 Hi everybody and welcome to In The House Live. My name is David Martins and I'm the director at the Vermont Affordable Housing Coalition or VAHC as we colloquially call ourselves. In The House Live is our monthly conversation about issues impacting housing here in our state, the challenges to access to affordable housing and to talk about the real life experience of everyday Vermonters and how we can all be a part of making change. And with me today is Jess Hyman from CBOEO. I'm also very proud to say that Jess is the vice chair, that's your official title, right? The vice chair of our steering committee which is sort of like a board of directors for VAHC. So we're very happy to have her here today and we're going to talk about fair housing month but first just want to tell us a little bit about CBOEO and who you are and what you do. Great, thank you David. It's such a pleasure to be here today. So I'm Jess Hyman. I'm the associate director of Housing Advocacy Programs at CBOEO and that's a mouthful. Stands for the Champlain Valley Office of Economic Opportunity. And we're one of the state's five community action agencies and we have a whole host of programs all focused on racial, social, environmental and economic justice. And our programs serve primarily folks in Chittenden, Grand Isle, Franklin and Addison counties. And then we also have our statewide Housing Advocacy Programs which include the Fair Housing Project, Vermont Tenants, the Mobile Home Program and also the CARES Housing Voucher Program. And so it's an amazing organization full of a lot of dedicated people who are working with tens of thousands of people all over the state. And it sounds like it keeps you busy. Most certainly, yes. So we're here today talking about Fair Housing Month which is a commemorating, if you will lack for a better word, celebrating really the passage of the Fair Housing Act in 1968. And I just can't help but think about what a period of change it was in the 60s. Particularly in 1968, Martin Luther King Jr. was assassinated on April 4th which was just two days ago in 1968. Robert Kennedy was assassinated in June 1968. The next year was the Stonewall riots. It's very clear at that time in our history, the voiceless would be voiceless no more. And people in all different walks of life in different communities were trying to elevate those voices and make those voices heard and the fact that that work that they did then, you know, I think people like us who kind of work within the community, like they were the trailblazers for this kind of work, you know. And so I just think that we owe so much to the history that happened then. And at the same time, in a way it's kind of sad that all these years later we're still dealing with a lot of these issues, right? And I think that Fair Housing Act kind of calls that, sort of calls that to mind I think for us. But maybe you could tell us a little bit about kind of where it came from, where for that matter the Fair Housing Act, why did we need it, like kind of tell us a bit about what was going on. Sure, great. So the Fair Housing Act came out of not just the call and the need for justice that was happening in the sixties, but from generations of people being excluded from housing opportunities. And you know, dating back to post-slavery times. And what's really interesting is we talk about the Fair Housing Act and the fact that it was passed in 1968 and enshrined all these really important protections into law as being a key point in the nation's history related to housing protections. But there was actually, way back in 1866 there was another law put into place that actually protected people's ability to purchase housing. But it was never really enforced. And over generations, over hundreds of years, so many people were discriminated against in housing mostly because of the color of their skin. And over the years there were opportunities given to mostly white people to move into safe and stable places and communities that people of color didn't have access to. And these policies and practices weren't just things that were happening out there in the market, but they were the result of a lot of government action as well. So policies at the municipal, at the state, and at the federal level all contributed towards creating environments where whole groups of people just didn't have access to safe and stable homes. So that's sort of the background leading up to what was happening in the sixties. And there's really deep history of things like redlining, which you may have heard of, where insurance companies and mortgage agencies would choose areas that were safe to invest in. And generally those were areas where people of color didn't live. And they would write, they would put actually red lines around these maps of cities to show where investments could happen and where they couldn't. There were, there's federal investment in suburbs that had racial covenants that said that only white people could live there. These covenants existed all over the country for many years and some, there were even some in Vermont. And so all these things led to this environment where only certain people were given the opportunity to have a place for themselves and their families to live. And so that combined with all the other injustices that were happening and all the things you spoke about before for, you know, in the sixties really led to this, this crescendo in the sixties of people rising up and not, of wanting to make change in their communities. And there had been efforts to put more protection, more housing protections into law. There had been many efforts, but nothing was getting passed. And it wasn't until after Martin Luther King was as fascinated on April 4th that there was finally this political will to do something. And so on April 11th the Fair Housing Act was signed in 1968. Wow. And for what little bit I've, I've read about it, the, I mean I've read a decent amount about it I guess, but the, but when it finally, when the engines finally started really running, it went fast. It wasn't really a big, there wasn't a lot of big public debate. They, they really drove it through. Exactly. Because it was the right thing to do. Yeah. And what, what, what's interesting too is so, you know, the, the Fair Housing Act itself, it's, its primary purpose is to protect against discrimination and harassment and housing based on certain characteristics of people, protect, call protected classes. And so it provided protection based at the federal level based on race, skin color, national origin, religion, family status, which is, is generally considered having minor children, sex and disability. And so at the federal level, it made it illegal with penalties to discriminate based on those things. But what the Fair Housing Act also did, which is talked about a little bit less, but more so now, which is very exciting, was it also required governments to take action to make changes and to not just protect against discrimination, but to re, to, to redress these historical patterns of segregation and exclusion that had existed all these years. And so there's the term affirmatively furthering Fair Housing, which is another mouthful term. And that refers to actions that municipalities, governments, state governments, federal governments and organizations can take to actually change the systems that have been created to exclude people in addition to, to simply protecting people's rights. And has the, has the legislation been sort of updated along the way? Like they've made additions? Yeah. Yeah. So over the years at the federal level, some of the protected classes that I mentioned were added after 1968. And then individual states have the ability to add their own protected classes. And most have added some. Vermont has added many. You know, here in Vermont, we've added marital status and age, sexual orientation and gender identity as well, receipt of public assistance. And so that is any type of public assistance, you know, housing choice voucher or three squares Vermont or any other public assistance. And the most recent protected class is here in Vermont is protects victims and survivors of abuse, sexual assault and stalking. And that was added in 2019. So pretty recently. And it was part of a whole host of other protect, of other protections for renters as well. And Vermont has a really wonderfully wonky protected class, which is essentially an anti-nimbism protection. And so what that is, it's a protection against discrimination in housing based on the, sorry, a protection against discrimination in planning decisions based on the income of prospective residents. So if, for example, someone is proposing to put in some affordable housing in a community and it is the buildings are in line with zoning and local regulations. And the municipal level, the local, say planning commission says, well, we are going to deny this application because it's just going to be affordable housing. And we don't want to have that type of development here. Well that would be a violation of Vermont's fair housing law because it would be discrimination based on the income of prospective residents. And that has never actually come up in court in Vermont, but it would be really interesting to see that argued out because that type of discrimination, kind of the nimbyism type of discrimination and also discrimination based on all the other criteria that I mentioned, it happens all the time. We are not immune here in Vermont, but often it goes, most of the time it goes unreported, but it doesn't go unnoticed. There are a lot of people who are severely impacted by this and who are limited in their housing opportunity and choice. And I think that the biggest or one of the biggest dangers when we talk about discrimination that is for us to be so naive, I guess you could say, as to think it doesn't exist. Or to think that, if it doesn't matter to think that we don't all have our own biases because we do and I think that we very rarely, I think it's a challenge to really be honest with ourselves and to really kind of recognize where bias lies within ourselves and we often don't want to admit that it exists in our community. And I think probably, I mean, I'm not a lifelong Vermonter, but as a new Vermonter, my perception of Vermont is that it's this wonderfully accepting place that embraces diversity and that it struck me the first time I went on Church Street and I moved here in the summer and it was covered in mainboat flags. It was a gay person. I was like, wow, this is something, you know? And so I know I like to think of Vermont as the kind of place where nothing like that would ever happen, but it does. It happens everywhere. And I think it's part of the fabric, I guess, of flawed human nature. And so I think an important first step is to recognize that it happens and to recognize that even when it's not intentional, that it kind of still happens. What do you think? So today in Vermont, how do you think this, and you mentioned a few ways already, but how has this, has the Fair Housing Act impacted us? Do you think here in Vermont today, how does it, and what areas, how do you think we still need it in Vermont today, I guess is the more pertinent question? Yeah. So we really need it in Vermont today. So we, at CBOEO, we have a Vermont tenants hotline and it's a resource for renters to call with any type of question or concern regarding their tenancy and we get calls every day both on our Vermont tenants hotline and at the Fair Housing Project from people who are being treated unfairly in their housing and sometimes it's totally unintentional. Like you said, a lot of times it's more often that there is implicit bias or that someone is making a decision or treating someone unfairly in their housing because of either a misunderstanding or a something that they haven't done intentionally. But the impact is still there, whether their intent was pure, the impact can be discriminatory and can be really harmful to folks. And so I think where we see it impacting in Vermont is, and let's see, let me start over for a second there, when we have a situation like we have here in Vermont, actually in the whole country, where there just simply isn't enough housing, there aren't enough homes for everybody at every income level and in every spot, it's really challenging for people to find housing and sometimes to maintain their housing as well. And so there are the criteria that people can use when they're determining who they're going to rent to or who they're going to sell to or can be influenced by their bias and by the fact that there are so many people looking. And so often we see people making decisions based on their own perceptions of whether someone deserves that home or whether they feel that they'll be successful there. And a lot of these decisions are really rooted in racism and classism and ableism and all the things that drive people's choices intentionally and unintentionally. Well, yeah, we have right now, as you well know, the Just Class Eviction Bill is trying to make its way through the legislature, which would say that in the city of Burlington, because the people of Burlington voted and expressed that this was a desire of theirs. I like to point that out. But just because the kind of the nature of, because we're a Dylan's rule state, the legislature has to empower the city to enact that that they had voted on. And so this bill would say, or this ordinance would say that a landlord has to have just cause in order to evict someone in order to terminate tenancy. And it's been interesting hearing a lot of the conversations that have been happening in the committee rooms at the state house about it. And even just in conversation with people because what we hear kind of consistently about it is that we have a lot of rental protection policy. So landlords say, well, if we have this or a concern is that, well, the landlord has a tenant who's dealing drugs or harassing a neighbor or what have you that they're unable to without evicting with no cause, they don't have a way to remove that tenant because the burden of proof is too great to prove, you know. And when I hear that, I just think to myself, well, that's precisely why we need a just cause eviction legislation. Because if I'm a landlord, I would be the best landlord going and attentive and but I'm a person who has bias. And so if a situation comes up, there's gotta be, I think that some of these laws help provide guardrails. My dad used to say, he keeps the honest people honest. It helps, you know, it kind of helps provide a way so we don't have to worry as much about it because there's this objective policy in place that protects everyone that is keeping people safe, you know. I think we see some of the discussions in the rental housing safety bill and trying to move that forward. The idea of that if health and safety inspections happen at the municipal level, there's this whole other dynamic because the town health officer is friends with the landlord or friends with the tenant who's calling. And they feel awkward filing it. Like there's this whole personal level that brings with it, bias that good and bad, right? And so once again, helps provide some guardrails that keep the situation objective so that people can have access to safe equitable treatment. And I mean, I think that things particularly like just cause eviction helps provide more protection against discrimination in housing. I totally agree. And it levels the playing field. And that's really what the Fair Housing Act is all about, is making sure that everyone has access to this important resource, which is our home, because our home determines so much about our lives. And from where we're ability to get to work to where our kids go to school to access to recreation and environmental factors. And if we're telling people that they can only live in certain parts of the city, certain parts of the state, certain parts of the country, because of who they are, then we're making it impossible for everyone to have equal access to the opportunities that everyone has the right to. Housing really is a human right. Yeah, absolutely. We have in Vermont, I think the statistic is that BIPOC home ownership is, to say disproportionately low, is putting it mildly, frankly. It's like less than a quarter, right? I'm sure that built into that is some of these tragic systemic realities of the past. Do you think that we still, whether at the state level or the national level, are there still systemic, some systemic racism that we need to, or isms of various sorts, that we need to unpack? And how do you think we do that? Absolutely, yes. I mean, the systems that we have now in housing and financing, even in education to a certain extent, they were all created to do what they do, which is exclude certain people from opportunity. And we need to make big changes. And that can be really tough to do. And one thing that some of the work that we do at the Fair Housing Project at CBOEO that I think is really powerful is working with groups at the local level, local housing committees and local planners and other folks who are interested in housing issues in their communities. Because often some of the systemic issues have come from how we've decided how land can be developed and where homes can be built and who has access to those things. And those are things that we can change. I mean, you and I sitting here might not be able to change federal housing policy, but we can change the world from this table to this. Well, that's true. How foolish of me not to think so. But we can make a difference in our communities. And we can speak up at our local planning commission meetings. We can join a local housing committee and review our local zoning bylaws. It may not sound like the sexiest work on earth, but those are the things that actually change the systems that will make it possible for everyone to have safe and accessible and stable homes. And so, you know, in terms of the bigger systemic change, there are big things that may seem unsurmountable and there are little things that we can all do in our communities. Right now, that'll make a difference. You know I'm a big Star Trek fan. And a very popular theme in science fiction, which started with an episode of Star Trek that came out in the 60s, is that like if you were to go back in time and change one little thing, it creates this entire other future. And in the case of this one episode, it was a social worker who got hit by a car. And Captain Kirk instinctively felt, well, I'm going to save her. You know, this person is about to get hit by a car. And by him saving her from getting hit by a car, completely changed, you know, hundreds of years in the future, they lived in a completely different future. Because of this one little change, I think that the powerful lesson is that one little change, you know, what one little change can do. And if everybody did one little change, exactly, what a remarkable impact it could have. So what's going on here in Vermont for, is Fair Housing Month, is this a national kind of celebration, or is this a Vermont thing? It's, well, although Vermont likes to take credit for just about everything. This is a national, Fair Housing Month is a national celebration. And so organizations all over the, and communities all over the state here in April are celebrating Fair Housing Month. And, but I would like to think that what we do here in Vermont is a little, it is a little special. Because we take it as an opportunity to not just raise awareness about the importance of Fair Housing and the essential protections that people have and what to do if you're experiencing housing discrimination. And we also use the time to really celebrate what inclusive and diverse communities mean and why they're so important. And so what we do is, together with a whole bunch of partner organizations, am I allowed to name them and give them some props on the TV here? Yeah, we partner with the Vermont Department of Libraries, with the Vermont Human Rights Commission, with Vermont Legal Aid, the Vermont Affordable Housing Coalition, of course, the Vermont Department of Housing and Community Development, CEDO here in Burlington, Burlington City Arts, the Old North End Art Center and Community School. Art's so wonderful and a whole bunch of other organizations and sponsors. And we put together with their partners a series of events that focuses on both education and creativity. And so by focusing on, by using art to connect people to Fair Housing concepts, we are able to really engage a lot of people. It's a way for people to really think about what home and community means and to express that through art. And so we have a number of different activities and projects going on throughout the month. You can find out about them at fairhousingmonthvt.org, including a community art project called the Heart and Home Community Art Project. We've sent out almost a thousand art kits to libraries and housing organizations all around the state. That includes paints and some little prompts so you can get inspired and then send pictures of the art to be part of an online gallery. We're partnering with Art's So Wonderful, which is a youth organization here in Chittenden County for an art contest and exhibit as well as some civic engagement and housing justice events that include music and food and all sorts of fun. There's an exhibit at City Hall in Burlington that has information about the history of the Fair Housing Act and important protections, what to do if you're discriminated against in housing, and other information. We have some educational workshops as well. There's a Know Your Rights workshop on April 11th in partnership with the Peace and Justice Center. We have Fair Housing Trainings and Round Table Discussions for Landlords as well. A series of webinars called Fair Housing Fridays, which happened on the 15th, the 22nd, and the 29th. There's also, the Vermont Affordable Housing Coalition is having its Housed 802 Community Meeting on April 26th, I believe, with a focus on Fair Housing, and there's a whole bunch of other events happening. I encourage you and everyone out there to check out the website and to get involved. I may have already looked at the website. I bet you have. There's a lot of planning must go into all of this. Is there a committee kind of that, or is this a CBOEL kind of drives it? Yeah, so we coordinate the events, but it's really done in partnership with all the organizations I just mentioned, and other folks as well. And so there are folks at the local Burlington level and at the state level who have been meeting and talking about this. And a lot of people have jumped in to be part of it because it's, as I said before, in the Fair Housing work, a lot of the times we feel like we're shaking our fingers at people and saying, you're breaking the law, this is not right, or we're trying to help people who are in really tough situations. The positive celebration aspect of Fair Housing Month is something that is really easy to get people on board of all types. It's always easier to invite people to a party. Exactly, exactly. And to show what's working. There's so much in our community and in our world that doesn't work that when we can really showcase what community can and does look like, it makes a difference. Absolutely. Well, thank you, Jess, so much for thanks for joining us and for sharing with us about Fair Housing Month and sharing your expertise. And I'll say personally, thank you for, Jess was on the part of the hiring committee, so I thank you for bringing me to Vermont. Well, it's really a pleasure to be here today, David, and we made the right decision when we brought you here. I didn't pay her to say that. I think our viewers know that the coalition is made up of well over 80 members, some of individuals and many organizations, but they're not all housing organizations, but many housing organizations. And it's a wonderful table of years of experience and talent and folks who just have invested so much of their heart and soul into this important work in Vermont. And so it's always wonderful to be able to have some of those voices with us. So thank you so much. Our next broadcast will be in June, and we're going to talk about housing and the LGBTQ community, because June, of course, is Pride Month. And so we'll have a guest or two for that conversation then, and I hope that you'll all join us. And for our last minute to take us out, Jess, if you could tell everybody to do one thing to help make a difference in our housing crisis in Vermont, what would it be? Wow, way to put me on the spot. If everyone could do one thing, I think you should meet your neighbor. Go next door, knock on the door, say hello, and have some cookies together. I like that. I like that a lot. Jess, thanks again for joining us, and we will see everybody out there in June.