 to see you again today. It seems like this is our way of doing business still. And so anyhow, we've got a full schedule of people to hear from. I think we're gonna start off with Hannah. I haven't seen Maddie Anya. So will Ruth? Oh, well, you can finish. I just wanted to say something before everybody started their testimony. Yeah. So I don't think Maddie has come online yet, and she's supposed to be coming. But go ahead Ruth. And if any of you other folks got anything to say just, you know, when Ruth finishes, I'd like to say a word. So go ahead Ruth. Thanks Bobby. Good morning everyone. I just wanted to thank the four Addison County farmers who are here to testify today. As I remember, we were talking about a sort of relief package for Vermont agriculture on Wednesday. And we heard from some dairy farmers and which is great. And I know that the dairy farmers are really struggling. And I also wanted to hear from some other types farmers. So I called for awesome farmers in Addison County who do difference operations to see what was their situation given the COVID crisis. So that's sort of the genesis of having them all on today to talk about different sectors in the ag economy. Yeah. Neon, thank you Ruth for doing that. And thanks guys for giving up your time and showing up this morning. And we'll get to that after we hear from Hannah and the farmer markets possibly. So Hannah, you're on. You're muted. Thanks. Good. Everybody can hear me? Loud and clear. Thanks everyone for having me. Thanks Ruth for inviting me to tell my story a little bit. Sorry about that. Okay. So just really briefly, a little bit about our operation. We milk 130 goats and we pressed us all the milk into cheese. We started our farm in 2002. So kind of like before the big wave of cheese makers came into Vermont. About half, almost half the milky process is cow's milk that we purchased from a small, tiny farm in Whiting, Vermont. They milk 15 Ayrshire cows. So they are living the dream being a micro dairy. We're their largest market for milk. So when everything went down in March, it was not only scary like for our business, but also because this other farm is reliant on us for their livelihood. So typically just over half of our cheese was sold through distributors. So basically there's kind of four avenues of sales that we kind of have in our portfolio. One would be direct to consumer. You can do that two ways. We've done, we did farmers markets for the first 15 years of our business. Wonderful way to start a business because you don't have to wait to get paid. Very quick turnaround. Awesome community support and a really great way to test out different products. So wonderful, wonderful way to start a business. Then we sort of evolved out of that a little bit in that our children became teenagers and we needed to be shuttling them around on the weekends. So we started focusing more on wholesale. So two ways to do wholesale, one would be direct to stores. You sell direct to stores there's no middleman. The other way is through distributors and we use several distributors in Vermont and across the Northeast. And then the last way to do direct retail is over the internet. So we had had all those four methods of sales in our portfolio. The biggest of which was distributors. Probably 60% of our product went through distributors. Much of that cheese went to restaurants. And so when all the restaurants closed, our sales dropped by 50% basically overnight. So that sent us reeling a little bit. We took a week, we regathered ourselves and we said, okay, what can we learn from this? And what really is going on here? Well, basically what I think what this whole crisis has shown us is the market, like my web developer said, the market was going this direction. It just went there in five days, what would have taken five years, which is a more direct to consumer market. The direct to consumer market has been growing for quite a long time unbeknownst to unbeknownst to kind of had our heads down and just doing what we could to manage the day to day of our business. Can everybody can everybody hear me? Yes. Okay. Very clear with the zoom sometimes you're talking into the void, but great. Thank you. So we took a week, we refocused and we pivoted our business. And we're lucky that we're small enough that we can kind of pivot on a dime, not quite a dime, but pivot on a dollar bill. And we beefed up our website. Fortunately, we already had a website that could accommodate online sales. We beefed that up. We added some more like bulk items thinking that people might be relying more on web orders for like sustenance of larger amounts of food. So we beefed up our website and we started looking for new accounts that focus more on direct to consumer or direct to store, basically mostly through the mail. And I was really shocked. We just advertised on social media. The next step that we're working on is to acquire an email list and have email correspondence. I took several free webinars online about shipping product direct to consumers. Many farms across the country are very generous with their time and their knowledge about setting up a business like that. Basically, I feel like this crisis is an opportunity. And in our business, it's opened our eyes to what turned out to be maybe a better way and a more sustainable way for us to do business. So long story short, we have made up for 100% of the losses from our restaurant accounts just through online sales and through a tiny little farm stand that we put on the farm here, which moves an astonishing amount of cheese for basically it's a glorified birdhouse with a little cooler in there and we move an astonishing amount of cheese. And we live on a dirt road in rural Vermont. So people are looking for the opportunity to buy local. And I think that's what we've learned. People also want to have that relationship with where the food comes from. And we've said that for a long time, but this crisis has actually proven that really, really to be true, that the direct from farmer sales, I think is going to be the future for farms of our size. So generally, I would say that I've learned a lot. I've learned a lot. I've worked very hard the last month to completely to redevelop all these markets. But I honestly don't think that we would be interested in going back to the direction that we were going before, which was just focusing on the urban market, Boston, New York, getting moving cheese through distributors. I have actually found it really rewarding to have that direct to consumer relationship. And I think in the future, I think the key term that we all need to keep in our mindset is shortening the food chain. So I think that's where we're going to find resilience. And we think that in rural Vermont, we can't do that because we're so far from the population centers. But I'm telling you, there's a there's a lot of ways to access those population centers without going through many, many, many different hands. That would be my my thought is there's opportunities there to shorten the food chain. We need to promote and support the organizations that help to do that. So the Center for Agricultural Economy, I called them up right away. They were incredibly helpful. They helped us get some little micro technical grants that helped us access new markets. So I think that farm forest viability, you know, I think that there's groups out there that are going to give technical support to farmers who just need that little bit of technical assistance to really unlock a market. That's my feeling. I think that for a long time, Vermont has been stuck on looking for where's the next Ben and Jerry's. And I guess my thought would be what if the next Ben and Jerry's is actually 2000 little smaller businesses like ours. And I think that we this crisis has proven that smaller businesses can be a little more flexible and can pivot a little quicker than maybe large businesses. Well, thank you, Hannah. I was going to ask you how you're going to take care of your restaurant clients. But you already answered that and said you just so not go back in that direction. I don't want to drop any accounts. I'm not saying that. I'm just saying I think three months ago, if you had asked me, where's the future, I would have said the future is in Boston and New York and Chicago and California. And I wouldn't answer that way now, three months and three months later, I wouldn't answer that way. So I certainly value our restaurant accounts. I can't wait for them to come back. But I'm saying I just have maybe a little bit of a different focus and perspective. Well, certainly, I think the people not only in Vermont, but all of New England are thinking about shortening up the food chain. Yesterday, I received an email from a Senator Tyre in Massachusetts, who's the assistant leader or minority leader in their state Senate, wanting to talk about setting up, you know, they're short of everything down there, especially me and want to set up some kind of an interest interstate deal where they could buy meat from us up here in Vermont. So I think there, there are a lot of opportunities here or the move in that direction. Yes. Are there questions from any of the committee with Hannah? Yeah. Is there Senator Starr? I have a question. It's Chris. Yep. Go ahead, Chris. Thank you, Hannah. It's very interesting. Your testimony is, well, it fits frankly, what I was kind of hoping we would hear or where I'm hoping we can go, because I do think you've pinpointed the quote unquote opportunities out of the crisis. So you mentioned some micro grants. I'm wondering if you can, I mean, you're sort of maybe the success story. And I'm wondering if there are ideas or strategies that we can consider to help others in the smaller diversified sector, you know, have similar success. I do think we're all acutely aware of some of the vulnerabilities of the food, how far food comes, how, how dependent we are on out of state processing, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. And at the same time, there's a, that's a vulnerability, and we have an opportunity to be more dependent locally. And so are there ideas that you would encourage us to look at? We potentially have some resources to help small businesses in the ag sector kind of replicate your success. Is it small loans? Is it regional infrastructure? I mean, just throw ideas at us, because we're at a collecting, brainstorming moment here. Yeah. Well, I would say the first thing you could do is say, okay, well, what has a good track record of working right now? And let's try to bolster that. So I'm not an expert on all the programs that exist in Vermont right now. The reason being, we've been in existence for 20 years. And frankly, I haven't used anything in some time. I haven't reached out for help in some time. So I'll tell you the things that have helped us. The Vermont Land Trust is how we started and built our first cheese operation. And now I'm really in full disclosure, I serve on the board of the Vermont Land Trust now. But that's quite honestly how we started our business 20 years ago. They have a really exciting program called the farmland access program. And I really believe in that mission, because finding oftentimes local, not always local, but oftentimes local couples that want to start a business in. So the Vermont Land Trust, I think is a proven resource. Definitely the VACB, also full disclosure. I used to serve on the VACB board, but the farm force and viability program, I think that's a lot of great businesses. And when I did serve on that board, the first question I'd have for a farm project that came off is like, okay, where is the market for your product? I think that's got to be a question that, you know, we can't be naive that this is a competitive market that farms are facing today like any business. There's nothing wrong with that. It's a business like any other. I would say the Center for Agricultural Economy and all the different food hubs around the state, they're doing a great job. And they could do a lot more in terms of just helping people experiment like a licensed kitchen, they could go try making a product. I think we could do a lot more with that. My feeling is invest in ways that allow farmers to help themselves. You know, we're all entrepreneurs. You have to be a smart entrepreneur to start an operator farm these days. I'm sure there's going to be a program that I'm not thinking of now, but anything also that helps farmers collaborate together, I think is great. For instance, now that we're all going to be shipping a lot of product, how can we collaborate on ordering shipping supplies, you know, both purchasing together, you know, would the Center for Agricultural Economy do that? You know, we have this Center for Agricultural Economy that runs Food Connect, a delivery service. Could they work with that? The Massachusetts Market, the Massachusetts Senator you were mentioning. So there's, I'm always a big fan of not reinventing the wheel if there's a program out there that is successful and maybe could do more with some funding, I would say. From an efficiency standpoint, that's going to be your best bet. Certainly, maybe newer farmers are a lot more familiar with different programs out there that are of assistance. Thank you. That's great help. Yeah. Any other questions right now for Hannah? If not, we'll move on to Paul and Cal's a little bit about the turkey business. Okay. Everybody hear me okay? Yeah. Okay. Yeah. So we grow about 30,000 turkeys a year. About half of them go to the fresh market. The other half are processed into turkey products, ground turkey, sausages. We make turkey hot dogs, boneless breast. And those are frozen and sold year-round. So we have a year-round income from that. This crisis has increased our product sales, which is what we're selling now, to grocery stores, to retail grocery stores, our sales to restaurants and college campus kitchens has tanked. So we're going to have a lot of surplus product on hand come fall. Hopefully things will open up and we'll be able to sell that product. We're concerned now about our slaughter situation in the fall. To back up a second, we grow seasonally. We grow turkeys over the summer. We slaughter mid-October through mid-December and that's it for the year. We don't grow any turkeys through the winter. It's too cold and too expensive to do that. We spend the winter with a small prune making these frozen turkey products. So this year we had to stop that in March because of the threat of our workers getting the virus and we had at that time four Jamaicans working for us. We sent them home in the end of March because we were concerned about having them here and they getting sick and just would not be a good situation. So we sent them home. We shut the plant down. We furloughed the local workers and one of the issues now is that our local workers are getting more from unemployment because of the extra $600 that we can afford to pay them. So they're better off being unemployed. But right now for us it doesn't really matter because we're not growing turkeys or processing turkeys. So we're really concerned about this fall because it takes 24 people to operate our slaughter plant and 20 of them are from Jamaica. Most of them come here in September, October and pick apples. When they're finished that we have 20 guys come over and help us and we've had the same men for some of them have been here for almost 20 years. We have an experienced crew. We know them all. They know their jobs and there's no training involved when we start slaughtering again because they can go right to work. But we don't have an opportunity to distance people in the slaughter plant six feet apart. It's just not possible. In addition to that, they all live together in the bunkhouse in Shoreham at one of the apple orchards. They all travel together on a bus to and from work. And so we're really concerned about how we're going to handle this and keep them and us safe and right now we have no idea what we're going to do. We did receive a call from the Agency of Agriculture and we're waiting for them to get back to us. Hopefully they'll have some ideas about how to proceed on this but right now we really don't have any way of figuring that out. Right now, Jamaicans are coming in to do various jobs in Vermont but there are delays. Part of the delay is the U.S. Department of Labor is inept at processing paperwork so it gets hung up or gets lost. That delays things. The airline flights aren't so dependable today. That's been delaying things but I guess Jamaicans are coming from what we hear. I guess I can't emphasize more enough that we depend on them. We simply cannot find local help and I don't think even with high unemployment we'll be able to find enough local help to run our plant. So we're concerned about that. Half our sales as I said is pressure turkeys for Thanksgiving and if we operate this 30 days straight before Thanksgiving running 10-12 hours a day every day to get the job done and any slowdown makes a big impact on what we can do to get those turkeys out. So I guess that's the main thing on that. As far as sales go I agree wholeheartedly with Hannah that local is the key and we've been working on that since we started growing turkeys in 1987. We go to all of our stores fairly regularly to emphasize that we're local. Our website, our promotional material all emphasize local and like Hannah we live on a dirt road. We're an isolated part of Addison County and we get very few walk-in direct sales but that's increased quite a bit since the virus has struck. So we've had to set up a social distancing way when people come in to stay back from workers that are serving them and so on. So it's sort of a different income but it's not a huge income but the whole local thing is our big selling point. Local and the fact that it's Vermont, a really high quality product from the state of Vermont. So one last thing is the distributors. Now we sell, we distribute about 30% of our fresh turkeys ourselves but we hire Black River produce to do the trucking and so and the rest of the turkeys are sold through distributors and most of our products are sold through distributors so they're very important to us. There's no way we could operate without them and there's no way we could operate without Black River produce delivery service so I think that's also important for some other farmers and I can't emphasize that enough that we need to do whatever we can to keep them going and helping farmers in Vermont and I guess I'll let it go there and keep it in question. Well thank you very much Paul. I've got a couple of questions. With this product that you were distributing to the schools and colleges and different places are you are you still making that and are you freezing that or do you have freezers to keep that in there? How's that working out? Well as I mentioned we shut down the processing in the end of March and we haven't started up again yet. We hope to start again the end of August. As far as the product we have on hand it's in the freezer and it will keep. That's one of the good things about freezing. We can keep it in a good marketable condition for a period of time so we're okay there as long as that market opens back up again in the fall with the schools and restaurants. Yeah and when, pardon me, when do you get your little turkeys in your checks? Well they come, by the way they're called Polts, P-O-U-L, Polts, yes. They come June, July, and August and we get half from a hatchery up in Canada and Quebec and the half of them come from a hatchery in West Virginia and right now that's secure. The border across to Canada is open for business and we check regularly with those hatcheries to make sure we're going to get the product in, the chick, the polts in, excuse me. Well that's good news. Other questions for Paul from the committee or members on the panel? I do have a question if no one else does. Yeah go ahead. Paul, does the whole bird sales in the fall, is that, do you depend on that sort of as the prime, I guess I'm trying to ask is that a better return for you than the processed or the cutlets etc? Yes it is. That's our that's our prime market. At least 50% of our gross income comes from that from that market and it's much more profitable than the products, the frozen product sale. Thanksgiving luckily is a holiday that people still celebrate by families getting together and if this virus interrupts that part of it that may have an impact on our business but right now Thanksgiving hasn't turned into holidays like Christmas and Halloween and so on. It's still a family get together and Turkey is a really important part of it so we've capitalized on that. I'll go ahead Chris. Well something tells me even if you can't travel far or have large gatherings people will still eat a lot of Turkey. I'm hopeful there. Bobby did you have a question? I have a follow up. No just that like Easter this year was really torn apart and and I'm sure a lot of hams weren't sold or used up and hopefully that won't turn into it won't turn this won't turn into that by Thanksgiving time. Go ahead did you have another question? Yeah I did Paul you mentioned sort of a desire to reopen in the new universe like how you mentioned your slaughter facility is too tight for six foot and stuff like that. Is there a need and if it applies to you do you think it's more broad for say the agency to have five or six people whose job is to travel either actually or virtually to facilities around the state and help people say okay when you're allowed to open up here's what we recommend I mean is that is that again the same question I had sort of for Hannah help us understand where we can offer up some solutions or some assistance that could be broadly applied to our our ag sector. Yes I think that would be extremely helpful for the agency especially the inspection division who's familiar with the slaughter plants and so on to participate in in helping us figure out how we're going to do this beyond that maybe the health department also because this spread of this virus is in so many different ways from handling things to breathing out the virus that it may be I'm sure it would be very helpful if we had some expert people come actually come to our plant and and say okay here's we can show them what we're doing now and here's what maybe they can suggest that we do and I'm really quite concerned about this because if this second wave comes like everybody seems to be talking about it's going to hit us at the wrong time so far the virus so far the virus is not really impacted our our income and our operation but this fall is going to be a different yeah thank you any uh morose yeah I just wanted to follow up Paul you mentioned to me yesterday when we talked and also alluded to it in your testimony that you have some people I think you said the agency a bag but maybe it was another it was a fed feds talking to you about your housing and transportation for your workers are they also talking about the setup of your plant or has that not happened yet well it was uh we got an email from Rose Wilson and somebody else at the agency Vermont agency bag saying they wanted to talk to us and we responded and said you know we're available at any time but I think that was by phone I think we really need somebody to come here to help us work this out and I think the agency could as I said before be very helpful okay great uh any other questions for Paul right now I just wanted to um can I just support what Paul said about Black River they're a huge part of our business as well not only as a distributor but more importantly they're our delivery method that's how we can sell um straight to stores throughout Vermont in the northeast as Black River delivers our product yeah do they do they pick up right at the farm so there's you know very slow handling for 10 years they did pick up right here every Wednesday but then when Reinhard bought them out they said now we're not doing those we're not we won't do that anymore so I actually partner with another local farm and I bring my product there so I consolidate with another farm bring it more convenient location um I just briefly also thought of three other things number one the farm to family coupons that was a great program run by the state of Vermont that seemed to benefit two ways lower income folks who get these farm to family coupons and spend it on local food at the farmers market that was an awesome program and then the farm to school maybe we could kill two birds with one stone and um sorry Paul no pun intended and uh in you know really bolster like local foods getting into into schools and um lastly we're not allowed to even claim a tax credit on cheese that we donate to the food shelf um yeah because it's a value added product and that that could use some revisiting because that seems like we still donate seconds cheese and we donate cheese to the food shelf but we just we don't get any credit for it whatsoever I don't know I think I heard maybe the um department of ag might be addressing that there might be an article in this week's ag review but I haven't read it yet but that would be an easy way to uh kind of get a double benefit from funds spent yeah uh thank you can I just uh can I just say something uh Bob? Sure sure so we depend on Blackburn for a distributor and for actually trucking our products that we sell directly to stores and so they still pick up here every Wednesday and then at other times when we have a sale they uh for example we have we're making hot dogs now it's uh being there made being made at a plant down in the south side of uh Boston and Black River delivers our meat down there and brings hot dogs back and it's it's just a really uh important and necessary service and unfortunately uh Reinehart's been purchased by some other company now and as this consolidation goes on I continually am worried about Black River's uh being able to be sort of independent in Vermont as they are now so it's something that we all need to watch yeah that big isn't always better right that's right I think the boys up from St. Albans are finding that out um the hard way um but anyways uh any other questions for right now or we'll move on to Brian? Just a quick question building on the Black River discussion um I'm always trying to figure out how we can pop out of you know Hannah being really good and structuring her business smartly and Paul similarly for you into and you come up with individual strategies sometimes they work in collaboration but as a state I feel like we should have more more regional broad broadly applicable strategies and one of the things I'm wondering in this conversation is could there be a need for the state to facilitate some kind of regional not the hub in the way we've envisioned them but we it seems like we should not be dependent on Black River getting to each of your farms or Hannah you partner with another farm but rather you know um uh Western Addison County pick up every Wednesday so that you can congregate there and 200 farmers can come there one truck whatever I mean is that overly simplistic or is there a need that we could explore um to facilitate that because we we constantly hear this people as you guys have both proven people want local food and farmers want to sell it and then we have farmers who are struggling to make money and consumers who are struggling to find local food this is insane and and is there a moment here that we can capitalize on and with small inputs from the state whether you know creating some facility I mean it doesn't have to be ornate it could be just you know something that the county already has I have no idea but I wonder if you could just comment on that idea or something along those lines all right I'll jump on that um um yeah I think you hit the nail on the head I mean I just feel like the the solution is like is like right there it's just beyond our reach just like we couldn't have predicted the situation we're in now there's an answer which is just just behind the screen you know and um so that I guess that's why I'm thinking well well what do we already have in place I mean the beauty about Black River is that they they go every place every day every place every day so I send they pick up my cheese on a Wednesday and the store has it on Thursday and they're already going there they're delivering to the stores and restaurants every day but I agree with Paul I get concerned every time I hear of a buyout and in like in our case they don't pick up here anymore um which is not a huge deal for me but it's just fortunate that I live in the world of farms and I had a lot of farms I could choose from that would generously hold my product for for a couple hours you know I you know I I think it's an awesome idea um I think there's a lot of people working on that like you know the different food hubs and like here in Addison County we have a group called Acorn and they actually started an online farmers market um which we had a first the first drop-offs this this week so they they took through they took their the the reins and ran with that um so it it seems like the opportunity is there even if potentially we still used Black River but maybe we consolidated and then someone like Food Connects picked up and brought to Black River so then people there's a lot of farms I know they're smaller than us that would love to have Black River pick up but they have minimum and maybe they just don't they haven't they worked out the logistics um so I think it's I think it's a I think it's a great way to think it's it's along those lines of helping people shorten the food chain creating the structure to allow people to help themselves so yeah I could add a couple words to that um one of the one of the problems with the smaller farms is that you can hear me yes yeah because my screen went blank for a minute but okay so one of the problems is that the smaller farms don't have a consistent product year around which grocery stores need consistency they can't except for really seasonal products like fresh dirties for Thanksgiving they can't deal with interruptions in supply and so that's one of the big issues with the smaller farms and then the second is quality of product so I think I agree with Hannah that there are possibilities but I'm wondering if the commercial market is is maybe the best way to let this be handled because they have figured out how to do it and somebody else trying to figure out how to do it say connected to government or some other agency may be problematical you think you think independents can probably that they have to make money at at work and cheaply do a better job well competition competition is a big party yes um other questions I would just add several years ago and will you might be able to add in remember this um several years ago there was a couple of orchards that were looking to do this type of similar thing at the old packing house in shorum and I think it was Champlain orchards or maybe Sunrise orchards were looking at a cold storage facility there to try to coordinate something similar to this and I think the funding never came through for it I think when I was working on the working lands enterprise board we saw grant proposals come in to use like that facility part of it now is a seed fertilizer distribution center for seedway but I think part of it still sits empty right on 22a in shorum you know that's for for Addison county you know that's could be kind of what your brainstorming here you know senator Pearson um I think for non perishable products it would work fairly well I think for the perishable products there could be challenges um and I would just add also that black river while they don't distribute our product they do haul it for us to Cheshire Connecticut to Whole Foods and they were stopping into our slaughterhouse twice a week in the past picking up product um and we've been informed now just once a week so it's changed our schedule already um so it means that our meat where it was getting to the store in 10 days from kill is now going to be like 14 which we still only have a seven day hang time so now it's in a package Kyra back for seven days um we always prided ourselves on having the freshest beef in the store you know and and so now it's going to be extended out and we're hoping we don't see you know negative results of that meat being in the package you know for an additional three four or five days before it gets to the store so um that's just my note on black river and on that distribution hub I mean that was a possibility several years ago and I don't I think the funding just didn't come to do it will do you remember that and do you have any insight on that yeah you're muted well um I remember it I don't have a whole lot of insight to add Brian yeah so um other questions are we move right on to Brian talk a little bit about the beef okay so you know for those that don't know but I think most of you are familiar with our business uh Mountain Meadows Farms we an organic beef farm we've been in business for 23 years uh we're owned by a retired doctor Dr. Emil Cooper who lives in Boston uh I manage the day-to-day operations uh Dr. Cooper takes care of the the marketing of the meat to the stores and and all of the accounts receivable payable that's his part of the business um we have not seen anything detrimental uh I don't think everybody was online when we chatted earlier but we had actually taking a voluntarily whipped ship and beef for a few weeks starting mid-march right about when this corona hit um and we had done that just because our demand at Whole Foods is larger than what we can supply currently we are raising about 305 to 10 calves a year and we raise those calves from birth to slaughter and they're slaughtered locally in Benson at Maple Ridge Meats um and they're then just transported by Black River to Cheshire Connecticut the following week um year-round sales uh other than this little hiccup that we've had uh so last week we slaughtered animals and they will be picked up now on this coming Monday and brought down to Cheshire um so it'll be our first delivery back since this COVID hit um do they just have them or how do you ship them Brian? So they're they're processed at Maple Ridge into what's called subprimals so your chuck will be in a box your rib will be in a different box you know everything's broke into subprimals and Whole Foods finish cuts the meat themselves and make all their own down beef and everything we don't we don't get into any of the retail cuts or grinding of burger or anything like that um it each store takes a minimum half carcass and we're supplying 23 stores so they're they're on a rotation not every store gets a carcass each week some of the smaller stores get them every other and this has worked well for 23 years it's definitely a wholesale account we've never dabbled in the retail um myself growing up in Middlebury Vermont would love to see our product locally uh we've never had the resources or you know the marketing skill to try to get into the retail market um we've never done the farmers markets uh we don't even have a on-farm store um and a lot of that's because Whole Foods has taken 100 of our product and we've struggled to keep up with them um we manage that's a nice problem to have it is but as Rose Wilson told us our business is not saleable because we deal with one all our eggs are in one basket yeah Dr. Cooper that he was quite disturbed but it is reality um our business is vulnerable you know um and we're really vulnerable I feel like in three or four ways and it's one Whole Foods would be the biggest vulnerability that if they if they said we no longer want your product or we're going to scale back uh that would hurt us number two and I think is even bigger concern is the slaughterhouse vulnerability and especially now with this corona um so far knock on wood Maple Ridge Meats has been running at full operation they're actually busier than they ever have been at this time of the year because of the local demand and people who you know have bought a beef from a neighbor or whatever to put it in their freezer or pork you know I I saw some goats in there the other day I haven't seen goats in there in a couple of years uh so um but that vulnerability there if they shut down our product has to be processed at what's called a GMP third-party audit approved facility that is currently Maple Ridge is currently the only facility in Vermont that is GMP approved for beef the one down in Springfield can do some other small ruminants and pork but they don't do beef we wouldn't be shipping meat again if Maple Ridge shuts down due to corona or anything else uh we had been in New York in the past and they went out of business and two years ago we didn't ship for eight weeks because it took that long to get Maple Ridge up to the standards of this third-party audit how how big a facility is that Brian Maple Ridge I think they typically you know they can do 20 beef a day some hogs you know and they they rotate the schedule I think there's days they do 50 hogs but they may not do much beef or you know they'll do 25 beef 20 beef um you know and a few hogs or sheep um I think it's you know it's not as big as the one that Black River's involved with down in in Springfield but I think it's probably one of the large second or third largest in the state is there is there room to to grow that that slaughter facility well um this corona has definitely gave them a lot of business and they are maxed and I think I'm hearing other slaughter facilities are also right now which is normally a slow time of the year so traditionally you know these slaughterhouses through the summer almost lay people off some years because things slow down so much so I think right now they're reaping the rewards of people wanting local product and knowing where their product's coming from and it's it's been great for them because you know a lot of times march through you know say August is a very slow time for them and they're quite concerned um I don't know you know the owner is young these 30s early 30s I guess I don't know if he has much desire for expansion but um you know that vulnerability and then the third vulnerability is is you know the transportation um if Black River was to you know something go wrong there we'd be scrambling to find a different hauler we have used a hauler out in New York before uh it was quite a bit more expensive because they were coming up here with an empty tractor trailer picking up our product and bringing it down so the price per pallet was about double of what Black River does it for and um so that you know affected us financially there I think the other things in the beef market that are concerning right now you're all well aware of the dairy crisis and the farmers have been told to cut production you know 15 percent by a couple of the co-ops and I think agrimark was supposed to announce yesterday or today what five percent for agrimark yeah yeah I think DFA was 15 right yeah so you've got all these cows that these farmers are gonna you know have to quit milking and they're gonna come on to the beef market um I was on a conference call earlier this week um I'm part of the livestock advisory council for the state of Vermont also and Diane Boffel from the agency of the ag was in Chris the vet Kristen Haas coordinate this conference call and we were discussing this issue what are we gonna do with all these dairy coals um the whole beef market's getting flooded meanwhile we keep bringing in beef from Brazil and Australia every day and our American beef market is swamped with our own product and the price is just plummeting I think at the local sale barn in the past two weeks we've seen a 15 cents drop on on these animals and the poorer conditioned cows sick cows are really really in the tank you might get 15 or 20 cents a pound on the hoof for those cows but with this influx of of other cold cows coming in we were trying to brainstorm on what we could do when there's you know for the local um economy and beef to the food shelves or whatever some of these cows are in good condition and the thought is maybe we could put some out on grass with some contract grazers and stuff and I suggested they contact grass farmers in NOFA Maddie um for people who potentially have some extra pasture land that could maybe maybe graze these cattle and they could go into the meat market slowly rather than flood it because the the Pennsylvania buyers right now they don't want to pay anything for these cattle there's so many coming on to the market and with big slaughterhouses shutting down you've got that concern too will there be a place for them to go even if you know I've heard horror stories go ahead it it's strange that that with this influx of foreign beef that there's still no beef in the stores and in Massachusetts and it's just it's just like the dairy they're dumping milk and yeah and there's that people can't buy milk and it's it's the distribution and in the processing glitch right now that can't get it to the stores and it as you know as my friends dairy farmers friends of mine are just you know so frustrated I mean they're you know they've got the product and and they're dumping it and either in their manure pits or spreading it on their fields when the stores getting keep it on the shelf it's very frustrating um and I you know the beef so far I think people have been able to get beef but when those big plants that kill 20 30 000 head a day get shut down we could see that change um and there could be there's been horror stories I've seen pictures of thousands of pigs being killed on the farm because there's nowhere to go and the pig farmer cannot raise them any longer and financially survive it can't feed them he he can't feed he can't afford to feed him if he's not selling them and they're they're euthanized in those pigs and burying them and that's sad Ruth yeah thank you that is horrible horrible horrible Brian and I hate thinking about that image but that is not happening in Vermont correct that's that's elsewhere okay thank goodness um but you know you've raised a few red flags um for us to think about in terms of the meat business here in Vermont and I'm really glad to hear that you're talking about sort of how can you slowly get these animals to market maybe put them on pasture for a few months um now that the grass is literally getting green um so I'm glad to hear that's happening and um is your are your beef prices dropping you have a sort of custom market in a way are are you uh feeling that we have not and um we have not heard anything from Whole Foods about that I don't we hope it doesn't come back um you know we we haven't even raised our price to the stores in over a year and a half now because the regular beef market's been so soft we haven't you know dared price ourselves out of the game so to say um we're lucky we're in a niche market you know the organic beef in the north there's not a lot of it and we're buying those 22 stores in New York and Boston primarily into Connecticut a little bit they don't have other sources but they consider local so okay you know I haven't seen the the effects um and we we've never had Whole Foods come to us at any other time either and say we need a price reduction yeah that's good so a couple more questions if I may bobby sure so I appreciated that you identified three vulnerabilities in your business um and I find that really interesting and I you know one I want to ask about well all of them are really interesting but we talked about the distribution problems and that seems to be across the board an issue for all all types of farmers the distribution and the trucking um the slaughter facility you know you were mentioning the larger slaughter facilities in other states being shut down because of coronavirus but it seems like at least so far knock on wood our smaller slaughter facilities in Vermont have not had that problem but sort of to what Paul was saying about how they're trying to figure out how to set up their facility you know with social distancing and everything like that has the facility that you ship to and Benson had to change its operations in order to implement some of those kinds of practices well the the most obvious thing that I've seen is every employee was wearing a mask they always have gloves on anyways um that you know I was very pleased to see that I didn't know what to expect because when I went in there this past week um you know the governor's definitely encouraged it has made it mandatory but told everybody and so the owners of this facility I have made it mandatory that all employees are wearing masks and I think you know they've tried to cutting and wrapping the meat is slower than the guys in the back that break it down so I think they've tried to slow that process so that people aren't overwhelmed and crowded in you know 10 12 people in the same packing room he's have two packing rooms there and I think they've kind of split up now into so people are a little more spread out close contact you know it is still fairly close yeah and I'm wondering sort of to Paul's point about having you know health and agency and ag coming out and helping sort of assess you know what what are best practices for slaughter facilities during this um and um if that could be something we as an ag committee could gesture you know encourage whatever I think it'd be a good idea you know randy randy quenville and you know those guys could maybe come up with some ideas and um with the federal inspector too I mean they're maple ridge really inspected so it's a that's a federal inspector inspector that's there and maybe there's guidelines that USDA has already put out yeah in slaughterhouses you know to your other point about you know your your other vulnerability being just having one sort of market um I think you know what one of the things we're trying to figure out is what what do we need to do to support and help agriculture get through this crisis and come out the other side more healthy and sustainable and profitable for our state and wondering you know it seems like we have a somewhat of a direction that we're going to do to help dairy but what do you as a beef farmer and and this goes to all four of you what do you need what what could we do as part of our coronavirus package to help your operations get through this crisis you know I think the majority of the beef farmers in Vermont are a lot smaller scale than us um I think we I think we're going to be able to weather this easier than somebody that's trying to market um 25 or 50 beef I'm hoping that the local market the farmers markets as Hanna and Paul both said working keeping the food chain shorter I'm hoping smaller beef farms that'll work really well for them um you know a lot of them won't be a wholesale like we do they rely on the farmers markets it's great that they're opening back up this weekend um and that's going to be key for a lot of them to keep going is I think that's great that that's being allowed I'm hoping that they can sell it locally to maybe new customers that in the past have gone to you know Hannaford's or Shaw's um opportunity for some of them I think a lot of times the beef guys kind of independent and they don't like to ask for help and and they kind of feel their way through and you know sell a couple beef here to a neighbor sell you know our neighbors and relatives but maybe this is an opportunity for them and and um there's association to to start to channel a little bit more of that beef and make it known that it's available I think the biggest problem is is some of these farms is the consistency and being able to supply it you know year round not just in the fall or something when they take cattle off grass um maybe I don't know just some marketing help maybe um you know and um some resources on where they could move product to try to interconnect them with you know like farm to plate tries to do and in other organizations acorn was one that Hanna mentioned you know I'm sure there's some beef producers that are part of acorn also so yeah Anthony you had a question yeah it's just a thought really going back to the pieces about talking about regionalism and also trying to release things onto the market in a way that keeps keeps prices from falling and making sure we have steady markets about the year and then we talked about cold storage for a little bit and I've always wondered whether it would make sense to have regionally based freezing facilities maybe for smaller producers not the ones that are directly connected to whole foods but where process farmers could bring meat would be slaughtered then would be sent to a storage facility that would allow it to remain frozen until it could be released onto the market in a way that keeps the market steady I just wonder if that is something that people think might be useful as well and um I think that it might help smaller producers more than bigger ones but it reminds me a little bit of how the Jasper Hill takes other people's cheeses to age although you end up the age to meet frozen meat it could just hang there but same kind of idea of allowing one facility meet the needs of a group of farmers I just wonder whether freezing is something that would be on the list well with beef I think the fresher the better but certainly a lot of beef gets frozen people go to the supermarket buy beef and freeze it so it's not you know it can be done um but um you know I think as things move forward the more that people want local stuff hopefully out of this it may be a need that has to be something like that and be coordinated where people could bring their product because not everybody's going to be able to afford to put in their own large freezer walk in. I also think ultimately down the road that could be open to vegetables as well other other products that need to be stored so that we kept on the market throughout the year. I believe in hard work um you know they're they're setting up sort of in that fashion um especially for vegetables and things and you know Pete Green's is up there and and that crew is working toward that and and they've also had problems with transportation and we had testimony earlier I think where they were putting three of their own vehicles on the road to do this pickup stuff to get it to a central point so and then we haven't had this meeting yet but sometime we've got to get the ag agency on on our meetings and ask them oh just what are you doing for the different ag sectors and and I know a few folks that are testifying have have been in on any meetings with them and if they're helping along the lines that you're talking about or but we'll get to that after we get to hear you know you folks and and uh we all need to be on the same page we and we don't need any standby people you know just sitting there sucking up air we need uh workers and thinkers and and people putting stuff together to to get through this and to come out of it maybe stronger and better than before so uh will are you are you still growing your carrots uh bottom side up so they come up out of the ground instead of down yeah they're much easier to harvest that way they're good to see you well good to see you good to be here thank you all for inviting me to join you and thank you all for your work and interest in this um for the record my name is Will Stevens my wife and I uh own and operate Golden Russet farm in Sorum we're a certified organic geistful operation and have two greenhouses that we sell bedding plants from we've been at it since 1981 and uh still at it and we're in the process of turning things over to our daughter uh we're in the third year of that transition um so uh over the years we've marketed um probably every way possible including uh as a member of the deep root co-op we did 30 years of farmers markets we had a csa for 21 years um and uh and we're continuing with that um we sell locally to stores and restaurants um 90 plus percent of everything we produce is actually consumed within 15 miles of the farm um and that's been our niche uh that we've evolved to uh we didn't get into this because of any great business plan quite honestly it's just happened that way um but we're glad to be here and um frankly uh I have very little to complain about given what I'm hearing today and and what I'm hearing from others around um in terms of uh kind of where our business is today uh we're seeing a resurgence of interest in a regional food economy similar to what we saw in the recession in 2008 2009 people want their victory gardens they want control over their destiny again as much as possible so they're putting in gardens um they're looking for seeds they're looking for plants um uh and and I'll get into our role in that in a second um as as an essential operation a food uh operation where um I'm crying in my beer a little bit because we ran out of food in March our storage vegetables and we're not quite into the spring season yet we're not quite harvesting spinach our asparagus is up but it's not ready for market yet so we're kind of in between but where we are is in the non-essential piece of uh plants and ornamentals um but that's about a third of our income uh bedding plant sales in May and June so um what we've been navigating for the last couple months has been um uh I can frame it best by saying what if we gave a party and nobody came because that was our fear because we get the first greenhouse up and running in the in the beginning of March and a couple weeks after that is when you know the COVID piece hit um it was a little late for us to change our plans um so we decided to go full full speed ahead and and figure it out as we as we move along fortunately our daughter is is uh tech savvy um and uh so for a couple weeks literally we spent a lot of time developing a curbside uh pickup pre-order platform that we could use on our website which didn't exist uh in the beginning of March um it's it's uh it's uh time and energy we didn't budget for certainly but it's critical to staying in place frankly um we know from sales so far that um the vegetables are high on everybody's list uh flowers not so much um part of our business about 10 percent of our total sales is cut flowers uh weddings and bouquets that go to retail operations we have no idea where that's going to go this year um although we've had one wedding already canceled which is no surprise um but uh and interest in you know csa is you know uh off the charts not surprisingly um we're now uh with the governor's amendment um we're now able to offer limited um visits to the farm people are really missing the fact that they can't go in the greenhouses wander around and um subject themselves to impulse buying um and mother's day's coming up that's a huge weekend for us and uh with hanging baskets and all that kind of stuff that people don't have access to it's been a real concern of ours so when the amendment came to allow limited uh participation we had to figure out what we wanted to do we'd spent two hard weeks developing this curbside service platform and now all of a sudden we had to decide do we want to spend time and energy into setting up some sort of appointment system or some sort of uh traffic cop kind of arrangement or stay the course and just keep it on curbside and we've decided uh that we are uh hopefully this afternoon will go live with some kind of an appointment system where people can sign up online for an hour at a time uh and will limit it to uh two people an hour uh to come and wander through the greenhouses with masks and gloves and um uh pick out their own plants as opposed to our picking employees aren't those uh your greenhouses must be big i mean to socially distance properly you could probably have 15 in there yeah that's right that you know we could we're limited to um 10 per facility including employees and so um so that's an issue we have uh you know on any day right now we have six employees wandering around sometimes most of them are well some of them in the greenhouses and others are of us are out in the field um so but if we had two people in a greenhouse we couldn't have more than eight customers anyway and then if you do the square feet we're allowed uh one customer or one person per 200 square feet so um yeah so we could we could handle more but right now it's limited to 10 so we have to manage that we're going with the low number just to just try to manage that yeah to be safe yeah right exactly because at the end of the day that's we remind ourselves it's about safety it's not about you know our marketing or our business um so we need to be there you know i don't i don't want golden russet farm to be a hotspot frank you know none nobody does and so we have to do that um so but but it's been interesting in the sense that um i guess i believe that that farmers are our kind of mercenary opportunists and uh so we're in reactive mode right now trying to figure out like everybody i've heard today you know we're trying to figure it out we're making it up as you go along we're trying to figure out what are what the what the solution is to get us through the moment and then um interestingly too what's going to stick you know what are we going to be doing adopting as a policy next year what works what doesn't we're learning as we go it's it's it's pretty it's been pretty fascinating that way um we are a what you might call a hyper local farm i told you that 90 plus percent of our product ends up in the end user within 15 miles of the farm that's that's been been a real benefit to us at this point in time um because uh we have strong relationships with our customers and hannah has it right i you know we're on that relational side of the agricultural spectrum in the state um we have a lot of control over our markets over our product selection because from year to year we can meet demand we're price setters pretty much we're not price takers um you know and and we work with folks and and one of my takeaways and talking to the local general stores and other folks who are kind of front lines in this is that is that the hope is that people will remember once we've kind of got through this what producers what everybody here today is doing and trying to do in order to deliver product and deliver needs uh really as a service for folks um because that's part of what we're doing too it's not just about you know marketing products and so forth it's providing service and i think that's where um we can get it right uh strategically going forward yeah uh i can pause there if you have questions or um are there questions for um for will at at this point in time pardon me um well it's good will you you kind of figured it out rolling along here and it sounds like um you know you're you're keeping your head above water and serving serving your your area people very well yeah um yeah let me say that if it wasn't for our daughter Pauline uh we would probably throw in the towel frankly because i personally am a technological Luddite um and i have my flip phone still works pretty well uh when i remember to turn it on um so fortunately you know uh we have uh someone in house who can help us get to that next place and of course the goal is that it's her place uh in another couple years and so she has an interest in this and so i guess i'm going to take this opportunity to put a shout out to the farm and forest viability program because uh we've been working with them for the last couple years to help with that transition so in terms of you know senator pierce's question of you know kind of what can be done and so forth um you know continued support for that program uh is huge um once upon a time back in the 80s the ag agency had a pretty robust development division which over the years has been shrinking uh as as they navigate that space between inspection and regulation and development and i think that uh if if if they needed more or felt the need for more resources then maybe that would be a place to look um senator star you may remember the ag development board from several years ago that disappeared when working lands came around uh tragically in my opinion because i think that uh to answer senator hardy's question and senator pierce's concern about what can the state do or what can you do as a legislative committee um that board was set up to uh provide an overview of the state of agriculture and to identify goals for where agriculture can be in the future 2050 2100 a long-term view free from politics and they had perspectives that i was intentionally made up of folks with a variety of perspectives on vermont's agriculture and food system who could um uh free from uh repercussion make recommendations do deep dive studies uh the unfortunate thing is that they were never funded and and they didn't have the resources to do the work that that some of us in the legislature at the time kind of felt that they could provide and to me um one of the problems as you know better than i probably in politics is that long-term vision is often not rewarded so if if if it can't be done politically then maybe you have to look outside of the political realm to figure out kind of okay so who can we turn to for guidance and perspective and the absence of the ag development board i don't know um another piece of dealing with the regional aspect that's come up a little bit is i don't know if you've heard from elin kaylor and full disclosure i'm on her board uh standable jobs fund but she's um working on a regional initiative um that has great promise where uh for synergies between the various states of meeting you know need and oversupply so i think that um you know if you haven't heard from her she hasn't talked to you about her thinking around this i would suggest that you do that um it's it's very exciting so i think i got her working on that beef issue and with massachusetts and uh she has she has more energy than eight normal people i think yeah yeah i'm into that um any other questions for will if not uh answer uh roce i i just i just want to underscore what you said um will about how you hope people will remember and i i think that that's a really important thing for us to um think about and how do we help people remember what local agriculture has done during this crisis and and what local businesses and and local people and volunteers and helpers and healthcare workers and everybody has done how do we help people remember when life goes back to quote unquote normal um so thank you for that i think that was a great phrase yeah thanks i you know to that point um and brian was talking about uh maple ridge and and so forth um you know right now uh they are as busy as can be and and it seems like wow you look at it and say geez maybe they should expand or maybe they can take on more capacity and so forth but if after this bump the demand goes down again they have their stock they have no interest or really no return on investment if they do make that jump so um on the one hand you don't want to waste a good crisis but on the other hand you also have to be careful and thoughtful about how you respond to it so you don't set yourself afterwards and i agree will and that's why i pointed out lots of lots of years they're looking at laying off employees in the summer so it's not a this this bump you know is definitely helping them but long term who knows exactly but yeah local if people remember who've gotten through this being ag and small businesses and uh maybe people will be looking for more local beef and poultry and pork and and maybe it can help these slaughterhouses too and in the end you know it could be stronger but that's that's the unknown you know will people remember there's been a huge disconnect i think with society and where the food comes from maybe this will be a resurgence of that and people will realize they do need farms so um i uh agree with uh the trend of the conversation very much uh like will we're uh transitioning our farm well we have actually and sold our farm business to our son peter and his wife secret and he was just here a minute ago but he got called by a customer who came to buy some turkey products so i was hoping to have him on but he can't be on but i think for us for this corona crisis and getting through this some help from the department of agriculture possibly the department of health on how to proceed would be most important i think it might be important for a lot of other farmers too yeah uh thank you paul chris i think you had a question i i just you know to back up what people have said uh but with a little twist i i don't think we should hope that uh remodels will remember in the way that people have articulated i think people have time right now to take that extra step and go find local food but it's it's my opinion that people always want this and it's incumbent on us as a state with our partners to when we surface have it continue to be easy i think that's the missing piece that people always have this desire it's been highlighted right now because we're all afraid and and the the global food chain has come into focus but i hope uh rather than pin our uh the future on on a sort of uh gratitude attitude i will we will actually just have set up some process so that it's easy because people are busy and and uh they will buy that local product if it's right there uh where they're buying the rest of their stuff and that's why i i just continue to harp on these um facilities that we can offer as a state we can promote we can even possess like like own ourselves or work with local partners to uh do all the make to accumulate all of the good work that is happening across the landscape um in vermont farm so it's a sort of yes and for me and i i just wanted to put that out yeah thank you chris um i wondered um we we've got to go on a senate uh four time at 10 30 but i want to get everybody in uh anthony is your friend john showing up yet because i i haven't seen uh you had john earlickson coming it's just a john earlickson but we also the question is well how many people will try to squeeze into one meeting well we got we got john and if he's here with us and and maddie left and michael's you know to give a a little overview for non-dairy farmer uh program well both john and maddie have been thinking long term about some of the things we can do to strengthen agriculture in the long run so that deserves a conversation on its own maybe after this one is over but maddie's here for now maybe we should let her sort of talk for a little bit and then have a time when we get john earlickson is from the gundan institute at uvm and he's done a lot of long-term thinking and a lot of creative thinking about systems and how to make investments in in long-term systems that would strengthen agriculture and the rural economy so that's sort of it it's the same conversation but it would take some time to happen i think yeah so we might want to invite him back another time and maybe hear a little bit from maddie today or have maddie and john both come back another time and have a john is on the line john is on the line yeah i'm here i'm gonna just send me the link who else is trying to who is trying to get on to audio linda there's that extra bruce it was me oh well if if we could have john postpone his thing we could go to maddie because she's been patiently waiting and listening and you haven't offered too many comments maddie but i'm sure you've been saving me yeah go ahead maddie yeah yeah great thank you so much i really appreciate the discussion can you hear me yeah yeah you froze up for a little while but i think you're back okay great yeah my internet is not always the best so hopefully you'll be able to hear me um yeah i really appreciate the discussion i'm really glad actually that all the farmers had a chance to speak before me because i think that hearing those stories directly is critical and and really informative so thank you all so much um yeah i have a lot to say and i'll try to keep it brief but you know some of what i have to say is our overall comments about you know the critical nature of this moment some are really specific suggestions um that i think the committee can you know can take to heart um but yeah overall as so many of you have mentioned this is such a critical moment i think for the state setting it for the long term to move to an agricultural economy that's more diverse more resilient more locally based that is focused on feeding vermonters keeping Vermont farms in business and less on exporting food to the cities um as you've heard from farmers just now shortening our supply chains and diversifying are the keys to an emergency ready food system um and i think that's how we should be thinking about this you know there are a lot of opportunities to um both respond to the needs right while laying the groundwork to create this food system that we need in the long term i don't think it's an either or like chris was saying it's kind of a yes and um proposition in my mind and i really appreciate it will talking about the ag development board because i think that that type of work is really what we need are some clear goals for the state um to set and that we can all collectively work through i think that's really the work we need to desperately to engage in right now um while we have this kind of critical moment um i also want to agree with chris i made a note as as y'all were talking that we don't want to hang our hopes on people remembering i think that we all know that you know maybe some portion of the increased demand for local food that we're seeing right now is going to continue but certainly not all of it um so i think we do need to be proactively thinking about what we can do to support integrating local food directly into our systems to keep that demand strong and to continue to support the people who are feeding us during this time um i would also really echo what will said that farmers are not um just pivoting you know in their own business interests to continue to access markets they're pivoting as a service to people we really need to recognize that um so as you already heard farmers other than dairy farmers are also struggling due to their loss of wholesale markets like restaurants schools and colleges um and some farmers are able to scale up and sell more through csa's and farm stands and farmers markets which is great for those who can and who are set up that way um but as you heard from you know brian in particular was a good example these are different farms in a lot of cases um from those who sell wholesale so i don't want uh the legislature get the legislative date the idea that all just um and respond to that and be fine because it's not the case for everybody um so you know there's a lot of farms who don't currently have a csa or sell direct through farmers markets who don't have those relationships the infrastructure or the staffing to just start selling through those channels um and it's not clear i think to anybody at least not to me how the cares act money um that was allocated you know for usda to give out is going to support diversified or organic producers um many of whom similarly to dairy as i know you all have discussed are potentially facing greater losses in the second and third quarters than the first quarter so i think that's really important to keep in mind that you know it's not clear how how much support is going to go to them through that money um and so i think that it's important for the state to provide direct payments uh to farmers who have lost major markets in these other sectors the same as you're considering doing for dairy i think you know one thing that hannah touched on which i was going to mention is the idea of providing these mini grants to support farmers who are able to pivot and consider new markets um you know i know that hannah was the recipe of one through the center for an ag economy which is great um and we at no far also doing some of this we started a fund to provide what we're calling resilience grants um to producers who you know are able to pivot and consider new markets or potentially expand to me the demand that they're seeing um but we have a really limited funding pool as i'm sure other you know service providers um do but we're positioned as hannah said too for technical service providers like no fun others in the farm viability program um to step in and assist producers in and making these moves um and to help get the funds out but we need the funding to be allocated and i think that's where um you all can come in and in terms of those mini grants i wanted to share a couple of other examples that i think are really um great ones to lift up i don't maybe some of you are aware of this but there are many of these sort of ad hoc food hubs forming around the state maple wind farm is a great example in chinning county um where they're partnering with other businesses uh who sell things like you know maple wind is a meat producer and they are partnering with a mushroom producer um and null farm who grows berries down in weights field and they're doing home delivery uh all over chinning county but they are not passing those costs on to customers um and i've heard bruce hennessy from maple wind say that they are the cost for them is about ten dollars per delivery uh and they are just eating that cost right now so he suggests that they could demonstrate that cost and be compensated for it um as one of the options for you know funding support for these efforts uh another similar effort is happening in the northeast kingdom it's called kingdom direct and it was started by a flower farm in a bakery called a ardelia farm and they are in irisburg and they're partnering with uh a bunch of differences to provide everything from prepared food to like grocery products even i know they're doing um eggs and flour part of their delivery uh they're partnering with butterworks farm makes yogurt and things like buttermilk and and cream to deliver farm products and prepared food all the way from irisburg to burlington um so that's a really exciting effort and i think something that you know the state could support that could potentially sustain in the long haul uh and and provide food to an area like the northeast kingdom that might be you know otherwise underserved um i also think that you know hannah touched on this but it's critical that we still have food available to be sold to restaurants and other wholesale markets like the institutions when they do reopen so we don't necessarily want all the farmers to pivot to direct sales in a way that will make local sourcing difficult um for these larger accounts like restaurants and institutions when the time comes so i think that's just another important thing to keep in mind um i also i've seen some great ideas come through and i'd be curious to know you know what brian and others in the meat processing and production world think about these but um you know is there anything the state can do to reduce restrictions on the meat that is sold at retail to go to have to go through the audit system that brian talked about is there any way you know that we can either temporarily or permanently um reduce some of those restrictions while obviously still making sure that the meat that's being sold at retail is safe um there's kind of a list that i'll share with you quickly of ideas that i've seen to support some of this size meat process which could really critical to some of the diversity that um it sounds like we need so the first one is what i just mentioned you know removing the restrictions on retail sales of meat that requires it to be processed at a usda certified plant um so that you know smaller processors can be a resource for farmers to expand and meet demand um you know other support for small and medium-sized processors to expand their their facilities workforce development for skilled meat cutters could be a really critical aspect of this because you know as paul noted they're relying on um H2A workers coming in from jamaica um and i know that those are you know long-term folks who have been here for a long time and that goes for other industries as well um so i think you know ag workforce development is a really critical piece of this so that we are skilling at people who can do those jobs here in bremont and right alongside that goes with making sure that those jobs pay a fair wage and can you know attract young people to careers in this work who can stay in bremont um and then lastly i think one key piece of this uh that could be important to consider is support for processors to become certified organic because i think there is a limit and maybe this is something that um you know you've run into or you can speak to better brand but there's uh a limit of the the number of processors who are certified organic to process organic meat and personally just from a consumer standpoint i have a lot of trouble sourcing the meat that i would like to buy um certified organic there is really seems to be a dearth of that in the state and i would love to see that scaled up um and i don't think i'm the only one experiencing that so i just want to emphasize you know i think some of what we can it should be doing right now is setting ourselves up for a more emergency ready food system coming out of this um i we see at NOFA the local food incentive bill that this committee was working on prior to covid as a critical part of setting the framework for a more resilient system um i think investing in local sourcing in schools and other institutions and in the charitable food system is really we should be thinking of it as part of an insurance policy to make sure that vermontres are fed and that vermont farmers have reliable contracts year after year um those are just huge opportunities in those markets and i think it's going to take some investment um on the state's part to to really build out that that demand um some specific ideas on that front specific to the charitable food system or food for food and secure vermonters are that the state can invest in three specific programs one is vermonters feeding vermonters which is a program run by the vermont food bank that purchases food from vermont farmers at market rates to distribute through the food bank locations um that's a great win-win program for obvious reasons because it's supporting farmers and getting you know nutritious food to people that need it um two programs that NOFA runs specifically our farm share um which provides subsidized csa shares and we partner with farms all over the states um to do that and that's another great way to not only you know support farmers because farmers are still um you know farmers pay in some amount but they're still getting um the support from uh the subsidy that supports people's ability to buy these shares um but it also introduces people who may not otherwise be buying direct from these farmers to start doing that um in a way that so many people are for the first time right now and kind of gets them hooked you know in theory for years to come um crop cash is another program that we run that provides an incentive farmers using three squares vermont benefits um at farmers markets they're able to double their money when they're purchasing um fresh fruit and vegetables so i think those are three programs that are really exemplary of the kind of uh creative thinking that we can do to kind of leverage support for vermont farmers while making sure that people are fed uh also the last specific area that i want to touch on is support for farm workers um i think you know in terms of the hazard pay bill that's being considered right now um i understand that the way that bill is being viewed is really as a support mechanism for frontline workers who are at increased risk because they're interacting with the public um and i think some farm workers clearly fall into that category and those are you know folks that are staffing csa pickups farm stands farmers markets um greenhouses as we'll kind of mentioned i think they should be included in that because they are you know potentially as exposed um as other frontline workers who are being uh supported in that bill which i think is a great thing so i'd like to see that expanded i also really want to emphasize what i know this committee has heard that the state should create a separate really fun for um farm workers who are left out of federal relief efforts you know there are a lot of folks who are really underpinning our economy in the state who are critical to our farms and to getting vermonters fed um who are not currently eligible to receive stimulus checks to the government um and who may not be eligible for other you know financial supports who don't have paid sick leave um that's another thing that NOFA has is a relief milking fund and program where we've signed up um folks with milking experience to fill in on dairy farms when there is a need because as we all know that work can't stop if a farmer gets sick or if a worker is sick um and so as part of that we are um not only signing people up to be at the ready we have i think 60 qualified milkers signed up all over the state but we are also paying for workers we're making sure that workers who have to be out sick um because they have COVID can still get paid for that time so that's an example of a fund and you know that the state could support or do something similar um to make sure that those workers are covered because they are very critical um so there's some ideas did you want to ask a question well i wanted that i wanted to have michael uh address the committee uh i had him working on non-dairy a non-dairy type system how we might possibly uh be able to help uh like the turkey farm to beef farm the veggie farm um and i wanted to have michael um have a few minutes just to run through that a rough outline of how we might be able to do that and see everybody then could think about it and then next week when we come back um you know we could get into that portion of it by i kind of wanted to get that out to at least while the farmers were on the um the non-dairy farmers are on the the screen here so you could be thinking about that so michael you want to you want to give the committee a little update on where we are with that sure so uh senator starry asked me to look at at ways that you could provide assistance to farms other than uh dairy farms and one of the considerations was the fact that some farms might actually be doing well right now because of the of the terms of local food and um the increase to man so it i that made me me think that the program would have to be based on some sort of loss and or demonstrated loss uh and that made me look at um usda's disaster relief programs um they have a program called whip wildfires hurricanes indemnity um protection um which provides farmers with funds when they can prove a loss um i i think the whip program is is pretty involved and and probably overly burdensome for what you would want to do but you could probably structure a program that's similar you create a fund i'll just call it a disaster relief fund um and you then set up criteria for farmers to apply to the fund for assistance by demonstrating some loss due to cobit or or loss due to market conditions i think that would be very doable from a legislative perspective um like building the language and the criteria the question would be who would administer um what kind of workload it would require at whatever agency would administer it um and it also addresses that that concern that that you're not giving a farmer that's doing well a windfall um and it's different from dairy because dairy because of the federal market order the the regulatory price structure you know that they are not going to to succeed over the next few months that they will have losses um so that's a distinction that can be made between the direct payment to dairy and setting up sort of a disaster relief fund for farmers who have losses um do you have any questions but we uh so i mean we want to we want to help you know people um as much as we can there's certain program aspects that we can adjust and and promote um but there's you know there's also the financial side of it where we could help you financially if you've taken some losses and it it sounds like we need to we as a committee um or legislature needs to set a process up to to do this and I wanted to get you folks to thinking about different processes if you've ever gone through any in the past and how they worked uh so we if we decide to do that we'd have the ability to uh put something together that would work you know easily and and not have a lot of red tape up to it so we could get it out the door for you I also wanted to mention that the chair asked me to contact Vita to see what buying down interest rates by a point on on all farm loans um for three months would achieve uh and the new director of uh Vita got back to me very quickly um she said it probably won't do that much for for a dairy portfolio three months of interest is 163 thousand dollars for the non-dairy portfolio three months of interest is 112 thousand dollars so one percent reduction in their rates will not have a material impact on their cash flow um the dairy portfolio overall is 65 million dollars at Vita and non-dairy is 45 million dollars um in the case of dairy she says farmers can't afford any payments with milk prices significantly below production costs right now um so she is she's very willing to brainstorm with the committee on ways to to address the the pressures on both dairy and non-dairy farmers and the the debt load that they might be under um but she she doesn't have any specific solution right now but she's she's she was really she was great she got back to me immediately said she needed some time worked on it got back in a couple of hours and and has been very very responsive and and open to to finding a solution thank you thank you michael are there questions for michael uh from the committee uh chris yeah michael yeah sorry thank you uh we had a wardrobe change here we we're about to get on the senate floor um michael your your context is uh for non-dairy is people with demonstrable loss of income and you know that's straightforward i guess at some level but i'm interested in your opinion of whether or not uh cares act or federal money could be applied in a different context and and and let me just try to ask you if you think this would work and maybe take some research but the idea that a community as a community as a county as a state we are the the covid reaction that we want to guard against in the fall in the months ahead is the vulnerability in our food supply network we've talked all day about shortening the food chain and our do we think it would be eligible for us to invest some of this federal money in strengthening that so it's not about somebody's income but it's about making investments so that we're more resilient next time maybe we get pieces of it in place so we're more resilient in the fall but but that we're clearly protecting the community in a way that happens to enhance the rural economy and and vermont agriculture but is less dependent on you know the income at a particular farm and what's happened in the last two months there and rather is focused on community resilience um and and broader agricultural economy for the state do does that make any sense my question it does uh i sent you out a a document this morning from us treasury it provides guidance to states on how the state coronavirus relief funds may be used and there are three major criteria and the first is that uh the state those state funds can be used only to cover costs that are necessary expenditures incurred due to the public health emergency they go on to define what a necessary expenditure is it's a requirement that the expenditure be incurred due to the public health emergency means that the expenditure must be used for actions taken to respond to the public health emergency these may include the direct expenditures needed to address the emergency such as addressing medical or public health needs as well as expenditures encourage responses second order effects the emergency such as providing economic support to those suffering from employment or business interruptions due to COVID-19 related business closures so i think what you've been talking about direct payments to farmers a relief fund that i think qualifies building out the system into the future because i would think i would need to think about how to do that in order to qualify here we've had conversations with ncsl about how much how much oversight and and kind of how tight the grip treasury is going to have in in enforcing these conditions ncsl they're in an awkward position because they they they don't know what treasury wants to do and i don't know if treasury knows what what they want to do or what they're going to approve but they're saying that other states are kind of taking the approach of we'll ask for forgiveness instead of approval that can be a little dangerous because there's clawback provisions in the cares act you don't want to spend five hundred million dollars and then have to pay it back right uh so and there's a push from the federal delegation to make the these these criteria go away or to to make it much more flexible in the use of those funds so right now my gut is building out into the future probably wouldn't be a necessary expenditure and response to covet but i think there's imagination and creativity and some political pressure to try to make these criteria work for that type of thing and stephanie do you have anything you want to add we gotta go um just on the the ncsl conversation we do get the sense that they do want money deployed quick as quickly as we can um as well from those conversations so that's the only out I have there interrupt Stephanie but we have to go to the floor and I was just wondering if we could meet on Tuesday morning just the committee to to talk about ideas that we might have to ruminate over the weekend after this conversation and look at the stuff michael sent well I think that that's what I want to do is meet early next week and you guys think about what michael said and and where we want to go and I'd like to thank the the firm people for being on uh really appreciate your time um it seems like every meeting we have we whether it's an hour and a half or two hours we run out of time but we aren't we aren't going to forget you folks and we appreciate what you do and we'll get you back on at another time uh to review what the heck we're doing so I want to I want I want to I want to thank John Erickson for his patience of sitting through this meeting without having a chance to talk yeah I'm sorry John uh John we'll get you on though as soon as we can so appreciate it thanks everybody thank you