 Hey everyone watching this recording of the service design show live as I like to call it the second edition here on Facebook Facebook live and This is going to be a live episode around the service design global conference 2017 that took place in Madrid and I invited to guests to share their highlights What they thought about the conference what were the interesting things because I wasn't able to Actually attend the conference. I'm looking forward to hearing their stories. One of the guests is already in and that's Dennis hamburgers Welcome Dennis. Thank you mark We're waiting for Andrea. Hopefully I will manage your awareness on technical issues technology is always Deep but let's hope entry. I will manage to to join us within a few minutes Dennis for the people who don't know who you are. Could you just give her like a one-minute introduction? Yeah, my name is Dennis hamburgers. I work as at the design agency in Maastricht called Söderlicht and I worked there as a strategic design consultant I have a little bit of a hybrid background. I Started my studies at the day you delft. I studied technology policy and management and then went on a 15-year journey through design. I also went to to art school after that and I worked at different design agencies and architecture firms and at one point stumbled upon service design For me that would that was like a Homecoming of I was almost that they remember the moment that you got in touch with services and my typical question Yeah, I don't know the exact moment But I was doing a bigger project with a more holistic approach and talking to users and Trying to figure out the user journey and then at some point I ran into some articles about okay This is service design. So I Concluded like okay. I was doing I was looking for apparently people call this service design And then I found of course the the key word to look further You know what you had to Google. Yeah, exactly. Yeah Awesome, there are already people watching us Dennis, so that's that's great If you are tuned in live at this moment Type in a chat and let us know where you're watching from because I'm really curious Who made it to this live episode? We're planning to do about well, let's say 30 40 minutes depending on how many questions there are so Leave a comment on the Facebook post and let us know where you're watching from and type in a yes or a no if you actually attend that the conference so I'll say a big hi to everyone in the chat. You can also Join in I think Dennis on the chat just directly on Facebook and I think Andrea is coming along. Yeah Looking good I'll add Andrea to the broadcast. There we go Andrea To maybe Are we live? We are definitely live so say hi to everyone Happy it's on my coffee cup or something Yeah, we are really small. We were like three pieces. So And you're joining from San Francisco right now, right? Yeah, or is it We're stumbling with the camera. Yeah, sorry. I'm trying to get it Continuing with saying hi to everyone in the chat 13 people are watching. So Let me see if I can show this comment Let's hide this and hide this Too bad. Oh, let's see. Oh, we can do really funny things Like this. This is our second Facebook live event. So we are still figuring out how our everything looks Cool Andrea Dennis just gave a 60 second introduction about Who he is and what he does so maybe for the people who don't know who you are could you Briefly introduce yourself Yeah, sure I'm Andrea Feynman and I work in San Francisco at adaptive path, which is the service design group Inside capital one and so for anyone that doesn't know about capital one It's a financial services company mostly based here in the US, but also Canada and the UK so I'm a service designer and they focus on All kinds of customer and employee Experiences and design strategy for all of capital ones various businesses that that sounds like a lot I'm not the only one here Um Awesome, so I'm sitting at home Dennis is at home. You're probably at the studio right now and Like I said, I'm encouraging everyone who's watching this type in join in on the chat We'll be asking you a question guys and girls because this is live and we would like to interact I'll try to keep an eye on all the comments that are coming in for them to Andrea and Dennis so My goal of today is to learn a little bit about the highlights of the service design network Or it's actually the service design global conference because I wasn't there and I invited you to or you to volunteer it actually to share your highlights So I would say let's go over them One by one and we'll start with you with you Dennis and then move over to Andrea and then sort of bounce it back And forward until we are left out of highlights Okay, how does that sound good good? Yeah, yeah, so Dennis It's it's up to you to kick it off. You know, what was what was your number one highlight from the conference? Yeah, let me maybe just start off by saying that what was a wonderful conference in total I it's a big add to the conference and a lot of talk a lot of Inspirations and I think what I especially like about the conference also it's a little bit the end of the year So it's looking back like how was last year's service design and looking forward to After what we're gonna do next year and I always find it Fascinating how the theme of the the conference really links to issues that people are are dealing with and What what the theme was it was This year it was scaling service design. So like last year it was Service design is the new normal. So we like last year was a little bit the conclusion that okay service design really Matured and really a lot of people are enthusiastic about it. They're really big successes with service design projects So it's that becoming the new gold standard for innovation projects So this year I think going further on that Topic it was because if then you have success and the bigger projects get bigger and I get more Projects you get all different set of problems. You don't have to prove the the value of service design anymore, but you run into scaling issues and I think a lot of people, you know, yeah, I think we at least I see that Also in a lot of episodes that I do that scaling is a big big topic at this moment Yeah, a lot of people talked about it in very different viewpoints and What I found interesting is that when you talk about scaling like in the in the like in the center of service design Everything is going well. Have people are having successes and having good projects, but the scaling I found it interesting That's a little bit about the edges. Is service design getting To what direction is it scaling? Is it just getting bigger projects? Or is it maybe moving a little bit? That definition of service design of what what we should do and I think one of the first Highlights I picked from the from the conference was also the opening keynote by Louisa down I think she also was a guest here And I wrote down a quote she gave and it's like this She said service design is not about the ability of a designer to design a service But about the ability of an organization to deliver that service So this was also a topic that was around the conference like it's services. I'm just about designing Is it finished after you? Delivered the services. I'm blueprint. Yeah, I'll shoot the service designer also Consider himself with the delivery and the process Afterwards, what are your thoughts about that? Yeah, I'm I'm all in the delivery camp. I should I think Yeah, so sort of design without any delivery is not not good service design and But I think when you Yeah No, I think because when you scale And this is one aspect of scaling and you could say, okay, we're doing research and we're doing design and With we could scale into the delivery Face so we could also own that phase or contribute to it at least But are we equipped to do you think? you know Architects aren't the construction workers, you know, are we the construction workers too? Yeah, I think we have to know a little bit about it because funny that you say because I worked at the two different Architecture firms and they also had two different approaches to that one had more of an okay The architecture the designs are finished. Let's give it to the constructors and they're gonna build it and the other architect says Okay, now I made the designs and I'm gonna check every day at the construction site if the constructor is building it the way it should have been built and What I found like in the project I do that a lot of the challenges and a lot of a lot of things Like the most and the hardest work is done at the delivery phase That can make a beautiful design, but once you get into a like agile development process There's a lot of decisions have to be made the design has to be adjusted You have to work with technology with the business and yeah If the design can be a part of that the quality of the end product will be a lot higher so Let's just keep the pace of pretty high that the highlight one was you know, do we have to? Involve ourselves in the delivery phase and if so how and how much right that's basically yeah I think that's a really big question that we're facing And I think my first highlight is kind of similar to what Dennis said. I think Like like Marcus saying not everybody can or nobody can be the number one most skilled person at every step in the process and so while service designers are especially Known for being able to look across all the touch points and know know a little bit about all the different areas like Dennis is saying Um, I think there's limits to how much we can be the number one expert in the room about both the strategy and the research and The ability to bring all the touch points together and also then the delivery and all of the different things that that entails Yeah And what I noticed Uh, it was really the most striking thing to me during the conference was that I felt like the speakers all had really different viewpoints And I feel like If if if they had been in a conversation Like we're having right now versus giving individual talks I feel like there might have been a lot of disagreement between the speakers and Specifically in terms of such things as what is service design and what should service designers do I thought those are I thought we had that discussion We were over that discussion, but it's a whole new thing again Yeah, I think with the um the aspect of scaling like Dennis is saying It raises these questions again in terms of How do we do service design and how do we spread it towards all the people in an organization? What elements do we teach and what elements do we specialize in? I think this is another area where Teaching and training is a huge part of service design. Probably all of us have been involved in Corporate trainings of some sort either taking them or teaching them Um and figuring out I think that that do delivering corporate training also is a huge part of how a lot of groups are trying to scale service design I know we're doing that here where I work and so um That forces you to ask the question how where do we specialize when we're not teaching or is teaching our whole job Right, then that's interesting. You know for the people who are all live right now, you know Is teaching our job as service designers is that our end role? That's really interesting take, right? Yeah, I think teaching uh is important and I don't think you could get away with being a service designer and never teaching or I think uh, it's not a very nice attitude to say you don't want to share or you don't want to teach at all But on the other hand teaching and designing I think are separate locations and so You could do half and half or however you want to balance it There's still an element of designing user customer employee experiences whatever that we do Which is not strictly education Mm-hmm Yeah, go ahead Dennis. Well, what if I think for maybe a question for Andrea is because she's working at a very large service design agency and if this is different because service design in my view Uh, especially when you're working at a small agency. It's very holistic You say you cannot be the best at this that and that but uh, if you're in a small team, you have to be a little bit more Holistic and who the more holistic you are the better the end quality maybe is but maybe you're working at a bigger agency And I can imagine that the services are more specialized in your Yeah, I think that's definitely part of it. And I think the way that My group works is a lot more like an in-house team than an agency. And so there's hundreds of people that work at capital one who are really talented at Doing UX and doing user research Um designing UIs. There's a lot of there's like in my group. There's no developers. And so throughout capital one There's tons of really talented front end developers Um, it would be kind of silly if we kind of came in from San Francisco And we were like oh, we're here to tell you about front end development and how it works Like yeah, I know a little bit about that, but I would never Be able to go get a job in capital one HQ as a front end developer because I don't have those kinds of skills So I think that's an area where We offer what we have to offer, but we To some extent we stay out of telling other people how to do their job when it comes to other Aspects that other crafts of design That's funny how you put it there because telling people I think when in my experience when it's a more agile Setting it's not about telling people what to do But if you're a little bit more t-shaped just cooperating and co-creating Then I think it helps when you know a little bit about developments to also Speak the language of the developers talk to them maybe help them find better solutions and Also find the solution within between development design and technology Yeah, that's totally true. I think in a company with 50 000 employees You'll never have a workshop that has a developer and a process engineer and an employee training person and all the different people that you need to Affect every touch point in the customer journey Right, you know guys This this you're not going to make this into a regular service design show episode We're going to talk about the conference. Let's get back to the conference Very we've got some new guests who joined in Saying hi to everyone who's watching live. Thanks for joining the service design show and Andrea and Dennis and me Again, feel free to join in on the chat Type in a yes or no if you've been to the conference. Let us know where you're watching from them would be really awesome Dennis go ahead number two highlight number two Number two was was also a quote from a woman called Xenia Validas. I hope I pronounced that right She said The key skill of a service designer is his ability to zoom out You should own the overarching perspective for maximum impact and relevance I think it also connects to what we're talking about And this is one of the one of the extremes. Maybe I would somebody says, okay, maybe there will be specializations in service design this woman was saying, okay Service design is already holistic, but we need to zoom out even further To add more value Did she point to some scenarios No, she didn't but what I what I found interesting like from a zooming out perspective. There was I think that were on it there were two people from the BBVA the the financial institution On the stage with bergit margas. They were doing a Talk with the three of them and they said one of the they have now they've achieved design officer and he said For all innovations projects We have to have technology design and business on a team. Otherwise you cannot start with with the project and I think the zooming out for me also has to do with with this. So you have the A bigger view of Of the elements that are involved. So you also take a look at the technology part. You take a look at the business part and another Someone who's talking about zooming out was saying something along the lines of you. We shouldn't design Just the services, but the whole we should focus on the ecosystem So this is also a level of Of zooming out that that you could connect to the to the quote from from zinnia Anything to add to that or to connect to that Andrea. Did you recognize that on? Yeah, I really like zinnia's talk. I think Part of what zinnia was getting at was so zinnia is a professor at GAD and so she teaches Students like college students and graduate students in the service design major there And I think she probably does a lot of thinking about what is service design? How is it differentiated? What does it mean to be a service designer versus ux designer and stuff like that? And I feel like what she was get this is my interpretation. What she's getting at was about That specialization aspect or just differentiate. It's kind of a paradox, right? differentiating service designers as people that Are looking after the overarching experience Hmm Yeah, maybe also Trying to ask a question in the beginning at maybe also to the audience because this uh moving into the delivery Taking the business design and technology perspective looking at ecosystems instead of just services and like maybe this is a nice question for the audience that You posted in the beginning like do the service lines have the skills to do that, huh? Do we If we want to scale it up like this Do the service are the service lines equipped to do this or not? And then scale up in the sense of zooming out. You mean are we able to design ecosystems? Exactly because then it gets even more complex Already enough already. Yeah, it's a really complex, but should we make it even more complex and How does this add value and can we do it? If we wanted to Yeah, so Everyone watching, you know, do you do you think service designers have the capabilities or if they don't which capabilities would we need to actually Zoom out even more and design even bigger things I think the videos from the conference will be online really soon. So, um senior stock Yeah, check it out, right Benjra Highlight number two for you Yeah, um, so the second thing that I wanted to talk about is this idea of systems thinking or designing for systems I think that has to do with your question Um, I so I'm kind of new to this topic and I don't know how this would work But in terms of what skills do people need or what attitude do people need to take if they're going to focus On the ecosystem or the overarching aspect of the experience. I think there might be some Answers for us in the world of systems. I don't even know if systems thinking is the right way to phrase it But there was a whole track during the conference Like a sidetrack of speakers about systems And I thought it was really great. Um, the room was packed all the people that spoke really good. There was one woman I think from the northern ireland government And she comes from a field called systems dynamics, I think um And she had so many interested and she I would say maybe she doesn't come from a design Discipline or a design background, but she's worked in a field like service design where for 50 years People don't people in the outside world don't necessarily know what that is. They haven't it's not like being a doctor Something where people know instantly what that is um, and they've had their own Kind of identity crises over the years in terms of trying to spread their ideas to the outside world and then feeling nervous about whether they're really, uh Making the right impact or really getting through to people what they're getting at. Um, when they're trying to spread their ideas but she introduced some concepts from a lot of different disciplines and science and statistics and politics about How to plan for evolving ecosystems, which I feel like is a huge thing right now So this is my question to Dennis and you and to the audience. Um How we can kind of get into this and learn more in an appropriate way And could you specify this? Uh systems thinking systems design this whole discipline of understanding systems that has grown up in the 20th century outside of design Because because we've borrowed a lot of tools and methods from sociology anthropology all that kind of stuff. What can we borrow from the systems thinking? Fields, right? Yeah, what do they have to offer for us? Yeah Yeah, it's a funny thing. Yeah, because I was telling an introduction what I studied in delft when I studied there the the education was called systems engineering policy analysis and management There you go. There was a whole like one third of the the education was about systems engineering and What we did there was to use because systems Typically cannot be deducted fully you cannot Break it into parts because there's so many interactions between all the parties in the system that you cannot Know how the system would react. So what we did there for instance is a lot of simulations about systems so we had you program all the The elements and all their interactions and you try to put in A measure or you put in a variable and you see how it how it works So you see from the reaction of the of the system how this Works And what I find interesting with when you come when you see also Like a system an organization as a system where you come in with your service design That's also the service this design is also a force in the system that changes things and changes people it changes Relations with changes interactions And for me this like this ripple effect of the design that you bring in for me is the most interesting part about design and service design That you Yeah, they create a platform for people to come together you create new mindsets So you are actually creating a new force into the system that that the organization is Hmm Susanna just shared interesting link In the chat Linked to thinking in systems is a nice introduction. Thanks for that Susanna I think there are so much we we still Can learn and can benefit from fields like this or like you said Andrea have been Thinking about this for quite a long time. And now we're coming in and trying to yeah to figure out how It all works, right Do you still remember who was this a public? Presentation do you think the video will be online or was this a breakout session? Uh, yeah, I would I'm sure they were filming it. I mean, I can't say with certainty Um that she was able to give the rights to publish the video to the conference, but Um, her name was Sarah Wiley She was from Northern Ireland All right. All right Um Was was that your second highlight? So the how do we integrate system thinking? Uh into practice of service design Yeah All right, um Let's move on Dennis. Yeah Yeah, I think you can make a nice bridge to my third highlight because if we're Moving into different fields like systems engineering and And other things also technology Like the the third thing I found this was uh, maybe zooming out Even a level bigger. There were two quotes that I found interesting one by uh, Nico Coivisto He said that uh, we should step out of the design bubble And related to that, uh, there was a woman's called Sarah Drummond. She said, uh, don't be the agency So for me it was Yeah What she meant was I think what I how I interpreted it was that uh, you don't Like you should blend more with the it should be more be more of a partnership with the organization You're working with it's not like you have you're an agency and you have a different There's a certain approach and certain tools and you have to do it like this, but you should Uh Yeah, work in the reality of the organization like the best practices people that are there. This is the The medium let's say you have to work with as a as a service designer And I think it also relates to this this this design bubble idea That uh, yeah, you should step over the boundaries and even I think Andrea also said it In the beginning, maybe you shouldn't even call it service design what you're doing Just help the organization move ahead and not confuse them with all kinds of terms like service design design thinking business design just Yeah, try to solve business problems from them within the situation that that's at hand And uh, how did sarah Small school for the people who are watching sarah will be a future guest on the show Coming really soon so I can ask her questions we have but um What if if it's not the agency and it's more of a partnership, um How does that look in practice did she uh, give some again scenarios paint a picture how how the the future agency might look No, I don't think she did that she just uh pointed to Uh Obstacles if you don't do it if you're that it's for an organization who wants to hire service designers They don't want to hire in a couple of people who come in with their way of doing and totally do not uh match with the the organization that's there and it can be really really annoying Uh, and like they maybe they have an idea. They heard about service design. I think it's a good idea But then a service design agency comes in with an arrogant Attitude maybe and with their own ways of doing and they don't take into consideration The the reality of the business and then it just is a mismatch Uh, and I think this is the problem. Yeah, I guess this also has to deal with uh, uh, thinking of service design in terms of projects versus thinking of service design in terms of department or uh Organizational skill. What do you think about that Andrew? Yeah, I think everything that Dennis is saying really So I don't work with Sarah Drummond, but everything Dennis is saying about her talk really reflects The way that my group works. So we really, uh, we try really hard not to seem like an outside agency Um, we try to be as integrated as we can which is a challenge because the company has two headquarters And neither of them is in the same city where we live So that's a challenge. Um but the idea of uh coming in and trying to understand the business and then Not just dropping off when the project ends and saying well, okay See and ever like you figure out how to build this Instead we're staying linked with them and we think of it Some of our projects are pretty cut and dried and then there's a little bit of continuing work But some of them are more like programs where there's no there may be phases, but there's no definitive goal that we reach the end of and then The other people are on their own Yeah, you're working towards customer centricity or employee experience and that's That's a never-ending process, right? Yeah, and I think the company is actually really Really focused on doing the right thing for customers And I think it with any one decision in the moment I think people throughout capital one are really good at making the right decision But I think it's the overarching strategy about how the service Works for customers and for the business and for the people that work here that that's the lens that we bring Um, and we are uh, what was your third highlight? My third highlight Yeah, um, so I saw a talk at the members day by a woman named Marzia Arrico And she works at live work. Um, I think she's the head of insights. I'm not sure Maybe that's like head of research or something. I'm not sure but she gave a really really good talk It was pretty short. It was really concise. Um, I felt like she had done a bunch of research And synthesized it into some really good points and then she just delivered them like here you go And everyone was just eating it up. So one of her things that she um That she presented to us based off all the research that she's done into trends about the industry is that She thinks that in the future service designers will specialize in four areas and I don't think she was saying that you have to choose one or You know, you have to do these four you're out or something Um, but the four areas of specialty that she saw service designers um, kind of filtering into were number one relationship designers I think that has to do with Any in-person or interpersonal interactions, whether they're with humans or with bots or something Um, the next one was behavior design, which I think is easy to understand behavioral economics Andrea your your connection broke off or mined it for the last 30 seconds. So I I cut you off In the cliffhanger way we were saying the four So could you start from there the so the first one was relationship designer And so I think she meant designing relation or designing interactions both between humans and between humans and bots and things like that The second one was behavior designer. So I think that one's pretty easy to understand Because behavioral change and behavioral economics as an idea has been Really huge in service design and UX and product design for a long time The third one was visualizer so I think what she meant by that was helping organizations by mapping and showing What's going on in the organization and what's going on in the ecosystem? Which is a huge thing that service designers all do today And then the last one was translator and I think what she meant by that was kind of like a data translator like someone who can translate research or facts or data within the organization more of a like a technical minded person who um can help translate between engineers and business people and software people and People that do employee training and all the different groups of people In the organization who have their own languages and their own expertise and specialties So what was this a highlight for you? What did you enjoy this talk? I felt like it was a really um You don't always see that often someone presenting research about trends or predictions That are presented with such good data and confidence that to where you say You know This person really put in the research and it really shows and I feel really confident that what she has to say is true And I felt like the four areas of focus that she mentioned were they just really resonated with me I that's not to say. Oh, I can see myself doing all four roles personally, but um I felt like she had really Hit upon four areas that are really popular or big in our discipline But we don't always think of them as distinct She activated them pretty well Yeah Um, cool. So my question to the audience is of those four roles Relationship designer behavior designer visualizer and translator Where do people see themselves fitting in or like if you were going to specialize in one in your organization? Like what seems most natural to you? So, yeah, come on guys in the chat a lot of people are watching actually so that's pretty cool. Um Are you a visualizer relationship builder? translator the Fourth one behavioral behavioral designer. So everybody in the chat. Uh, leave a comment guys Um, Dennis, I know that we haven't talked about this yet, but you also presented during the conference, right? Yes. Yes Uh, and I saw that you posted the medium, uh post. Um Was this about your presentation? No, this was not about my presentation. I posted my presentation I posted it on slideshare, but uh, feel free to to post a link on the thread here on facebook God could you give us like a super short recap of your presentation? Yeah, I think the the the main message of our presentation In relation to scaling service design is that we talked about, uh, how much the little things matter like we said like service design as a Craft might seem easy. You can uh, explain to anybody in five to ten minutes how to make a stakeholder map or draw a customer journey or All these tools that users seem very easy, but uh, we try to stress the The the little things that make or break service design projects, huh? If you want to give us one example Uh, one example was, um, we talked about, uh, for instance stakeholder map We said we we found I did the presentation Together with uh, with the cloud with the client I worked with from the master university And we we once came in with the two of us came into a project And we thought it was a good idea to draw a stakeholder map to get an idea of the of all the Stakeholders but also to introduce into this project that the visualization and co-creation Aspects of service design So we started to draw the map and we explained how it worked And we planned a couple of workshops But we ended up just discussing all the details of all the stakeholders ways to draw the map and We didn't really, uh There were no insights created. There were no creative ideas and uh, so in the end We did three workshops, but it was uh, the result was no bigger than if we would just have a simple list of all the stakeholders so, uh just to point that uh That although it might seem an easy tool. It doesn't always Lead to the results you want And your presentation, uh, if people want to know more about your presentation It is on slideshare, right people can watch it and I probably will see the recording after we're done with the Broadcast type in the link on uh type it in as a comment so people can find it. Um Let's uh, there was one question in the chat actually for you entry on that's from rachel And she's saying could you say a bit more about the difference between our relationship and behavioral designers? What what this? Yeah, um, well to be clear It's not my idea. It was marzia's idea. So I don't want to take credit for it. Um but I think the idea about relationship design was, um I think maybe content strategy and employee training and employee experience are some areas that fall into that um Designing the way that customers interact with employees or designing the way that you interact with Siri or a chat bot or something Um, that was an area of focus that she had and the other one was behavioral design, which would be like um Gamifying your fitbit or something to help you lose weight or changing behaviors inside an organization so that people can Work together more easily or I hope those. I hope marzia is not listening and uh, those are good examples Well, if she is I hope she as you will join on the chat. I hope this helps rachel, um Um, any any, um, uh, what's what's uh, what are you hoping for for the conference for next year? What do you hope, uh, anglia? What do you hope to see next year? Next year, um Well, so one thing that I'm really interested in is data and how data can be used to design services that are kind of Like living services is how they talk about it at fjord Um services that are always adjusting that can be personalized Um, I think there's a way for service designers to design principles or guidelines or Kind of the texture of a service and then have technology Actually carry it out and adjust it in different ways Um, but I don't know how to do that yet. It's kind of like, oh, of course we could do that But if only someone could figure out how and write a case study Um Well interesting. Yeah. Yeah, that's something that I'm really interested in and I hope to see I feel like it's really hard to even have the vocabulary around this topic And I'm always asking people about it And I feel like I'm not always getting through what I even mean when I'm trying to ask someone else. So This is an area that I think needs development Visualize it I know I need a storyboard Who knows Dennis, uh, what are you hoping for next year? Um, yeah, what I what I find interesting is, um In the how did the triangle I talked about between the business design and technology to see How uh business or service design gets more integrated, huh into the organizations like it's not just a separate department, but if it if the How the integration works I heard this year at the conference a lot of big organizations are recruiting a lot of designers and creating in-house design teams, but Between the lines you hear that it's still designers are still in a hostile environment that Not everybody receives them with open arms and they're not it's not really integrated yet and I think One of the movements is that you see that people are putting a lot of effort into This integration and uh, yeah, I would be keen to see how this works Different organizational forms of integrating design Right. Yes. Yes. It's also about the the the scaling in different, uh, directions Of service design within organizations and if it can get uh To the level of of decision-making about policy making, uh, these kind of things Well, well, was there a theme announced for next year? I don't think so yet, right? Not that I heard it. No, okay So we'll we'll keep an eye on that and maybe uh, if there are out there will be a definitely a service design show Episode on that so we've been in for 45 minutes. Uh, thanks, Andrea. Thanks, Dennis. Uh, I hope you enjoyed it Yeah, everyone who's watching. I hope you enjoyed it too. Uh, this is the there was the second live episode I think I'll do a few more if uh, people start the Joining us like uh, like uh today um Final things final words, uh, if you haven't checked it out Of course go to the youtube channel service design show dot com slash youtube or youtube dot com slash service design show Check out some of the best episodes a few of the people who were mentioned In this live broadcast We're also guests on the show Andrea was a guest about the service experience conference Louise Downey Had a great talk at a great episode. So check it out service design show dot com slash youtube And also about if you're interested in integrating business and design There's a course out there. I've not been yet promoting it that much But it's called selling service design with confidence and it's really about how do you communicate and articulate the value Of service design in terms of business people understand. So if you're interested in that course, check out learn the service design show dot com I'll post a link in the comments Thanks again, Dennis. Thanks again, Andrea. I hope to be at the conference next year. Maybe we'll meet uh face to face It would be much better Yeah, thanks. Have a great day everybody. Bye. Bye. See you And here's the button to enter