, images of the looted National Museum and burned National Library went around the world. But another tragedy was actually taking place that mostly went unnoticed. The Museum of Modern Art suffered a similar fate. It was broken into and its collection was looted. And contrary to the holdings of the National Museum, many of the works of the Modern Art Museum remains without a trace. And it has unfortunately not received a very wide audience. So when we talk about the threat to heritage, I think it's important whether we're talking about it in Syria or in Iraq or anywhere else. I think it's important to remember that heritage, cultural heritage is also the more recent heritage. It's the recent artistic history of a country, its paintings, its sculptures, its film copies, the production of contemporary artists that are also in danger. In Syria, maybe not now, but I think there might be a similar risk as in Iraq. Since its inauguration in 1952, the Ministry of Culture has been collecting works by Syrian artists. The National Museum in Damascus, but also the one in Aleppo, had display rooms with modern paintings together with the collections of antiquities which were much more famous. Also the storage facilities of the Museum of Modern Art in Dumar, outside Damascus, which is a little bit a strange institution that never really started functioning properly. Other works are located there. And these collections are also potentially in danger for many reasons. They are of course in danger of destruction and looting. Should Damascus, the one in Aleppo is in fact in danger, but still the people working in the National Museum in Aleppo have already taken measures to safeguard the collections. But the one in Damascus would potentially be in danger should Damascus become directly involved in the fighting. One other danger is that these collections are usually quite poorly cataloged and therefore they are vulnerable in situations of lawlessness. Another example is the question of the cinematographic legacy. The archives of the National Film Organization in Damascus holds a collection of fine films produced since the 1970s, exceptional films by Syrian filmmakers, but also by filmmakers from other Arab countries. Like I would just like to show you a few examples. The Egyptian film director Taufik Saleh, The Dupes from 1972, which was made from a novel by the Palestinian author Hassan Qanafani. Also the Lebanese filmmaker Burhan Alawi is Kafir Qasim from 1975. And among the many Syrian films, I would just like to mention one example. Muhammad Malas's Dreams of the City from 1983. Because this film in particular stands out as an example of the devastating conservation conditions in the National Film Organization in Damascus. Now the copy that is hold by the National Film Organization is in a very bad condition. And since it is maybe the only one that is locatable at the moment, maybe one copy will turn up at some point. But the one that is in the National Film Organization is, as far as I know, the only one which exists is so badly damaged that the film cannot be properly shown. Now these conditions were bad already before the uprising, but they have not become any better. It is due to a lack of competence, a lack of interest, but now these factors have deteriorated considerably. To these more official archives come the many cases of artists who have had to leave their studios and personal archives as well as works behind when they had to leave the country during the violence and who are now unsure of and when they will ever be able to return to Syria. So while these example of modern and contemporary artistic heritage might be in a less acute danger than the archeological and architectural heritage, I think it's important to bring up the issue and to raise the awareness of this part of Syrian heritage that should also be safeguarded for future generations. And here I think the internet can be of help and this is where I'm coming back to my point in the beginning. There is one example that might serve as an inspiration. After the looting of Baghdad's Museum of Modern Art, the American Iraqi art historian Nader Shabut started a project that attempted to recreate the museum in a virtual way, creating an online museum. She wanted to collect images of the artworks taken by private people, visitors to the museums, relatives of artists, the artists themselves, et cetera. And she wanted to create an online archive of the works known to have been in the museum's collection. Such an archive could have proven a valuable tool against black market dealings and would also have been an important research tool as well as a way to recognize Iraqi modern art which had known years of flowering with lively discussions about the role of art in society and also seen the founding of different art movements. For unknown reason, this project was never realized other than in rudimentary ways and the Museum of Modern Art in Baghdad actually reopened last year but a large part of its former collection is still missing. So the idea of using the internet and create a platform for awareness raising through a collaboration with the general audience seems to me an idea one could develop. And I think with the use of the internet as we have seen it since the beginning of the Syrian uprising, this could be a way of developing a platform for interaction. And also I think Mahmoud made a very important point that the culture, the art and culture scene in Syria maybe has missed or didn't really think one point to the end and that was how to reconnect with the more general public with other regions in Syria other than the culturally interested, culturally and artistically interested elites in the cities. So maybe we could imagine a platform on the internet with an archive of images combined with the possibility of exchange and comments. To ask artists to upload their images of the works they had had to leave behind them, to ask visitors to museums and to architectural and archaeological sites to contribute to this development of an online platform, an online museum, a virtual museum of Syrian ancient, modern and contemporary artistic and cultural heritage. So it could be one way to safeguard and also to raise awareness and as I was mentioning in the case of looted objects and of looted works of art these kind of archives that are widely accessible can actually really prevent their being trafficked. Okay, thank you very much. Okay. I would like to speak more about the art scene in Syria before the events happened and after the events happened and how this events like affected the artist works and how they and actually despite all the crisis which was happening and the humanitarian levels and all the other levels I think actually really there's a lot of positive things which happened to the mentality of Syrian artists and their production because of these events, despite all the crisis and the other disasters happened. Like because before it was really schizophrenic, I think the art scene in Syria and like me as an artist, young artist or a person who was trying to start up with his artworks, there were a lot of lack of like support from for example for the state, let's say for the art scene and the culture scene and all the dimension in theater and films and in all the fields of art and that's one factor but also in the history in Syria there were like Abu Khalil Qabbani and he was the first one who tried to establish actually a theater in Damascus and he got so popular that people bring their mattresses actually and go and wait one whole night to get into the performance and this certain guy he has his theater burned by radical Islamists and that was in 1890 something and this sample is not just to tell what my opinion that the obstacles of the culture we are facing is definitely, I mean you all the time put the first responsibility in the authority because they actually have the access to solve this kind of problem or something but that didn't mean I think it's so flat also to think that this is the only factor, there is a really deep discussion about what is the obstacle of really an active culture and art life in Syria which make someone like me need to travel to other countries to gain something which is I wasn't able actually to gain in Syria. What happened as in Evans, late Evans it pushed the artist to stack to reality and to actually deal with reality before it was so schizophrenic it was like let's say rarely you can actually speak about problems which actually really affecting your personal life. You have a space of talking about things, actually there is also a freedom space about political critics and stuff but you are really it's so hard to speak about the ground and the reason, you can describe the horror but if you want to think and analyze and put your hand in the point then you are in a risk first from the state as they're also like super radical political perspective which I think now they are rethinking about this because this is what make the huge explosion somehow. It's like this both sides super radical perspective how they see the issues and how it became the solution one should erase the other, wherever who and there is no common ground at all for anything. It's a clash in the identity actually the Syrian identity. I see it as Syrians now yeah they are in this geographic frame but it is actually I think we are really having a huge dilemma of who we are actually as a Syrian and this is a main basic of actually of a lot of further on detail conflicts happening here and there et cetera. I think one of the most valuable things happen lately was the mobile videos upload because for me it's it has an is a really big value because it is for me art personally all its value comes from make me understand the reality more or like get more in touch with the reality and for me all the time art come bring its values from reality and that's why in that certain moment during the crisis and what the people were doing it was they were forced like people they never used any technology they never used any camera they are super mature they use like the very simple cameras you know and their mobiles to capture it's like the latest sometimes defense about a situation it's the latest thing they can do is just to evidence what actually their reality and what actually they are practicing these images is that it is the must you know innocent picture we can see of Syria more than any of the artists work absolutely which make us really understand those Syrians and understand what the hell they are passing through and what is their lives look like what is their houses look like what furniture they have how the fridge filled with what and that's really important to understand also those people more than to understand you know also the cultural background and also like just also the very basic reality they are living in and which push them to which we can understand why they took some radical choices like we've got a Salafis in Syria which is a country that has a lot of diversity now we have also a radical nationalists and the other side develops so for me really I think I'm critical a little bit about most of the artwork was produced during the events from the Syrian artists because of maybe because of the shock usually it was very overwhelming events nobody expected so in some point you are really you need time to think and maybe the first thing you just described the horror described the things we are facing but I think this is not enough for art I think that I need to know why all nations has conflicts was why it was so brutal in Syria that much why that's the question which those mobile videos sometimes answer me more than artworks until now maybe it needs a bit more time until we can digest what actually happened and start thinking about actually the reason because when we don't know the reason we will never solve the problem somehow until now yeah we are blaming each others but we are finally in one frame and we need to find you know somehow a kind of solution between each others anyway I don't want to take so long I would like just to leave any space for your questions if any and I would like to thank also Mahmoud and Shalota because they give really a very rich I think introduction about the situation thank you thank you Khalid you actually answered my first question I wanted to ask you about what's going on at the moment as one can follow in a social network that a lot is going on so you give us an overview on it because of the technical problem we have really limited time to discuss so I have one or two questions from each of the presenters and then I open this to the audience I want to start from Shalota thank you for the presentation and you had you came to this very nice proposal for having an online platform taking the example from the Iraqi case my question is how this platform looks like is it like an open all-inclusive platform is it institutional how is it going to work who is going to be responsible for it which institutions well that's a good question I mean this platform exists more in my imagination it's just an idea I wanted to bring out because I'm a little bit worried as I said about this particular part of Syrian heritage that I really see in danger and there is not really much focus there's not much talk about it there is a lot more focus on the archaeological heritage so my idea would be that it would be as open as possible not restricted I mean it would have to be moderated in a way or another but it should really be something that was easily accessible for people who are not familiar with art institutions and so on so I would prefer it not to be overwhelmed by theoretical discussions but more image-oriented as accessible to everybody anybody who has an image of a particular site of a particular artwork also the artists themselves could put their images on this site and my idea would really be like it would be very open very accessible somebody would need to set it up I'm no expert in it so it's I can't really do it actually the same question I have from you and on the suggestion of Charlotte this online platform you are a community development expert initiation development so what you think about this proposal and about the stakeholders the people or also integration of this idea into what UNESCO hopefully will start to do in Lebanon what are your suggestions for promoting this proposal what do you think about it? I don't know what's going on okay so I guess it's a very good idea and the crucial things that leave it the public ownership of the initiative with other stakeholders that's one of keep it an open platform that's another point and I guess it's not under the umbrella of directly under the umbrella of the observatory right now at least I mean try to keep on the momentum of the independent actors and independent institutions Syrian or other international institutions dealing with that and then after that maybe you can link with the others or get some support technically or funding or other kind of so just also I think that's a good exercise to do a mapping through the social media what's going on because maybe there is also another initiative you can build on the impact of this initiative I'm not saying or merge many initiatives together with a new platform so that could be also an option yeah also inside Syria there's many initiatives you can try to link together about that Khaled again I know what a same proposal what do you think what do you think about it how realistic is this proposal at the time is it possible to gather all these artists with very diverse directions that they are working under one umbrella or not I don't know how much we need that but I think it's possible I mean artists now is forced to gather somehow because they are like mostly they are independent they have their own fund and now everybody is individual it used to be actually like the most interesting artwork from Syria is by me is made by independent artists and most of them even if they cooperated with some organization like the Cinema Institute for example in Syria they finance actually few films which is still until now censorship in Syria but it's produced by the state somehow and that's I respect somehow something about it like which is you know there is like an effort like for financing such an expensive art production like filmmaking but now I think there's no other choice than really as also Mahmoud mentioned like there should be like also a civil like a civil efforts to actually make create some platforms where people can gather together and do something instead of staying as individuals and that's no skip out of it I think for the Syrian situation especially under the lack of support from the state and also there is a lot of also support for opposition comes for political ashen does which is also to support other ashen does somehow and that the only solution is like really Syrian sit together and do things which is they think is right for the country because I don't think you know the external support is all the time going to the good things for the Syrian people sometimes is just for the good of their ashen does somehow it's finally a money in Syria like one of the most developed sector in art was the TV production but that's I don't call it a cultural element this is seriously it was just a business it's like oil money it was it's so schizophrenic of like actually exposing something about Syrian but it was actually like contain a huge amount of actor workers and a lot of money income and that was very good for the Syrian artists who work in theater and stay hungry the whole year and so they were like actually an income for them to stay alive and keep doing what they want to do and not work as a taxi drivers after the rehearsals or something so I really believe there's no other solution except to having creating such platforms in a really civil and dependent way out of any external ashen does something one question for Mahmood you showed the this oh okay so just one question and okay you showed this this letter at the end of the tunnel even though showing also this very complicated situation of this area the question is how is it possible to integrate and involve artists and artworks within community development activities or for any works which will end for works for social cohesion for whatever you always talking about where do you see artists and artworks so as I mentioned before I mean definitely that will be one of the entry points to build a local peace in the Syrian society and during my follow up in the social media or in some local dialogues in the social media we did exercise in monthly basis about analysis of the social media in the Syrian society try to follow up and do these analysis and also you will be surprised that not all the Syrian talking about the violence and the conflict I mean 60% of them they are talking about a new chances and life and culture and regardless of the political positions they are still negotiate about music about theater about a lot of artistic work I met I visited most of the exhibitions in Beirut whenever I'm there there is a Syrian artists doing exhibition and I met there from all parties and they are discussion they are talking so that's one of it also during our work with community development and during the crisis the interactive theater for example it was one of the exercise they are doing always to talk and discuss about what's going on and putting solution so there is different expressions could be out of and also the remedy using the painting or using for the psychosocial or with the children and with other Syrian infected groups Thank you, do we have time for Aga here? Actually I think there are two things that are very interesting Before the uprising let's say since the mid-2000s a very interesting independent film movement actually started in Syria with young filmmakers working in experimental documentary formats who were really very committed to society and to address problems in society many of these films were problematic in the sense that they could not be screened in Syria also there was a lack of opportunities for screening such works until Docsbox the film the festival started and unfortunately had to stop before it was really allowed to develop into a really big festival there was also the project of Omar Abu Saadeh who did a series of interactive plays involving the audiences in different theatre plays that addressed different problems of Syrian society so there was something going on that I think is worth connecting to and keeping in mind so there is something to build upon Also Khaled mentioned also the change of the public space and the change of notion of audiences and the producers of the art and culture I mean it's changed during the crisis and it's more towards the public space than the classical way of introducing and producing the culture Thank you I think we don't have time or time to discuss this maybe during the break we can talk more and ask your question from our presenters here I don't know if it's possible I wanted for the closing of this panel to show it to you, it's not possible I just invite you to in case you haven't seen the exhibition just go back in a break to see the work of two Syrian artists and Angelic Sanocyan Thank you very much