 I want to start this conversation with, well, is it a statement, is it a vision, or just a question, just to rattle the box a bit. I've been looking at the Drupal stats, you know, you can find them on Drupal.org, and for the last couple of years we've been stuck at around 2% market share. Oh, that's not growing. Let's imagine, in 10 years time, nobody's using Drupal anymore. Nobody, you know, that will hurt, you know, most of you, because we all rely on Drupal. What can we do different now, or in the near future, to make sure Drupal will prosper, and even grow again? Any ideas? So, it's a difficult question to start with, but you have any ideas what we can do? I can kick a ball if you want. Can you hear me, yes? Can you hear me? Yeah, I think okay. I don't have the answer, of course, I have no idea. But what can I say, I don't think we are doing anything bad, and the only way I can answer is watching the community of the Drupal ecosystem 10 years ago. And 10 years ago, they called, it wasn't clean, let's say it wasn't reliable enough, like it is now, it was a functional approach of the procedural approach, and the community wasn't that organized as it is now. There were no initiatives, like there are now, there were no governance, like there is now. There were no important initiatives, like the one I think is driven by Paul, which is about promoting Drupal, a common pitch that we can share, and there wasn't a problem manager, which I believe is WebChic. So, 10 years ago, if we look at each other 10 years ago, we had done a lot, and even though I don't have the answer, I'm confident we can do better and be prepared for the next ones. Do you have any ideas what we can do better currently? I think we should, I have to answer this from a developer perspective, and in the last two years we've done some things that were wrong, but they were required, like when we did a big step from 7 to 8, we have to move to a more objective rental approach, we have to provide a whole code, so there is something that has destroyed us, and a lot of talents they left just because they had the button out, which is different from what we explained, but they have to let because they were too stressed, and I think what they have to do is make sure that we did that step, and now we are more in a, let's say, a bright path, and we have to get those talents back. So probably the first step is recollecting those talents back and giving a more bright path, so it's getting people. Then I think that if we find a way to be more local, I think the team today is the global work we can do, and I think the group of globalists is doing very well, we have really organized, we have remote friends, so globally we are okay. I think locally we are kind of failing most of the times because we have these big events, but there are situations where there is nothing, there are cities and towns where there are no communities. I mentioned this for the sprint, but I thought we had a lot of groups, there was no, there was no contingency, there was no reliable place where people can go and do meet-ups and do something regularly. So I think globally we are doing well, locally less. So you would say to get organized, better organized locally. Yeah, definitely. All right. I think we have to understand that the demographics have changed a lot as well. Like 10 years ago, everyone was very young. I think if you were starting development now, you probably wouldn't choose Drupal as something to get started with. You could come out of a JavaScript bootcamp, or all those kinds of things people are doing. So I think we need to make sure we've made that mental shift to understand that people are older and generally people doing Drupal, it's their job. They're not really turning up to volunteer stuff as much. And that's okay. You should be all right with that. Well, is it okay? Because I've been in the Drupal community for about 13 years now. And we started all young and fresh. But I see a lot of friends here who turn grey. I'm turning grey as well. So yeah, the community is getting older and the younger developers are more attracted towards JavaScript. Is there something we can do to attract young people who have that energy so we can grow the community and also grow contributions again? Is there something we can do? Do you have ideas about that? Me? Of course. I mean, if we're using the technologies that people want to use, I think that's a good step. I think if we're more clear about what it is that we actually provide as software, I think that would help. We don't have the best rendering engine and stuff like that, but we can manage content really well. And a lot of clients that I work with, they're like, oh, one day we'll replace Drupal. And I kind of laughed myself because I'm like, with what? Because there's just not that much out there as much as Drupal in terms of like managing content that has workflows and translations and all those, they're hard problems. That's not to say that something won't come along in the future, so we should definitely watch out for that. But I think our knowledge is in managing that content and working on content models and seeing projects from start to finish is not necessarily like we're really focused on this technology stack. So I think we need to kind of broaden ourselves in that terms and recognize that our community strength is in those particular types of problems that we can solve. I think you can look at it from the point of view of a developer and what language or what technology they want to use and that we'll always have a bearing on, that'll be their passion, that'll be their chosen technology. And I think in the world of integration, it's the case of, do we build our microservices in Node.js or do we use an integration platform and stuff like that? But then if you take a bit of a step back and you think, well, what are the other factors that we need to consider when people make a decision over and above the code that they write or the language that they use? From a business perspective, what business value do people get from different options but then from a social and a personal perspective? We were talking about this over lunch. How much of a social enterprise is there from a technology? How much and Drupal is amazing at this. How much of a sense of community do you get? Fans that you make. I think there's a lot that we can do to compel people to want to be involved in something over and above the technology that we provide. Yeah, so you say it's a unique identifier, the community is unique identifier for Drupal as a community and we should communicate that in a broader sense. And that's one of the strength of Drupal. Is that what you're saying? It's one thing that needs to continue to be a massive strength for Drupal. And especially when it's any open source technology or technology that has an open source background, it's a belief system, right? You believe in it, you're passionate about it. It's not just something that you've been told to do for your job if you come from that way of thinking. And that in part is because of that sense of community and as soon as that starts to be lost, you'll lose that attraction for a lot of people who want to use it. Yeah. So you're also saying that we need to attract new people to get into the community and that's one of the things I said in English compelling reasons to join. You have a group of friends, you have a group of people you can work with, laugh with and have a beer with. And give back to the planet and the society. So how can we organise this locally? I'm a board member of the DA and there's a limited team that we have and we're doing a lot with the limited team we have but how can we do this and organise this locally? Do you have ideas around that? You were talking about organising events and how can we organise this locally? It's a good question. It's a difficult answer. There are some countries like I think in Spain where they have a national association and I don't know if you have to or you can create the city or the local member of this association. So there are ways where there is a governance in some countries. If it works or not, then it depends by the members. The experience that I had is I started technology by joining a Linux user group. The Linux user group wasn't related to any big organisation, it was just a group and the only reason why people were attending was for the install tests, that's what we called. So you go there and you just know Linux to install the machine and that's it. Linux, I can tell you, is a pretty boring topic. Although we had people coming, sometimes a lot, just to have the system installed. And as I said, there was no organisation, no governance and there were a lot of lugs in the whole of Italy. As I said, there was no governance and I think it worked very well and it worked just because the local, there was no governance but the local was attracting people just because it was interesting. So I think if we, I know a big believer of governance coming from above. So the group association saying how we should do things, I know a big fan. It would be good, right, for some situation but I believe something coming from the bottom, like doing these kind of regular events where we showcase what we do to people, that is really going to work. Yeah, and do you see a possibility that we start sharing all these local initiatives and knowledge that we have, that we start sharing this amongst the countries. We have over 40 countries in Europe with different languages and do you think that that will be an interesting option that we start sharing? No, the way you're organised with the whole team, you've organised Drupal Camp successfully, and we can see that already. So I'll pause for that. But how did you do it and sharing that knowledge, would that be beneficial for helping Drupal as a whole? So at Drupal Cons they have the Community Day on the Monday, which is where people from different countries have got Drupal camps and they all meet together and they all have the same topic of how do we make our events success. And we started to produce a document where it's all shared on Drupal.org, on groups.drupal.org, where other people can contribute back to it and they can make amends, and this succeeds for our camp, this is how we can do it. And I think by having that knowledge base we can build upon the strengths of one event to another and we can learn from our mistakes and make it better. And by doing that, each year the Drupal event will grow and grow and grow, and we've got Drupal.com, which will tell you where all the Drupal events are. And in fact there's another six coming up very shortly. So we've got a lot of Drupal events and coming from working in an agency and dealing with a lot of other communities, Wordpress, Crafts, CMS, etc. They aren't as welcoming as the Drupal community is. Yes we do have arguments and stuff inside the community, but overall it's really healthy. Part of being on CWG, I see that other communities have a lot more issues than we do. So that's a good thing, but we want to make it better. But I think by us learning the mistakes we will make it stronger and going back to your earlier point about how we can make Drupal better overall. Sally is doing the JavaScript initiative for the Drupal content admin approach. Now that is a fantastic approach because that makes the content editors experience a thousand times better and a thousand times quicker than it currently is. One of the issues with Drupal is the UX. It's sluggish. Customers say, oh I prefer Wordpress because it's really easy to use. The amount of times I've heard that, it's a repetitive thing. The JAS initiative is changing that and I think by putting all these changes into place we're going to make Drupal stronger overall and we always pitch with Drupal but it's always not always the solution. But it would be amazing if it was always the solution and I think we're slowly getting there over time. I'll talk about this more on Sunday during my talks. I think the thing to remember with Wordpress is they've just been riffing on this one content type for like 15 years. They can do a blog post really well whereas we have... We're like, hey you can just build anything you can think of and so it's a lot harder to build something that has generic solutions for specific scenarios. So I wouldn't beat ourselves up too badly about that. Should we communicate more about that strength versus Wordpress that there is a differentiator between Wordpress and Drupal? Should we communicate more about that? Yeah, I think we... There's this trend to just add everything ever to Drupal Core and it's like every release cycle, everyone's excited if there's a new feature but I think we don't play to what our core strength is and that is you can build all these content types and add fields and field types and that's what it does really, really well and I don't see any other systems doing that as well as Drupal. And then there's lots of things in Drupal Core that authors and these people making these decisions just don't care about. So I'd love to see more effort put into fixing bugs associated with those rather than let's put all this time into these features that just aren't going to be useful for a lot of people. All right. Well, we talked about promoting Drupal. You were telling that, okay, on Drupal.org there is a page where you share knowledge about organizing camps. Would it be interesting to have a page in which we start sharing knowledge about promoting Drupal as in PR? Yeah. There is an initiative, the promoting Drupal initiative but should we find, let's say we're talking about local versus global should we find like local initiatives working together on a PR perspective even more? Like a press kit? A press kit? Well, yeah, well a press kit but also for example if the DA sends out a press release is that all local countries can translate it into their local language and then send it out to their local press. So the DA actually doesn't like people doing that from what I've seen. That's not true. It's true. If you look in the general channel in Slack about three days ago there was someone posted an article that was on Ask Technica I think and it was about one of the Drupal security vulnerability and it was mistyred it was like oh everyone's going to die because of this thing just wildly untrue and so I think someone had contacted ours and some representatives from the DA were like please don't do that just let us know and we'll deal with it and I think the reason is that maybe in the past some people have been talking to the press and it's kind of appeared that they're official representatives of Drupal and we all have our own take on everything so my impression from the DA has been like don't do that. My perspective is different because we have lots of discussions about generating PR but I'm in a position where I start having discussions how can we governance this across the globe to make sure there is a vulnerability there is a new version with lots of new features how can we bring this across to our audience via which channels and the DA is not in a position where they can send out a press release or they can send it out to an arts technical or anything but not to e-mers which is a local magazine in the Netherlands which has a powerful position they can't, they don't have the resources for that so I'm thinking about is there a way that we can set up a governance for PR as you are with organising camps I think there was a group a few years ago in the UK that a few companies got together to put a Drupal boot up it's an open source conference It is, yeah. Osconn was no, Riley but as I was really good in the Netherlands as well we've done that in the Netherlands but it also upsets some people to do that kind of thing because they feel like they're being left out or if the groups have certain ideas about Drupal then people get upset This is where probably the DA can play roles like okay, how do we communicate about Drupal what is the standardised language When you look for example you're saying in Spain there's a local association there's one in the Netherlands there's one in Germany there's quite a few local associations but the way they present themselves are different if you look at their local websites everybody's talking different about Drupal what it is, what the pros and cons are Do you think that the DA could play a role in standardising this across the globe? Would that be helping? What's your opinion on that? I think that everybody needs to have an understanding of what the objective is and needs to come to an agreement of what it is that we're trying to achieve everybody's probably heard this story it's one that sticks with me when NASA were attempting to go to the moon there were obviously loads of scientists and engineers and they knew exactly what they were doing but you go into the office and you ask the janitor and you ask them what his job is and he says I'm helping to put people on the moon at every single level whatever people's role is and whatever their impact is what they're trying to achieve to do that you need to know what you're trying to achieve and then you need to have a standard way of your team being a part of that So you're saying that we should create a dot on the horizon that everybody can understand is that what you're saying? It's got to be a challenge though because we have quite a diverse diversity, a diverse community and they all have specific ideas on what Drupal is Do you think there's a common initiator? A common denominator Yeah, that's the word Do you think that's possible? So by a dot on the vision this doesn't necessarily mean one discrete entity or one technically defined object it's a vision, right? It still can be open to interpretation and still leave plenty of room for variation of diversity but it's that vision that needs to exist on the horizon that everybody can agree with in a way that makes sense to them So Andries Bartart has announced that Drupal is for ambitious project Is that specific enough for you? So yeah, that's the question Is it specific enough? Drupal is for ambitious project or would you like to see it more narrowed down? I think he even explicitly said it's for enterprise in Drupal Europe, sorry Ambitious, that's mostly the word he's been using and probably he's been using enterprise as well but what I've seen online is that it's ambitious Would that be narrow enough for you and your colleagues to work with? Can you turn the camera into a proper answer to that? No, just It's a bit It's a bit waffly to me like it's not specific enough I mean if they said what's Drupal and I said Drupal is for ambitious digital experiences and like what does that mean? Is that not the difference in Drupal and between a vision and a mission? I've been to it recently Some people need the specific but some people need motivation by aiming for something a bit fluffier So is you saying the dot on the horizon is to make ambitious digital experiences? That's accurate, isn't it? That is Drupal's I understood it as it's for ambitious projects I think it's probably kind of differentiated from say word tracks which might be for general past wearers Drupal is more complex but it's also more capable so therefore it probably is suitable for ambitious projects I would agree I think Drupal is for anyone so you've got the Drupal support Facebook group we've got people from all over the world we've got, they've just started their first web development site to someone that's been doing it for 10-15 years and you're getting the hobbyists to the enterprise level and the fact that we are getting all these different types of skills and people from different backgrounds is really great because it's showing that Drupal, yes it's originally classed as an enterprise system and it is, it is an enterprise system we can do so much with Drupal out of the box in fact I've written a book on it so you can that's a plug there I don't know what's going on they're all in my house and it basically as a developer coming to Drupal what would I want to know and it shows you that there's so much in Drupal without actually touching any code you don't get that in WordPress as much in WordPress you get the hacky approach that you can edit templates you can have anti-wordpress actually we completely disagree with you about Drupal being for everyone, it's not for everyone like if my friend who owns a flower shop was like I need a website, I'm not going to be like you should use Drupal because that's like a maintenance nightmare for them and then inevitably me use Squarespace until there's a flower shop distribution sorry until there's a flower shop distribution well even then it's like they just want to they want to get on with running their business they don't want to like be restoring corrupted databases up to it just use a service I don't think they need to use Drupal and that's okay but we will say like a lot of people talk about the growth of Drupal is like imperative and I think it's okay if we don't grow, I think it's okay if we stay the same I got a question here can I just on clients, people like me who uses the system as a content editor and I have marketing people doing their jobs and I know that Megan Sneaky was here last year and the point she made was as you mentioned as well Drupal needs to be more accessible to people who use it and I do understand the point as to why people leave Drupal to go to WordPress and it's purely based on how easy is this for me to use capabilities obviously we all know that functionality is key and how much you can do with it but as a client and again talking about messaging you want to recruit and reinforce your messaging but obviously you need to know who you are to be talking to are you talking to people actually making the decisions about we need Drupal or we need WordPress and that message about ambitious is too generic from my point of view because as a client I want something that is going to be useful for me that I can grow that I can actually see developing in the next few three, four, five years and I can stay within Drupal rather than thinking about moving and migrating and creating a brand new website so I think that maybe obviously as a client we are also expecting to have that communication coming from Drupal and the role that agencies play in this I think is also key because if I outsource my work all the information about what's going on inside Drupal I'm expecting my agency to feel it through me rather than me coming here just to find out by myself so I think that this is just like my feedback from my experience with Drupal in the last couple of years and I think there is a huge potential but I think that the fact that there are quite a lot of mixed messages and people don't have that kind of clear objective as to what's the mission and we need to communicate to specific groups I think that's what maybe Drupal is missing the point but I think that again it's not for everyone as she clearly pointed out and it depends on what the business needs and that's when we basically make the decision about staying with Drupal or just moving somewhere else so that's basically I don't know if you want to maybe just give me an answer or maybe just your points of view as to what do you think when you think about the clients like me for example I think it's very good what you're saying I think it's about half a year ago that the Drupal Association decided to diversify our communication towards end users when you go to Drupal.org now you'll say Drupal for marketers so we are changing that now from a board perspective I can say so from a DA perspective but that's a lot more that we can do I call this account based marketing so who are we talking to who's our target audience who are the decision makers for them when they have to choose for ACMS so that's the work to be done so thank you for this feedback because I see that people have got different conversations internally but also don't forget about other people who are also coming to if I see that my Drupal experience is a good one to have I would definitely recommend to someone else coming to me asking what CMS do you use or what system do you use to maintain your website and I would go and say I use Drupal because of this I will have my own kind of argument Moving to conversation you're saying you are also relying on an agency if you work with them what is it you expect from them what kind of information would you like to see from them In my case it's because we don't have the Drupal in-house knowledge I'm expecting to have guidance from my agency as to how much we can grow with the existing configuration of our website if there are new releases I'm expecting to hear from them and say we've got new modules that you might be interested in because I know that you do these type of activities in your organization and maybe that's a project that you might want to think about so that sort of productivity I think that's what I will expect from my agency just say okay we have a retainer we maintain your site and you know that's it and they leave us just to run that way and if you have any issues then we fix them etc but I'm looking for that expertise that guidance that you know would you be interested in I'm thinking from a DA perspective newsletter these are new modules being published on Drupal.org and local associations translating that in their local language and sending out local press release would that be interesting for a client like you in my case yes I would be happy to receive these type of communications because I'm a kind of curious person so I'm not just relying on what my agency is telling me I want to find out from other people's experiences to see what work they are doing and what progress they have run etc so I'm kind of you know in two months I would like to hear from people as well as from the community okay cool are the communications that come from the DA segmented to audience already or is it no not yet no so something we should work on I think we're from a client organisation as well and until today's reinforce black box yeah it was just alright although I think the agency didn't have a good job of what they built I think we probably have a similar experience so I think as an organisation you can certainly help make Drupal more transparent so it's really interesting interesting stuff what do you think your working with agencies there is a valid point in here oh sorry it's every work in agencies I don't think you introduced any of us so maybe you could tell us what you do and what your name is I'm Gabby I'm formal chef I work for my festival and I'm basically a Drupal practice lead it's an interesting point and I have to say that probably one of the takings takers from today it should be that Drupal and Drupal community they're really great on doing stuff any kind of stuff promotion, improvements and the security wise and the communication we are not really good at promoting so there are a lot of newsletters at any kind of level there is no segmentation in the way of DA but there are different newsletters in the Drupal community there are more or less technical more or less sales oriented more or less innovation oriented we are not good at promoting Drupal is it called web drop the newsletters it's not daily, I think it's weekly it's every Thursday it could be really good for you because there are some top section articles and then more in deep tutorial and then the latest from the latest modules that the top used and this could be interesting for you to come back to that and say that this can be done in the black box the Drupal community produce a lot of documentation if we were looking no no no no that's what I'm saying I don't think we should look if you do it should be really easy for you to find I think what we are missing here is a really good channel of communication and in this case it's probably a task for the DA to have these tools or resources available and easy findable I feel like with those newsletters and documentation you already have to know about Drupal to be in a subject to receive those and I'd love to see us reach out to more content strategy communities for example just look a little bit outside of our bubble and I'm really curious just raise your hand if you deal with incoming clients for your agency and keep no no, keep your hands up okay keep your hand up if they've already chosen Drupal by the time they find you they're like one person for better our experience so I work my name is Sally I'm a senior technical architect at Lollavot we do lots of client work and a lot of the time people have already chosen Drupal by the time they seek us out and I would love it if we could just reach a little bit further up that decision making process we all of us would have opportunities to get into more projects that maybe have already discarded Drupal whether or not that was right for them be good to have the opportunity is that because Lollavot being a very strong player within the Drupal community with very strong Drupal positioning would that be because you are very active within the community and is that because you think the requests that come in, the RFPs are already focusing on Drupal is that what you think I know it's not just us though because we talk to a lot of other agencies people have already decided on they decide on the technology agencies that specialize in that technology rather than like we need a CMS and so we should look at resources that tell us lots of things about CMSs in general which is where they'll look and I don't think Drupal has very good reach in those kind of marketing materials that's something we can focus on in general but also locally we can do this globally but also locally a CMS meetup would be super cool it would be nice to like hang out with other CMS people and that's a way to grow our community without pigeonholing people into just doing Drupal as well Interesting idea Talking about events there's clients here you've come to Drupal camp now are you also visiting other events like CMS events or tech events new sales marketing technology exposing their review where they bring every single technology available for us different levels for CMS CMSs e-commerce everything so yes I'm very keen on understanding what the industry is doing how I can benchmark what I'm using versus the OS Would you be interested in Drupal would attend those events as well I was wondering why you don't you don't see Drupal there well to open source that is the challenge yes but still people might be interested in just finding out more about you having more visibility I think that might help also to people who are already using it it's not going to be like a black box just like you happen to them so I think it would be useful we want to attend these events would that be something for local associations that they start attending collecting money and attend events as well yes as long as it was I think it needs to be an open process with a good governance model so that it doesn't end up with a closed shop of three people they only want to go and they own it that costs money right it means money we know that the local committees don't organize things like that well I think what you need for that is size within the market you need to have a serious amount of Drupal shops that are willing to promote Drupal all together drawing the pie together and that requires a lot of guts but also belief in effect that if you join forces in terms of marketing everybody will gain from it and that requires a lot of guts but also money if you all chip in money together you can attend at the larger events where those take-holders are as you were talking about we want to reach out before they make the decision for Drupal as you hear they visit events they want to get inspired and this is where you can do general lead generation for Drupal but that requires money as an ex-local I still organize stuff locally it's not money that's the problem finding a sponsor isn't generally that hard for local events it's venues venues are a total nightmare it's not necessarily paying the venues it's like hey can we find somewhere that's open after hours usually and then also if you're after hours you're excluding lots of people who aren't doing this as volunteerism because we're enterprise now it's people's jobs there's a lot of problems with local organizing I don't think it just comes down to money so when I did the session today and I spoke about the second which is what you should do which is completing your work sponsoring event or giving a venue so just even giving an idea or participating in the decision process it's really important because I'm sure that all of you have much more knowledge than we can do about what venues could be available if your office could be available or if your office could be available that's really important for you to chip in or get your employees to come and speak that's really helpful so changing the subject over to diversity you had a great talk about diversity and I know for example at Drupalcom nearly 50% of the speakers is from a diverse background what can we do on a local level to promote diversity are there any ideas on that subject you gave a presentation already I'll give a couple of thoughts I think it would be really interesting to crowdsource some ideas as well I don't think actually in your name you asked me a question about positive discrimination and should we ask women of different backgrounds to speak at events because of who they are and I think that is a really good and important place to start we absolutely need to make sure that for people who are attending events whether they are a part of the community already or considering joining what they see in front of them is a representative community that it is inclusive and that people are welcomed in the first instance to do some behaviours that we don't necessarily want to stick permanently but we need to make sure that before we are at that point where it is diverse and we don't have such rigid stereotypes that we make a concerted effort to break them I think there are some really good tests online that you can take about cognitive bias and I would highly encourage everyone in this room to do it because it might feel like you are making an effort to someone you might not have before but people don't realise you might be making assumptions about that person they would be just as good a speaker as some dude you were going to get instead so I think it is good for us to reach outside of our comfort zone and so on So would you say that this is a subject and even a test that everybody can do at a Drupal camp for example to experience when you have cognitive bias would that be something I think we also need to create spaces where people can feel comfortable so it is all very well getting people from diverse backgrounds to come but if we don't retain them because we have people in the meetups acting shitty and leadership won't deal with it then there is no point for you So you say leadership should deal with it should you talk about leadership from a DA perspective or local camp leaders or local community leaders who do you define as leaders in this respect I have so many opinions about this I mean if I am organizing a meetup in London then whether I like it or not it puts me in a leadership position and so as part of that I should be taking on responsibility for the health of the thing that I am organizing I think it would be really great if the DA could have some kind of guidelines or something even so far as like if you don't subscribe to our code of conduct I don't think the Drupal code of conduct is very good but the Drupal common one is much better like if you don't use that you can't use Drupal as the name in your meetup for example I think the DA could be a lot I don't know what the word is for that but that is a top down you were talking about you should not do a top down but bottom up I think it's different so what we are saying and this is exactly the same that we are doing when I give the example of the Linux user groups there was a day in the year which is called Linux day and it wasn't organized it was the Italian Linux society was saying look you can organize a look on this locally whoever can they will be on our list for that day otherwise you know it's not like enforcing you can do whatever you want but if you want to use Drupal you should use the code of conduct so it's not enforcing it's not me saying what you have to do you are free to do whatever you do as long as covers these guidelines can I go back to what you just said about top down and application of bottom up I think neither one is going to work on their own top down and bottom up you have to have sponsorship whether it's in a company at the board level whether it's in the DA whether it's the leaders of a local Drupal camp you have to have sponsorship at the top level that this is something that we care about and this is a priority and then on the ground those of us who are individual contributors it needs to be something that we are always talking about that we feel safe enough to talk about that we can start to break down those boundaries sponsorship from the top that gives us the confidence to do that so I think there isn't one answer if there is one answer the answer is that there's lots of different things that all need to be done at the same time in order to make a change interesting we're done alright I would like to thank you for being on the panel sharing all your knowledge I would like to thank the audience as well for giving us a lot of value or input and I want to round of applause for everybody thank you