 Coach and consultant so a little about me Let me see where to begin I Worked at Microsoft for 15 years, so I worked at Microsoft for a long time and the last product I shipped in was You ready for this? Windows Vista Yeah, it was pretty bad Yeah, I did leave then I went to a work for a guy named Steve McConnell and What I started to do for Steve was travel the world and help people with their agile transformations So that's all I do. I do agile coaching agile consulting agile training and I'm actually headquartered out of Sydney, Australia now, so Part of what I like to do is go to conferences and meet people just like you Go to cool talks and learn and I like to give back by giving talks myself for so for me This is a labor of love and I hope you love this presentation, too So that's me the session we're going to do today is the end is nigh signs of transformation apocalypse I've seen a lot of transformations I've helped in a lot of transformations some have succeeded and some have failed But I've seen a lot of things go badly a lot of things go badly and in fact The signs you're going to see today are sticky note signs Which is appropriate for a natural conference. So let's get started. Let's talk about the end of the world Here are the warning signs Every agile coach needs to look out for as they go through an agile transformation The first one the iron triangle This is the whole reason agile was invented to get out of the iron triangle, right? fixed scope fixed resources fixed time and you're asked to come into a client To do an agile transformation, right? And what's the first thing they do they fix your scope They fix your time All right, and they fix your budget and then they write a contract, right? The agile transformation must be complete by so-and-so dates and then they give you all these metrics, right? We need 20% more efficiency. We need 30% less employees our satisfaction Ironically needs to be higher, right? This is the classic Transformation that's stuck in the iron triangle. That's your first warning sign if you go into a client and it's all about a contract an SOW about an agile transformation with everything fixed right off the bat, you know That the end is nigh the agency provider You've come into an organization and They're looking to transform and what they're probably gonna mention is something called a digital transformation, right? So they've gone out and they've hired the coolest digital agency in town and they all have mustaches like this Curly mustaches and beards and they look like hipsters because they're hipsters Right all they do is program You know mobile apps all day and they do responsive websites and they say they do digital transformations But they don't really know much about agile and they've been contracted to come into a company and Do a transformation, but they're not agile specialists. They're specialists in providing digital products That's the next sign that the end is nigh if you're working with a digital agency and not somebody who specializes in agile transformations Now conversely There's the corporate consultancy These are ironically at the two ends of the spectrum right the cool consultancy and the corporate consultancy They both have deliverables of usually slide decks the corporate consultancy It's the perfect slide deck the more slides the better 100 words a slide, but the agency slide deck It looks cool, but they both have the same kind of end result rather than Being agile and leading a transformation the output is what's considered to be most important So the corporate consultancy is outputting slide decks like crazy slide decks slide decks slide decks the more words the better Like they're getting paid by the word That's the next big indicator that Transformation apocalypse is coming when you're working with a large consultancy and all they care about is producing documents cool frameworks You walk into a situation You're talking to the client They're talking about a natural transformation and they start talking about cool frameworks And we all know what those cool frameworks are don't we I'll give you some key words to help you with this one There's your keywords Right how many times have you heard this over the past five years if I hear the word tribe or guild or squad one more time, right? So what's going on here? It means the company has kind of fixated on like a cool thing It sounds awesome. It sounds different, but it's been around for ages It's gotten to the point where I hear Tribe squads and guilds and it's just it's just trite. It doesn't have any more meaning anymore, right? I was just in a talk over there and they were talking about valves cabals, right? Why did valve come up with the word cabal? It's because all the other cool words were taken Right, that's a key indicator that you're headed towards transformation apocalypse because they're starting to use cool terms Because they think it makes them better somehow These are the other key words you should be looking out for Spotify Google When your transformation says we should be like someone else is essentially what it comes down to it Spotify and Google are the classic examples We're gonna use the Spotify model. We're gonna be Spotify Well, you're not actually Spotify because that's the name of the company, right? The other one I hear is Google like we're gonna do Google design sprints and stuff like that There's other things out there like this It's kind of like the company or the transformation team has said This company over here. That's really awesome has done all the hard work Now we can just do what they did and it's gonna be super easy and we'll be cool like them too That's essentially what they're saying. They're saying they've done all the hard work Now we can do all do everything they've done and we'll be just like them Rather than thinking about How they could do it themselves How they could make their own company way of doing they're just stealing it from someone else the enterprise frameworks remember the The cool digital agency consultancy and the enterprise agency. Well, there's two ends of the spectrum, right? If you have Cool frameworks, then you must have enterprise frameworks as well So what are some of the enterprise framework keywords that you need to look out for as a coach as a transformation agent? Yeah, as soon as I hear these words. I know something could be up train RTE PI safe It's very similar to the To the cool frameworks with the tribe squad guild they Client is interested in those because they sound cool. They are interested in these because they sound enterprise Who RTE? That's an acronym. It's got three letters in it. It's got to be good PI they should have kept it PSI it used to be called PSI I think they should have kept it PSI because it has three letters and acronyms are better with three letters Although safe has four. So maybe that's maybe that's the best acronym up there But these are keywords that indicate once again that the organization has said Here's something we can just do Right off the shelf like it's software. Oh We'll just go to the enterprise framework store And we'll pull the safe box off the shelf and we'll install safe in the organization and then we'll configure it, right? they're thinking like like a natural transformation with all the culture and Mindset changes involved can be configured like software. That's how they see it, right? They look at the safe diagram It's got a place for everyone. It's got multiple levels. Oh It's so cool, right? It just puts everything out there and tells you everything to do That's the problem. It tells you everything to do It's totally short circuits the learning process of going through an actual transformation So if you're in a situation where you see these keywords You might be in trouble the end could be nigh If you've ever been involved in a transformation where you see people getting laid off or made redundant That's a big clue that something could be going on. I once worked at a client where Their business justification for the transformation was we need to lay off 20% of the staff They didn't care who they laid off Well, I guess they did they probably wanted to lay off the people who earn more But that's all they really cared about in the agile transformation. That was their business goal. We want to save money By firing 20% of our people. That's why we're doing an agile transformation That's not the point of an agile transformation, right? the point of an agile transformation is taking an organization through a journey and then letting people figure out how they fit in The journey whether or not they belong there where they belong if they should go elsewhere You let the people in the organization figure that out the people will figure it out but if it's just a cost-saving measure Then That's not going to end well for your transformation Those transformations fail and then they do another one after that. There's no psychological safety secrecy if Your transformation is a secret transformation. That's a bad bad bad sign You've got the transformation team room. It's in the back of the office I've had clients like actually put stuff over the windows so the employees can't see into the room Because there's secret transformation going on in there Right, there's secret can band boards and secret designs and secret decks and all the transformation people on the Transformation team come into work every day and they go into their secret transformation room And they work in there all day probably on slide decks right, ooh the secret transformation slide deck and People regular people the employees are not allowed into the room because it's secret and You ask why do we have to keep it a secret and they say stuff like well Our people just aren't ready for it Right. Let's say they're not ready for it. They can't handle the truth right now We'll say something like that right like it's like it's their fault. They can't handle the truth, right? Transparency is non-existent Coach isolation if you're the only agile coach in an organization and on a transformation team and you're surrounded by project managers You're probably in trouble Right, you're the only agile coach and you're surrounded by project managers or program managers Right, how are you supposed to have an agile transformation with one agile person in the room? That's really really tough You as the agile coach are gonna feel isolated in fact they are isolating you Because you're dangerous you say crazy things Like we should let the people decide how to do it. They don't like that. That's that's crazy They want to figure out the transformation for the people Right, so they get a bunch of project managers a bunch of program managers They put them in the secret Transformation room and then they design the transformation and slide decks. Ooh the organization should look like this That person should do that We'll take all the BAs and convert them to product owners We'll take all the project managers and convert them the scrum masters and you're the lone agile coach in the room saying crazy things Like we should let the guys the teams figure this out and they look at you like you're crazy And after a while you as the agile coach You start to go crazy Because you're the only one and you're surrounded by these waterfall people a scrum transformation team. Oh Boy, how many transformation teams have I been on where they try to run at scrum, right? The theory is if you have a transformation team that runs as scrum then you're Modeling that scrummy agile behavior to the rest of the organization. That means you have sprint planning You have daily stand-ups. You have retrospectives. You had reviews. You have refining sessions You've got a can-band board on the back of the room for your transformation team And you have tickets and you're moving them across just like a real scrum team Except it is the worst scrum team ever Right because nobody shows up to any of the scrum meetings Because the scrum transformation team is like 5% of their real job. They come to like one stand-up every two weeks They don't come to the retrospectives. They don't do any of the work And your scrum boards Sitting in the back of the secret transformation room and no one's looking at it and the tickets don't move If you have a scrum transformation team Then that's a definite sign because scrum transformation teams are the worst scrum teams and a waterfall agile transformation You mentioned this earlier Scott, right? Let's plan out the perfect transformation. I Had a client where I spent nine months on the ground planning the perfect transformation Never happened The first three months all I did was talk to people assess them You know, that's like the requirements gathering the next three months We sat in the secret transformation room and we did the design which is the slide decks, right? I had the client tell me Alex you're doing a great job But you need to bring up your slide output, right? And we need more words per slide. So there was like a slide velocity Right That's what it was thought. That's all they cared about that was the output and I would say why don't we just do something and they they would say stuff like no No, the people aren't ready. We got to have everything perfect before we actually do it nine months later I go to the client and I said I could have spun up a scrum team once a week for nine months and He would I have 30 operational scrum teams by now? Who would be constantly learning and changing and adapting? The transformation We'd already be into the next level the transformation But they hadn't even started because it was a waterfall transformation. They had to get everything perfect Just do it just do it and if you have the p.m. On the transformation team, you know, you're in trouble, right? Yeah Yeah, yeah, I was at a client recently and they had a traditional project manager on the team on the transformation team Because it was a fixed bid project. It was a waterfall Agile transformation, which just boggles the mind. It's crazy Why would you run an agile transformation with waterfall and have a project manager on it? And once you get a project manager on an agile transformation team certain things are going to happen That you're all familiar with that we all lived through in the old days before we became agile The very word transformation itself is kind of a warning sign Is it a transformation? Maybe it's an installation configuration Adoption journey I'm not sure but the whole word transformation kind of has some baggage associated with it How many of you have gone through an agile Transformation just show your hands how many have been in an agile transformation That's a good percentage of the room. Yeah, I Wonder what that really means agile transformation. I think if you're a coach you should be thinking about what? Transformation actually means to the to the business sponsors to the business. What does that word really mean and boy Gantt charts? If you're on an agile transformation team and you're producing Gantt charts, it's not looking good for you Right here on the transformation team in your secret room and the project manager of the transformation team comes to you and says We need a Gantt chart And you're the agile coach, and you're like there's a backlog right there There's a backlog right there. No, no, no Gantt chart Gotta have a Gantt chart for our agile transformation Otherwise, how do we know when we're transformed? Right, how do we know we got it we got to be transformed by this date the Gantt charts the only way to do it Yeah, if you start producing Gantt charts in your agile transformation Definitely, you could be in big trouble the Ed might be nigh. Yeah, and reports. Oh, yeah Gantt charts is just the start of your agile transformation Because next thing you know you're producing stoplight reports Right Huh, here's the status of our agile transformation once a week Just like 1997 Here's what we're doing. Here's what we've done It's red amber green All right, once you start getting into the mode of producing reports and Gantt charts It's the same thing just like an individual scrum team an individual Kanban team the same applies all those Principles apply to a transformation team and if you start doing it on a transformation team Then that kind of behavior is embedded in the organization It's you're in serious trouble now You bring up all these risks These impediments these warnings these behaviors Because this is what agile coaches do right we're just fancy scrum masters and what do scrum masters do? They bring up impediments and then they try to solve them right they try to crush them. They try to overcome impediments So it's your job as a person on the transformation team It's your job as a scrum master in a in a transformation It's your job as an agile coach in a transformation team or in a big transformation at an enterprise or a startup To break these things up so that you can solve them, right? all these anti patterns I've shown you here today if You've ever been involved in a transformation You've probably seen some of these and if you've done a lot of transformations You've probably seen consistent patterns and all the things. I've just mentioned and You bring it up to your executives What what happens when you bring these things up? To the people above you in the organization where the transformation is happening What do you think happens to you the agile coach? Let's see. I'll show you what happens That's you. Yeah Yeah Get prepared to die Right because they don't want to hear that They don't want to hear that stuff They are just used to doing the way that they're doing things already And if you bring up these warnings these these things these anti patterns if they're not truly on board If they're not truly interested in transforming then you're gonna die You'll either quit Or we'll fire you and this is why agile coaches are always prepared with an up-to-date LinkedIn profile Because you're doing crazy things right Ironically some of the clients I go to The business sponsor, you know, they hire me in they bring me in and they're so happy to have me come And they take me out to dinner and oh, they're so excited Oh, we love you Alex You're gonna change our world and then the next day and then the next week and the next month Who's the person that fights me the most and is the hardest person to change? It's the person who hired me They want the change, but they don't want to change right. I want to change. No, I don't want to change and You could end up dead You could end up dead But that's our job as agile coaches You should always be prepared to be killed because you're pushing the organization past boundaries That they didn't know that they had that they needed to overcome. It's very risky for you as the agile coach Right and if you're not pushing them that hard and by push I don't mean like telling them what to do, but by like building space and Challenging them in constructive healthy honest ways, then you're not doing your job. So what do you do? What do you do as an agile coach as a transformation agent as a person on a transformation team when you're working in a natural transformation? What do you do when you see all of these anti-patterns all these signs that Disasters about to come. What do you do? I don't have the answers You'll have to figure out the answers Just like your Transformation just like your client should be figuring out the answers themselves how to do a transformation You need to do the same thing and it's going to be different every single time you can't just do a transformation by Saying we're doing Spotify. You can't do it just by saying we're doing Google You can't do it just by saying we're doing safe or whatever it is You have to figure out what works for your context Not only for the transformation, but for you as a coach Which means you're gonna have to overcome all these challenges. I'm bringing up and more There are more challenges beyond these these are just the ones I brought up for today. There are many many many more so the deck is Available right here the link to the deck is in the deck. Oh wait. I'm pointing the wrong way. There you go Now the reason I made the deck this way is because I don't want it to look like an agile transformation deck Right. I want it to look like a mindset and cultural deck So there's the deck for you. You can go check it out. Those are some very consistent anti-patterns and Thank you very much. I appreciate your time Now I've left plenty of time for questions What questions do you guys have? Yeah, sir Actually going through agile transformation one of the key question that I keep getting from a senior leadership team is in terms of There is a reason for why we are transforming, right? How do we see the results of the transformation? The whole intent of transformation is to drive certain results, right? Because the company is not making right revenue because the company needs to move towards new areas. Whatever those results are What is what is the how do I define the end result of a transformation? Yeah, okay So I'll let you in on a secret. You're ready for this secret Okay, here it is You should use agile in your agile transformation That's the secret You know how you have like a sprint zero for a scrum team and you get together you build a team and you build together a backlog That's all you do for a transformation team You build a transformation team and you do a kickoff and you build a transformation backlog And it's as easy as that and that's one of the things in the transformation backlog It's usually like up near the top. That's one of the first things you do is you figure out what the business purpose is and Then you attack that as a as a backlog item for your transformation It might be I've seen business like goals that Weren't numbers at all like I've done transformations at company companies where they just said we want our employees to be happier There was no numbers, but I've been in other places where they said stuff like we want our efficiency to be to be 20% more, right? So then in that case what we did is we just baseline what our efficiency was then then and then we Measured it later, you know, basically we assessed it and then assessed it after the transformation I guess what I'm trying to say is figure out what your business goals are and then figure out how to measure them If you even need to based on what they are and it's just an item in your transformation backlog so the follow-up question is that once you baseline business goal and Then you know the target in terms of what we want to accomplish. That's right Then the need of the report starts coming in yeah Yeah, see how this is because it is what I was able to relate to exactly what you were saying right and how this actually Moves you into that area of Getting into non agile mode. Yeah, how do we tackle that kind of a situation? Definitely just like any other scrum team You want to get your stakeholders engaged? so You see all the classic any pattern where stakeholders want to know how a scrum team is doing so they get sent reports Probably because they're not coming to the demo and they're not getting engaged It's the same with your executive leadership if they're truly engaged at that personal level with the transformation team Then they don't really need reports. They should be getting it live in real time all the time Thank you. Oh Other questions So first of all, thank you for the wonderful presentation. My pleasure really exciting So one of the first things that we have discussed is the iron triangle, right? Where can you get a project? You'll have a scope defined. Yeah, you will have timelines defined Yeah, you will have resources and all getting sorted, right? Of course Could you please share in you know a scenario in which we you have dealt with it or you know probably an example? Yeah, you have helped the organization to come out of the iron triangle Yeah, yeah, so one of the classic ways to do it is to actually do separate contracts so In the old days when I was doing SOW stuff for Creative Agency rather than doing an SOW for the entire project or a transformation project What you would do is contractually split it up into chunks So you would essentially buy like velocity and say at the end of this SOW period Which might only be four weeks you'll get these certain things then we rewrite a new SOW so essentially what you're doing is you're iterating on SOWs rather than doing one giant fixed bid project you're doing small little incremental iterative SOWs that basically are All around buying velocity and not fixed outcomes Definitely, it's a shared partnership I've found personally that setting up that kind of a arrangement with clients that you don't have a trusting relationship Can be quite hard but doing that with clients you have a trusting relationship with is a lot easier to accomplish So if you do have clients where you have that relationship, you'll probably have better results Alex, I'm curious to know when the person who hired you didn't want to change What did you do number one and number two if you can tell us some scenarios where you have Succeeded in changing the mindset of leaders as well as you have failed miserably failed in changing the mindset of leaders Yeah, that's a great question Okay, so the question is have How have I dealt with clients who've hired me but don't really want me Right I've actually had clients I Could tell you a story later over beer. It was a horrible horrible client I showed up on the first day and nobody showed up to my workshop And I sat in the workshop for two hours by myself. Well, nobody showed up That was a terrible climb. I can tell you what I did With that client. I fired them. I Basically said on the phone. I'm never coming back here Click right because I felt like deceived right a very common practice for people to Practice is like an agile contract like an agile transformation contract There are lots of people out in the agile community who actually get a client to sign a Contract before they agree to come in and do a transformation And it's not like an SOW like work kind of contract. It's more like a social contract If I come and agree to work with you then you have to promise to be nice and do what I say and stuff like that So that's a very common practice. I would own I usually only employ that when I feel like I'm kind of like Skeptical of the person right and you want to go through some kind of formal You know setting of expectations Changing hearts and minds is really a long-term hard practice My advice to you and I have been successful at in places in certain places not My advice to you is to be authentically you Be cautiously optimistic Lead the way with gentle honest Reflection and advice and mentoring and coaching and teaching Every transformation I've seen where the transformation was forced on people and forced on the organization Because they were told what to do by some agile consultant has not ended well so you have to be like a Like a loving guiding person and not a telling person and over time it will succeed in work Yeah microphone my question is It's the transformation objective itself when it comes from the top down. Yeah. Yeah I've understood that the most specific it becomes The difficult it it leaves the whole of the organization to navigate around Yeah, and the more sort of vague it becomes It has more space to navigate but at the same time is there is some sort of a sweet spot where in The organization does know what it wants but has given a leverage For the teams to do that's a great question And in fact, I actually implied it but didn't state it explicitly in my presentation when I talked about the agency versus the Large consultancy and when I talked about the cool frameworks and the enterprise frameworks what I was really implying was that there's a range and that somewhere in between is the sweet spot that you have to find that you're Talking about so My assertion is that every single agile transformation is unique and needs to be considered in the context of which it is occurring And then you need to adjust it and adapt and learn through that agile transformation in that actual context Which is Basically the definition of agile right so always go back to agile a transformation team and a transformation is nothing more or nothing less Than an agile project probably can ban Right, and you're gonna inspect and adapt you're just gonna do stuff and then see what happens And that's the quickest and easiest way to do a transformation Did I answer your question all right more questions Any more questions Oh, oh we got a you mind running the mic over so People generally are rather most of the people are of following mentality Work is just work and they don't want to think too much Yeah, but here we are trying to encourage everybody to think yes for themselves correct, right How practical do you think it is because there are some people who are real leaders who do want to put their thoughts into it Yeah, but most of the people they are just like just tell me what to do and I'll do it. Yeah, generally there are leaders Kind of paving the way in the organization for a transformation Very common practice is to go in to a transformation and assess the people and figure out the natural leaders and champions for the gradual transformation and essentially you turn them into lightning rods or focal points for Helping transform the org they sometimes end up on the transformation team itself, right? You identify the champions or paladins or whatever you want to call them and they go on the transformation team There are people who will just follow And that's perfectly fine, right? It's like having introverts on a team You can't change the nature of an introvert just like you can't change the nature of someone who wants to follow But focus on your strengths in your or in your organization and amplify them Identify those key people who are interested in taking the org to the next agile level and then invest in them and Enable them to be the best they can be and to lead help lead the others the others will follow, right? If only because They're followers, but if you give them somebody to follow then they will follow What we're essentially saying is that the change leaders the leaders are change agents need to be the thinkers Yes, and the rest will follow their inspirational visionary leaders You as the agile coach should go into the organization be a visionary leader Model that behavior and then the other other visionary leaders You you figure out who those people are and you build a you build a support group now when I talked about coach isolation That's when you're in by yourself in the in the transformation room, and there's nobody willing to help you Nobody cares there might be nobody in the organization who wants to be a champion I've even gone to a client where I identified the champions brought them into the transformation team, and then the client behind my back Told all those people no no no you can't be agile champions You're not good enough And I was like what these are your best people, right? So and then they went away, and then I said do you want to be agile champions anymore, and they said hell No, we don't want to be agile champions, right? Because they went behind the backs and said they couldn't be so you need to have that strong Sponsorship that strong leadership that brings you in essentially my My position is that as an agile coach if you're going and doing a transformation If you don't have strong executive leadership from a business sponsor, then you are in big trouble It will fail without that Yeah other questions support the as a Transformation lead I had just started the transformation But after some time I lose the momentum and the people lose the interest of that because it's not They are not able to visualize the result or if benefits of this process right the how I can maintain those momentum Yeah, so to maintain the momentum is to come right out of the gate as fast as you can So rather than then doing a slow Long slow transformation Do it as quickly as possible and just hit it right out of the gate as quickly as possible So that they can start to see change and benefits Immediately now if you're in a situation where it's been nine months and nothing much has happened You might have to reboot your entire transformation and that's what a lot of companies go through Large enterprises you hear about that go through multiple transformations All they're doing is just long sequences of transformations nine months nine months nine months nine months and they do it again and again and again because they're slow if They just get it as quickly as possible Messy and quick one time. They might be able to kick start their entire culture back into a mode of learning I've actually Talked to other coaches And been involved in trans transformations myself where they're like on their seventh transformation And they're like running out of acronyms. I'll give you an example Wow is really hot and There's a company in Australia right now. That's like on their seventh version of Wow, so they're running out of Wow's They were and wow and then e-wow and then x-wow and now they're like What Wow should we use now right because they have like run out of Wow's next next Wow Wow plus plus I don't know right. It's just because that company just can't get out of that mode of long big transformations Yeah, so kick it off hard and fast like a real scrum team Yeah, other questions Yeah, oh, there's my key. It's a continuation of what he was asking. Yeah, if you are Sorry, if you are hired in the middle of a transformation journey Yeah, it is almost like going on in a crisis mode and yeah, it's a deep red and there is no way It will succeed kind of scenario. Yeah, and the leadership team Doesn't want to start all over Again, yeah, okay in that scenario. What is your advice? Where do you start? That's a tough question Trying to think of situations where I've encountered that myself personally I Have come into organizations where they've gone through a transformation Transformation is kind of a slippery word because it there's like no end right so When when is it when you're really coming into a transformation or not? I don't know but I have come into organizations that are along their journey their transformation and it's just a continuation You're talking about a situation where I probably wouldn't Join the team in the first place Right where I'd say I'd probably talk to people and say who what's going on here and if I feel like they're Not not in it heart and soul then I won't join in essentially I mean, I love a good fight and I love Helping hard Situations get better, but there's some situations that are just you're not gonna win you're just not and You know, you're gonna end up one night at home in bed crying Eating ice cream or whatever You don't want to be there. Yeah Other questions over here You have a mic Hi, I'm Ashish my question is An extension to the question was a gentleman asked sure at what point do you see the Transformation is safe enough that the team would not wish to go back. How do you conclude that it's enough? There were there will always be some pros guys who would be in favor Yeah, most of them would be sitting on the fence. Yeah, some would be dead against yeah Yeah, and you see the benefits there are challenges. You are in a transformation phase Yeah, and there will be people who would always like to go back. Sure. What is the point where you say this is where I have reached There's no way they will go back again. Yeah That's a great question because I have an actual answer for that There is an eternal question all agilists talk about late at night at the bar when they're drinking beer and that question is I wonder Could a scrum team be so mature that they don't need a scrum master, right? We've all heard that question and in theory in a perfect scrummy world where everything is scrummy goodness You could in theory have a team that was so good. It didn't need a scrum master Have you ever seen that? Yeah, I haven't either so my experience is that when you come into an organization when you come into a team and they say We don't need any coaches anymore. We don't need any scrum masters anymore. We're so good We're like done We're next level. We're like wow plus eight right That's a key indicator right then and there that they are not ready Right if they say it if they say it it means they're not So the converse is true. It's the organizations and the teams that are constantly Asking themselves, how can we get better and maybe we do need help I think those are the ones that are actually more mature than the ones who say we don't need help That's my position Thank you. Yeah more questions. Oh, yeah Yeah, we got one over here, but we'll get you next Actually, I keep hearing that most of the transitions are failures Approximately, I hear the numbers from 30 percentage to even 75% But I've never heard that people who really I don't know what exactly is meant by the failure part because we all talk about continuous improvement and Everything else. Yeah, but then I don't know is it really that they don't go back to they want to go back to the traditional way of Waterfall. What is that failure here? I really don't understand. What is it here? How much time we have One minute. Oh We're over one minute come find me out there. I'll tell you out there We're over one minute. I'll come find you later, too. But thank you for all the questions I love the questioning. That was really great. I'll see you guys out there and we'll have a beer later. All right. Bye