 This coronavirus outbreak has impacted us both from a health perspective but also financially. If you're an engineer and maybe you have a 401k or you have a mortgage or other loans that you're dealing with and you're not quite sure how you're going to navigate through this crisis, this is the episode for you. We have Bill Keane, CEO of Keane Wealth coming on with us once again and Bill's going to walk through some specific actions that you can take during this time to help you and your family navigate the crisis, but not only that, he's going to talk about some opportunities that may be available to you during this time financially. Yes, I said opportunities, so let's jump right in with Bill Keane. All right, now I'd like to welcome our guest for today or welcome back our guests for today, Bill Keane, CEO of Keane Wealth Advisors. Bill was on the podcast not long ago, about six months or so ago, talking about retirement planning as he works with a lot of engineers and engineering companies, but in light of everything going on with COVID-19, we brought him back on to help us think through some of the financial ramifications of this crisis. So Bill, welcome back. Thank you, Anthony. It is a real pleasure to be back on your program again and unfortunately some of the strategies we discussed on my first appearance are now really coming into play in the real world here, aren't they? Yeah, for sure. Yeah, something that obviously nobody really was expecting, even as little as a month or so ago. At least a lot of Americans were blindsided, but first and foremost, of course, Bill and I want to stress the idea of staying home, staying healthy, being really smart about that side of things. I mean, health has to be your number one thing. That being said, we're hearing from a lot of engineers who are working from home and obviously some of the big concerns they have outside of their health are the financial side of things. This is what's going on right now with the economy and the stock market. That's why we're kind of bringing Bill on here to kind of talk through with everything going on, thinking about your finances, thinking about the economic side of things, what are some things you can take? So first of all, Bill, just again, welcome back and how are you doing right now? Well, we're holding in there, Anthony. We handle the life savings for many families, hundreds and hundreds of families, and some are in the wealth building stages of their life. They're still working, they're adding, they're accumulating assets, and then others, many others are retired. And so they're navigating these times as a retired person. And of course, I've been doing this for nearly 30 years. So I've been through some things like 0102 and the difficult, very difficult time coming out of a recession back then, trying to climb out of the tech bubble recession. And then gosh forbid, the planes flew into the buildings at that time. And our country was in a difficult spot or 0809 was very, very difficult with the failure, the literal failure of our financial system and exposing Bernie Madoff and all of the things that happened then. So I think our clients are, they're, they feel okay to know that we've been through difficult times before. But that doesn't alleviate the anxiety and the fear, we're in a health threat, we're in a financial threat, we're even in a mental health threat, we're all experiencing this very, very differently from the grade schoolers that got cut out of school mid-year to all the way to the retired person or the folks that are living in retirement communities, everywhere in between. We're all experiencing those three factors very differently. And from the financial advisor to the clients that we are, it's just all about maintaining the discipline and taking to keeping that focus for folks, and then taking care of ourselves as well and our families and taking it a day to a time. Yeah, no, that's, you're right, you know, it's about, you know, health physically, mentally, you know, this is just a lot of things that you have to think about right now in terms of staying home, you have kids home, you're trying to educate them, you're trying to work, trying to get outside and walk around your house or your neighborhood just to keep your body moving. So there's all kinds of moving parts. But again, the finance comes into it because that is, that's a source of stress, no doubt for families that are, you know, don't know if they got a paycheck coming, maybe they do, maybe they don't. So that's why we're going to go through some of these items with Bill. And Bill, before we kind of jump into some more of the actions you could take around specifically your finances, let's start by talking about kind of what you just mentioned in terms of mental health, the news. I mean, you know, those engineers that may be home, they're flipping on the TV, they're seeing the stock market plummeting, you know, that has a kind of an effect. So talk a little bit about that, give them some advice on that. Oh, sure. So for years and years, if you followed my work, you will have known that I've been telling folks to stay away from the headlines. Don't be incited by the headlines that the media puts out consistently because they are designed even in a normal world to get clicks, to get eyeballs, to sell advertising. So they're typically going to be skewed negative and they're going to be skewed inciting. Well, now we feel almost an obligation to watch the news because we want to know how to be safe. And that's a legitimate reason to tune in to certain things like CDC or FEMA's website, other things. But watching the endless reels of the same information being restated and restated and the cameras going on the worst part of our country. And it's just horrific what's happening around the world and in our country. So not to downplay that in any way, form or fashion, but for your own mental health to moderate your news intake. And I've been telling this to folks again, like I said for years, but more recently, pick 30 minutes a day and consume your news maybe three times a day for 30 minutes and then put it down for the health of your mind and then when it as it affects your finances, you're going to hear a lot of different opinions on what's happening in the markets. And you're going to hear that the news coming out over the next few weeks is going to be very bad in the US economy. Unemployment will come out horrifically worse than ever in the history of our country. GDP will be the worst drop off in the history of our country. It will be bad, bad news. And it will also be bad news regarding cases of coronavirus and deaths of coronavirus. So we know that that's coming. And from the purely in a vacuum standard standpoint of how the market assesses this bad news, please understand the market knows that news is coming. It's a very efficient forward looking machine. And the market March 23rd was down about 39% from peak to trough on the Dow intraday. The market at that time was assuming Armageddon. Now, as more information comes, the market will process that. And the bad news that we all know is coming, it knows. So the reason I say that, Anthony, is because for people who are trying to, if you think that you're trying to time the market or you're now feeling the natural human emotion of getting out of your stock investments right now, you're normal. If you weren't feeling that you wouldn't be human. But as an advisor to our clients with long term investment plans, we have to say don't be incited by that news. The market will start going higher toward recovery when the news is still bad. So if you're watching the news trying to make investment decisions, you will always be a step or two behind. And you really run the risk of making an illogical uninformed knee jerk emotional reaction with your long term investment plan. And it's difficult as all this is going to be to get through. And it is right now on each and every one of us. The last thing I want you all to do is to make it a decision in your investment life to act on the emotion and have it have it cost you have it cost you investment dollars long term because the odds of you getting getting things set up appropriately, you might miss the next five or 6,000 point upturn on the Dow and then feel like when do I get in and then you're waiting and heck, you may never get back in the market. So that's following the news for a couple reasons. We don't advise it. Yes, it's reasonable a little bit, but please don't don't live and die by it. Okay, emotionally. No, that's that does make sense. And I love what you're saying there is it's one thing to watch the news to find that information about staying safe. But it's another thing to try to start making financial decisions based on what the news is saying, which you know, isn't necessarily a is not a good strategy. So, you know, let's move on a little bit into the some of the finance stuff. I know that you're a big proponent of financial planning, of course, you know, based on what you do, what you've done over the years, talk about, you know, how a financial plan during times like this can be helpful, whether it's maybe people don't have one now, but it's certainly something they can learn for the future, but just talk about that in general. Yeah, so a lot of people ask me, what is a financial plan? Well, a financial plan has several different data points. A financial plan looks at where do you stand today? What are your assets and what are your liabilities? We get clarity on that first. A lot of people don't know that like if they haven't sat down and taking the time to just look at their assets and liabilities. We then look at your income today. So what are you producing into your plan? And what are you spending? And we hope that there is excess. We hope that you're spending less than you're making. And that would be a starting point for this. And with that now, you can actually start to save money for the future. Now, I think it's good to add right now that I recommend that you have a six-month emergency reserve at all times. That's personally, if something were to happen and you were out of work for six months, that no income that you could survive. And look at that. We've said that for years. I've said it for almost 30 years. And now we go into a place where that can happen. And unfortunately, a lot of folks in our country aren't able to exist. Gosh, much more than even a week or so without income. So it's so important to get that six months of emergency reserve. And hey, that applies to companies too, because what we're seeing now is a lot of companies didn't have any emergency reserve either. And an interruption in business for even a short amount of time here has caused great, great harm potentially to many companies as well. But we look at that retirement plan and we say, what are we working toward? This could be an exciting thing to have a dream and have goals about someday. Yes, we're going to buy a house. We're going to buy a car. We might put a child through college, might pay off our own student loan debt. But at some point, we're going to be able to retire. We're going to be independently wealthy. That's the objective. That might sound crazy to a lot of you that started with nothing and you're building your wealth on your own like I've had to in my life. But yes, there's a point that you can get to that work becomes optional and you can live on your investments and have time and freedom to do the things that you want to do. And when we run those financial plans, whether you're 30 years from retirement or whether you are five years, two years, or you are in retirement, we want to look at all aspects to that plan, what the plan needs to produce for you. So what do you need to take out to live on if you're retired? It's very important right now. Imagine this. And then we want to stress test that plan. We want to take the facts at least once every year. Six months would be better. Pull the facts together and stress test the scenario. Run the plan out for the next number of years, decades, 20, 30, 40 years, depending on your age, and stress test. Money, Carlos simulate like so many of you do in the engineering community to look at projects, whether it's structurally or even forbidding you look at simulations, the very same thing. And when you stress test those plans, we regularly stress test every single time for a down 30%, a down 40%, a down 50% temporarily in the equity markets. We stress test for these things. So Anthony, now when our clients are going through this, even our retired clients, we were able to point back and say, look, we stress tested your plan. Remember, let's run through your plan again right now. Yes, the equity securities are down temporarily. But you don't have your money that you need to live on is not in those equities. We have other assets to provide you your income needs. And that stress tested financial plan, it's great to have it all the time. I recommend it, but in times like this, it keeps you from making emotional reactions. And it also that will hurt you. And it also gives you some opportunities that may appear as well. That's interesting. And what I like about, you know, the way you frame that out there with stress testing is, like you said, it is very comparable to engineering, which I think is good because if, you know, you're an engineer, you're listening to this, and you want to put this in perspective, you know, when you're working on a design, whether it's a member or structural member or some something that you want to test, you stress test that you load it beyond what it would normally be loaded for, maybe like a worst case hurricane or wind event or whatever the case may be, and you design around that. So you make sure that if that thing happens, you know, once in 10 years or 20 years, the building will hold up. However, it seems that we don't necessarily take the same precautions with our own personal lives, unfortunately, meaning that we don't kind of stress test our finances or, you know, other things, our houses or, you know, things around that. And so I think it's a good way to think of it as an engineer. If you're struggling to think about the financial side of it is just think about it in terms of like worst case scenarios or the 100 year storms or floods or whatever the case may be. And just starting to build up that emergency reserve so that when you need it, it is available. Now, Bill, one of the other things that I know you're going to get into a little bit here, which is important is properly allocating your assets, which is something that's very important, you know, which depending, of course, on your experience level, your age, et cetera, maybe you could talk about that. And, you know, also why that's so important in times like this. So depending on the stage that you're at, if you're just got out of college and you're starting to contribute to your 401k, your 401k and you have an ESOP plan, let's say, and there's assets going aside for you, it is so important to understand and not mistake this temporary decline in the markets for a permanent loss of capital. To really perceive this now as one of the most tremendous opportunities that you would could potentially have. And again, hard to talk about opportunity in a crisis, but we're speaking only now of just financially. So please, if you're a young person starting out, or if you're even in your 30s or 40s, and you still have 10 years, 15, 20 years to retirement, these are opportunities to accumulate more shares at lower prices. So I've had a few young folks call up and say, I'm putting money in the 401k or the ESOP and it's going away. So I put in money and it's just seems like it's vanishing. So I'm going to stop contributions and I would say no, no, the opposite. Please do not do that. Please continue to add. In fact, if you can increase your contributions, right now would be the time to increase maximum contributions into your into your stock investments. And I really like to say, I'm not talking about buying the latest fad stock, I'm talking about a diversified portfolio. Most of your 401ks and ESOPs have got index funds in there. So we're talking about the broad indexes of equity securities. As a young person, tremendous opportunity to invest in those securities right now and focus on the number of shares you own. Don't focus on the dollar value right now. The number of shares is what we want to accumulate. As you build those shares of numbers, when this comes back, you'll be in that much better shape. That's important to know. As you're approaching retirement now, typically within five to 10 years of retirement, we want to see you start to pull back from the equity investments and start to own fixed income and bond type investments. So bonds can be from US government. They can be from corporations, municipals, municipal governments. There's different ratings. There's junk bonds all the way to triple A rated bond. So it's good to get some council, wise council on which sectors to be involved in because a low rated corporate bond, even though it says bond and people think bonds are safe, can go down substantially in times like this because there's a default risk. So we have to make sure you're understanding how these things work. But from a general standpoint, as you get older, we start to move money out of the equity markets. Not all of it. Not all of your money comes out of the equity markets because imagine if you're 65 and you're retiring, well, you don't need all your money back that year. You only need a little bit of it back to live on. You need a little bit of the dividends and interest. You don't need all of it. Some of that money is still 25 or 30 year money that you have invested. So there's a balance to that. The key to it and in my book, Keen on Retirement, I talk about this specifically. We always want you to have, when you start thinking about how much to have in bonds, at least five years of your income needs in fixed income or coming in through dividends and interest, things that won't fluctuate substantially down with we go through times like we're going through this very moment. So you have time to not have to sell things at a bad time. And if you have at least five years, a lot of our clients have more than that, 10 years, 15 years of their income needs in fixed income securities. So they're not worried about what the market does tomorrow, next week, next month. If this takes a year to play out, they didn't have to touch their stock money. They were able to let it run its course and cure itself. And we were even able, if you're in that position, to look at this time for opportunities to take some of the money out of the bonds and buy some stocks with it at 30 or 35% lower than they were a month ago or so. So all that in mind, each person on their journey has a different asset allocation, but you have to stay on top of it. This can't be done just by happenstance, because what will happen is if you're not pre-committed in the good times to what your moves are going to be, when the bad times come and the emotion comes, and we are the trifecta of it right now, we open the show by talking about that, it's highly likely that you will make an uninformed emotional poor decision that might cost you hundreds of thousands of dollars if not millions over the course of your lifetime. So I think I appreciate that question, Anthony, because it's a wisdom that if you can own the wisdom, when I talk to young people, they understand what I'm talking about here, this is something that can serve you for the rest of your life. That's great. And for those of you that are new to investing or 401ks, maybe you just graduated like Bill referenced, in terms of asset allocation, you know, what we're speaking about, I don't want to assume everyone knows what that means, but if you have X amount of dollars in your 401k, you may have a certain percentage in stocks or more aggressive stocks, a certain amount in bonds, a certain amount in cash, which again would depend on, you know, as Bill said, where you're at in your life, essentially. And, you know, to that point, Bill, something else I wanted to ask you about was rebalancing your portfolio, what does that mean, and how often do you recommend people look at that or do that? Yeah, it's a great question. So for an example, let's say that you had 50% of your money, of your investment accounts in stocks, and you had 50% in bonds. What you want to do is those markets will play out differently over time. Typically, the long-term return of stocks have been about 10% a year over the last 100 years. And the long-term return of bonds, depending on what type of bonds have been somewhere between 3 and 5% a year on the bond market. Today, the interest rates have just gone completely down. The short-term rates are zero now, and even a 10-year treasury is in the 1% range. So things are very different right now, as the Fed tries to stimulate our economy. But imagine having 50%, 50%. Now let's say the stocks go up substantially, and now you're at a point where you have 60% in stocks and 40% in bonds because the stocks went up. Well, you would rebalance by selling some of the stocks to bring the allocation back down to 50%, 50%. Now this might be for someone as a retired person. A younger person might have more in stocks or would have more in stocks, but as the example would play out, we're going through now, stocks have come down substantially. So had you started with the 50, 50 allocation, you look up, and now you're, oh goodness, you're only 40% stocks and 60% bonds because the stocks have come down. And this happens every so often. We go through a period like this. So the key to this is to bring your stock allocation back up to 50%. If that's the allocation that your advisor and you have decided is the best for you. Some people, Anthony, and this time have even decided to go more in stock than they were before. We have clients that have called in and said, we get this. We've been through this. We've lived it for 50 years. We know this is an opportunity. We were 50, 50 stocks to bonds. We want to go to 60, 40 now. They understand this is an opportunity, but that rebalancing it by definition keeps you buying low and selling high and keeping a portfolio in balance. Some of your 401k's will do that automatically for you. That's maybe easy to set up where it happens once a year or once a quarter. And I'm good with those ranges, as long as it happens. At our firm, Anthony, we actually have what we call a volatility based rebalance. And I've got a trading department that stays right on top of it every day. So when allocations get out of whack a certain amount, or we go through extreme volatility, we trigger those not just on a random day, we trigger those very, very intentionally on days of volatility. But as long as you're doing it in some form or fashion, I'm good with it, especially when you're in the wealth building phase. That's great. Yeah, I think that's important because I remember when I was practicing as an engineer a while ago, and we did have a four company that was running a 401k for us. I just didn't, I never got that information. I wasn't clear on what rebalancing meant, but once I learned about it, I realized how valuable it could be. So I think it's good for people to just be educated on that, of course. All right, so what I'm going to ask Bill to do now, as we kind of move to the later segment here of our conversation is we went through some things that might be helpful for people in the long term. Some people may not have a reserve now, they need to build one, some people may not be aware of rebalancing, they may start doing that, which may help them for the next crisis, maybe not for this one. But let's talk about some of the resources that are becoming available or have come available through the government that might be helpful for people right now during this current COVID-19 crisis. For sure. And Anthony, you said that right now the rebalancing might not be helpful for certain people at this phase. I still do believe if you're in a position where you have more assets to invest in the equity markets, as bad as things feel right now, please take this as a time to get either with an advisor or somebody that can help you think it through because there is opportunity out there right now, even though it feels very bad right now in the news, and it is very bad. The clouds will clear and will come out of this here and will be on to new highs in the markets at some point. So right now there are some opportunities and the government has released something called the CARE Act and I wanted to just bring it up to you all here briefly. I've got a summary, a couple summary pages, of course a Google search will give you a lot of information, sometimes way too much information so you don't know how to sift through it. But for those of you that are following this, I would like to know each one of us is going to get, if you qualify income-wise, a check in the mail for somewhere between probably about 1200 and 2400 for a single file or a married couple for each child another $500 for each child under 17. So there actually will be a stimulus check that will either come into your direct deposit on your bank account or it will come to you via the mail at some point. There's also right now help with rent, mortgage, and student loan debt. So if some of you have been furloughed, it would be a difficult time. And the last thing you might be thinking of right now is adding more money to your investments and so I can acknowledge and honor that. It's a difficult situation right now but with these other things that are available, please understand that they are there for your help and to take advantage of those without question. There's also the unemployment situation that's happening now. There's a typical unemployment that you would receive if you have been furloughed. And then everybody that files for unemployment for the next 13 weeks will get an additional $600 a week, Anthony. I don't know if you saw that or not but what that will do is in most states it will get most people up to an income if you think of it. Typical unemployment is around three to five hundred a month. You get another 600. We're talking somewhere around 48,000 a year of income at least for the next 13 weeks that would come in to help folks get by. So 48,000 a year on unemployment. So that's way more than it typically is. So the government has taken this very, very seriously. The acts that they've pushed through, in fact we're looking at potentially, that it could be a benefit to the engineering community, an infrastructure act. And number four, we'll see how that plays out. I'm sure you're following that closely. And I would, I do want to say too, I'm deeply appreciative of all the essential workers right now. All the frontline workers, all the supply chain workers, the medical workers, the people that are out there helping our economy run because our economy is still running even though it doesn't feel like it is when you drive around town. And the engineers because engineering is an essential business. And I know the engineers are still operating Anthony and I have a deep respect for that right now. Yeah, no, absolutely. I mean, what people are doing out there on the front lines is amazing and we're grateful for them for sure. And you know, really our prayers and thoughts are going out to them on an everyday basis. So Bill, let's talk about another potential opportunity point, which could be kind of refinancing some of your higher interest debt right now. Talk about that a little bit. Yes. So as I mentioned, if you have consumer debt, if you have a mortgage that's up in the 4% or higher, any type of debt right now, rates are at historic lows. So the the when you hear interest rates are down, the interest rate that the Federal Reserve controls is the very short overnight lending rate, they have that down to 0%. It's a 0% short term rate. It means you'll get paid nothing really on your on your deposits in banks. But it does mean that it also means that for loans, we're going to have an opportunity to refinance some things. So if you have mortgages over four or any debt of any kind over 4%, or so, I would be all over checking with your local banker and trying to get those rates reduced, we could see mortgages long term mortgages in the twos, which is just absolutely unreal. But we had someone out in your neck of the woods recently, Anthony that actually refinanced a 30 year under 3%. So highly recommend people look into that. Okay, that's great. And again, I'm trying to what I'm trying to have Bill talk a little bit about is some of the opportunities, like he said, obviously, you know, focusing on your health right now, making sure you and your family safe for number one. But you know, you have to think about the financial well being of your family as well. Because as Bill said, we're going to get through this. And some of the decisions that you make right now could have a major impact on you long term. For example, if you refinance your mortgage down to under 3%, I mean, over years, that's a monumental difference in terms of your finances, that's huge. If you were to, you know, pay extra attention to rebalancing your portfolio right now was another thing that can pay off and you know, big time in the long run. So, you know, we're trying to bring out some positives here in terms of finances when everything does look, you know, relatively, relatively gloomy right now. That's right. So Bill, one other thing I know that the there's this new cares act. Yes, that could be very helpful to some of the engineering businesses that are out there. Maybe you can I know it's detailed, but maybe you could speak a little bit on some of the just the general overview of it. Yeah, so we spoke a little bit earlier about the cares act for the individual with the checks that are coming in to folks, the recovery rebates, they're calling them unemployment benefits, mortgage help, rent relief, those types of things, student loan debt relief. And I believe you're asking Anthony about small businesses, because there's a whole small business aspect to this, if you're a firm that has under 500 employees, is that what you're speaking of? Yeah, exactly. Like I know a lot of our listeners work for firms that are under 500 employees, maybe they may be owners, they may be principals. And, you know, and I'm just looking into it ourselves for us. And I know that there seems to be, you know, one of the aspects of it that looked interesting was this paycheck protection program. Yes, the paycheck protection program is interesting. And we're talking about somewhere between two months and two and a half months of your payroll. The application would be granted or loaned to you with a 1% interest rate. And if you in fact don't lay anyone off over the period of time, that loan would be forgiven. So when you look at what your payroll could be, or what it is, you could document that and detail it very to the decimal. And then you look at some of the other benefit costs as well are included in that, Anthony. And folks are able to very quickly apply. Now, it's interesting to see just how many small businesses there are and how much money will be attempted to be loaned. There's a little fear that there might not be enough in this first or this bill that was passed this initial CARES Act that was passed to cover all those, but we'll see. It will play out and we will see and we'll know. And the government has come out and said, look, we are throwing everything we have at this problem because we stopped the economy. It was in best shape. It's been in 50 years. We stopped it to take care of this health crisis and we will turn it back on again and we're going to bridge you all to the other side. So they've committed. So I don't believe that the economy or the government will run out of money on this program, but the quicker somebody can get those submitted, the better and the more accurate the first submission when you're dealing with your local banker that hopefully you have a banking relationship. Most companies do that are working with the SBA apply for that because if you've been affected and I have to think most of us have been affected by this. So it's a very powerful, powerful benefit that they push through. Yeah, no, it is. It is. And it's good to hear you kind of talk about some of the aspects of it because I know it could be overwhelming for people out there that are trying to learn about that. And I know Bill has some information. We can link to it in this episode and we can put some links in there that will be helpful for you. That can help you kind of navigate some of this. And of course, for some of you that are firm owners out there, you can get in touch with Bill as well. If you reach out to us, we can get you his information. We'll put his website and everything like that in the show notes. Now, Bill, as we start to wrap up here, one question that I have for you, just general that I'm thinking about us, I'm seeing all the stimulus that's happening with the government pumping money back into citizens and the economy. And I totally understand why they're doing it. I'm just wondering, what does that do to the economy long term? I understand we need to do it to get through this, but when you put that much more money out there, how does it affect us? It's a question I'm curious about. Interesting question. It might have just kind of slipped by, huh? It's kind of like, well, if the building is on fire, let's put the building out first and then we'll worry about the other stuff later. It's kind of what the government's talking about right now. And the coronavirus is the building on fire. But let me speak to it for a moment, because it does make sense. Where does this money come from? We're in a period right now where we've just been on a 12 years out from the 0809 banking collapse. And we had, you might recall, we had what they called TARP. Do you remember that TARP? Troubled Asset Relief Program occurred in 2009, 2008, 2009. Okay. This is a bad term, but bail out the banks, right? A lot of the support is a loan that will get paid back to the government, first off. So when they're talking about trillions and six trillion and two trillion and all these trillions, some of it will be given away. Unemployment will be given away. The loans we just talked about to small business, that's money. If it's forgiven, that money is gone. They don't get it back. But the money that they will be supporting companies like Boeing and the airlines and some of the other companies that they will be working on to salvage, those will be loans that will be paid back. It's just money put into the system that will come back and taxpayers will actually have made a return on that money. And in some cases, there might even be equity. The government might even take some form of equity or option type, derivative type position in the upside of some of those companies, so that the original shareholders are diluted. But at least the company didn't go bankrupt and the government made a return on the investment. Okay. And that's how they're getting it back and then a little bit on top of that for some of the forgiving loans that might make up some of those forgiving, the money that's been forgiven. That is, that's correct, but not all of it. There's still a big deal. I mean, there's pictures of Steve Mnuchin out there standing there with his wife, I think, and he's done a wonderful, wonderful job. But he's standing there in front of, I think I've seen one that has two trillion dollar coins. He's got a trillion dollar coin in each hand. I mean, it's a lot to be able to do. Now the other thing about it as well, I follow Ben Bernanke. He's one of the people, he was a Fed chairman that's not currently active, but we have a lot of very smart research people that we follow. And I've listened to a conference called with Ben recently, Mr. Bernanke. And he made a great point. And that's that's that, if you think about the debt the US has, and that's what you're speaking to is the debt of our country at some point this comes back to roost. Well, how do you service the debt? Well, you have to pay interest on the debt. Well, it just so happens that we, as we talked earlier, the interest rates right now in the United States are so low that it's not very difficult to service the debt or at least it's less difficult than if the rates were higher. So debt service today is is no big deal for us. Now no big deal might be a stretch, but it's less of a deal than it would be if rates were five or 10% way less. The reason rates are so low is because there's such a demand for our government bonds and bonds trade by supply and demand. So so much money has come into our government bonds because the world believes that we're the safest place to have money parked that it's brought rates down. So there's an inverse relationship and we could probably do a whole show on some of this stuff. But but to speak to you, we have a we have a massive supply of capital because all the money came in is coming into our government bonds and it's not costing us that much to service that debt. That's my point. So that's helping with some of this this concern that you rightfully have about how this all plays out 10 years from now, right? Right. No, it makes sense. And you know, it's just my wife and I were sitting on the couch, you know, watching this on the news, of course, about trillions and trillions and we're like, what is this monopoly? We're just handing money out to everybody, you know, like it's got to come back to home with this. But to your point, you know, I understand if they're getting maybe inequity in some of these companies on the upside or you know, a lot of the stuff is paid back, not all of it, but a good amount of bits paid back. And that would make sense. And quite frankly, you know, I see I see it makes sense because the alternative obviously is worse. I mean, you can't have, you know, right after country default on their mortgages, because then you got a whole other issue that's probably just as bad as putting the money out there, if not worse. So so it's totally totally makes sense. And it's just I just wanted to like kind of understand it. And I think that you know, some of those points you made make me feel better about it. Maybe a little bit better. It's another chapter we'll have to deal with for sure. Well, Bill, listen, it's been a pleasure to have you back on. Bill's made some great points here. I mean, listen, a lot of us are worried, anxious, upset about what's going on in terms of health wise, but also financially, you know, maybe not sure about how you're going to pay your mortgage, maybe not sure about, you know, what's going to happen long term with your job and things of that nature. But I do feel like speaking with Bill, it's good to hear that we've been through things that have been like this before we made it through. The government seems to be committed to helping us bridge to get through and then turn the economy back up. But really some of the key takeaways for me in this conversation with Bill is there's opportunity in some of this financially, if you are rebalancing your portfolio, if you are maybe taking some of your higher interest debt and putting it into lower interest debt, which is some of the best opportunities available to do that now ever, as Bill said. And so I hope that, you know, in this kind of trouble times, the conversation here with Bill has maybe turned you on to a couple of opportunities that might help you and your family long term financially to get through this. And then of course we're hoping that everybody comes out stronger on the other side of this and we start to kind of get back to where we are and beyond possibly. Bill, thank you so much for taking time out. I know right now you're doing a lot of interviews, you got a lot going on, but we've kind of kind of made you our financial resource here on the podcast and I'm sure that means we'll have you back again. We really appreciate speaking with you. Well, Anthony, it's an honor to be on your program. I have a deep respect for the work you're doing around the country. Everyone, please stay healthy and stay safe. Keep your heads up. We'll get through this. We will get through this sooner, sooner than later. So I really appreciate you having me on. as well as links to any of the resources, websites or books mentioned during the episode. Until next time, I wish you the best in all your engineering career endeavors.