 Welcome back. It's still the breakfast in Plastivy, Africa. We're set for a major, a first-minute conversation, and you might already know that just as a Leo J. Enneche of a high court in the federal capital territory, Abuja, yesterday, Monday, restrained the federal government of Nigeria and 27 listed commercial banks from suspending, stopping or extending or interfering with the currency redesigned terminal date of February 10, 2023. Or issuing any directive contrary to that date. Also restrained were the president, President Mahmoud Buhari, and of course Central Bank of Nigeria and the governor of the Central Bank of Nigeria, Gordon Mayfeeley. An Emotion Ex-Party, fouled by five of 18 political parties, just as an H.A.E., also granted an order directing the chief executive officers of the commercial banks, India, alter egos to show cause why they should not be arrested and prosecuted for the economic and financial sabotage of the country by holding, withholding and not paying or dispersing the new 200, 500 and 1,000 Naira banknotes, despite supply of such notes by the Central Bank of Nigeria. On Monday, no fewer than 14 out of 18 registered political parties participating in the 2023 general election under the aegis of forum of chairman of Nigerian political parties and forum of candidates for the 2023 general election threatened to withdraw all participation from the exercise if the federal government and the Central Bank of Nigeria succumbed to pressure as they put it or cancel or suspend the cash withdrawal limit and Naira redesign deadline. Alright, and we're asking what this means for the forthcoming elections because the political parties have gotten involved in this. Here to provide analysis of this, we have human rights lawyer, human rights advocate, Barista Justice Uwebu. Justice, good morning to you. Thank you very much for your time. Good morning. All right. In these times, in these times when, you know, the role of judiciary in elections are concerned and in other aspects of national life. What are your thoughts on this ruling by Rabuja High Court led by Milordi Rambu Justice NHA, which is barring the aforementioned parties from tampering with the Naira redesign policy or the cash withdrawal limit policy. It means they can't extend the deadline and it's even threatened more action against the CEOs of banks. What are your thoughts on this, this court decision? Well, that wasn't consigned. I don't think there's anything or some consigning political parties with the bank policy or the CBN policy as it is. All right, I guess seems to have been interrupted, taken away by a network challenge. Justice Uwebu, can you hear us please? Yes, I can hear you. Yeah, please go on. All right, it happens from time to time. Network is always a challenge in this part of the world, mercy. But, you know, we're looking at, we actually work towards talking about this threat by the political parties, only to hear last night that of course the court had ruled barring the president, barring the independent national electoral commission and all these other parties from tampering with the deadline. And it's, these are interesting times. You know, some people will say all the courts are there for the common man, for the masses. The political divide has put itself into this Naira debate. It's now becoming clear that there is a political lean in affiliation set of political parties or group that wants the deadline to be shifted. And they're saying crime, blue murder over this Naira policy in the scarcity of the Naira and even the fuel scarcity. And you have a certain group of politicians and their followers, the supporters who are saying, yes, Amrithula is doing well, he must not touch his deadline. Some things are playing here, it's getting clearer every day. But we, I'm told we have a guest back, Justice Uwebu, human rights advocate, can you hear me please? Yes, I can hear you. All right, please go on, sir. So what I'm trying to say is that, as far as I'm concerned, it is purely a CBM policy and one way or the other. No, we might have to get back to Justice Uwebu. Mercy, it's, it's, it's, I guess, said that the political divide is being seen in this, but parties threatening not to be part of a 2023 elections. Why do you think, you know, political parties would go as far as that? Because you spent money to prepare for an election. You spend money campaigning, and then you say, we won't participate in the election because Naira deadline is extended. So, so I think that a lot of people have been very excited about the Electoral Act 2022. And the code has been given to President Mohammed Bahari for, you know, the signage and passing of it. People are quite excited. And they feel that, hey, this is the best thing that has happened to our democracy over, over the years. But you know how it is, we live in a complex society, simple to complex, and things are getting very complex. But if you look at the Electoral Act and if you look at some of the sections of it, for instance, let's even look at, you know, section 29 of the Electoral Act 2022. He says that every political partition, not later than 180 days before the data pointed for a general election under this Act, submit to the constitution in prescribed forms, the list of candidates, the proposed party proposes to sponsor the election, who must have a match from valid primaries. That one would say that a candidate may withdraw his or her candidature by notice and writing signed by him and delivered personally, by the candidate to the political party that nominated him for elections. And, you know, political party shall convince such withdrawal to the Commission, not later than 90 days before it. That he won a subsection, one also said the Commission shall at least 150 days before the day of the election publish by displaying or cursing to be displayed are the relevant of office of the Commission on the Commission's website, the statement of full names and address of all candidates signed in nomination. I like to go through 31 again of the Electoral Act. He says the political party shall not be allowed to change or substitute its candidate whose name has been submitted under section 29 of this Act, except in the case of death or withdrawal of a candidate. And I'm just saying that if you look at it, it probably might not speak to the fact that the political party itself because it's not a case of individual withdrawing from the race, but it's a case of the political parties themselves saying we cannot be part of, you know, this race. Now, my question would be, I think there would be... Yeah, we have Justice Ruehwubak. Justice, can you hear us, please? Yes, I can hear you. Okay, okay, please go on. You were making a point because we're asking you for your thoughts on the... Yeah, no. Like I said before, my thought is that although the political parties seem it wise or seem it fit to somehow go to God, but for me, it's purely an administrative issue that the CBN have to wear this because it is the right applause of the CBN to make policies that will govern the financial institutions and financial stability of the country. So I think some of these things, to me, I see them as qualities for me, as far as I'm concerned. So I and Kofi were having this conversation during that break and I'd like to ask you now, if you look at the Electoral Act for 2022, do you think it makes provision for the withdrawal of a political party? We're not talking about the candidates now. I mean, a political party withdrawing from the race. Well, you cannot force anybody or political party to either continue an election or withdraw. It is an individual thing, it's a personal thing. And remember that the moment your political party is formed, it assumes the position of a legal entity. So if somebody says, I don't want to be part of this process again, what are you going to say? So there's no, for me, there's nothing wrong in that. So once a political party on its own has decided that they don't want to be part of a process, they can withdraw, but that does not mean it will stop the process from going. No, I mean, Justice Huwegbo, we're saying that over time we've not had enough laws to govern the electoral process. And here we have the 2022 Electoral Act and a lot of persons have expressed confidence that this will help us. So I'm saying that let's juxtapose, let's compare this with the content of the Electoral Act. It makes provision for candidates who wants to withdraw from the race and will have you individuals now submitting to the party. But there's no provision in the Electoral Act stating where, you know, I mean, I haven't seen it. So except you have saying that a party itself, we're not saying the individual can say we no longer want to become part of this. Because I mean, there are reasons where you can say you don't want to be part of the system. Okay, for candidates, I mean, in case of death or whatever cases, which there's also provision for a fresh election to be conducted. So I'm saying outright withdraw. Does the Electoral Act of 2022 capture that? No, the truth is that it's nowhere captured. But what I'm trying to say that the point I was trying to make that, whether it was captured or not comes in material, because you cannot force a political party to be part of a process. Inasmuch as it is not simply stated in the Electoral Act. But I still believe that political parties and individuals, they have the right to do whatever they want to do. Like I said before, it does not stop the process of the election. So is it that you want to gapage in or you want to gapage out? For me, I don't see any issue on that. Because if you remember, this is not the first time a political party will want to withdraw from an election. It's an exercise. And if you don't want to be part of the exercise, so be it, as long as I'm concerned. No, but if you say that there's nothing wrong, just like Kofi had mentioned. I mean, the Empire, who saddled with the responsibility of conducting an election, have gone out to print. I mean, funds, budget has been released. People, I mean, the budget has been released based on the number of parties that will be participating. And so materials would have been printed. Are we still saying now, morally, it doesn't make any sense. It doesn't matter. Can we say that a political party can wake up a few weeks to the election to say they don't want to be part of it? And that's not the problem. After, you know, the government has expended and budgeted for it. If that is where this issue of amendments will come up. You see, remember, professor, he said that the law is to harmonize with the society. So as things go on every day and things happening, you begin to discover some lacunas and some loopholes. For me, I will also suggest that in an issue like this, if the electorate as it is now will not be the best, and it's also subject to amendments. Maybe after this election, we'll look at it also again holistically. I agree with you that if a political party, you know, withdraws from an election, almost at the verge where election is to be held, maybe one week or two weeks before the election, and I think has replied that they have spending money and other. It is our money. It is in Nigeria money and other. A political party just have to say is withdrawing. I would say that that section of the amendment or you should be sharing in the electorate that any party that withdraws within a particular frame of time should be meant to pay a certain amount to INEC or to the federal government. All right. Are you, you know, saying that the judiciary should have, you know, declined any judgment or ruling on this matter to say, OK, these bodies mentioned it better either the commercial banks or the central bank are satisfactorily empowered to take decisions for the benefit of the economy. And therefore, they would just say, you know, recourse, recuse themselves from making such any pronouncement regarding it. Some people have talked about something like this when it comes to the issue of political parties and their internal arrangements. They leave the political parties to decide how they want to run. Don't make decisions for them. Do you think that the court should have recused, you know, should have declined any ruling on such a development? I mean, these are financial issues. Maybe next time we can hear that the court to say the central bank should lower the interest rates. I'm telling you, it's not, it wouldn't be a strange one. But the way things are going, what are your thoughts on this? No, the truth is that, of course, you know that the judiciary is always there to welcome issues, to settle issues and to advocate on issues. The issue that is taking to court, no matter how foolish people might think it is, they come to them, simply advocate on it, and take a position. And that is why we have worked for case made laws. Because any judgment given by a court of conduct in the judiciary becomes law, or if that judgment is set aside. So as far as I'm concerned, they have met the wise man, who or his own, taking that decision as a judgment, of course. So if anybody or any party or any group of people are not satisfied with the sound of the judgment, they can step forward to appeal. As far as I'm concerned, that is the decision of the court as it is now. And they remember that every individual, once you are in Nigeria, or every party and association and association, what association is, it becomes a legal personality. Or sorry, legal personality, so you can sue and be sued. So that is the way I'm looking at it. I'm from that angle, I'm looking at that. And the court as given is by the, for one reason or another. So I think the best thing anyone can do who feels like this is to go to the court of appeal to challenge it. So just to be sure, if someone goes to the court tomorrow and says, oh, court, please, restrain the CBN from lowering the interest rate. To order them to do what the interest rate to be 7%. You still say the same thing that the court in the Swiss Dome, because there are some people that want the interest rate to either be high or low, based on interest. So the court will look at this side by side and look at it holistically to decide which one would be for the benefit of the masses. But remember that most judgments are given for, you know, stability in the society. So there are some reasons why a judgment can be given. Alright, Justice, I'd like us to look at, you know, this part of the consensus of these political parties. Let's say that, I mean, if this policy is implemented to the latter, it would ensure the credibility of the 2023 elections. As a matter of fact, to say that these policies without shifting the deadline of 10th February, President Mohammed Buhari would have actually taken a huge step closer to fulfilling his promise to the world that 2023 general elections will be credible, free and fair. So I'd like to ask you, do you think that this policy in any way will aid free, fair and credible elections? Well, let me tell you the truth and let me say this as it is. If the, why these political parties want to cause is because they may have envisioned that one or two other political parties want to rush to cause to compel the CBN to extend the deadline. That is why you see this thing coming. For me personally, I love what is happening so far. Because you see, this issue, or what we're going through now, will help us in Nigeria to less the level of monetizing policies in Nigeria. One of the major problem we have in Nigeria today is because we have monetized policies. It is all about money. It is all about the highest bidder. And if there's no money to share anywhere, people will come out and vote their conscience and vote the right people. Let me tell you, you don't know the power of money. Especially in a society where longer is almost killing everybody. And these politicians, they know what they are doing. They will hold all this money until when election is coming, they will go and bring it out. And these are money that belongs to the whole masses, me and you. Now let me ask you a question and let me say this for all Nigerians to know. All most of these people that are contesting elections today, they make their money from the government. Most of them, they make their money from the government. It's just very few of them. It's just very few of them. Check their history, check their citizens. They make their money from the government. What it means is that it is our money that they have heard and they want to bring it out and give to us. You can imagine where somebody will come out and say that he is rich at the stage. Justice, before we go, you've talked a very important point. I love the way you've gone. Somebody will come out and be proud. Justice, I love the way you've gone. Leonard, I love the way you've gone. You've talked about the weaponization of money in elections in Nigeria. You've talked about the utilization of poverty as a tool to win elections. You've said that if the CBN extends its deadline, there is a higher propensity for politicians and their proxies to buy votes. You've talked about boat buying. You've talked about poverty, starvation and all that, and people will be... But we have some wiki, the governor of Riverside said something, which is quite interesting to this conversation. Wiki said that this policy does not affect him as a person. He said it does not affect politicians. They have already sorted themselves out. That he already has his money. He didn't as well use the money for, by the way. But he says he already has his money. I don't know who was implicating himself. He says they have already gotten their money. This election they've prepared already. So what the central bank is doing is not going to affect them. Now, if people, we live in a country where people cannot very quickly, cannot get money. Naira, new Naira. And the politicians who wiki has already have prepared pop up at these elections with new Naira. Wouldn't they be tempted to take it and vote for these politicians who are buying their votes? The truth here is that wiki is not saying the truth. It's not saying the truth. It's not saying the usual fact. You see, these are who I have to talk to people and to see people as far as I'm concerned. You know, you see, the only thing I feel is that the banks or CBN would have made it in a way that money would be available for people, for the masses, to do their petty trading and go about their business on any basis. Like this issue of you may not be able to withdraw deposit more than 100,000 in a day, then more than 500,000 in a week, that would go to the position. Fine, for me, what I find is good. I like it so much. But let it be available for the people, for the masses. It would be very, very difficult for the politicians, because the politicians, they go with billions of Naira. And so, if you have the old Naira vote in billions, when you take it to the bank, the bank will not accept it from you because ESC will come after you where you get the money from. Where have you been keeping the money? What are you going to do? Is that affecting the position? All right. Justice Huwibu, human rights advocate joining us via Zoom from Abuja. Thank you very much for your time. Always a thrill having you, and we look forward to having you again. All right. We still have on-programmes discussions ahead. Mercy? Yeah, definitely. When we take a break, we'll be looking at a very sensitive issue. I mean, it has plagued our society and it's the issue of circumcision. That's how we know it. Take a break. We'll be right back. Stay with us.