 We don't have our names in back. Yes. Okay, good. All right. Crossbar. Crossbar. Was that it? Yes. More accurate. Okay. So my name's Madeleine Oldham. I am the Director of the Ground Floor at Berkeley Rep, which is our Center for the Creation and Development of New Work. And I am delighted to be here with these talented and lovely people talking about some new place. So can we start by just having you all tell us, just remind us which play was yours, and tell us how long it has taken for you to get your play to where it is right now. No, my name, I'm Terrence. I wrote Anacostia Street Lions. I started the play in 2015, and it was weird, and so it got kinda put away for a little bit, and so then this week, I came here and wrote a new draft of it, so it's been off and on for the past two or three years. So yeah. Hi, I'm Depeca Guha, forgive my voice, I've lost it this weekend. I found your voice. I... It's yours? I set that up for you. I wrote Yoga Play, which was a CR Crossroads Commission. I received the commission in 2015, and I thought about it for a couple of months, and wrote the first draft last summer, and actually at Berkeley Wrap, in our writers' group, informal writers' group, and then have been working on it mostly here since. Michael Mitnick, I started writing The Seagull in 2014. That was very direct, thank you, Michael. Okay, in the top floor of Playwrights' Horizons. And then in my apartment, sadly alone. Excellent amendment. Okay, so when you hear the question, why this play right now, how does that make you feel? My response to that is just why not? I don't know. Why do we go see things? Because they make us happy, or they make us sad, and they make us feel something, I don't know. I wanna go see, I wanna read a book, I wanna see a play, I wanna see a movie, and they're all equal. I just wanna be changed by what I experience. I guess, I mean, it seems like my play is becoming sadly more relevant as we go forward. So I think there's some really, some topics in it that I found this week that are very urgent to me. And so it feels like the right time for it. It seems like a time when people can kind of interpret it in a different way, in a way that I think resonates to a larger sort of picture. I think I needed to laugh, which is why I wrote the play. I kind of really needed it. And I think the play is about cultural appropriation and identity politics amongst other things. And I recognize that in this moment we're deeply seeking a need to stand by our differences and be acknowledged for our differences. And at the same time, if we don't look for what's common in this moment, we're not gonna get through it, I think. And so looking at yoga in a spiritual tradition, which counters the politics of identity politics in a way and argues for seeking a kind of common consciousness or what Unites us I think is perhaps what is speaking to this moment or at least it's what I'm thinking about. As you can see, we have some excellent diverging opinions on this panel, which is awesome. And do you feel like a playwright has a responsibility to be able to articulate an answer to that question? Or do you feel like that's someone else's job to actually say, talk about sort of a play in relationship to the current moment that we're in? I think other people do a better job of it. All right. All right. All right. For better or worse, we have a platform and we've chosen this platform to be in dialogue and in conversation with others. So I think that plays in their nature a lot of times do claim a thesis whether or not it's overt and hopefully there's enough space in that thesis for people watching to engage with it in whatever capacity and that's the nature of the form, I think, whether or not you consider yourself a political playwright but I think the situation, this political situation does feel urgent to me and I do think I am thinking about what I might do to respond myself. So I think it's very natural in this moment I am seeking a strong response from theater. Yeah, and one of the things that makes theater unique and is special when you write something that has a political angle is that you can put it up very quickly. So if you can have a direct response to something that's going on in the world and then have a first class theater like this who actually puts it up, whereas if you were to write a movie about something it'll take seven years and it doesn't mean that what you're talking about is irrelevant but that's something uniquely suited to theater but specifically what you asked about, Madeline, I don't think, you know, it's just for me at least, you just, you write it and then everyone has an opinion, that's it. I don't think I've ever heard anybody say that putting a play up is a quick process. No, it's not. I've revealed that I've been doing this play for three years but in general, a lot of playwrights do have microphones put up to the actors and write very quickly in response to what's going on in the world and you can look at theaters across the country is that people are writing in response to what's happening and that's something that I think is very special about theater that yes, it usually does take a long time but if the pieces are in place your voice gets to a public much faster which I think is probably as fast as journalism. There's, I don't, yeah, you can't write a book that quickly, 400 pages, yes you can. Can either of you speak to kind of the, because actually, I mean, that is an interesting opinion that I personally don't necessarily share just on the other side of the play development. People have processes that take us because some people are very fast, it's true. But I think sort of the mechanism of theater and how long it takes to get from the first draft of something to an actual production of something, I mean, the fastest timeline that could possibly be is maybe nine to 10 months and even that seems not as nimble as you might want to be in response to current events and I think we in the field have a lot of conversation about is the work that we're doing being outstripped by the events in the news? And so can other people sort of give us their take on what that is? Yeah, well, I think some plays become more relevant in certain, in like the political climate, like when you're writing about things that are in the zeitgeist, I kind of hate that word, but you're kind of tapping into what's going on and so the cool thing about a play is that it can mean one thing two years ago and then something happens and then the play means something totally different and so they're kind of nimble and chameleon-like in that way, people are gonna bring their own things to the play and what they're thinking about and so the play is seen in that light and so I think when you program a play you can look for certain things that kind of accentuate what's happening and it responds in that way, I think, that makes sense. I don't think we are responding fast enough. I think it is often very slow, just writing a play itself can take a very long time and then being in conversation with the theater can take a very long time and oftentimes that moment is gone and that does seem to be the reality that we're living in right now and it can be very frustrating but I think the form encourages a kind of thematic explorations that perhaps films are a little less forgiving of to think about theme and ideas and character and that depth of exploration, hopefully there's something, if there is a positive to this, that it takes a long time to get there with a play and those are the things that perhaps speak over a longer period of time so yes, that's the silver lining if there is one, I think. Michael, I just wanna say that you've exploded my brain just a little bit because I've always thought of us as really slow and the fact that you don't is amazing and seriously. No, but what I'm talking about is theoretically. Is that if you at Berkeley Rep said we're going to put a play in and we're gonna hold a slot for whatever playwright to do it, you could do it immediately. You could have a play, the question has been what is the play ready or not but it is, I'm speaking theoretically, that it is the fastest way to have an artistic response to what's going on in the world if that's what you seek out to write. Yeah, and then it does the theoretical actually become practical which is a whole different kind of worms. So as you're moving through the world in this time the election is a thing that looms large for many of us and I think feels like a different time than it did before the election and all three of you sort of started thinking about your plays pre-election. Has your thinking about them changed at all since and if so, I mean, you touched on this a little bit but if we could expand a little, that would be great. Yeah, I think this week I really figured out what the play was about and there's just this idea that like, you know, because post-election I was kind of dealing with like what am I really doing? Like, I'm playing make-believe in a theater. Like, is that enough? And so like I'm starting to think about like how I can use theater as to be an advocate and as my form of advocacy and so thinking about this play it really dawned on me this week that it's about like challenging what we're told. And so, and that seems really important right now like not just going along with the narratives that are being pushed forward but like really doing your homework and questioning the things that you might not have questioned before. And so, yeah, the play kind of opened up in that way and I don't know if I would, if I wasn't in this headspace I would have found that thread in it. And so, so yeah, it totally does. Yeah, I'm responding to the climate in that way and the play in a way that I wasn't before at all, yeah. Well, yeah, I started writing it obviously before the election and then the election is a major part of my play with the character of Alice and when I saw what was going on in the world and made very upset, it just gave me more to put into our character and luckily I knew someone who had her job in real life and so it became a conversation and I think all of us it's in everyone in this room is that what we do is we're trying to figure out not just we're not trying to tell people things we're also trying to figure out things about ourselves and what we think about the world and in writing, yeah, in writing the Segal after the election I think the only things that really changed were the jokes but they stopped being funny because it was scary. So in a way actually what I did was cut, yeah, it's true, I cut more of what was relevant out of the play because it killed the humor. Are you able to say how that, like how does that work? I mean, was it just things that didn't feel resonant anymore or I mean. I mean. How did you know what was funny and what wasn't anymore? Well, that's easy, that's the best part is if you're writing something that's intentionally meant to be a comedy I get to stand in the back of the room and listen to all of you and hear if you laugh or not. So if you didn't laugh, I cut it and then the next day I tried to think of something funnier or I asked the actors, do you have anything funnier? And then we had a conversation and we talked about their characters and would this character say that and then I tried to make the play better and so I wanted things that were intentionally meant to be funny, to get laughs and moments that I wanted to feel for lack of a better word, not funny. I mean, I guess more truthful. Pair it away because, you know, a Donald Trump joke in the middle of an important scene takes it in another direction. Well, I come from a lot of places, I grew up in India and then we lived in Russia and then England and I moved to the United States 10 years ago and I came here on a scholarship called the Frank Knox Scholarship to Harvard University and American Philanthropy basically underwrote my education in playwriting. So I have always felt deeply welcome here and I would not have my life without it and without that encouragement of my teachers and certainly in people who put their faith in me before I had written a play and so it was very, I took it kind of for better words, I took it very personally after the election. Just sort of started feeling, questioning whether I belonged here or not and what I could possibly say, you know, as a playwright who comes from a lot of places writing in this country and I think the yoga play is in a lot of ways about multiple allegiances and how you can come from somewhere but feel at home somewhere else and how important that is for our common understanding of each other and I think that sort of comes through in the play that I think your politics sort of out, the play is out you whether you plan them, plan for them too or not and I think we're outing each other constantly and in some way and I think it probably does that but it's a plea for understanding that kind of intersectionality in our souls as well as our lives and sort of recognizing that in each other that we belong in a multiplicity of places and when we do, there's an opportunity there to recognize yourself in someone else and that's what theater does. I think fundamentally we're building structures for empathy and places for belonging and I think of theater making as placemaking and that's ultimately what I seek refuge in I think for myself that it's an opportunity for me to do that and hopefully for other people to feel like they have a place when they see the play that would be the best outcome for me, so yeah. Do you feel like there is a different set of expectations for you as a playwright at all? Like do you feel a sense of sort of what the field is asking from you now to be different than what it was before the election? Yeah, I think that we wanted to see something that is relevant, it's like the theme of the panel, why this play now? So there's an imperative when something happens as a playwright, it's just a smart thing to do is to write about what's going on in the world because it makes your play more relevant and then they'll want to do it. But no, I don't know. I think I put the pressure on myself to respond and I just lost my train of thought. No, but when I start a play and thinking about my audience I kind of think about the play that I need or the play that I want to see and the characters I want to see on stage and so I put that as like the guiding principle in my plays and so I want to see black people in the future. So I write a play about black people in the future. And so it becomes this sort of like self-satisfying thing and it becomes my like how I cope with things. Like I would just say that I think there is a great place for making space and like seeing yourself and I think that's important right now to see yourself reflected on stage and whatever all the colors and layers they're in, like there's and so I put that on myself and that seems to be something that people are responding to because I think we are all really open and seeking understanding. And so yeah, so I put that on my side. I don't feel like there's some overarching right this play. I need this kind of, but I'm doing that for myself because there are plays that I need. There are things that I need to see. So it's very selfish in that way. And then for some reason, other people want to see it too. So it's good. Yes, I am asking as every few days if theater is enough. And I think and how best I can contribute, how best I can respond and is this enough? And I'm trying to think more broadly about that question as well, but I'm fundamentally interested in how a question of how we live, just how every day, what are we supposed to do? And how do you know what to do with yourself, with ourselves? And I think that that, I mean, every morning, Madeleine is not pleasant to live with. It's sort of waking up with that question. But I think if you have the privilege and the luxury in a way of having the time to ask that question, that's what happens. That's underlying everything. And I think the attraction with yoga and it's kind of this here is, the spiritual traditions also ask that question. But I think when you have the space to ask that question, it becomes the most important question. Yeah. Has any of you tried to write a play based on like a newspaper story? Like something that you read that day and was like, oh my God, I have to write about this? No. In grad school, Michael Corey once on the top of both Michael and I once made me write a song about polar bears. Ice cap smelting, it's called I'm on thin ice. It was very good, too. Wait, you have an interesting expression on your face. How did you feel about the song? Did you like it? Michael seemed to enjoy it. I liked it. I liked it, okay. I think as a grad school exercise, I did. But if you never find it of it, then I might go back to it now. Really? I mean, because part of the reason that I ask that question is sometimes people ask us, or at least people in my position and me personally a lot, kind of sometimes people will say, I read this newspaper story, this would make a great play. And I think that's really sort of challenging and I think it's interesting that that has not been a point of inspiration for any of you, really. And can you talk about if there's a reason why? Well, I don't know if I've done it that directly. I think, the interesting thing about my play is that little time capsules of what I was reading and thinking about then. And so there's like, there is that article I read on in the Washington Post and then there's the episode of Family Guy I was watching. It's all this like really weird stuff that kind of goes into this like blender. And when I sit back and look at it, I was like, oh, I know where that came from or that's from that book I was reading or that was. And so it's never that like translating the article into a play, but it all kind of goes into the mix. Well, I mean, I constantly read things that make me want to write plays, but there isn't, I don't have an impulse to go, I want to make a point. It just doesn't occur to me. It's like in grad school, the very first day I read an article about Thomas Edison. And so I've been writing about Thomas Edison for 10 years. And then through the writing of that, it's linked into now with fake news and smear campaigns and a lot of things that people would say are timely or when this thing comes out as a movie, may think as a response to what's going on, but there's nothing new under the sun. It's that we make mistakes and we make them again. And we try to fix it. I think I write towards what I don't know and what I can't see or but feel. And I think that to me is the secret, is in the secret of the play is the secret DNA. So then you can support that with scaffolding at least I can and I do a lot of research. But I think that's the current that I'm after is what is unspeakable and unknown. And sometimes it's dangerous and sometimes it's funny. Sometimes I wish I didn't know. But that's, I think the thing that I'm looking for. And part of the reason that I ask that question is a question that writers get asked a lot is where do your ideas come from? And that's a, it's just such a hard question to answer. And I think Terrence, you just articulated a really lovely way to think about it, which is I think generally true for most, it's not all writers that it's never one thing, right? I mean, it's, it's, you're sort of moving through the world with this different set of antennae and kind of bringing things in that then influence each other. Is that, am I? Yeah, I think there are so many times in life where I'm, I witnessed something and I was like nobody else in the world could do anything with that but me. Like that, I feel like the world set me up to see this because I needed to see it. Like, they're just like the strangest little occurrences and like, and also people tend to like tell me things. And like, they confess to me and they're like, I've never told anyone that before. And I was like, why did you tell me? But, and so like, and so like, and then I steal those things. I put those things into my work. And so like the, so it just comes like, it becomes like really human and. So really you're the last person they should be confessing that shit. Hey, but that's the question. I ask myself this little question all the time. It's like, am I a writer because people tell me stories? Or do I tell stories because I'm a writer? That's like my little puzzle thought. I'm never talking to you again. I'm already got this. Let's go to lunch. So we've talked a lot about sort of political response and political work. How does entertainment factor into this for you all? I think there are different kinds of plays and what's what there's so few opportunities for playwrights and so few physical buildings to put up plays that there's an imperative and it's important that plays are speaking to about what's going on in the world because that's been the role of theater since people started telling stories which immediately happened when they were able to tell each other things. But it's odd for me to think about theater as a place that only can do certain things because if you go to a bookstore, remember those, is that there are all these different sections of things that we go to to read to have fun, horror things, mysteries, fiction, nonfiction. And I want all of that to exist in the theater but people will think of it in different ways or they think musicals or even something else where really I don't understand it. It's in my brain, it's all one thing. It's that we all get together and we see something and then we have our response to it on the walk to the car. It's curious, isn't it? Because I feel sometimes that there is a tension here that the desire to be entertained is to not think. Sometimes you just wanna switch off and you turn to the entertainment to do that that there is a thing that there are different plays and plays have different functions. And I think entertainment absolutely has a function in soothing our souls, especially now. But I think plays in the form of the thing invites thought and it invites us to think and perhaps think about things that we're uncomfortable with and think about things in different ways. And I think that that's a tension that you're writing a little bit as a playwright, like how to invite thought and invite everybody in at the same time. Yeah, that's one of the, like when I write, I'm constantly thinking about the fact that it's going up in front of a live audience. And so I try to write plays that really push the medium that really utilize the fact that we're all in this room in one space together. And so like, I'm gonna fuck with you when you're in one of my plays. It's gonna be weird, it's gonna be awkward, it's gonna be fun, hopefully a little laughy, but I'm gonna hit you with like, you're laughing and then it's like, oh no, but that's not funny. Because I think that's what life is. Life is really funny until it's not, you know? And so I feel like plays should sort of reflect that. And so you're gonna laugh, but then while I got you laughing, you're open to catch another meaning. You're like, while you're uncomfortable in your seat, you get something else. And so I'm really trying to entertain and push just like use theater for what it's good for, as opposed to like writing a play that can be a movie. I try to think about the space and using those sort of the tools in the kit. What do you wish the field of theater was doing right now that is not? I think inclusivity is my big thing right now. It's like occurring to me. As like a playwright, my ultimate goal is to have a show on Broadway, you know? Like we're not, this is what I'm thinking about lately, but that's like seen as the pinnacle of your career, I guess. And so, and I find conflict in that in that I'm writing stories about my family and people I know and they wouldn't be able to afford the ticket to go and see it, you know? And so like, there's that disruption and so like how does that color my work? And so like as I'm moving forward in my career, I'm trying to think about how I can create and sort of demand the audiences that I want to see it because, you know, like I write for people to see themselves on stage and see themselves in ways that they haven't and for actors to be able to express themselves on ways that they're not always able to. And the audience and who's seeing is a big part of that. And so, like figuring out ways to get the people on the margins and not taking away this like sort of idea that it's this elite thing that we do and we get dressed up for it and how that distances people from it. And so just kind of thinking about, again creating the spaces to have the sort of experiences with the play that I'm like really seeking. Like I used to be religious as a kid and I'm not anymore. And I realized that like through theater I'm still seeking that like church feeling. Like I'm, I still want that like community. And so how I can build a community within the theater that I'm like, it's all very selfish. I was like, I need me, yeah. But yeah, it's just kind of like using it to speak to a broader sort of audience basically. I think if I could change one thing it's the cost of getting in the door. It's, I don't know how theater can remain relevant if the prices keep soaring like this. It's unreal how much it costs to go see a show in New York is ridiculous. And if you want to be relevant or be telling something then it has to compete with where else people are going to go spend their time. So in my, I think that a theater ticket has to cost the same amount as iTunes download. And I don't know how that works. But that's, if I could, you ask me if I could change one thing, that's it. I think both those things inclusivity and cost and they go hand in hand in many ways. And I think for me it's an imperative to have to see theater that is having a larger conversation with the rest of the world. And I'm yearning constantly to see the ways in which we're interconnected right now. And I would love to see more theater that focused on that because we have the internet and it's severing our connections with each other instead of doing the opposite. And we're more isolated now than we've ever been before. And we have this tremendous opportunity here to be together in this room. And despite being from different backgrounds and different places. And what she's saying is amazing because this is also the only place where they'll really, really punish you if you keep your cell phone on. But I'm saying as a joke, but it's real is that you have to turn it off and then you have to focus and I'll sit in the same direction and watch something. So even if, you know, people will get angry at you if it buzzes in your pocket because they've paid a lot of money for the ticket and they wanna enjoy the experience. But if you go to the movie theater and it buzzes, you can't really complain to someone. And so the fact is you're focused and I'm watching it in a much more powerful way simply because you're forced to be in a dialogue with the dialogue on stage. Yeah, I really enjoy having conversations with people still. It's as crazy as that is. But it's hard without your cell phone going off or that pull of attention. And while we have it, I would just, you know, like yoga play deals with the privilege and we talked a little bit about this yesterday and I like to think about how we're all privileged in some form and whenever you benefit off someone else's suffering, that's privilege. And this is something that is global, it's universal. And I think the more we see that, hopefully, you know, and that's a kind of negative example, but the more we recognize that, hopefully the closer it brings us together. And I think that's the experience that I want a sense of coming closer together. And often I feel excluded. I think either for the ticket cost or the, you know, it's an experience I have or not seeing a diversity of experience and age and, you know, class and race and ethnicity on stage, all of that. And do you feel like we live in a culture in this country on the whole that values art? No, some people do, but I mean, it would be a generalization. I think that, no, I mean, look at what's going on with the NEA, it's right there. That's your answer. Maybe art, but not artists sometimes. I sometimes feel like I'm a problem. And I am a problem, but like in another kind of way, you know, sort of it's hard to get health insurance and you don't have a structured sort of every day so people don't know how to, what to do with you or how to have lunch with you. So there's the small things, but there's also the larger questions of how you fit within a social structure that I think sometimes is difficult in the US. So I feel like artists a little bit in supporting our lives in a way, it's very difficult. I don't know, you kind of sent me into a rabbit hole with that question. I don't know what I think right now. I feel like there are people that want us to believe that it isn't, but I don't know if that is thinking thoughts right now. I mean, I think it's easier when there's something tangible in front of you and something for people to engage with and they're like, oh, that's art. But when it's in process, like what do you do with that? And you know, theater is full of people who are so great at being in process and looking at early drafts and like talking about ideas with you before they are real. And it's terrifying to share that when something solid doesn't exist yet. And I think to think about art as process is something that we all need an education about and perhaps more of an education would help us. Yeah, it's what you're talking about. It's why this now is why do we need a painting? Why do we need to play? Is that someone could say, take that money and give it to someone so they can eat. But we live for art. Art is love and that's why we live. And so if you live in a culture without love, then why are you alive? End of play. Say after that. So I do want to ask a question about sort of what I think of as the impermanence of theater and sort of what that means to each of you because when you have a film or a book or a painting or a thing that sort of can endure, that's a very different thing than, like you do have a script, but that's not the whole picture. Like the whole picture is a production that's up and running that has all the components together that you can see. Like that is the play. And why is that appealing to you? Because it's so much fun. It's so much fun to get together with other people that it's weird to use a word like vision, but you're all trying to make something and hopefully you're all trying to make the same thing. And the fact that I wrote it, and I'm the writer is no less relevant than the fact that there is a person who's full-time job is to design the set that's behind me. And that we all get together and try to make something that's the same. And when you succeed, it's one of the most powerful things and it hits you because it isn't going through a screen of light or an iPad. It's right here. So if you can nail the truth with seven people or way more than that, 30 people coming together to try to do the exact same thing, it's powerful on a nuclear level. And that's why theater is the most fun for me. Yeah, I would kind of agree with that. Because I feel like I try not to think that my play is going to change people. I feel like that's a really lofty goal. You're gonna come to my play and walk out a new person. Probably not. But I know that that capacity for change is possible in the rehearsal process and working with people on the script and things come up and you make friends with these people for this brief amount of time but they become your friends and you know them forever. And so you have these little rooms where you tell your deepest secrets and people respond and there is actual change and people discover things about themselves. And so that's sort of like this beautiful process. And so I'm also thinking about collaboration. I try to write challenges for people in my plays. I love, it's really surreal that people wanna sit around and work on something I just made up. Like, why are you doing this? This is just, I just made this up. And so I wanna put little, and so I like having people use their art to interpret my art. And so I kind of write little challenges for designers and costumers like they're gonna be hanging upside down in this scene, go. Like I don't have to figure out how you're gonna do that. That's not my job. And so you create these little spaces and it's all about the community for me. You create these rooms where change is actually possible and whether that translates to the audience, if it does, great. But it's all about the work that's being done. So yeah. Yeah, I think I'm a masochist. That's true. I think you have to be to do this in a way but the other side of that is I studied with Paula Vogel who talks about how she loves plays for their flaws. And I think that that is this form. It's full of flaws. You see all the, you see everything. Like Michael was saying, there's nowhere to hide. Playouts you, it's difficult to get along sometimes and there are challenges and like that effort I think is the effort of change and that everybody to make something with someone else. You have to change and maybe change deeply. And sometimes you don't realize how until long after the process. But I think that I love theater because of the flaws and the transitions that everybody sees and the dropped lines and the fact that it's real and it's happening. Yeah. And just that they're like, you get second chances, you know, it's terrible one night, it's over. It's done. It's gone. And no one will ever see that again. Yeah, so there's opportunity for multiple chances and you get, and with subsequent productions you get to see new people feel it and then that's done. So yeah, I think it's sort of like kind of beautiful in that way. Also the magic of actors and the actor's voice on stage and the lights and everything, you know, in here that the risk that we take every time we trust the unfolding thing in front of us is a sort of life lesson and one that I learned every time that I'm in here and I see something and I don't know what's going to happen. Do any of you have a dream project that you think is too impossible that nobody will ever do? I have a dream project. Ha ha. Yes. Yeah. Ha ha ha. I used to. I used to. And there's a, you know, I'm typical and I spent a long time, three years talking every single day about, you know, what a play should be or shouldn't be or can be or can't be. And, you know, there's certain realities that you have to deal with if you're playwright. Like if you're going to write 10 locations, the play is much more expensive unless it can be done in a non-realistic way. So I used to think, okay, what I should do is write fewer people, make the play cheaper, make the play as relevant as possible, and then it'll go to as many places as possible. But that's not fun. And also, like if you have something in your brain that says you can't do that, then you're already behind because I think when we write the best is when we're invisible. And so if something comes out, or we write something that is so seemingly so expensive, then the challenges were potentially hurting the future of the play, but we're also sending out a message saying, let's see if we can figure this out live. Why, let's do someone upside down on stage. Let's fly someone, let's have 31 locations, let's have 90 actors, and then let's all go broke, but let's do it. I think every play feels impossible to me. Every play, and we were taught that every play should have something impossible in it, at least if the whole conceit is not impossible. But I think there is the magnetism of writing a new play is something that's a little bit beyond reach, that's something that's a little bit impossible that goes beyond one's own conception of it almost. And I think that's the only reason to do it for me. And then how that translates, I don't often think about is true. I don't know how people are gonna receive that because I don't know how I'm gonna receive it myself. Would you like to share what your dream project is, or would you like to keep that to yourself at this moment? I'm gonna share it, because someone might help me do it. Yeah. There's this Afro Cuban artist named Alfredo Lam. I have this, one of the things tattooed on my arm. You're not gonna, what is that? I guarantee our plays will be two, but different. But let's do that. Let's all three of us write the same play about the same thing. But I want to, so he's Cuban and I wanna go to Cuba and like really, because I wanna really understand it before I write it. And that's why I haven't written, I've been thinking about this play for like five or six years, but I know that I'm operating from a place of not understanding. And so I need to submerge myself in his life in a way that I can't in America, that I can't in a book, you know? And so, so yeah. And what is it about this particular artist that makes you wanna write play? He's magic. Yeah. All right. And that's what we're after, I think, is magic. Yeah, it's true. Magic tricks are very close to theater, except that magic is, I think, the only thing that's even pure because if it's a good trick, a theater asks us to suspend our disbelief, magic doesn't ask. It's like music is that, you know, you could go see, I won't name something, but something that you may not dig. And then the hairs on your arms stand up is that it's magical. So if you can capture that in a play, it's very powerful. Michael is a great magician. Michael is also a great leaving us with nuggets person. So I think that's where we have to stop. I wanna say thank you so much to South Coast for putting together this amazing festival. Thank you writers. I'm keeping yours. It's framed with mine. Yeah.