 Is it the responsibility of the military alone? Is it the responsibility of everybody to keep a lot and find safety when necessary? But we shouldn't be cowards. I tell you, the banditry will only come with about three rounds of ammunition, one day a fire shot, everybody runs. In our younger days, we stand to fight any aggression coming to us. I don't know why people are running away from manu, manu, manu, things like that. They should stand and let these people know that even the villagers, they have the competence and capability to defend themselves. But our own duty is to ensure no Nigerian is hurt and we are capable of protecting the integrity of this nation. And we will continue to do it. Well, that was the defence minister months ago. But now, the Pan-European Social Political Organization, Afhenifera, has hurt Nigerians to defend themselves against bandit, warning that Nigeria is fast moving into the precipice. Afhenifera also expressed worry over the worsening security situation in the country, noting that it is threatening the corporate existence of the country. Now joining us to discuss this is head of research at the Act for Positive Transformation Initiative, Kalawalik Johnson. It's good to have you join us, Mr Johnson. Thank you. Good evening. Thank you for joining us. It's interesting that we're beginning to hear this more from leaders and not just normal leaders of thought, our political leaders. A few weeks ago, the governor of Katsina State had also come up to say that the people in his state should resort to self-help. And months earlier we had the defence minister also saying we should not be cowards that we can actually defend ourselves against this bandit. And here we are today, the Afhenifera is also calling on Nigerians to resort to self-help. What does this really mean if everybody seems to be saying the same thing? Are we really failing to win the war against terrorism in Nigeria? It'll be wrong to say that we are failed, but perhaps we can rightly put it that we are failing. Until you have the final closure in defeat, you may not be able to say that we are failed. However, with the pointers, with the indicators, clearly shows that we are not winning the war, that we need to do more. We need to come up with strategies. We need to act decisively. Unfortunately, let me take you back history lane and to clearly let you know that we didn't get here by accident. We arrived at the status what we are now, at this precipice, simply because we didn't do the right thing at the right time. My job turns me into be able to extrapolate and look into some few years to come and be able to make some work out based on present circumstances and situations. Four years ago, 2016, I remember June 12, on a national program to mark the day I was among the panelists, and I clearly told Nigeria that within the next four years, we may be entering into some very dangerous umbrella of the country. We may be having situations that may consume the country if the country fails to act at that time. Now, you would understand the fact that when you do not decisively deal with issues, issues that are not dealt with decisively in good time would always go to crisis. And when you have crisis situations in your hands, you can have a full proof solution. Every solution on the table will have some consequences and some adverse effect. Now, you need the balls as a leader at such time to take hard decisions knowing well that leadership, providing leadership at critical times is not a popularity contest. It's a contest to do the right thing. Now, I remember those days in Lagos when Basula just became the government. He took some decisive steps and I remember that everybody publicly everywhere who was being booed, some were even coughing him, but go down memory lane. Two years into that administration, he started early acolyte, practically for my country. Now, what does that tell you? You can take the decisive decision at the right time, even if it is not popular. But later, the people will come to say that you took the decision for the large amul of the good of the largest majority. So, if I understand you, I'm sorry to... Let me land on this thought, please. Clearly you will see that this government failed to take the right decision at the right time. So, it is the inaction of the government that brought us to this point. And I thread for you two incenses. The first, when we started having paakia killers, and killing farmers unnecessarily destroying their produce, rather than having an action from the government, you can see a ton of support for these agas. Clearly the president keeps supporting them and he got to a point that the target had the same as clashes. How can you call that clashes? How can you call those clashes when they go to meet people in their farms and kill them? That's not a class. That is terrorism. Now, again, we have these guys integrating into communities and running down communities, killing people, taking over some communities. You know what the government said? They call them bandits. Now, when they became notorious, taking over the highways, demanding ransom, each time they pick people, killing professors, killing people in their prime. We are the women. You will hear that the government will come out almost defending this action. Say, for example, in those days when the governor said that we need to reach the forest of elders that come to the misery so that those who are hiding, those criminals who are hiding among you to stop the credit that we can fish them out. You had an immediate release from the presidency, not just containing the governor, but defending these elders. Whereas when they kill, they don't come out to do that. However, have you seen that each time the government defend them, they grow mobiles and they become border? I don't know if the government really defends them, but I'll let you be the deciding person on that. But let's backpedal. I remember when this started and it was just pockets of violence. At the time, the Sultan of Sakoto, Alhaji Sa'ada Bubaka had said, and I called him, that these people who were engaging in this dastardly act, were not Nigerians. And there were questions that were posed as to why we would allow outsiders to come in and kill our people. That's that. We also know about the guns, the gun running around the Sahel region and how these things are coming towards the western part of Africa. We're seeing it happen even in the countries at the fringes of the Sahel. So you have already stated that if government had acted early enough, we would have been able to deal with the issue. But we're no longer there. We're here now. And where we are now seems to be worse than where we were before. So the question again is, is it still government's willingness to fight and put an end to this that is our situation right now? Or could it be that there's more to it? Now there are also people who think that we have overly politicized this issue and it's made it even more difficult for us to be able to pinpoint what the problem is and deal with it. What are your thoughts? My thoughts. Simple. See, everything rise and fall on leadership in a society. And this matters as simple. I've been opportunity to contribute to public discourse. Different for us. And I can stress back the days of warning even to take and tell you clearly is that the government has not gone enough and clearly the government is willing to win the war today. We can win the war. But listen to how, I mean to why we can win the war. Please permit this example. What exactly did we grant iPop for as a terrorist organization that we are filled to see the fact that Bandit are doing much more than that? However, the government cannot come out with the boss to lead all these guys. Yet Nigeria is the second most terrorized nation in the entire world. And guess who are those contributing to this indices that has made Nigeria the second most terrorized nation? The Bandit involved. Yet we can lead all them terrorists. Aside from that you have seeking government defending them and saying that no, they are Bandit. They are only doing business. That after all, they are not requesting to succeed from the nation. Now, such all transits will keep onboarding these guys. Perhaps in another time when we have the time, I will take you through some processes in PR that affect criminality in the society. I can take you through the operans conditionally learning by BF Skinner and the classical conditionally learning by Bandura. Because we do not have time, I'm going to push you just because my guys are saying we have to go. So with all of these things we are still talking about the problems. This solution that seems to may not be a solution. No, I am giving you a solution. Let the government go the boss to do the right thing. That's the solution. But while we wait we resort to self-help. How can we protect ourselves against people who are wielding AK-47 and some of them riding in numbers in 300s and more? How do we intend to do that if even the NDA had been raided by these same people? Is that really a great call especially coming from the Fennifera? Hello. Can you hear me? Yes, I can hear you. We cannot protect ourselves against criminal state. This is the job of the state. Now what exactly will be the job of the state? A lot of people provide their own amenities. They road in their estate. They provide electricity. They provide their water. Yes, they take taxes to the government. So what exactly will be the job of the government? The number one job of any government is the security of the life and properties of the people. Yes, you said the people should defend themselves. The folks and the ministers of defense themselves said this and he was practically cutting us cowards. That AK-47 will be running for some tough looking criminals with few AK-47. And the question I asked him then was simple. Can you go about in those places without having your escort without having the soldiers guiding you? No, he cannot. A lot of times many of them can even travel to their villages to where they come from. So clearly we cannot defend ourselves and I am also a bit disappointed in affinity. How can he be calling an engineer to defend himself? When the same person that you guys prepped up to defend you, to defend himself. When he was taking, what were they doing? Did they call me? Did they move immediately for the government to release those guys? Now what exactly did I do wrong? A lot of them they prepped him up, they pushed him to that neighborhood. Now thank God it was never unrecognized, supported that move. However when he was, I mean when the government moved against him, you were expecting groups like affinity to move and do the government immediately. But they never did. They are coming up now to say people should defend themselves. How would they defend themselves? To go by gun and also be charged for illegal. We have to go. Well Mr. Karawali Johnson, time is not on our side. He is the head of research at the Act for Positive Transformation Initiative and he's been speaking to us live from Abuja. Thank you very much for speaking with us. Thank you. All right. Thank you all for staying with us. We'll take a short quick break and bring you a report on what Nigerians or how they feel about credible elections. If they follow the electronic like the western world, I think you understand. I think we achieve a good election research. In Nigeria as a whole, all the elections we've been doing so far, people's votes don't count. That is nothing but the truth. People's votes don't count. But then if they can listen to the masses and at least carry the masses along and do what is good and do what is right, then everybody is good to go. Everything will work out fine. But whereby everybody goes in there for their selfish interest, then it doesn't make sense. Let's even get over this COVID first. After this COVID, we start thinking of, we are talking about survivor here. Yes, free unfair is all about transparency in the process. The procedures put in place by governments ensure that people's life are safeguarded while voting and that there is no cause for alarm in terms of chaos in irrespective ballot stations, whereby we've had so many cases of theft of ballot papers and all that. So all those things should be guarded against to ensure that the elections are free and fair. I don't know if it's possible to do the online voting, if it's safe to do the online voting. The ones that can come out of votes can come out. If you can do it virtually, then I think it's okay. Well, I guess security, like security level increase the, what's the name? The country security. If you increase the country security, then I guess at least during the election, things will be balanced at some point. I guess constitutional reform should be first, then online voting should be put in place. I think there should be transparency on everything. I think basically that's just all. With that, I think that's all. If there is transparency and the government should try to have the love of the people. For people to come out during election and also defend their votes. Because most times whenever you have rigging things, it's because a lot of people don't believe in the electoral system that believe rigging will always take place. Well, that's all we have for you tonight on the show. We'll see you tomorrow again on Plus Politics. I am Mary Anacorn. Have a good evening.