 Hi everyone, thank you for joining us tonight. The alumni career pathways series as a collaboration presented by the alumni relations and career development and work integrated learning offices. Before we get started, I would like to acknowledge this panel is being moderated on the unceded territories of the Musqueam Squamish and Saluteuth peoples, who are the rightful protectors and guardians of this land marked on a map by Vancouver. To introduce myself, my name is Sarah Mulchan. I'm an artist here in Vancouver, where my work dissects private and public disclosure and parasocial relationships. I represent the alumni relations office here at Emily Carr University, and I am an alum myself graduating in 2015 with a BFA in visual arts. The alumni career pathway series has been created in collaboration. And through these panels we hope to demystify different career paths for both current students and early career alumni. Tonight's panel highlights film and the multiple career pathways available to filmmakers, animators and artists who are working with moving art. The panel is being recorded and will be available to watch after on the leeway dot ca under resources. The leeway is the social and professional networking site available to all Emily Carr University community members students who sign up to the platform between the end of reading week will be entered to win an Opus gift card. At the end of the series, all episodes will be available on arts work, the student and alumni job board, as well as the alumni website at ecua.ca. I'm delighted to introduce Shannon McKinnon director of career development and work integrated learning. The career development and work integrated learning office works with alumni and students to assist them with their professional development for one on one advising sessions and co curricular activities. Shannon will be moderating tonight's panel and introducing our panelists over to you Shannon. Thank you and good evening. And that was a lovely introduction sorry my cats just jumped up on here. I want to thank all of you for joining us tonight. This evening we have an amazing panel comprised of alumni here to talk about the career pathways and professional journeys in film. Before we dive into the into panel introductions. We're going to launch a quick poll just to find out how many of you are students alumni and faculty just so we can have a better understanding of who you are and what our audience is comprised of. So Sarah will launch that and she can let us know what the results are once it's done. What's your cat's name by the way. His name is Raj. He's a big cat. 17 pounds. I hope we see them. Yeah. I'll go get her just hold on while we're waiting for the poll and open what's happening. Here's the cat. Oh wow. That's my Raj. Wow. He's like get out of here. Did the poll work. Sarah says it looks like we're 50% here 5050 almost. And the poll then. Okay, Sarah. Okay, so just sharing the results there. And hopefully we get some more students in here. All right, so it looks like there's eight students one faculty and six alumni, including the alumni, not including the alumni that are here, or is it all those six alumni. All right. Just give me one second. Okay, so moving on. So tonight's format for the panel to give you an idea of what to expect will take a few moments for each of the panelists to briefly introduce themselves tell us what year they graduated and if you would like more information about this evening's panelists are sorry we'll put a look post a link into the chat. And you can see their bios there. And this will be followed by a series of topics for discussion. And then lastly we'll open up the breakout room to give you an opportunity to speak directly with panelists. Great, so let's get started with panel introductions. So tonight's panelists are Lawrence, the lamb, Brian Nord Stewart, Zorn Drago. Ivan Lee, Cheyenne, rain legrand. Okay. And so, how about we start with, I'm just going to go with who how I read this out and we'll start with Lawrence, please share an introduction to your current work. Great. Thanks everyone for joining. I'm Lawrence limb I started. I went to Emily car in 2011 I believe. First, actually not in film I was doing. I was traveling not really sure what I was doing. I transfer from another program was did a little bit of calm. I was do visual arts, and then I took a, like a video class and I kind of fell in love with it just with that process of editing. I graduated in 2016 actually I kind of like took a maybe like a year off for my internship. And I just kind of took my time a little bit. And I, I kind of became the work that I have been known to do in the, I like to do or sort of like mostly narrative work but I also work a lot in documentaries I like to have a foot in both worlds. It's a lot mostly my work for money I edit my documentaries. I did a lot of work out of film school for digital agencies on doc stuff but my personal work I like to do sort of like music coming of ages or like coming of ages slash dramas in sort of like a music centric world that explore some kind of underground space. And, yeah, I'm working out my first feature, I got telephone funding for my first feature, which will be filming this fall, which I can talk about more later. Congratulations. Okay. And Brian. Hello, everybody and Brian. So I agree went I graduated Emily car in 2009. Yeah, I was in the program as it then was called which was the film video integrated media and the work that I started doing an Emily car that I'm still doing is scripted comedy. And so far it's been a lot of coming of age stuff like Lawrence and mostly awkward comedies about sex. Which is funny. But I also do like I just worked on a Netflix horror show horror TV series for a year. I was assisting the cinematographer, and then occasionally I'll do corporate work, if the timing is right or if I'm interested. So here I have also worked in the camera department for various things as well which is just helpful when you want money or people around you instead of working by yourself. Great. Thanks so much. And Zora. I graduated in 1997, and it was called just film and video and no sign of digital media yet. And ever since I've been working on different projects in a spectrum from documentaries to short films dramas, comedies and even music videos. And right now I'm working on on a variety of projects. One is documentary with Karen James and dance company where she's visiting some of her dances from 24 years ago it's called stone soup. And I'm also developing a short drama for online format. When I was talking to, we were in my writing and producing partner, Victoria Larry Moore, we were talking to a quibi but you know what you know we really don't know what happened with quibi and so we're just going to be developing it on our own. And just recently I optioned upcoming book that's in a print right now by award winning crewriter, Larry loyal, and that's, that's, we're planning to make it into a feature film and just finishing my documentary that I filmed in Costa Rica on a very unique and eccentric artist call beto and documentaries call beto mi amigo it's a short format documentary and, and also still promoting my feature film that's playing on Amazon Prime and at still a few other festivals around around the country so that's what's keeping busy lately. Thanks. Okay. Ivan. Thank you, young people this is Ivan. I graduated in 2019 in the animation program a year before it was separate into 3D and 2D so it was just animation in general. Prior to graduation I've worked in mostly the visual effect department in motion pictures. I've worked on a movie called sonic the hedgehog and the reason why they hired our batch is because they, some of you may know that they, they change the design halfway through and extended the release date so I so I was fortunate enough to get hired at that point. And then I went on to work on a movie called cats the musical the movie, and eventually the studio shut down and fired every one of us. And then I went on to work on some other movies such in TV shows such as the Mandalorian, the Twilight Zone season two, and currently I'm working in a visual effects studio and we just finished its movie called Justice League the Snyder cut. Yeah, that's pretty much I'm, I'm doing for studio work and when it comes to personal work I primarily focus on 3D animation and occasionally I might make some live action film, if I feel like it. That's great thank you. And last but not least Cheyenne. Hey everyone. Thanks for joining today. My name is Cheyenne. I'm from Big Stone Cree Nation currently reside in Edmonton. So I'm kind of unique to this group because I started out as a visual artist at Emily Carr. And then I kind of my work organically became video I do performance a lot which that becomes like a video. I work in sound. So I work pretty interdisciplinary. And usually my video work ends up becoming like installations. So I graduated in 2019, my grad piece was a four channel wall installation. That kind of was just addressing what it is to be an indigenous woman. And that was the first performance I did with my mother in several different locations. And after I graduated, I, I actually received the BMO first art award for that piece. And then I also did receive the early career development grant to work with the mentor Rebecca Balmore, who is also a performance artist. And I also got latitude 53 here in Edmonton as a curator. So many hats. I'm curating a show currently about the languages of 2d6, which will be public works, which was really nice because we're in a pandemic so it'll be really nice to have people access the work still so. Yeah, it's a little bit about me. It's great thanks so much. Okay. So we'll get into I, you gave us an introduction of your current work. And some of you also touched a little bit about what you did when you first graduated and that's the next question so, you know, moving through again so Lawrence if you could tell us a little bit about, and I know you touched on what you did when you first graduated but if you could maybe expand on that tell us about what it was like for you when you first graduated from Emily Carr as a young emerging artist. I definitely took advantage of a lot of internships. Actually, I think in my third year I did an internship with a this social business accelerator and they wanted to make a cool video, and then we shot nine hours of footage and we ended up making like a document a feature like documentaries that we put online for free. And I think that's like how I first kind of got into doing more doc stuff and editing. And then am I fourth year I did an internship with point blank creative which is like a digital agency that focuses on more like values based clients and organizations and NGOs. And then I started to just work like be their person with that wears many hats or PA their assistant editor their did their person who picks up the gear and drops it off and person who picks up coffee and stuff in the morning. So I did that for about. I did that for about two and a half years. And at the same time I was still fairly active with my own stuff and I was fortunate in that my my grad film. I think it did pretty well and gave me some momentum. It's like kind of had a good festival circuit run where I gone to whistler and and want something there and also like and also like any car help with. And I started like the student festival and in Montreal and blanking said festival this cinema Nouveau. And so like that. It just like it, because we won some like that student film awards. And that really gave some good momentum and spotlighted my work and I kind of I eventually just tried to ride that wave and I applied for crazy eights and did a crazy eights and and I two years ago. I did 2017 I started to work with Yang Wang who is who kind of got me into film in a way of like way back she started the film, a little film festival Richmond. And I volunteer there initially before Emily Carr and she did her own film that take 10 years and I edited with her from 2017 to 2019. And it's kind of like the more work stuff I enjoy working in the independent doc world and that stuff but my for my personal work, I think like writing the wave of like the different making one short and helping that make the next sure and then the talent of telefilm has a talent to watch program their micro budget program the sort of $150,000 grant and you apply with different industry partners and crazy eights was my industry partner, because I had a good relationship with them so they helped me basically vouch for you and so they vouch for my pitch, which was one of the ones picked last year. So a quick summary of what you've done since you graduated. Yes. Okay, so we'll have the same question for you Brian, tell us about what it was like for you when you first graduated from Emily Carr as a student. So I graduated in 2009. And I had done this short film called trolls which was little kids talking about what doing it means. And it was scripted six and a half minutes. And I ended up going to a ton of film festivals with that film including this short film festival called Clermont Ferrand which is in France and it's the biggest film festival in the world and it's kind of like the can of the short film world. And then from there, because I was in that festival. I got distribution the distributors sold it to a number of different channels, both in Canada, the US and Europe and Africa. And so that was kind of sweet because making money off of a short film is really unheard of and then making money off of the student film is probably even more unheard of. And then, so I spent I think it's been like the summer and a couple months to kind of just taking a break from school and regrouping, reconnecting with family and then I started a mentorship program a paid mentorship program with this company called and made productions. And it was through like a work employment program with the, what is now called the CMPA the Canadian media, Canadian media producers Association. So that was a six month contract and I was working on a documentary series about overweight families, losing weight and changing their lives and what I learned about that was that I never wanted to be a producers assistant ever again, and that I really was not interested in working in that kind of like lifestyle television, which was very helpful because I probably would have pursued opportunities down that pathway had I not had that experience and I know that I would have ended up hating it. So then after that I went on EI, which is awesome. I had never been on EI before. I don't think I've been on it since but it gave me the opportunity to create a digital series and film it with a bunch of friends and local actors and people that I had previously met. I made another short film I did more festivals and I, and I got more work based off of all of those things and then like warrants I applied for various funding programs. Some I got some I didn't. And then basically spent a decade trying to figure out how to make the work that I love and want to make and also live in Vancouver. And then since then a couple more digital series later. I can say probably the, you're going to ask this question soon but like, I started thinking about what I was going to do after I graduated. Before I even started Emily Carr, and like Lawrence I was doing a ton of co ops and internships and trying to meet people and get introductions and favors. Both your names because I've worked in co-op for years like 20 years and so yeah both your names from from running that program so yeah. I mean my time at Emily car was definitely. I think I don't know that I was the exception but I very much was like, this is the way that I want my education to happen. So how do we make that happen. And it was really great that the people at Emily car including yourself allowed me to do those things while still getting all of the credits and graduating as I was supposed to so. Great. Thank you so much. So, Yes. Once, once I was done with Emily car graduated, I just wanted to fill in the void where I needed to to sharpen up my skills because some things were not offered at Emily car and especially like getting into the film biz working in industry, because I had different certifications and and training that you need to have for different different unions so for example I was I excelled in cinematography. So I wanted to get all the right certification so I sign up for a panel vision course, which is like, which was offered like in LA but they also had a smaller version in Vancouver instead of seven days it was five days in Vancouver and then you had people from the television office coming in and training you and then there was people from 669 the union for cinematographers and so that was my focus at at at the moment. The other things different from for what we just heard is that there were no internships that was like in a mid to late 90s. I graduated 97 there was not really opportunities for internships where the companies will take you there were like Rainmaker which was a digital company doing special effects and and editing. They offered here and there, depending, but because there was a lot of involved training and learning curves it so they just kind of if you go in early they will you will get some foot in a door if you don't then you just have to learn your stuff. For example, when I graduated there was no digital editing right after in 97 98 Emily Carr acquired first avid and that's how it was shared by like, not just film department but also animation and there was also multi media department and some, some design communication design students also had access to that sort of like the line up was pretty, pretty big and long so I had to learn that subsequently afterwards and the, and also focus was, do I want to work in a film industry at Hollywood because it was just becoming a big thing. 1998 1999 Vancouver broke it one billion production budget, a lot of films are being filmed and I did my stint in a in a Hollywood Nord industry for about six months by realize it wasn't really fulfilling for me it wasn't creative. I had to express myself everything was like a like instant soup you know you, you have everything's packaged in LA brought here done nobody likes to hear your input. They on the time, they just want to shoot and go collect tax credit and go back to LA so with few of my classmates and colleagues from Emily car we decided to stick together and support each other in different project and so we started like looking for opportunities where we can do our stuff and also some stuff that will make us an income and where we will be able to support and and also equipment was expensive back then so and so one person had their digital camera I let's say for example I had the lights I had microphone and, and it's just a collective on on on a simpler primitive base by the pork it worked for a while and I'm glad that that was part of that so. Thanks. And we will continue Ivan. Similar to Zora and right after graduation I do see the need to sharpen some of the skills that I believe I'm still lagging, which is the main reason why I've joined the visual effect industry. And certainly I have my own like and dislike towards the industry. You know, sometimes it's, there is no creativity involved in individual effect industry at my position, in particularly as a junior artist you're pretty much just focus on execution in a way and there is a sad possibility that the current procedure or the current job title that you're holding can be fully replaced in an automated way like with the advancement of technology, but I do see the need of getting to know how it at least have a sense about how it feels like because I can see it, get benefit benefiting my own my own personal work in in a way. And yes, from a graduation film I graduated last year. Sorry, not a year and a half ago at May 2019. And my graduation film is called finding Uranus. It's also a coming of age. Yeah, romcom movie about Uranus, and it's an astronomy ish movie. And it's still going on festival circuit. It was on, let's see, closer by it's on the Vancouver International Film Festival, Vancouver, Vancouver Asian Film Festival and also, and also a couple more in Ottawa and some some a few in Europe. And it's still it's still going on because because COVID kind of delayed some of the screening date. And I've also decided to release it online a little bit early, as I expected and for some reason it also garners and unexpected, unexpected, let's see, unexpected following on Vimeo because there's a Vimeo create a career, like a programming thing called short of the week they saw the film and they they reposted that. It's a big deal. It's a big it's fucking hilarious to get that's pretty much it yeah just graduated year and a half ago so nothing I know I was just thinking that too I know it's the same with that was shy and it's kind of like okay you know when you first graduated two years ago. Okay, so and now on to you shy and how tell us about when you first graduated from Emily car two years ago. I graduated yesterday from Emily car. I think one thing I always speak about when I talk about graduating is that it, it for me it was a very like scary thing like I was very scared of what what what's what's next now like I finished school like what's going to happen and in my last year was when I decided I was like okay I think I need a mentor like I don't. I need to know now how how to make it in this art world so that's when I just reached out to Rebecca Belmore and like began working with her and then that did extend into the early career development grant. I think a big part of being out of school was being a part of a mentorship which I found was really helpful and accessing all of that knowledge as well as like that network. Rebecca had was really great for me. And then I also while I was doing the early career development grant I also was working for capture. I did that. And then part way through capture that's when like the pandemic started to hit so I actually decided to return home I was planning to return home anyways because for me in my practice I'm often like performing with the land or recording the land and for me I felt I wanted to be closer to my territory which is here in Edmonton and in America which is four hours up north. So, yeah for me I moved back and again that was also very scary because I feel like I had, I had made so much of my roots and connections in Vancouver and so I was like okay what's next now so when I returned it was really nice I was really welcomed and I was offered this position at latitude, which has been really great because I am able to like also learn another skill like I've never really thought of myself as a curator, but I'm also doing that now so that's really nice and So yeah that's my big project right now is like curating these seven public space works and they're like quite big like we received funding from the city so yeah it's allowed us to make the show quite big it's going to be up for six months. And I kind of, because I work with video and sound there's like a video in it, sound element like these parts are going to be like, you know the sound will be installed outside that they were getting like a big video screen to kind of put in a window front, and are my main goal right now latitude we're hoping to actually get a screen similar to Grunt Gallery I don't know if you guys are familiar with their screen. So Edmonton doesn't have anything like that so that's kind of like one of my big goals is to, they're hoping if we can make that happen and that would be my project for the city is curating that art screen, film screen whatever it's like a screen for many different video forms to exist on so that's like my big end goal. Yeah and then I, I think I got the, I'm like trying to look at my CVM. It's been like a short amount of time but yeah so and then I got the BMO first art award and that was really lovely because I got to go to Toronto and meet other artists and network through that so yeah that's kind of yeah. A lot of amazing things. Thanks so much for joining us tonight. Okay, so I'm just going to, I'm going to actually rotate it around again. So starting with with you, Cheyenne, how did you first garner the attention of industry studios or galleries in your case. That's a good question I feel like for me. I've all even with, for example, Rebecca Balmor I've always like have this ability to just like ask, and I feel like that's one thing that I've spoken about before and panels is that you just like really don't know until you ask and for me, I would, you know, it's all it's a lot big part of it is networking and it's like this kind of funny world, what weird world to exist in. But it's kind of about yeah like networking and just really putting yourself out there. One thing I struggle with and I hear a lot of other alumni struggle with is to create work, especially as artists and if it's the same for film but as artists I know that we struggle to after graduating because, you know, you don't have an assignment that's due. So really pushing yourself to keep creating and keep putting that work out there and if you keep doing that I think that opportunities will arise. Great. Thank you. Okay, Ivan. I think I was gotten her attention of the industry in the studio. I think I might accidentally answered that before but basically, but if you want to elaborate on it. Definitely so when I graduated I submit my graduation film to quite a few local animation festival. And I send them in Canada because the good thing is animation festival tend to be free for a mission for Canadian student. And I was a student at that time so I was fortunate, fortunately able to do so. And during one of the screening. One of the festival called Ottawa International Animation Festival they selected this film as part of the, I think one of a watchlist thingy that they've decided to promote in a circuit screening throughout the entire Canada so a lot of people were able to see this film in a theater setting. And then when, when the, when the COVID situation happened I decided to upload my film online on a public space on a public internet spaces and people were able to see that and this is where the online curation happens up. So, yeah, that's pretty much it. Okay, well thank you. Zoran, how did you first get Garner the attention of industry or studios or It was with definitely with a graduation film and previous few works. For example, I was, I knew that in a fort year I knew that the end is coming and I did not know if I will have the access to all of the equipment and facility as I had access at Emily Carr, which I mentioned was the big thing. So I was really prolific I think I had, I had my grad film I had my grad video and I had like three other work pieces of work that were also part of my like a grad graduation universe. And so what happened is, I'm, I really like to strategize in a way of how how I'm going to launch something like the film the video that kind of stuff so I was looking. And back then there was no like we had internet but not that many festivals were listed on online you had like I have I still have the little book this stick that listed all the festivals and and my advantage was that my folks had a fax machine, and I would like stay late at night and fax to all the festivals, asking them for for the application forms or asking them for any insight information so in the morning I would just like sometimes waking up in the middle of the night just to change the paper and then to cut it out and then start filling in the morning and then mailing the VHS tapes that was the that was the other thing so it was just the getting my my my film my short films out there, and then getting the feedback and then started to garner like there's a connection there where where the festivals were screening it and yeah that that was that and then the being associated with the projects afterwards just like trying to figure out which projects I want to work and be part of and I was lucky to be part of the UNICEF project the orange boxes and that was the first commercial that played on all the networks in Canada and their logos because you know vctv doesn't want to have a cbc logo on the something and share it so and this was really well done and we did it with like no budget because it was UNICEF and but it just the feedback afterwards and notoriety was was great and and welcome so oh that's great oh uh rion oh you're on mute um I can hear you now okay great so um I definitely post graduating like the biggest attention I got was with my grad film but um like Zoran I was um before I had graduated I a friend of the family of mine um suggested that I go to this industry panel and the Victoria film festival which was called springboard and they still do it um so I went and I had burned a bunch of DVDs that had two films that I made while I was on exchange in Australia which was half of my third year and half of my fourth year um right and so with like one of the first industry connections that I made doing that was in the city um and there she was at foundation features and they were doing this film The Imaginarium of Dr. Pernassas which was um Heath Ledger's last film but I just walked up to her and she was on a panel and I said oh I'm a filmmaker I go to Emily Carr here's a DVD of some of my films and I did this so many times I don't even I can't count but dozens and I think three people actually ever watched it and emailed me back and she was one of them um and then when I was going around with trolls my grad film to festivals it was the same thing burning a ton of DVDs not VHS tapes but it was DVDs and um just asking like Cheyenne said just asking people to watch my work and doing research about other people so that I could compliment them before I asked them for a favor which was very helpful and I highly recommend that everybody do that I still do that all the time um and you know as Cheyenne also said like keep making work and work with the people that you have around you and like help each other out because um those those parts of filmmaking don't change with technology you still need to have people helping you so that you can make better work that's great yeah thanks okay Lawrence yeah just to kind of go into more detail of what I was mentioning before and uh Brienne actually reminded me that I like I kind of went through this similar process in that um like the grad film did well like it wanted um best student short at Whistler and also at the Leos but just because it wins the awards doesn't mean people see them so like it was even at those festivals still had to like um I think I just I can't remember if I use a USB or no I was just like I was just collecting cards and I would just like email I would just have like a huge stack of cards at the end of every festival um and email folks and sort of actually like create a report I think I developed a um a more genuine way of doing this I think and it shows like just throw the links in everyone's face um watch the film you know but I think at the more like film fest and film festivals and networking events I realized how um that happens a lot and it's like having genuine connection and relations with with people in the industry is something that is um important for yourself you know like really finding those people that you love the work of and and kind of connecting with them in a genuine way and not just like having a cookie cutter you know like sort of response which I was doing in the beginning um but so winning I think like it was like the Leos and um I think that helped with my crazy eights application because I had applied for crazy eights which if you don't know it's like the one of Vancouver's oldest and largest film competitions I tried the a year before I didn't get in and I worked with some I worked on a now friends short Joe McCarthy and I met a lot of good folks on on there um which I I always you know recommend working on other people's stuff uh and then I think when I did the crazy eights because of weight how they what they do it the way they do it like with create like having the gala and having a lot of industry folks come to the screen I think that was another it gave a lot of exposure to my work to the industry and I just kind of yeah like I said try to ride the wave I did a story hive music video edition after that and um yeah music videos for BC creative and every project was just sort of like a whole thing with like getting it out on trying to find a bigger splash on some sort of platform online or festival and um just trying to have people engage with it and um yeah I think it's kind of been it's kind of been like a sort of like a similar process to every every project but just trying to like perfect that a little bit every time um yeah and and I also wanted to say like I think like looking at Ivan's work his short film I feel like he really like if you look at that film you really like see Ivan's voice and I and I kind of looking at other people's work I feel like when you make like your grad film or film after or you know whatever piece of work. After grad after film school or after art school. It's like it's I find it's like the most the stuff that really resonates with people as a stuff that is like you can really hear the person's voice and it's like it stands out amongst everything else that you're seeing and yeah. That's great. Thanks. Okay, I feel like we kind of answered this question. I'm so I'm going to let anyone who wants to jump in and answer this do with this question if they feel that they didn't answer it. I wanted to piggyback on what Lawrence just said, as far as networking in business cards and making a genuine connection is that it is really important to make a genuine connection so something that I started doing when handing out my own business cards was writing on it where I met the person and what we talked about, which I would also write on their business card so if I was the first one to reach out I would say hey we met at the Austin Film Festival at the Irish after party and we talked about how we both love the band. Okay, go. I don't know something like that where because like otherwise you just have a bunch of cards that don't have faces on them and you and you often drink a lot of alcohol at festivals or industry events, or somebody does so they're not there. Their, their moggy is going to be foggy, their mind, their memory is going to be foggy about it. But like, I still get emails from people who have turned my business card into filters when they roll joints, because I wrote something funny on the back of it and they remember me because of it. That's all. That's a genuine connection for sure. Just to riff off that I heard of someone's process of like creating a spreadsheet where yeah like spread like a spreadsheet of all the contacts and like noting these are the people I want to like stay in touch with. Yeah, because there's a lot of people and also networking at those events where you drink and dance are the best way. I feel like those are the most, the best ways to network, when you can have fun with somebody and not just talk business. I agree. Okay, so the question that I was going to ask is, so what it feel free to jump in on this I'm not going to ask directly, what helped you to get to where you are. And what advice would you have for others if you if they want to follow in a similar follow a similar path. So, what was influential, effective on the forefront. For me, and I'm sure anyone who's ever tried to be an artist in some way. It's definitely perseverance, which is not easy and persistence. But the other thing that really helps is having a very low cost of living, which is not possible for a lot of people but if what you're doing is really the thing that you want to be doing spending a bunch of money that you don't have on stuff you don't need is not helpful. I'm not saying that because nobody talks about accounting at art school or budgets for spreadsheets or how to do any of that. Oh, do you want to talk to me about it, but like I know a lot of people who did not get to make their choices based off of what they wanted to do that with their career, because they were paying off credit cards or going out for dinner or had a great board job or something but it's really hard when you're first starting like unless you get a full time job somewhere which you're working on as like crew or tech crew like it's really hard to sustain yourself while creating your own work when you know so definitely don't spend money you don't have one shit you don't need and doesn't support your art. Does anyone else want to talk about what was influential for them on getting them to where they are now and what someone can do to follow a similar path. If I may. I would, I would I can't stress enough it's focus. It's focus and then just figuring out what's what are your best strengths and just like pursue that to be the best in that field, and then help, like if you're if you're working with someone if you're collaborating so like if somebody has their strength as audio and yours is video it's like it's there is a synergy right there. And that's the thing just having focus exactly knowing what you want. I known, not just my classmates I know people who were also in film and video and after everything was said and done the family car they either made their career. And in the film industry or on their own or just like packed up and gave up on that and and I like it's just like knowing what you want to do and what you want to pursue and what field that is it's just lighting audio camera and then just going for it so. And you were going to say something Cheyenne. Yeah, um, I think for me it was like apply for everything like I apply for grants apply for shows apply any calls you see like, I think that helps me a lot because you're not going to get them all but you might get one and that's amazing and one thing I learned that just this year was like the rules are the ways of thinking through being nominated for things. I always thought you know it, someone needs to nominate you but I've learned now that since I've worked for galleries etc that you can actually approach someone to nominate you. And that's something I only learned this year, like you know I luckily I was nominated for some of the things I've gotten but only this year I was like, Oh, that's, that's okay that's normal to do. So it's like just thinking through different ways of getting what you want. You don't need to be nominated you can ask someone to nominate you. Yeah, that's a good piece of information for sure. Yeah. And just to add to that, like, it's the same, like, yeah, sort of creating your own opportunities like asking if there's shadowing opportunities or auditing opportunities or like if there's a direct a local director in town. It's like, Oh, you know, like, would you like to kind of like shine what kind of like asking them to be your mentor or like, and yeah. Like asking, asking as well. Good. Well, that's good. Okay, so I'm going to just throw this out here too. Can you share any practical let's Zoran can you share any practical demo real or pitching insight. So demo real, it will be just, that's, that's your opportunity to showcase your work at its best so so all your strengths, all your efforts, all the stuff that you do well, put it in those like three minutes. Attention span these days is no no more than three minutes so it has to be like kick ass doesn't have to be over polished doesn't have to be the best, but just put all your best. Skills so the people can see if your strengths are in storytelling if they're in camera work or if there's there's editing skills or so. And for pitching it's like elevator, what they call the elevator pitch is like try to condense the feature length story or a short film story into those three sentences. You can pick up the elevator pitch like as long as you're taking the elevator, and choose your words wisely. So, so people, or person who is listening to you, they know or they can imagine sometimes you're talking to people who are not imaginative or creative, and they're just the money people, or they're just on the board to decide which which project gets the grant. And it has to the ward or wards have to strike a note so they will know exactly what are you talking about. Yeah, that's great advice. Ivan. So, unfortunately, none of my pictures work before so I'm just going to stick to practical demo rule. When it comes to vision with that and animation practical demo rule. It's pretty straightforward you're showcasing a very specifically brand of skill of in my case. I work in a 3D camera tracking department in the visual effect industry so it's pretty much no tracking like showing showing how the camera movement works and showing how you apply that very specific software that an industry need into into into your show real. And if you have some industry experience if you fall like if you're fortunately work on movies that it's a TV show that's already out. Use those because those are those are the most solid experience that you can you can let your potential employee knows that what you have worked on. I've never worked on that before doesn't don't worry. Some people may say that hey, I don't really have any access to shoot like cameras and stuff. I can't really shoot like a good quality video footage to apply on my visual effect demo real there are also a lot of amazing resources and stock footage is that can be found on various specific technical forums and educational websites as well. So that's pretty much it. Thanks. Any on. So, as I'm like the scripted drama realm or narrative realm. I definitely would say you need to have, I mean if you're working across multiple formats or genres, you definitely need to have different reels for those different genres. Like, I have mostly comedy stuff so applying, sending somebody a comedy reel is not going to help me if I'm trying to direct on a horror TV show. And you also need to know who you're pitching to so doing your homework on what those people want or have already done is very, very important because if you pitch somebody a show that's like, I don't know what movies just coming out. Any movie. Bridesmaids if you pitch somebody the movie Bridesmaids to the people who made Bridesmaids they're going to say well we already made this movie. Why are you pitching this to us this is not what we're looking for. So that's really important. And, and it's not also it's not easy like I've worked with my agents that rep me to try and curate not only like the quick demo real that looks more like a cinematographer is real but also having like complete scenes because it's like having a flashy real that says look at all these cool shots doesn't tell them that I know how to shoot a scene and get all the elements to tell a story in a great way. But then sometimes you don't have enough money to have a million amazing great shots so you want to put that super fancy shot that you did in the montage part of the demo real so that they see it. And you need to keep creating content and we already said that but if you're applying for a job or pitching film and you haven't made a film in 15 years. You're going to seem less relevant to people. Also creating work gives you an opportunity to remind people that you exist. So like I'm I just found out today that when I want my last short is nominated for an award that a festival that I did months ago but it's like it's based in LA and that's great because the people that I just work for I've been trying to figure out how to say hey I'm still here I still want you to hire me for your next TV show. And now I get to say cool news that filming you watched and liked is nominated in these two categories. So, learn how to brag about yourself, I guess is also important when pitching and making demo reels. Lawrence. I haven't made a demo real myself. I kind of, I kind of don't want to. I've seen demo reels be really useful for like cinematographers, as I mentioned and also for editors I've seen. Like, not really a demo real but like, like Jen it for example who edits on. I believe she edits on Game of Thrones, and if not just the trailer house that makes the trailers for Game of Thrones. And, like, Jen it would make these things called basically like the movie trailer mashup, but like, if you look up filmography 2010 2011 2012 13 they're amazing they're like, five minute mashups of movies and it's always like incredible and sensorial just like ecstasy. And it's just like a great display of her editing skills and at the same time. There's another editor I'm forgetting his name. He edited like a spec trailer for Fargo season two which is my favorite, favorite season of Fargo, but the it's interesting like fx their the actual trailer wasn't very good. And I just made a cut his own trailer and it was fantastic. And I think he got he like that gave him some intention and he got hired for his work from that. And I like I hope that I can kind of do the same in the sense of like letting my work speak for me and so like the work that I did on the dock. That's helped me get some more dock work now and the things that I did through storyhive and creative BC. I'm using that as like oh you know I want to do music video for want to do a music video for criminal I want to do some music video for this, you know, another artist and like using that to pitch myself. And, yeah, I don't think there's anything wrong with demo reels but I think it also can be dependent on your whatever role you're looking for into. I like the idea that it stands on its own and I think like a demo reels great but like, you know, like, like the trailer or the, I don't know like, it's nice when it's, it's also like your work can speak for you but it depends on the role again. What about pitching, what about doing pitching. For pitching, I, I feel like it's great when it's, it comes from a genuine place and like it's just not only well prepared and like well written or just like, it just also gives you a piece of yourself like you can see why this filmmaker or this artist or creator is like a perfect fit for this story and the way that the story is told. And I think that. Yeah, I think, like, for example, for the crazy eight pitch and also for my telephone pitch it because it's kind of explores the world of Asian hip hop Asian rappers in Richmond. It's kind of, there's a rhythmicality and a sort of like, I didn't wrap but I kind of just like, there was a little bit of a, maybe like a little bit of a slam poem sort of a player in the way that I delivered the performance but that's just a way that I wanted to make it unique and stand and it was kind of like pitched in rhyme. And so like, you know, I think, I think there's like the words but also how it's delivered and you know like if you can get, you know, the the atmosphere or the mood, you're trying to convey even just in the way that you deliver it or pitch it I think is, is also like those are other elements to your other tools to your have. Yeah. Okay, thanks. Shiana, I know that it's kind of this is different for you because you're not pitching and doing demos for your work. But how would you go about presenting your work say for gallery or what is your advice on that for for portfolios or if you do do some type of, you know, real for submission, how do you submit your work. So I guess for video specifically or my performances I've for me I feel like what's most effective I don't know if it's possible in the film world because films are probably a lot longer than my performances but I really think it's most effective to meet people in person, not possible I know right now but I think you can create a deeper connection with someone when you are meeting them in person so often for example the reason I'm working for a latitude right now is last summer when I'd come home I would I contacted all the curators and Edmonton was like hey would you like to see my work and then we would meet in person and I would just show them like small clips from my performances and my portfolio in person and I felt I felt that was the most effective because I mean it got me this job because they remembered me and then when I was returning they found out and then that's that's how I have this position right now. That's great advice. Okay. So, I think that we've really touched on a lot of you guys have been great I mean I think you've answered a lot of my questions and that I sent you before they were even asked. Okay, I'm going to throw this one out here and anyone can answer it. What experiences have had the most impact on your artistic and professional development. Or you know what I'm also going to throw out the second question which is, tell us about some of your biggest challenges along the way and how you overcame them. I'd like to say that going to film festivals and just really getting life while just just enjoying and getting life and inspiration from other people's works. I feel like going to going to to think going to like going to just a bunch of film festivals you know I think it's just like, it's so great to be at film festivals and I can't wait for that to be a thing again. But even at the virtual fun festivals that they have nowadays is just, it's just great to, you know, enjoy work and get life from that. It can sometimes be as simple as that and just like feeling inspired to be like you know I can't wait to do something like that myself. And I kind of like answering the other question of overcoming a great challenge, but also like answering another question to answer another question that you asked earlier. One thing that helped get me to where I am now. I, my work as an editor and working with the doc that I worked with a filmmaker Ying Wang and she had this film that she had been shot for like over 10 years since 2007. There was so much footage. It's, it was like, it felt like a endless black hole of just like work and there's like there's no end on insight. I think, taking care of ourselves mentally like doing dance breaks and exercising, meditating in the morning, watching films on our videos on our break and just like keeping in love with film and you know I think it just enjoying the struggle like enjoying finding. I think I think also parts of it's like taking care of yourself by keeping yourself inspired like I think that's, but I would I would kind of say that's like kind of learning to enjoy that or find some, maybe that's just more like taking care of yourself. But I think like, yeah, keeping yourself inspired is through other people's work is, I think pretty important. And, yeah. Does anyone else want to answer that. Yeah, I'll give it a go. Editing my own work has probably contributed a lot to my own professional development because I am the person like direct so the thing that I love doing them the most and like that all of this is working towards is directing. In doing that I have learned to write and learn to produce I've learned to edit and so I have done almost all of those jobs for most of the work that I have created. I've gotten to see people audition for things which has given me ideas or having people read things and getting feedback but it all comes down to when you like finally make the film which is when you're finally editing it and you no longer have the theoretical version of the film that's in your work and that's what you actually have to make it. And you have to figure out a way to fix your mistakes or like fix something that an actor did on the day or maybe something that you didn't notice and you're fixing other people's mistakes too. So you're also figuring out how to use the things that you didn't plan for or happy accidents and those can be like the most powerful or meaningful parts of your films are the things that just happened on the day. So that's probably like as far as like what makes me a better filmmaker. So I like just as far as like the most impact on my life is like watching probably watching films like you can't. How do you be a filmmaker if you're not watching films how do you direct television if you're not watching television. You need to know what's what's happening and what's current and like get inspired by it because it's a, it's a lot of work and really expensive to do this thing so you really better love it. I was going to say and so what what challenges have you had along the way but I think you kind of just talked about that with money. Well, I mean that's a practical one that we never that doesn't seem to get addressed. Like, as Aaron was saying like having focus like that's a serious issue is procrastination we all have the different ways that we procrastinate, or we have FOMO and the fear of missing out so I could say oh well Lawrence is editing documentaries maybe I'm supposed to be editing documentaries for Cheyenne's doing these installations with her mom. Maybe I should be working in a more interdisciplinary format as well like you, you can your, you are your, your best advocate and probably like your worst enemy at the same time because if you can't figure out how to make the work you want to make. I'm not going to excel. And I don't know like that's that is probably one of the biggest challenges is just like motivating yourself to do the thing, or what happens when you've got when you've done all of the things you're supposed to do and you think okay I've directed my first music video the music videos are supposed to be flooding in or I've directed my first feature and that's supposed to get me my first directing television. If those things don't happen. Then what do you do next. Yeah, like more into saying, oh I graduated from Emily Carr and I won the best student film at the Leos. Well I graduated from Emily Carr and I won the best student film at the Leos and I also applied for crazy AIDS multiple times and have never gotten it. It's just, you just have to figure out that whatever the thing is that it's going to keep you going because I've there's probably a number of things that I've won or that I've gotten that Lawrence hasn't gotten. But like, it's a it's really you get discouraged, it's could be really discouraging and you know, particularly with the pandemic right now where it's very cost prohibitive, like more so to make work or like it's a health risk to make work. I, I, I don't know how you like persevere or keep going like I took a job on a Netflix show because I wanted to work with people before the pandemic. And thankfully they didn't get canceled because of the pandemic. And hopefully they'll hire me to direct their next show. But like, it's, you got to be malleable, you got to be flexible. Because there will always be challenges. Steven Spielberg still has challenges. George Lucas still has challenges. Zack Snyder still has challenges. Like nobody's giving them $250 million for their dream project that they want to make. They're making, you know, franchises. So yeah. It was done. It was a good rant. There's a lot of advice in there. Good advice. Zoran challenges. My challenge, personal challenge, leaving Emily Carr was not, not having enough business sense. You know, if you get out in the real world and there's contracts, just like even, even if you're doing a video for someone, if it's, if it's a pay gig, and we talked about earlier about pay gigs, business side of it, just like how you do and negotiate your price, how they pay you, in terms of terms, so delivery, and then later other stuff. So that was, that was a kind of a wake up call for me. And I was fortunate. I did not have an internship, but I developed a close relationship with a LA based producer who moved to Vancouver, and he was doing all the shows. And I think he saw my interest in learning things. And so like, I was shadowing him and learning and then he was also, I was gauging to see how on what frequency I can ask him questions that I needed. And so, you know, the ideas, which are really important for if you're sharing your creative content or intellectual IP, intellectual property because somebody who can just easily take and have an experience that not on my behalf but on a few other colleagues of mine whose ideas were taken and developed into it into the project. So that that's the thing is like that, that I, I was not struggling but I was learning and and and trying to learn more, more off and and and just like as I was like, tuning in my creative skills and and stuff. Ivan. Well, it's sad to say that I'm still maintaining a lot of challenges at this point for my personal work and a lot of learning how to brace with rejection is something very common and very normal. So going back to my graduation film, I had for some reason I never showed, despite this film was I think it's based on a lot of North American humor in the North American, more contemporary situation for some reason it had never been shown in despite I've submitted to a lot of festival it would never been shown in America before even in Vancouver the screenings are pretty limited as well. For some reason the main the main screening area is is in Europe. And I'm still dealing with a lot of rejection so that's extremely normal. And the one piece of the biggest challenge at the same time is also to be as open mind as you, as you can, when I was an animation student I've noticed a lot of my peers. When they are at course selection or basically career selection they tend to be very technical specific and for me as much as I understand the reason why because you know getting a job it's most stable way to make a stable income. You know you got to work on the industry but at the same time. I also wanted to take advantage at the student student the learning stage to be more open minded at some something that, you know, on the complete other side of our study and when I was a student I tried to take courses from the visual art major, maybe just basically anything performance that I tried to incorporate some performance art into my into my personal work and maybe even now as well. So, yeah I mean be open minded and to be adaptive and to listen to listen, or maybe absorb knowledge from places that you never expect before this is really important. Right. I'm looking at the time and I'm mindful of it. I'm thinking of doing one. Got a couple more questions here and then we were thinking because we actually don't have a large turnout. So maybe instead of doing breakout rooms will just unmute everyone's mics at the end and we can just kind of have open quiet we can just, how does everyone feel about that. Is that okay. Cool. Excellent. Okay. So, Cheyenne, do you want to tell us about some of the biggest challenges that you've had or a big and how you overcame them. Yeah, I guess mine is really similar to other people I think. Not everyone is going to like your work, you know, we're all different human beings we come from all different kinds of experiences so I think just continue to submit continue to put your work out there and there will be someone who likes it and I think that's a great endorse for you. So, yeah. Thanks. I'm also curious. Brian, do you still engage in like peer community kind of critique and style feedback that you would have received in university do you do still engage with that with your peers. Yeah, for sure. I think that's a great practice. Um, well, so making, making comedy one of the great things is that if you watch it with somebody, you know whether it's funny. Yeah, like you know whether the jokes you wrote are funny because you can hear people laughing with horror films like you'll hear like gasp or whatever. So that's like, I really value showing my work to people in person, because that also ups the stakes rather than sending somebody a URL or URL link for them to watch it on their own because you don't, you don't have to take on those like fresh eyes especially if you're editing your own work you've seen it a thousand times and for me but like there's always a point where I go this totally sucks and it's not funny anymore and I have no idea. Did you get friends to do that with you or peers? For me, like I'll probably get a few people who are not in the industry to look at it but they're generally not going to give me some of the specific advice that I might be needing. Like they might be able to say oh I didn't like who was that to this person I didn't understand that so like that's very valuable feedback. But they're not going to be able to say hey do you have a close up for that shot because that will be funnier and it will make the joke land better. Or take six frames off of this shot because that will land better or the continuity is really bothering me on this. And so you have to figure out like just you know you have to show your work to people and then along the way you're going to figure out who are the best people to do that. And like Ivan just said like about keeping an open mind those people might come from places that you don't expect. It might be from an animator friend or a doc friend or who knows. I tried to recreate that experience during the pandemic, because I was finishing short film and we couldn't watch it all together so I did a zoom call where I can't remember if I just sent everybody the same link and everybody muted themselves but I was like watching their faces watch my short. And that was kind of funny, but it was a great experience and like it's very worthwhile because people are going to see things that you don't or hadn't thought of. That's great. And do you still participate in pure community critique style feedback. Yes. Yes, I think that's important that's that's a skill set that we we learned early on a family car and that's that's the thing that sets us apart from anybody else. I can stress that as well because at Emily car we we develop a difference approach to not just our own work but other people's work and what to see and differentiate and I had colleagues from different places like SFU or UBC and and and it's a different environment in which they hone that skill. And that's that's that's a that's a thing I think it's it's more most valuable thing from Emily cars just like how you perceive it and then. Yeah, that's that's that's one of my one of my favorite things to so. I'm sure the faculty I'll make sure that Christine hears that. Lawrence. I think that basically, I agree with a lot with what Brian said. I think it's important to like if you're writing a script to get as much feedback as you can from not just from anyone you look for people who can be honest and be constructive and critical but also like give you the right kind of, like also for you to ask for the kind of feedback that you are looking for like whether it be broad strokes or, you know, like, you know, what have you. Like very specific notes. It's just, it's just the process of improving like when you like as an editor when you have like a assemble or rough cut you know it's kind of like just getting. I feel like the process of refining and getting testing the waters in terms of like an audience reaction is just like a part of making the work better. Having having those people like sort of like, you know, when you have those collaborators and, you know, friends in the field, you have and having those people you can trust just when you develop those relationships I think it is sort of like you. You have this sort of engagement with them you like you give them feedback for their work and you, you have you can do the same with them. You have those people that you trust with work that you may not like maybe afraid to show somebody like oh I don't know if this is like terrible or this is like any good, you know, having someone that you feel comfortable being vulnerable with is important. That's great. Yeah, I come from like a family of artists which is really nice so my mom's a singer songwriter, my brother was like a fashion line. So I actually usually go to them for advice. Well as like my friends, yeah, like I have a lot of friends that have graduated from Emily Carr that I'm still very close to and. Yeah that that helps a lot as well. And mentors also you mentioned. Yeah, yeah, I think that that as well like the past year. I think having someone who has like such a high expertise and like what I'm working through has helped a lot like I would just send the works as I produce them and then we would just kind of talk about them through together and Rebecca Belmore actually came to my BMO show at BMO and yeah I was really nice like they couldn't display all four videos because it was like a room right it's like too much space to take up so it was just like the one screen. But basically my my work was like I projected the video onto this sheer fabric that I'm wearing in the performance so it creates like a double layer on the sheer fabric and then onto the wall. So they just kind of displayed all four videos on that one sheer fabric, but when Rebecca came in and saw it was the first time she actually saw the installation portion of it and she turned to me and she said you don't need me. And I, and I almost died yeah I was really nice so yeah mentors are really lovely. That's great. Ivan. Yeah, I'm still looking for mentors. Unfortunately, most of my work made before was kind of kind of within personal but I've shown it to a couple of my, my, my peers close friend and they've given, they've certainly given my some advice. And yeah, my parents are my harshest critic. Usually, particularly my dad has some people ask me what are you what are you doing what's the point of doing that. What do you mean finding your reign is what does that mean. What's up with that. Anyhow, yes so a lot of time I tend to give it to to yeah but but occasionally he does have some pretty valuable insight towards my, towards my work as well not not specifically to this film. Yeah, I mean, in a way he, in a way because he is he is and he represent what the outsider thing about, you know, work so I do think that going through them are relatively important. Okay, do you ever show your work to any colleagues or people that you work with or to share and get feedback from them rather than just your dad. The thing is that the industry visual effect artists are very technical leaning so when they have a chance to make a short film which is happening all the time. The work is also based on, you know, narrative of visual style wise it's very industry oriented so it looks really well made it's like watching an amazing short short film that was that you can tell that they have a feature film in mind, and you know all the technical aspect in, and then suddenly you, I was jumping in and I kind of kind of scared them a little bit. But yeah, occasionally I do receive some very unexpected feedback from from from some of my coworkers or friends from coworkers who actually found me on LinkedIn they email me and said hey, I just saw your film in a, in a screening no one really expected, you know, what we are what we are about to watch and definitely got this out of blue so those are fun. That's great. Okay. So, I was going to add that you asking like, like Lauren said like getting people to read your script. That's another really excellent opportunity to network is when you are trying to get the film made. And like talking to pro if you're going to go to festivals or galleries like Shannon is going to if you talk to those people who are programming those things. And you might say hey I attended your festival or I was programmed at your festival and I have this new work and I'm wondering what you think of it, which is also getting feedback on your short but you're also reminding people that you exist and then getting them involved with your next project which is part of building your audience. And like something we haven't talked about it all right now is like online presence and social media but that's a huge thing that people are doing to try and make films is like crowdfunding and crowd financing and letting people know where you're working on as a way to do that I find it very daunting and overwhelming crowdfunding. But it's definitely, you know, kill two birds one stone. Anyone want to jump in on that because actually that's a great topic it's not I've got something a little bit the next question kind of goes with that but so the next question is, what are some good resources, professional affiliations or social media sites to for people to follow or use when starting out. So real early career stuff that's good advice. I mean I would definitely use any and all websites that you can to do your homework like do your research on either festivals you're trying to get grants you're trying to get like what have they previously funded, or even whenever I applied for a film festival I always try to find out who a programmer is find something that is a connection between us and then email them and say hey, I'm, I've already submitted this film or I'm about to submit this film or can I have a fee waiver, but I started with like a compliment about something that is specific to them. And so whether that's LinkedIn or Facebook or Twitter, Instagram whatever I can find from that person. If I know somebody who knows them like that's what social networks are for is it says oh you know 10 people who know this person asked those 10 people that you know to introduce you to that person that you want to me. Exactly. Podcasts are really great these days because sometimes people open up and they talk about their way making and getting their work out there so investing maybe like 20, 20, 30 minutes just listening to a podcast, which podcast. There are different like I mean podcasts like all personal preference, and you know some some some like are really like, for example, in the film podcasts, if I mean that there's another way is like keeping in touch so if somebody wants to contact me I can send them a resource list of podcasts that I personally listen when I have time or if there's a specific guest that I follow, and I want to know more. And then the other thing I wanted to mention is what's really great is with alumni association to keep in touch with other alumni, such as myself or Lawrence or or Ivan and and whoever else and then if they can help out or if you have a you can, you know, a post a question there's there's a ways to communicate and that you know that that's also resourceful and and and if I can personally help, I'll gladly do it so. Thanks. I think I think generally speaking like having like even just having your work, like having a website having. Your, your demo real or your, your shorts or your work on a site and in a way that is speaks to you like presents you in the in the way that you want to be presented and having you know your social media presence kind of like I think it's like a basic, like, like a general like good practice just to, if I if I wanted to look you up I could and see everything that you're about and read up on you. But also like I, I, like, in getting your work out there. I think there's also like for a short example for using a short as an example like, I think, like, there are many like there's like, you know, the platform like what I've been caught on to like for finding Uranus with the short of the week and like Vimeo staff pick and, you know, those are like really great sites to be on but I've also seen and like, you know, cool, like, like boom or now this, but I think also like depending on the subject or your film if you, if you can find the audience like if you're, if it's like feminist then check for example like it gets on refinery 29 or something or like there's like sort of the different platforms that can really connect your work to and to like, you know, this the audience that would resonate it with it most. And I realized that another thing like we were something like press like, you know, having a relationship with journalists or like knowing who those folks are and you've been reaching out and saying like, you know, like, doesn't, doesn't hurt to try to create those like opportunities for them to write about your work. And also like, like for my own project, I'm, because it's kind of around about Chinatown and it's about in sort of in the world of Asian rap, I've been kind of trying to connect with those folks just want to just like be in their social media bubble, and just see what they're posting and engage with them online and actually like engage with the community that that community that will would be like a good audience for the work that I'm making. So those are just some, some thoughts like kind of something that feels something that's like thoughtful you know I think I feel like the, the work is one thing and then like the getting the work out there is like it's its own thing you know it's like a piece of, it's like it's a, it's like a campaign it's like a but it's like a requires as much as almost as much thoughtfulness as the actual work sometimes. So, in the chat here, both Zoran and Brianna put in some different podcasts that you might want to listen to students so check there and see those. I'm going to get into the final question here. Or, you know, sorry I missed Ivan and I missed you Sharon so Ivan, do you have any, anything that you would recommend such as good resources, professional affiliations or social media sites for people starting out. I think what Lawrence and Brianna and Zoran just, just shared pretty good insight. I don't think I have anything to add for now. Okay, how about you, Shayan? Just one specific thing that has been initiated in Edmonton is making space. On Instagram it's makingspace.yag. It's specifically for BIPOC people, which for me as well it's like really nice for me to engage with like Indigenous community when I'm making work about my identity. So, this is a specific, it's like a peer, it's a BIPOC peer mentorship so it's run through Slack. You can message them and they'll add you to the Slack where there's people all across the world, New York. And they just like, they're all sharing links, sharing like callouts, there's workshops they put on, it's really lovely space. Yeah, that's it. I'll definitely share that with students as well. Okay, yeah. The way Ivan, the way Ivan promoted his short fit fruit, just like it makes me want to watch it. He just posted like random pictures of like celebrities with fruit and like Morgan Freeman with fruit or like, I forgot the other ones but that's like it's something that makes me want to watch this phone. I don't even know what it's about, but I want to watch it. So it's unique promotion there. Hey, so do you feel like there's anything that we've missed then that you'd like to touch on? Actually, I might like like to add just one more thing I think talking about there's a thing we're talking about struggle. One thing we were struggling with and just wanted to add that I guess there's a conversation about money and lifestyle and finding balance with, you know, like if you're doing work at a studio or working for a union show or working on set, I think it's really easy to like, I find like the better This isn't always a case but speaking generally, it's like when the money's better, it's like sometimes in Vancouver at least, even like sometimes in the animation industry or the VFX industry, it's like sometimes it seems like when it's easy to get into work, it's like working for other people. And it feels nice to make money but sometimes it's hard to make space for yourself and make that time to create your own work and not be making money and it's always just I think that's like always a struggle, even like doing, or even like doing work that you really enjoy or find value aligned like working on Ying's film like that was a self-finance and so what there wasn't like a whole lot of money there and you know I kind of balance that with like taking you know doing a gig that I'm less invested in, for example, you know, for to, you know, get some, make some money. But yeah it's always, you know, tough with balancing just making time for yourself and I think it's always important to do that, even like, and also I get no folks who like do work for the VFX companies are for working for the studio system are on set and it's like it takes up a lot of energy and it's just a but you know folks still do make that time to do their own thing and I think it's just important to make that space for yourself. My agent, one of the owner of the agency that I'm at he has a philosophy where all the jobs that you take should have two out of three like a Venn diagram like to to at least two things that overlap so cash career or passion. So if you're going to take a cash job is it somehow going to help your career like if I go to work on the Netflix show that just shot here. How is that going to help my career well for me I was working with the cinematographer the director and producer. So that's great for career but it's also going to help me make my next film because I made friends with a bunch of the people that were working on that. Then they wanted to see my short when they saw my short they were like whatever you're doing next I want to help you on it. So that's going to save me cash. The next thing I do because I'm going to hire the best, like technical crew, hire, ask for a favor or maybe hire the crew who make the best films and the best shows where tier one, come out and help me for a day or two to make my next sample, or whatever it's going to be so definitely like if you have passion you want to make your own shows like getting into working as career you can definitely are getting into working as crew for cash. That can trap you but it can also like help create your own opportunities which you also mentioned earlier Lawrence is that you can turn that into another opportunity. That's great advice. Anyone else. Okay. Oh, yeah. Somebody just asked me a question in the chat but whenever I answer that one. Yeah, Brian, are you allowed to tell us what show you're working on now. Well I just saw the show that I just finished it's a limited series so it's going to be seven episodes it's called Midnight Mass and it's the new series from Mike Flanagan he's the writer creator of the Haunting of Hill House and the Bly Manor which were both on Netflix. And he directed Doctor Sleep which was the sequel to The Shining. And then he's got a new show coming up, which is filming in Vancouver and they just announced the cast. It's based on a Christopher Pike novel called Midnight Club. Well I'm thinking, how does everyone feel about if we unmute and we can just, you can ask, we can ask questions.