 Come everybody back to Segal Talks here at the Martini Segal Theatre Center, the Graduate Center CUNY at the City University in Manhattan in New York where slowly things are opening again, bars, restaurants and businesses, important businesses, construction and of course with lots of question marks, crowds are gathering outside after that long lockdown but a lot without masks, without paying attention perhaps to the distancing but it's understandable after this long, long, long time of confinement but to its full of uncertainties what will happen, the immunity is about one percent, one thing so people who have had it, 70 percent is needed for herd immunity and there are many signs from countries that reopen that numbers are going up even in America even so some politicians say no it's just because it's testing, Pence said that yesterday, the vice president but there are indications now that still we are not over it but on the other hand life in a way has to continue, theater of course is suffering, there is no end in sight for the end of the year and also next spring we do not know what will happen worldwide as we hear in France or Italy very in Germany spaces open up slowly it was 10 percent, 20, 30 percent of audiences looks of outside work but we do not know what theater will be like, look like, what we can do and what not so many, many, many artists especially in America out of work it's not a great system it's compared to many of what we hear online it's actually devastating, no ministry of culture, no support, eight, nine months it had everything cancelled for musicians, dancers, theater makers, performers and traditional revenue incomes like working in bars and restaurants also don't don't work so we really are still in a moment of of great great uncertainty and we need to find out as Jean-Luc Nossi who was on our program the pilafas said what is the value of the value of human life when does one take into account that there will be casualism or not and so we we really do not know about, we heard very, very encouraging moving and significant contributions from theater makers around the world around the globe we have now over 90 artists almost who were involved in our singing talks and today we come to an important part of the world Asia play we at least in Europe and America do not know about it's not as much on our radar as it should be all that energy innovation tradition long long tradition and everything but especially in theater and performance dance and puppetry so today we have two representatives who have tipped their toes into the new york scene a little bit govind ruben hi govind and Terence Conrad from terry and the kaz the company that somehow is a bit we will tell about moving between australia and malaysia and they are part of our our international lineup today yesterday we had the great peter shulman from the bread and puppets theater with us was in vermont normally 80 90 people are on the farm they are six or seven now and they make small performances in the forest once they use 20 30 000 people would come to their to their shows tomorrow we have tanya brugera from cuba the significant and important artists as theater artists performance artists socially engaged artists who defines activism and art and the space in between is the most significant what we can do also things you can't sell you can't buy but it makes a difference in the life of people and how to integrate meaning we have hope as either from rwanda on thursday who will tell us about the situation in a country that has survived terrible terrible times civil wars atrocities genocide and now corona is there what does it mean for a theater maker and saman amini a theater artist born in iran moved to the netherlands and created work there and it will tell us a bit about that reality but now we really focus on malaysia on governor karen so first of all thank you thank you for taking the time to to spend with us what time is it it doesn't look like noon well it's 12 p or 12 a.m now so it's basically uh uh wednesday morning uh in kuala lumpur yeah we should be fast asleep but we stayed up for this talk yeah thanks for having us by the way especially after you know such a great lineup of peter shuman tanya uh hope is either you know we we felt like the weird odd ones out so we thought we better stay up for this yeah no no i mean it is a significant you know for us to know about what perhaps is a little bit more unknown i think once it used to be eastern europe theater in poland in hong kree and all romania now we know a little bit more worlds have come closer together but now i think it is also asia that is perhaps a bit more and should be more um on our radar it is in the continent of course of of the of the future of the work and also an incredible great great tradition and hansi sleiman who wrote the good post-traumatic theater book you know uh when it came to to asia they said that's great yeah there has always been like this we have puppets and movements sounds words next to each other you know that's a great that europe is catching up you know on what we are doing but good to have it written down in a book from so you guys tell us a little bit before we come to your work um are you in confinement are you in lockdown what is the situation in malaysia when you go out tomorrow morning on the street well um malaysia has opened up um so we we started the lockdown on the 18th of march and it was a proof you know sort of full proper lockdown you could not travel uh five kilometers away from where residential address was uh this lockdown there were four major stages um each stage was about two to four weeks depending on which stage it was um and uh it was pretty harsh so there was no interstate travel there was only certain supermarkets you could go to and everything was shut of course and um and then what happened is um as of the first of june things started opening up a bit um and then um now basically sort of what they call a conditional movement control order where things have opened so you can go to restaurants you can go to cafes um but everything is operated at a sort of 50 capacity the sort of social distancing guidelines and um and and you know um and so the only sort of things that are sort of still shut uh you know sort of massage parlors and theaters so it's a great company theater finds itself in i think also by all polish friends i said that at tia varsova that the government made sure to write in one sentence massage salons and theaters will be the first one to close and the last one uh to to open and and provide really great excitement and enjoyment for everyone and relief and stress all of that yeah but there is a connection it's about the body and um one is a physical one is a mental massage yeah yeah that that is um that is so in france people had to print out permits in italy you could only go from your home to the next supermarket so even five kilometers seemed to be pretty liberal did it work how is the situation how many infections and death well today well we initially when we started it on march 18 we were can you come a little closer so we don't hear someone we had about 200 infections almost a day and around 150 to 200 infections a day and they started reducing the conditions and liberating uh for for people to go out more once it started dropping below 100 as of today over the last week we've had between five to 11 cases a day really yeah and uh and it's been very well monitored and controlled until today and yeah so most businesses are back but there's still um everything's operating at 50 percent wherever you go you need to register every business needs to take your temperature get your your your if you walk into a restaurant you walk into supermarket you walk into to get your haircut they need to take all your details uh they take your temperature if you go into a business yes they go they have a heat sensor in there at the um entrance yes some places even take your photograph together with your temperature while some places just take your your details and your with your with your national ID number so this is like an awesome wells this sort of wet dream for every for the key everybody there's information about everyone that's recorded down who's going where so this will help with the tracking if in case there's a new case they can literally identify where the cluster starts and who's exposed to it so it's so they will be able to track and and quarantine people in case there's a new cluster so that's what they've been doing and so far it's been working very well for us hmm so that's uh that's quite stunning so kind of Orwellian surveillance uh state of the human is like almost like yeah glass you can see everything what he or she does where you go what you do and it's controlled can be traced that's a very thing right to control something like this they had to they had to resort to such draconian uh system which we which we would never allow but but it has reduced the number of it has succeeded in the cases succeeded yeah yeah as of today we had the highest number of recovery there are more people recovered than there and there's only a few hundred people there's only 200 people recovering from it and there's only been 11 cases today so yeah it is a success story even though we may not agree with the method so to speak yeah what what what a situation yeah it's such a living living in contradictions so you can now go out with mask whenever you want and drive around so tell us a little bit for theater artists in malaysia what did uh covid mean did you get support did shows go on did rehearsals go on what what's what what is what so the theater industry like i said together with the massage industry has come to a complete halt you know which is which is which you know it's it's quite shocking and tragic and you know and and prior to that the arts um you know if you look at it from a malaysian sense um you know the arts contributed to about you know uh 11.2 sort of billion to the national economy which is about two percent of the economy of KL incredible yeah super high number yeah and it sort of provided about 86 000 jobs or so and this was a survey done by an organization here in malaysia and um when everything shut you know obviously um some venues uh you know still sort of trying to support the staff but almost 70 percent of arts practitioners have lost their jobs and in a place like malaysia where um you know until very recently there hadn't been too much sort of grant support or support from the government and this has changed in the last few years where um slowly the arts have been recognized as a formal industry and people have been sort of putting money towards the arts not much but it is a start so the thing is a lot of the theaters a lot of the venues a lot of the artists so this was all kind of sort of a very capitalistic sort of function in how things went about so you know response that functioned within theaters would support the performance of ticket sales you get corporate sponsors so that's kind of how it sort of sustained itself for the longest time and because of the pretty much the complete halt of any sort of performances um these incomes have not been able to flow and therefore um of course you know people have literally just stopped and have been living off savings there have been lots of initiatives um that have appealed to the government to now kind of try and support artists the Malaysian government has come up with a couple of schemes to sort of help not artists but to help sort of Malaysians to kind of cope with what's happening and I think you know the artists are sort of lumped with everybody else and um and and so this is sort of what's been happening um to the art in general um yeah so it is a pretty dire situation um I think um obviously everybody is still looking to see how we come out of this and and also we're very interesting to see how many companies actually survive or you know you know be able to start again um and some companies have started running online donations and online funding campaigns to sort of help sustain their venues you know they've had buy a seat program and people have been supporting but you know it's it's nothing compared to uh what is actually affecting the entire industry um you know at this particular stage so um at the moment are there any theater performances anything going on you are aware of nothing there's no one of the main uh rules of this of this control movement control order which they've done recently is that uh there's still no no gatherings of people above 20 which is still not allowed uh they've not they've only begin and religion is a big part in Malaysia so even religious places are now only being opened so no theater no performances no entertainment outlets nothing completely zero still so you can't go to the church you can't go to the mosque you can't go to the temple so everything is sort of you know any any places where you can gather is still pretty much shut um and so that's kind of what's happening of course um I think a lot of artists have sort of responded and taken some programs online and have been kind of performing and creating online content and sort of diversifying and kind of adapting but um you know I you know we can't speak for how successful that has been in terms of financial remuneration um so yeah it is a very you know sort of it is a hard time for most artists in Malaysia and and therefore um you know and but the good thing is and this is the one sort of I think I don't know if you can say or you can call it positive but because um this is sort of become this point where suddenly everybody um can see the flaws in the system everybody can suddenly point out that oh look this isn't working we've contributed this much but there haven't been any formal support and we've been doing all of this with corporate private support and but yet we are contributing this much to GDP and so therefore for the first time in a long time there has actually been very open discussions from the industry personnel and members of the government like right to the top so very recently there was a meeting with the Ministry of Finance and Arts Practitioner something that was almost unheard of five six seven years ago so this was um uh you know imagine a group of artists being able to sit down with the Secretary of Treasury you know from America and sit down and go like we need funding and therefore I think what this has pointed out is a significant lack of gap in in the support for the arts and and therefore the government have now heard you know and have seen where these these gaps are what becomes of it we don't know but it is a start in kind of pointing out look this is the areas in which we need support and these are the numbers to prove how much the arts in Malaysia and the arts in Malaysia is not just performance it's crafts it's handicrafts it sort of traditional performances other subtle products and you know so so it is a huge range that actually contributes to the cultural economy of the country and it also sort of puts us in this sort of unique sort of place where you know we are a tourist destination and I think when people come of the art you know whether it's through song whether it's a traditional form of dance and and performances that there are lots of cultural shows that happen and also you know the contemporary theater scene but I think the the tourism industry has really suffered from this and we do make a lot of money from tourism as artists and a lot of artists actually are kind of contribute to that factor and I think these are now gaps where the government have started to look at and and hopefully something positive happens post you know corona so another interesting thing in Malaysia is also that just before the coronavirus pandemic spread to this part of the world there was there was a new government installed in Malaysia which is within a couple of weeks of being installed they had to deal with this so they never really got to actually get comfortable within their their roles and they had to deal with this pandemic which they have done like I said magnificently well compared to a lot of countries around the world but seeing that when they came in that they started seeing that a lot of people lost jobs a lot of industries had to shut they and people they had to hear from each and every industry and that gave a very unique meeting as Govind was saying between the arts practitioners of Malaysia and the Minister of Finance and Steam and he got to hear first hand from the arts practitioners on how how they have been have had their income totally decimated by this pandemic how people theater people who own theaters had couldn't continue to manage these theaters couldn't afford to make their rental pay their staff electricity bills basic stuff like that because they couldn't get any seats they couldn't get their seats filled so this is a very unique opportunity which was afforded to the arts sector in Malaysia by the thing and they got to hear and not only talk about Malaysia I mean sustaining through through this COVID pandemic but also beyond which is a very which is a conversation which we rarely get because in in Asian countries and especially in Malaysia what a lot of people talk about the arts they usually refer to traditional arts not contemporary arts even though we have a burgeoning contemporary arts scene and a lot of government funding grants goes towards the preservation of traditional arts traditional artists traditional performances and then this during this time a lot of contemporary artists and they are a lot got to voice out on their needs on how they on on the sustainability and also growing after the COVID pandemic of the contemporary arts scene so that was an opportunity which would I doubt would have arose would have never arose if if COVID pandemic had not taken place so there was a unique situation which came about also incredible incredible to hear that you'd use the word magnificent government reacted here in America of course it's a devastating thing the richest country in the world is not able to do what Malaysia is achieving of course different circumstances you know five million people taking New York subway every day and all of it but still you know it's just stunning to see how forms of government really make a difference and the same is also for theater forms of theater the way it's produced supported also produces results are different we are looking at you know what what contribution theater makes and what works and how it should go on for you as theater artists how did you experience this time of of lockdown what did you do how what how how did you deal with it well I think you know when it comes to we in a very very unique situation frank in a sense and I know this sounds funny and a bit insane but so we like to call ourselves storytellers right and and and we told stories and that's how we started and you know like most stories most of it start in comedy and and so that was how we started 10 years ago we made comedy and and and we we started doing quite well and and and very soon there was lots of companies that basically said could you do something for our Christmas party or do you know can you do these big dinners and whatever not and you know whilst we never put our name to that formally those were sort of project that they call corporate projects that then paid you a significant amount of money that then sustained you to do your art projects and for a lot of companies in Malaysia that's kind of how it's always been sustained but one of the things that happened with one big project that we did very early on Terry very brilliantly said we should use the profits to start an industrial laundry and so we actually started an industrial laundry so as a company we we we we sort of washed clothes for hospitals hotels and gyms and and that business sort of grew over the it was a pretty simple business dirty clothes come in we wash dry and iron and send it back out and we got to make our art while the money just kept rolling and so because we did that and that business was sort of basically how our debauchery was sort of funded we got to do whatever we wanted to do and try out whatever we want to try and and you know so we made it up it's a public theater in new york right yeah yeah the public in new york pretty funny story but but it also meant that because we never relied on government funding and because we we never relied on on sponsorship or any of those capitalistic measures to sustain ourselves um it just allowed us to kind of try new ideas create new things and um and funnily enough when the kovat so i don't mean to laugh but when the kovat crisis hit because we are washing for hospitals we became essential services so the government paid us promptly i mean we lost some business on the gyms and the hotels but essentially we were sustained because we washed for about eight or nine hospitals across the country and so we've been going to work every day and this period and so one of the things we also as a company we were also we also very lucky because a few years ago our big break sort of came when we had an idea for a project and we managed to get into the pitch new works at ispa which is the international society for the performing arts that's how i know rachel and through that network i guess our north american uh sort of exposure grew how about the project tell us a little bit about that project so that project was called skin um it was a work about true stories based on human trafficking um and that project uh we we we made in collaboration with the human rights organization in malaysia called kanaganita and an australian artist ashley dyer um because there was a there's a huge i mean you know this is 2015 2016 and it's still the case but malaysia has a huge number of migrants foreign migrants who are a big part of our workforce and a lot of them are undocumented and therefore we we never realized how many undocumented migrants there were until you know a couple of really unique situations pointed it out and then we started to dig in a bit more and we spent two years researching the subject so the final work was essentially a sort of work where an audience sort of gets processed we take their names we they sign a sort of a waiver a liability waiver they hand over their phones their wallets they fill in a questionnaire they get weighed they get you know sort of tested they do a physical test they come in they we do an interview with them and we decided they're good enough to watch the show and then some people don't get to watch the show some people get to watch the show but they get to watch it in sort of very different ways and then everybody gets huggled into a shipping container and they see this sort of work in contemporary dance happened between two shipping containers so you know lined up side by side and halfway through the piece one of the shipping containers start to move and half the audience get dropped off in a different part of the city we traffic off the audience and and they have to find their way back with no ID no money no cash while the other half of the audience gets treated to sort of champagne nuts cheese and sort of pretzels but the idea behind the whole thing is to sort of examine the sort of privilege that we have and what happens when we take away control and then of course at the end all the groups of the audience and that end up back at a sort of post-show gallery space where the human rights organizations that have participated are there and and people have a conversation about what just happened and through that they actually get to learn about you know sort of how that experience and how they felt and then they get to talk to you know sort of real refugees real migrants and kind of go like that go well that was my story so that was a project we did in 2015 we pitched it at this bar and it since sort of traveled to like five different cities in January we had a major breakthrough with it coming to New York but you know post-covid I don't know how you know we're going to do a show where people can sit crammed into a shipping container but you know it's not for any time soon but yeah so I think through through that network we started to sort of grow and and in January when we were there one of the things that I said to Terry when we got back I said look we are in a very interesting position of privilege because we run this laundry that basically means we we don't have to make art to make money and I do think now that we are at this cusp of actually sort of through ISPA sort of really examining why we're doing what we're doing so now we're 2020 being the sort of new decade you know we've been operating for 10 years and we've put this next 10 years to come so the main idea was actually that we should take a break from the art because there's got money coming in we're going to sustain ourselves but we're going to start to refocus and realign you know if we were going to tell this story in New York how are we going to do it where do we refocus and recent our art making practice and you know as we were doing that and as we were kind of kind of dropping out of kind of making immediate projects COVID hit so it was a very unique experience for us folk during COVID because we had decided in January that we would take a break to focus on creating work and what will define us for the next few years so we had a literally turned down work for 2020 cancelled projects we even turned down a grant to which we would do in Malaysia because we said that our idea is that we didn't want the grant we didn't want to create continue to create work just because we had a grant we wanted to create work which we would be which would define Terian Dekas and define the next decade so in January in February COVID and I said now we started drawing up the projects we would had and in February we sat down and every day we were working and then COVID happened and so then and then for us it was just oh wow was this like did we will we clap all year in that so we were literally during the whole period of COVID what we did every day almost we just sat down every day we went we worked we just kept on writing kept on figuring out stories but talk walk us through a day how would a day look like that in COVID you go in the morning you go to your business and then you see the day looked like in Malaysia I would tell you how the day looked like because as COVID told me we ran a laundry so we had permission to go out of the to to our office every day so we had a letter that allowed us to drive through yeah what time did you go out to the laundry work in about 11 o'clock in the morning pretty late and then we will be there the four or five hours driving there would be insane because there will be no one on the streets there was no cars we would go through two or two or three police roadblocks which was meant to deter people from going for traveling and meeting people and then we will go to we will end up there literally the streets will be that empty and all you would see is probably ambulances enduring the first few days first few weeks of this COVID pandemic here and then we will work for about five or six hours just drawing up structures talking talking on what we wanted like this story like so you went to the laundry business that's your art office is there we watch people working and you work inside if you're a two-floor factory and the top floor has pronged floors so it's a rehearsal space come open space office so if we do rehearsals there in normal times it'll be after five when the laundry staff have gone back the office staff and then we move all the chairs to the side and it's a big many people when we when the first time you came to New York and you were in the public and telling everybody about this nobody believed us until they actually came to Malaysia and they wanted to visit the laundry and the office so if anybody's watching this here in Malaysia you're welcome to come visit us yeah you can watch us work and yeah you can come you'll be grateful to meet anyone from anywhere in the world to see and meet new friends okay our audience let's all go and visit yeah come to Malaysia we'll take you around but the main aim of it was that we continue to work through it because we don't have papers at the wall you yeah and on the table you have photos so what are you thinking about what were you thinking about we were using even a monopoly set you know the monopoly set has all the different pieces so we were using that to like okay with these characters to work on movement like we use anything we could get our hands on like everyday stuff you know and it's okay we need to define each character so that we were using this we drew a room like the stage on a huge ping-pong table and we were working on movement and all this so every day it can be it can be structured it can be just us working on movement language it will last a couple hours until until we got mentally tired so to answer your question Frank at the moment what we're doing is we're writing a new play and this this play was basically an idea that we had for quite some time and recently in New York in January we we managed to meet some really interesting commercial producers who saw our work at the public so so it's a potential commercial endeavor that's going to start off Broadway whenever that is so whilst nothing is confirmed or happening or moving forward we thought we'll just finish up the structure and get going with the script will you talk about that what the idea is or is that too well it's sort of still harsh harsh at the moment but I'll give you just what it is it is playing with the audience playing with the audience literally if if they hear something and if they see something which are in contrast which would they believe so if you were to tell somebody you did something but they saw somebody else do it which would they believe more and it's hearing more powerful than seeing so it's we're playing with a lot of ideas in that sense we don't want to give away too much but the idea is the idea is if you hear something first and then later if you watch it which is something in contrast which will stick out in your mind more and literally we realized and we've tried it with people we actually did it and we realized that it depends in whatever you hear or see first sticks with you so it's a very unique experience yeah the long story short to sum it up maybe in a long line we're basically we're trying to reinvent the who done it so it's it's it's a murder mystery that actually happens to an you know it's that in Manhattan it's about a New York family that you know and it's a it's a very diverse class so it's sort of you know that the protagonist white male is married to you know Asian person that is the you know African-American cop there's also the Mexican housekeeper and so we're basically trying to have a conversation about the American cultural structure but again within a who done it and to also kind of really complicit the audience into kind of going like what are your bias what are your biasness from when you see what you see what you hear what you assume so that's you know based on you know which is also sort of a bit about what our show and the public was about which is called Made in America it's about this idea of a country that's actually made up of so many subfections of cultures of people and you know and you know like even going to New York it's a really fascinating thing for the two of us when we first came there like you know you take you walk two blocks to the to the to the to you know to the north and suddenly you realize the whole different suburb is a whole different community so you know and everything is so subfection that is very interesting so I think you know and you know that's the idea I think the thing which affected us the most is that especially when we came to the first time to New York in America about five years ago yeah 2015 is that a lot of people they don't realize Americans don't realize how much of their culture is is exported throughout the world and how much we people understand from the music to the arts to the poetry to the movies to to even even to the politics to the social dynamics which we all we all which we consume on a daily basis basis through news through social media through the newspapers you know through through entertainment and when we get there it really feels to a certain extent which is quite interesting it's it's like heading back to Rome you know like like a thousand years ago you knew Rome was the center you know and everybody knew what Rome was and when you got there you go oh wow you know and that was the kind so this next show further explores that idea and through a through a racial social perspective on on what we see especially from the outside because sometimes a lot of people don't get out what we see so we thought and many people found our views on stuff especially on the show we did especially in the in the show we did in the public so once that was very I mean it was accepted we thought oh wow we should continue down this route to explore that and also it's that also very interesting thing like Terry was saying this idea of Rome where you seek sort of validation like you know like you know like Chris Hemsworth was not really Chris Hemsworth until he did Thor or you know Kate Blanchett became Kate Blanchett after Elizabeth and sort of so I mean you know with all the respect it's amazing actors in their own right in Australia or Malaysia I mean you know wherever they are but people people come to America to seek fame fortune in this idea of the American dream you know and I think that's very interesting like it's it's in fame that I know that Rick Perry is the energy secretary but I don't really know who's the energy person in Malaysia like you know like and you know or or or you're really upset about badly divorces education policy but you kind of go with the education minister in Malaysia but because you know we consume so much American news and you know case in point and this is something that we said you know it's so unfortunate that one African-American had to die in Minneapolis and the whole world is protesting like if that person you know if that happened in Australia or happened in the UK the impact wouldn't be but anything that happens in America trickles down the rest of the world which is why also there was this insane you know leap of excitement and hope in 2008 and this sort of great despair in 2016 because I think the rest of the world have this sort of invested idea for America to work and I don't know why that is or but it's been the greatest marketing campaign since the 1950s just after world war two America through popular culture it's the same reason we shout for Rocky against Ivan Drago it's the same reason we felt like Neil Armstrong was Malaysian like you know it's because America has sold us this idea of a better place the greatest nation on earth and you know and therefore we sit down and we go yeah what are you doing like you know you know like hard fail like this is the thing like you know we want to come and you know explore or make you know do whatever and you know and as I said like you know as a company we're not very popular in Malaysia because most of our work are international but as soon as we do something at the public not only do we get recognized in Malaysia but all of a sudden we're important artists in Australia and you know like we've been doing the same work for the last 10 years one project in New York and all of a sudden like you know so it is it is very interesting why America you know why America the the America succeeding is very important the America leading is very important and and we don't know specifically why that is because we've bought the product and so we want the product to work so I think that for us you know especially when we sit down and go like how did we thought this COVID crisis you know this is insane amount and you know and that kind of you know so I think I think the idea of this is sort of what that project is about and we're still kind of kind of developing it and hopefully we get to show the producers something early next year when we go back there we go like this is the white paper this is the draft script and then the other project that we're currently working on is the obviously you know skin which we've spoken about so the human trafficking project and we we're developing that for a sort of semi-permanent sort of installment in New York as well so these are the two big projects that we're working on that's interesting though you're investigating reality the class race that kind of Kimira the Fatima Ghana as a Hannah Arendt side of America and there's kind of a imperial cosmotolitan cosmopolitan supremacy of New York City you know that still is the is the measuring stick and when you look closer you know you say what's going on here you know and and maybe you see even clearer from the outside what is there yeah I think a great way to look at it is that even when you say the word imperialism you said for the last hundred years or even thousands of years victory would be marching your your your your troops into into another nation you know today in a world of in today's world of capitalism is when your music when the McDonald's or Starbucks opens up your corner and and and you don't know what is the local culture anymore is that that's what you said right I want to have a coffee in the Starbucks I want to have a McDonald's burger and you go it doesn't matter which part of the world you are that's what you know and that and that's where that's when you know they have conquered the world or conquered you know the country the mind I think you know yeah and there's something is to be said for a local culture I mean it's a big world and they'll shut the Starbucks next to a traditional coffee shop or tea house sinkers many many rooms but how how tell us a little bit about theater you said we are not so well known here tell us a little bit about the theater scene in Kuala Lumpur how does that look like how is it organized who goes what are the companies okay so um so the thing is Malaysia is a very complex country when it comes to sort of cultural diversity so there's sort of three major racial groups so the Malays um they are uh but they're basically the Malays make up about 70 percent of the population and then you have the Chinese who are about 26 percent um sorry about 19 percent and then you've got the Indians who are about six percent and then you've got sort of like other pockets of races so again similarly the theater is divided into those sort of language streams as well so there's Malay theater and this is divided between traditional and contemporary um traditional may take up many forms of sort of puppetry to sort of Malay you know traditional classic Malay style Bangsawan theater they call it um sort of poetry sort of um you know and also different styles of music and then there's contemporary Malaysian Malay theater which sort of uses a bit of blends between traditional Malay and also sort of contemporary western theater and style for techniques and then you've got traditional Chinese theater which is sort of anything from Cantonese opera to sort of Mandarin plays and then also you have Indian classical uh and sort of Indian contemporary and then of course in urban areas like Kuala Lumpur and Penang there is this sort of uh pockets of contemporary English theater um you know and and and and when when I guess anybody comes into Malaysia I think that sort of to tourists to expats to sort of the urban communities the contemporary English theater sort of what gets the most sort of eyeballs and whatever not but that's very um city specific urban specific Kuala Lumpur and also maybe Penang up north which is the other big city and then they're sort of little pockets very recently um over the last 10 years of course the contemporary scene has started growing so obviously this you know with the internet and so on and so forth and with marketing and then sort of theater becoming so what used to happen in the sort of mid 90s uh late 80s mid 90s um there were very few full-time practitioners so there were people who'd be lawyers during the day and then theater performers in the evening but over the years um it's become more and more a sustainable industry because there's been a growing audience which as I said earlier capitalistically sustained the industry so more and more younger people um as as Malaysia sort of evolved into a sort of a more of a higher income society um more I guess younger people could suddenly you know perform or act because they've they've got sort of families to support and so lots of people diving into the industry had sort of grown the industry started to grow um theater theater courses started appearing in universities and all of this happened in the sort of late 90s early 2000s and it sort of grew so as of now they're good about 50 or 60 sort of really interesting contemporary theater companies that occupy the city area and a lot more sort of cultural organizations and and and and societies that sort of do classical performances so that's roughly the diaspora um and then of course there are the big venues that then program the smaller companies and so that is also a business and and in and Finth 2009 or 2010 um Malaysia started sort of first big international arts festival called the Georgetown festival which is in Penang and so that was started as part of the when Georgetown which is the city up north was awarded the world heritage status because it was a heritage site and with that UNESCO heritage status they decided to have an arts festival which actually grew into one of the biggest most vibrant festivals in the region and so through that festival a lot of big names started coming to Malaysia there was an aspiration for Malaysian artists to be part of that festival because you're looking at people like Royce the naval people at city lobby people people like Akram Khan were coming to that festival and performing and so suddenly you know it was a destination and because Penang is an island it was kind of you know so and the festival took up the entire month of order so every August you know all of Southeast Asia would sort of come to Penang and suddenly you know it was the place to be and there was a there was a great excitement and you know and the festival celebrated its 10th anniversary last year and it was going to be another big celebration this year before COVID so you know I think that sort of where we're at you know so 10 and 20 years ago it was sort of a part time industry with a very few key players so we're doing it full time now we have an international festival we we now have I guess a cultural organization that is an armed a government armed that actually got formal funding for the contemporary arts artists are being sent to arts markets so you know it's a very growing and you know burgeoning industry which has come to a sudden halt at a time when it was really growing really pushing the boundaries really trying to ask people about you know we are here we are making stuff and we you know and people are seeing it and we are contributing we need more support and that was exactly where it was as an industry as a market and and you know then it's and you know then obviously you know it sort of stopped but F Terry said I think this stop comes at a very interesting time because now the screaming has gotten louder people have sort of pointed out look at what's happened and I think this new government that has sort of taken over in the last few months are actually I don't know if they're paying attention or not but they've taken meetings that's a vibrant energy that's so fast a change towards theater and performance which is good sign for any society you know when it flourishes when it is respected when people go something is working and join life celebrating life joining joyfully in the suffering of others as we say is why theater is important and and so we all should go and visit Malaysia come to the George Trump festival see your work and not perhaps just focus on our European knowledge of where to go when you want to to see the both of you you have a I think a connection to Australia and that that's where you went to school but tell us why did you want to do theater what moves you what keeps your motor running why theater and not just the laundromat well I mean I don't think you can be cool laundromat people you know but no I think so sort of my personal story is I was doing law and my mom said I'm not paying for a law degree that you're going to half do if you want to do art go to a proper art school and I went to the Victorian College of the arts in Melbourne and so that was kind of where my Australian journey sort of started but I had met Terry in when I went to college before going to Australia and like I said we're storytellers and we used to tell funny stories to each other all the time and then suddenly I sort of went to a theater school and and I would you know sort of lent a couple of theater tricks when you want to go to a theater school you go to Australia well it was cheaper than going to the UK or the US because there's nothing in Malaysia where you would go or at that time there wasn't a formal course whatsoever yeah at that time so this was early 2000 there was nothing which you could go and say look I'm going to go study acting or I'm going to go study at this course there was nothing at that point which which which had been formalized in the education system or any universities today there are a lot of universities and colleges which do which do offer courses in the arts from directing to writing to acting but back then in when we when we when we finished our old levels and now we're coming out of high school we literally there were options with either you you go find a job or you go study which is something reputable unlike that I had to study to be an accountant so it was it was a very very to tell to tell your families and your friends that you wanted to do the arts was literally saying oh you're going to be a bum for the rest of your life literally so it was a very different mindset back then when we first started and literally it was not so long ago right that is yeah I'll tell you a really funny story when we first started putting up our shows I was working literally in for this for this company and I would every time my boss would sneak out Govind will be waiting in a cafe downstairs I will run down we will start writing scripts and everything and then he will call me it's where are you and I'll say I was in the washroom I was out and I'll run back up go to work and then I will come back down within half an hour and continue writing together with him while he peeps the story together so it was it was it was and we thought we would start doing the shows we will do it we will do it on the weekends and after work and then literally we ended up with the public theater yeah seven years later so you are I think turned out we were quite funny so I think that was a good thing and I think you know people started liking what we were putting up but I someone did ask me once like how did you get started I said we have no idea we just did something we were passionate about so yeah funny also serious your work it's a great you know mixture look at the world of how you represent the world and how you see it and I think I think and you know and I think a lot of people are sort of really you know I think I've been on a lot of talks over the last few months a few weeks actually about what's going to happen where things going to go and look I mean you know I mean I don't know about other artists but if I were to make an educated guess I think we are going to have around the world some of the best theater in the next three years correct because everybody has sat back and started to think and started to you know to instead of just jumping from script to script or idea to idea they sat back and actually started putting everything down and tell us what did you find thinking what what did you what do you feel why do you do theater what did you find out in these two months of confinement what is it exactly it went through your minds a very interesting thing is that people ask us to say like how are businesses going to survive how are theater companies going to survive how is arts going to survive and Govind and I have always believed this arts will find a way and as Govind said we will see we strongly believe that that the best a lot of good art will start coming out in a couple of months to next year it's a very simple thing is that not everybody may not survive this period which is true I mean when I mean survive I mean economically whether they can continue to do work but also through that a lot of people will find opportunity smaller artists who have who are now have a voice to actually to actually they will have new audiences listen to them because a lot of older artists have moved on and you know couldn't sustain creating work so it when when when one door closes another door opens and also just to put things as a sort of example kind of case study for the thing one of the things that we did in these two months was actually look at examples in history where something like this have happened you know have happened in different sort of industries and one of the really interesting sort of industries that we look at was the aviation industry so now in nine in nine after 9 11 there I mean it's not obviously a sustained period but after 9 11 there was a serious kind of change to the aviation industry all of a sudden people were afraid of flying and airlines thoughts crashed and suddenly going to the airport was a whole new experience there were metal detectors there were security checks you had to go through TSA in America and all of the other little things across the world and this affected the entire world so now you're no longer spending 45 minutes in the airport you're spending three hours what happened from there if suddenly every airport over the next few years became a shopping haven because people were spending more time in the airport so retail started opening up one of the other things that sort of also happened is the budget airline industry all of a sudden people were flying without baggage without you know without food so the airline industry had to adapt so you know people 10 years on people were flying more than ever but you had created a very different kind of consumer someone who didn't need any of the frills someone who you know the thumb airlines went down thumb airlines had to do all these tiered economy whatever whatever and thumb airlines just you know was like you know ryan air or easy check so you know I had in baggage became a luxury so you didn't have to go through checks so we what what it is it afforded opportunities for budget airlines and so a lot of things changed overnight and I think so I think you know looking at that case study it was a very interesting thing because it you know so while this may seem like a dark and gloomy period actually it is a very exciting period of what art might look like in a few months and I think we've spent us few years and you know I think we've spent the last few months really thinking about well if we do this show or any type of work from here on in like what are we missing what is the new consumer going to be like now my dad knows how to watch things on his phone he never knew how to do that but now he watches youtube videos and online streaming things like nothing so you've got a new consumer that you've got to compete with like why should I come out and pay 60 dollars for something that you know I can watch Netflix at home so there are lots of these new questions which are coming up and a lot of grants that are coming up from different countries about digitizing making things more whatever which are all very responsive but I think a lot of artists some have jumped onto that opportunity some have started using that to kind of create online archives or whatever not but one of the things that we also firmly believe in is that there is nothing like life theater as well you know which is you know if you look at the airline industry the big people still want to fly people still want to fly in luxury and there's nothing like sitting in business class or whatever you want to call it you know so in that thing you know like you know nobody you know no online thing is going to be seeing power already seeing life or you know no virtual picture is going to be like seeing a Picasso in front of you or you know no sort of online video is going to look like a peanut-bous company does you know and therefore I think people are always going to go to live events but what we're going to have to deal with is like a whole spread out of society who have now become consumers of content and that nevertheless you know you're looking at somebody's got to create that content and that is the artist so there's going to be a whole lot of new content a whole lot of new artists creating newer kinds of works that means the older more established artists or whatever not are going to have to look at that and kind of go not talk that or whatever but kind of respond to that and adapt to actually you know which is what is so exciting about you know when they find the vaccine or whenever that is and you know we can all go out without a mask and make out again um you know that is what is you know so exciting for us and we're sitting there okay do we want to be part of that excitement or not so let's sit down and make the most exciting show to to be able to why do you to come back to it why do you do theater why do you why do you do what's your goal why do you do it do you want to answer this okay well um so our as I said like we like to tell stories and we found out and you know and my background is I graduated as a production designer so I do lighting and set design and I guess the key principle of set and lighting design is you know it's sort of how you how do you know you're designing the viewing hearing experience for the audience and because we started with that you know you know and when I sort of spoke about conceptual ideas that I always came from a design point of view and that design point of view really meant if we want to tell stories right in the middle is who we're telling the story to which is the audience and when the audience wants to hear the story you does you know genre doesn't matter it can be art it can be theater it can be song it can be dance and and it can be how you place them where you place them whether in a shipping container or in the middle of a cafe or in a bar or in a black box theater and I think that became the most exciting thing because what we were creating or what we like creating and what we'll always create is what we call active theater that's the term that we coined but essentially what it means is that we want to activate the audience they're not passively sitting and watching something you're actively involved where things happen to you and around you and you're immersed in the story and it's being told in a 360 degree sort of viewing pot and I think when our audiences come out and they go you know and they go I've never seen anything like that or I've never heard that story told in that way like I think that sort of what makes it so much fun and why we do what we do so I think you know and the idea of being able to tell a story honestly and truthfully in a very clever way that sort of I guess why we do theater hang on the way we do it yeah you can watch a movie you can hear a song but through theater whether it's musical theater dance you can actually get to you get an experience so that is one of the things which I've always found challenging as a as when you create a work and when the audience responds because they're there they're seeing you in this creative process and they're experiencing it through life so and there are moments when you get something so perfect in theater and you go wow it's really amazing when you're there for that with your audience so it is an experience which is it's it's unique and unlike any other form of media which you can tell the story through is it's your political is it political theater what you do or uh no I think well look I always keep telling them whether it's the work about human trafficking whether it's the work that pressures the form of government I think yes the works have sort of crossed those lines but we always just call it you know we kind of do it through humor so you know whether it's an observation about America whether it's about interviewing you if you're good enough to watch my show I think there is everything we look at I think you know like some I think like our favorite art form is stand-up comedy and you know if you look at you know if you look at comedians like Chris Rock or Dave Chappelle or Jerry Seinfeld I think there's some really point and you know interesting social observations that if you break it down there's really interesting political and social commentary and I think using that we always feel humor if disarms disarms a lot of people but also because a lot of our work as I said because the audience are the center of what we want to create around it always sort of encapsulate them their fears their inhibitions into the project so you know so for something like that to work you've got to not just appeal to one or two you've got to kind of actually include everyone in and I think humor often is the best way to do that and I don't think we are political at all I think when we decide on a story it's because we think it's a great story and we have a unique way to tell that story and people can say it's political they can say it's funny they can say but I think it comes into the heart of our challenge is telling a good story and finding a good way to a unique way for the audience to experience that story that has always been our challenge and in whatever endeavor we undertake to speak. It's quite powerful you know let's look at it closely to say use humor create a story audience enjoy they experience that is as you call an active theater that they are it resonates with them and that you say be independent as you guys do you know work with the governments and try what it happens but be independent so you can really do what what you do is the joke will be you live above your circumstances you know your laundry about is your circumstance but you live above it but in a good way and and that you also you know point out that in a way it is an engagement in a world that has business related and side and the idea of stand-up comedy which is interesting because it's an individual experiencing the world in a very individual way and it gives you very very private often intimate moment painful moments and but they are funny and they are honest and they are often quite quite quite disastrous stories and but then everybody gets to access it as well I think that's one of the things which we often pride ourselves on you know they be able to that our work is accessible to everyone to everyone and that's something you'll learn from also I think from that multi background to community yeah excuse me yeah and I was just saying I think one I'll tell you one really quick story about accessibility which is one of my favorite stories so when we did skin one of the things you know it's an infant show for 60 people we had a closed down road and you know we had to talk to the police to block stuff and because there was a truck that was going to drive through the city and so on and so forth with a shipping container and one of the things so we tried to you know get discounts and wherever we can because when we first produced the first version there was no funding and you know we had to put it all together so basically to get the shipping container and the 40 foot container and the truck driver we had to go to a logistics company that was in a port about 45 minutes outside Kuala Lumpur and we had to explain to the owner of the port that we wanted his driver an empty container and we wanted him to come at least particular times and whatever not and and you know and they did some math and they said it was going to cost 12,000 ring it which is about 3,000 US dollars for the whole period and in Malaysia what you have to do is you've got to write a check for 50% so that you know we gave them a check for 6,000 ring it and of course the driver came and you know and we did the rehearsals and whatever not and of course for opening night we invited this guy to come along and he's never been to a data show in his life he doesn't speak much English he speaks Malay and Chinese it comes with his sort of his wife and they you know they sort of dressed up when they go into the opera because they thought it was this this show that was a data show and something that the elite upper classes do and so they came very well dressed and of course you know they were put through the ranks and they had to do the whole thing and you know the wife and him were separated separated he had the champagne at the pretzels she was on the truck and you know he saw how his truck was being used and at the end after the whole kind of experience talking to the human rights oaks and whatever not you know you know you know this is the guy who's never seen any data you've thrown him into a truck thing contemporary dance and he looks at me he just gives me a thumbs up and he says we're very very very good very good and then he leaves you know and then we don't hear from him for about a week and then I come to the office and one morning and uh one of the uh our admin admin staff basically says oh boss there's a there's a that the envelope for you and it's from the company and he returned our six thousand dollar deposit he said he didn't want to take any money so he said he was like yeah yeah he was a little note saying thank you very much no need money and he returned our check so you know so you know again you know something must have happened for this person to be able to access that production and for him you know businessman never been to the data to hand back a check and said and literally uh thank you very much no need money that was his note and so I you know we sat there and you know that that was better than any newspaper review that was better than any facebook post that was better than any kind of thing because I sat there and went you know this is something that you can do and you know and and I think for a long time I think the art often um sometimes you know they they fail fail to include and they fail to get access and you know and it's all about the exclusivity and who goes where you know whether you perform this venue or that venue and so on and so forth but I think at the end of the day it comes back down to the audience and the people that you actually want to connect with and the people you want to tell these stories to and I think as long as you've got good stories people will want to hear it in whichever way or form which is why I think the arts will survive and I think that's going to be you know it's going to be pretty exciting few years. What a great great great story also the idea that you define the driver and the company as your audience that you want them involved that they understood what you did and it was about human trafficking this was a serious serious work and as you said with modern dance I saw a bit of the video conceptual modern dance with it so this is it is really stunning like Peter Schumann yesterday who said we did our shows in the early 60s in Spanish when we performed on the streets Puerto Rican kids had to go to Vietnam War the mothers asked us they commissioned him to write a play or to do something because they saw them and he said that letter was said here we regret to inform you the mothers got those letters that their sons had died and I said we of course did it also it interpreters that was our audience and nobody cared about that and that why it says the show they did most the most significant one they ever he felt perhaps they they ever did and by the way interesting the laundry and bed sheets and hospital he said he got uh I don't know if you saw it he got from the old house yeah old hotel that broke down and now he's painting on the bed sheets that were most probably came out of a some laundry so there is some connection to that whole uh COVID experience we're having we are having here thank you guys really I know we just scratched the surface but I think this is important work what you do there's an important culture and I think something produces the mixture of it and the mixture of western influences the US and European but your own traditions you are thinking your new approach to it and being trained in Australia so this is exciting and great in the world should pay attention Rachel Cooper said from the Asia side you have this world has to be represented it is such a big part and she's so very right I'm glad we have you have you here with us and like world music is significant every musician yes to music from the world to make his own music we theater people in the house we have to do the same that we really have to listen every lot anything in the corona time that it is the time as you say to study to go on the break to listen as a finishing question um what do you uh what do let's say you guys were you trust in Australia and the school and the covid would have happened or the people around the world who produce theater who are engaged in the arts and who are perhaps still in lockdown so what is your what is your advice you know we spoke to our colleagues in Brazil you know this is devastating this is no money it should harassment censorship ministry of culture has been dismantled almost a million cases now and it's being still denied the government officially says don't count the cases what do you say to artists who are engaging in a way the world as you do and say we want to tell stories but how should they use this time and what is of importance how should they what does it mean i think it's very important that they continue this fight what is being pushed on them censorship to not to continue to tell the story so the rest of us can hear that is the job of justice our jobs is that to continue to ensure that our stories our experience get told and i think to add to every other person out there whether they're in brazil they're in america you know through this going through this this horrific situation because it has decimated you know it is decimated income it's a decimated families friends you know and everything so the thing is to be strong and to continue to figure and to continue to keep working no matter what means are available to us to keep writing to keep to keep telling stories to keep to keep it going because that's the only way which which we can because people are confined at home people are confined in you know if you if you're suspected of covid you're you're taken to hospital and you're quarantined you know so it's a very very it's a very very harsh reality which we all are facing in 2020 and nobody has got the answers governments i've lost some governments are getting it right some governments are getting it wrong you know and so many organizations are fighting to survive so the thing which we keep telling people when when we talk to artists to organizations around the world is is keep keep fighting keep telling the stories and we all have got to adapt and nobody has the answer now we wish we do but it will there will there will come a time when we all we all will want to hear the stories because that's what we are chroniclers and if i can add one other thing which is something that personally happened to me i think i think this is also an unprecedented opportunity to actually get to know yourself you know when you spend so much time in isolation in your own house you start to notice you know sort of your arm fat down there you start to notice that you know this is how your hair grows and you start to actually look at yourself and kind of you get this opportunity to question everything that you believe in that you thought you believe in because there's never been a period of time where you've had such intense investigation of self and why you do what you want to do and i think if an artist gets to use this time to actually look and you know if say for example your government is doing this and then you're like why are you upset with that like what is it about what they're doing that really pisses you off you know is it just because everybody's pissed off but why is it that you are pissed off you know the ability to understand that to understand why you like you know using your knife in your left hand instead of your right and this is a really interesting thing but you go like but why is that and i think the more you can start to understand yourself and why you're responding to things in very particular ways i think that is going to help you tell more original stories and also it's going to help you really send out a story from your unique perspective of why these things upset you and i think if people can latch onto that then i think you create a movement you know i think with the very very sad case of George Floyd i think what we saw on that video was basically what we all started the questions why are we upset with that what about that video was so upsetting and that everybody had an individual reaction to that moment and that individual reaction started a group reaction which started a national movement which now started a global movement so i think this period is about looking at all those moments and never in i mean in my lived life i've never had this opportunity and you know it's not like world war two where yes things didn't function but the bombs going off everywhere this is like everything is quiet everything is peaceful you get you know internet you know this is an insane privilege and you get to talk with people more than ever and i think this is the opportunity the artists to actually take to understand themselves so that they can better tell stories that makes any sense yeah no it makes a lot of sense yeah and and something to really consider know yourself and get to know yourself observe you have your body and you can observe and then from the individual experience to your community to your city and then from your country and to and to have a global consciousness while acting and working locally so this is a really really important to hear from you congratulation on your work it's stunning to hear what you do how you do it your story and it's inspiring it's also full of energy and i think also the news from your country that it is dealing so well with it that the arts are flourishing let you know art schools are opening festivals are happening and that you do work that you know the the established festivals are happy to have in because it is something new that looks at the same in a different way in a new way you found a new form in your container playing the idea of the active theater is something you really might think about more write something a little a little booklet about your work while you're out there so thank you really really really for showing it it's almost no it's past one o'clock and this it is great i saw some feet on the leg there so on the bed behind you so it is sleeping time in in kerala and thank you really really for for for joining us and for all of you tomorrow we have the great tanya progera you really something not to miss like today she will talk about her work in cuba and why she does the art and and how much trouble it gets her but also what a real significant effect it has and what an artist actually can do by one single artist who start out as an art student at an at a university and hope azeta from rwanda i think she's a fantastic and brilliant artist to hear from here and someone amini from iran who's in the Netherlands so um stay with us this week um it's really a journey around the world and what we take again this week thanks for hull around it there was some college for hosting us vj cia and trevis my team san yang and andy and to you audience members i know um some of you really listening very very often last night i had to talk and um and people who who who say that it also you know is a staple of the days of their weeks and how they can tune if they want and they're interested in that it is so meaningful what you tell the audiences um about your work and life and um and that it is um expression of a new time also we do live in that we are connected that we listen to each other that what you do is important and but also listening is of significance and then as you guys said you know change yourself also change in an authentic way and use this time as a way to make the world better as we know especially in america things are not working the forms are not right the results are not right there is structural problems they are here it is not open as you guys also said and um we know it but what's important is what do you do with knowledge and we have to do something to change it so thank you all and um have a good night and uh uh and to our audience i hope you will stay safe stay tuned and see you again this week or tomorrow thank you so much thank you