 Can I have attention please? Please we talk about care and safety Can we put that into practice? Also now or should I talk about chickpeas again? Thank you Gwen the floor is yours Thank you. Thank you, Stefan Bonjour à toutes et tous. Hello everyone. I'm really happy to be here My name is Gwendolyn Sharp. I'm the founder of an organization called the Green Room and Today I'm actually Going a bit out of my personal zone of comfort because I usually work I would say 95% of the time with the music sector Dealing with her environmental sustainability, but also as we will talk about today all aspects of Sustainability and especially social sustainability so thank you to the team of Circo Strada for this opportunity so today as I think you got from the from the wonderful introductions that we had We are talking about sustainability and especially now focusing on cooperation as a lever To navigate the complexities of what a sustainable world could be and maybe should be Of course, we've had since COVID and in the recent years quite a lot of talks Around environmental sustainability, which is maybe what comes to mind first when you talk about sustainability And by the way, we are now during the so-called sustainable Sustainable development week which lasts Until the end of this week until September 26th, and that's also very linked to the SDG So the 17 sustainable development goals that give this framework of the urgent work that we have to do As a society and of course which concerns also the the cultural sectors So this framework is quite used. We're not specifically going to refer to it today But we are really going to talk about sustainability in this more holistic way With our different speakers today, which I'm really happy to welcome They will introduce themselves and especially also their context. You will see we have a very broad range of Experiences and practices. So I think this is going to be a very Interesting conversation We are together for an hour and a half and we'll try to keep 15 minutes also at the end for questions So if you have anything that comes to your mind, don't hesitate to write it down or to keep it for for the end And as a warm-up, let's say we will because it's a bit cold also and to start I Going to address each of you With the first question and also if you can take this opportunity To to introduce yourself your work and as I said maybe context realize it and So your is my first question First question was for you first maybe to help us From your you stand as a researcher and maybe to help us also to have Kind of a state of the art where we stand when we talk about cooperation and sustainability and to give us also maybe what are the issues that we are dealing with Thank you. So indeed my name is yours. I work as a researcher. I work for idea consults On many different kinds of projects also together with Circus strada on the perform Europe project Which you might have heard about and you will hear about it later because a new call is coming up We are the research partner together with Circus strada and other networks in there It's a project about sustainability in international touring in circus and other performing arts So sustainability is an aspect there, but we also do other kinds of studies On other kinds of levels for instance recently. We finished also a study for the Ministry of Culture in Flanders Together also with Circus centrum about sustainable career development of circus artists So sustainability in these kind of research is a topic that's recurring and indeed it's About environmental aspects, but also about the social economic Personal and artistic and cultural aspects and what we always try to do in these researchers is Indeed try to understand what are the stress points? What are the issues? What's the pressure on our practice? But also have a good look at the strategies that people in the sector also outside of the sector are Developing together these modes of cooperation try to create more sustainable conditions And as an entry I would like to briefly break down these two elements First unpack a bit the complexity of the issues that we are dealing with on the one hand and then later on I will I thought about it's a breakdown of five types of models of Collaboration five collaborative strategies that we can use also to tackle these issues But first briefly what are these issues? I'm going to try to keep it as short as possible possible But you know it's very complicated, but I think a good entry point is economy economic situation in broader society But also the economy of our sector circus arts broader life arts how it is evolving and also Economic position of people working in that sector and maybe just to quote a few figures from the Study we did for the Ministry of Culture. We did a survey with circus artists in Flanders Being well aware that Flanders is also kind of like a privileged situation because we have a quite interesting circus policy, but also in Flanders we see for instance that One out of four artists has fixed employment Only one out of four so three out of four are working on project-based other statistics that Half of the artists make their work with no funding or co-production whatsoever So it's really from the touring that the income is there or from other sources of income we also see that three out of four of the artists Do have multiple jobs so they work as a circus artist, but they only also do Works job outside of the artistic practice in the sector outside of the sector Also, we see that Four out of five has an international practice. So what you see there. It's really all symptoms of the difficult social economic situation of Artists in our sector also arts workers in our sector I think it's safe also to expand that to people working with the artists in organizations Also, there you see a shift towards. Yeah, let's fix the employment more project-based And I think that is really the basis this economic situation of a lot of Pressures on the people and that's also something that came out of this survey The impact that this has on people working in the sector We saw on average a career of an artist responding to the survey it lasts 10 years Many people are considering to drop out because the pressure is so high Mental pressure emotional pressure risk of injuries. We talked about that yesterday Lack of artistic recognition that is felt less of time to exchange with the peers So there are a lot of pressures and yeah people are dropping out or considering to stay working on On the condition that these situations can change. So I think this economic Situation the impact it has on people on the social relations that we can develop by being active in the sector. That's Really a huge topic and it relates of course to the environmental aspects because we need to travel Internationally we need to produce in order to survive and this has an environmental impact And we saw in a study that it's really a challenge a struggle and I think it was also summarized by by the statement by Eric Lenoir the title yes, how can you Be one with your ecosystem and at the same time Kanye sacros as it was said. So this is really a fundamental paradox So that's a bit the complexity of all these issues, but there's also good news Especially in the circus sector we see that there is a lot of engagement Strong community feeling as we also saw in the artistic intervention this morning a lot of Imagination and people addressing these issues in the work themselves These are our strengths and we saw so that people are deploying the strengths by working together and trying to change things and Try to keep review as well as possible five strategies to create more sustainable situation I think we heard them all yesterday also in the in the panel about About safety talks about care first is Create Capacity for professional support of artists. This is really essential We used to have it more when we were still in the situation when everybody was part of a company There was more kind of like this collective environment, but now we have a lot of freelancers and yeah, it always comes up in our In our research we need more capacity for support that we need to as artists We cannot do everything together. We need knowledge context, etc. Some people have structural support, but only a minority Some people can work with producers, but a lot can so professional support is one form of collaboration The second one is Sharing resources within our community among the peers. This was mentioned specifically yesterday also with regards to risk management Sharing knowledge of how to approach these things, but also sharing our context. Who knows who knows what? sharing infrastructure is also part of that Sharing this capacity for a professional support and yeah, also Yeah, sharing money resources in Flanders. There's an interesting expert. Oh, no in Brussels an interesting experiment It's called the common wallets and it's artists Forming a community and they only have one bank account. So they share not only their incomes from from their work They have one bank account and a few principles So you take money when you need it and it's up to you decide when you need it So there are a lot of experiments also with these kinds of Sharing of resources and I think that's also a challenge for you as a sector I know that there is a strong community feeling in the circus sector But how to translate it in concretely modes of practice of sharing. So this is I think a chantier to be explored So sharing resources among artists and peers and arts workers is a second thing. The third thing Huge topic also is to create more sustainable partnerships in the ecosystem between artists and companies but also with presenting organizations the Residencies the different types of actors in the ecosystem and there's it's a challenge that the work has become more and more project-based And the relations are also more project-based, but also you think I see that there are a lot of Trials to create long-term engagements again Between producing houses and venues the residenties trying to follow the trajectories of artists and not just Supporting a production. So there is a lot of energy there and it's good and it should be further developed So this is within the ecosystem fourth strategies connections outside of the ecosystem not only within the circus fields, but also With partners outside of the circus fields with the educational partners with the research Well-being community Yesterday, most of you were there in the petty city. That is a very good example. I think of how you can create a sustainable situation in one space It's a different model of practicing circus than the international touring model So it's both connecting with the communities. It's environmental friendly. So these kinds of We see that a lot of artists also are stepping out of the touring model and trying to engage with these kind of practices as an answer also to To these issues. So that's a fourth Model of strategy and the fifth one is engaging in the dialogue with that with the policy makers The the analysis is also that our funding systems are in a way pushing us towards unsustainable practices So we need to take them along and also I think yesterday's story Explanation behind the publicity hormones. It's a pretty good example of how they managed to Enter into a dialogue with the local policy makers on the different levels basically also by listening What are the policies? What are the goals of the policies? And so now in an actual as short as possible when Entangling of the issues and already a number of possible strategies That was very clear and we'll come back of course to some of those points especially the last one also that we will address Jean I wanted also so you're referred to this economical aspect of sustainability and Relating to the to the models for for artists and I know that you've worked more specifically on the theme of sustainable careers of Artists and with a study that was called the next mobility Can you maybe elaborate on that and also of course present your work and their and your own context? Yes, hello everybody. My name is Jin. I'm from South Korea. I'm an independent producer work with Different artists and festivals in South Korea and also try to have more international connections Through the festivals and also working by working with the creative entities like artist companies Well, I think I can start my story from pandemic During pandemic after a few months is that few months is of realizing that okay? We cannot travel. We cannot meet each other. We can we cannot do anything I had a zoom meeting with other International friends mostly producers and we were talking about like hey, how are you? Are you okay? Are you surviving? Like how is your industry? How is your country and we got this idea of I mean like we Thought of this word that I think I'm not a producer anymore I feel like I'm a Unproducer Which is unproducing any like everything we don't really produce anything at the moment And we really like this idea of unproducing because it's helped me us To think about what is the producing and why we need to do that Why what was the reason we have been doing this producing for many many years and at the moment? we were kind of We were able to think of Pure the new in reason why we'd like to do it in the future and it helped us to go to the research project two different research project that I was able to initiate one was Unproducing workshop for the producers and the artist so that I give a cash I give a questions to the artists and producers What is the reason that you'd like to do art in in now and the future? and this is like a conversation of Finding a different reasons and the sentences to introduce yourself for the future careers and I think I was able to survive because of this workshop that I was able to initiate it and Yeah, also Yeah, we have a good music here and Also on the other side with other two producers of we were Yes, I really like it We did this research called new connections and next mobility Which is all about the international exchanges in the post-pandemic era because that was that started because I Miss my friends and I want to meet my friends in the future What is in different countries different cities? I don't want to be isolated. I don't want to like say no to everybody Okay, I'm not gonna see you anymore, but I want to meet them. I want to work with them I want to keep doing what I've been doing. So this next mobility research was actually of all about the new type of international Collaboration with the different tools and different methodologies after the development of the tech knowledge We're not really presenting the full size of production to the different cities but maybe we can choose like we say concept touring or Deep mobility which is like not only bringing the shows to one cities and coming back But try to have more cultural context and also try to understand and Try to stay a few more days to have like something like a workshop or the residency so that we can make this mobility itself more deeper and Also, we can also say this in a slow touring not like a fast tons of presenting the shows but try to have more slow touring in a way that we can leverage the compensation of international truings and we also Touched a bit about the green mobility with the different tools that we can Use for our future international collaborations and So in the first year of next mobility research We had this idea of different tools for helping us to be internationalized and keep ourselves Walking with different countries and cities But interestingly in a second year what we were thought what we were focusing on was actually the reason why we need to be internationalized and It gave us the moment to broaden our perspective to the sector which is under represented To the part of the society. We didn't really see before so that we can talk about We called it as a new narrative For example one artist as a researcher. She had this idea of Walking with the immigrants community and refugee community in South Korea And she thinks that it's really important international project and also the other artists. She had this idea of interviewing different woman in Asia versus under the Gender imbalanced situation so that she can collect those different voices from the females in Asian society so that she can try to make a more Solidarities with different narratives and different voices so For as I told you first year We were focusing on the tools and what we can do what we can use but the second year of the next mobility research We were focusing on okay, who's in the room We were thinking about that as I think it's also part of the sustainability is like sustainability in the manner of social and so social aspects social perspective and Yeah, I think that's all I can say at the moment Thank you all come back also to their to the narratives on the touring models there in in just a moment with Daniel but before that also we had a Good I would say entry point to the sphere project and to this Connection to the non-human early on with Andrea and and Maria So I would like all to ask you now to maybe Explain a bit about the the sphere project and also talk about how you work also with these aspects and especially the Technological also aspects of the of your work All right, I think if it's possible to use some slides it would help me a lot just to get Get going, but yeah, I'm a Stranberg holding and I'm a director Choreographer product mentor and also something as attractive as an administrator. I think I Will do a slightly scripted version because I tried to crunch in so much details in six minutes right now So I will faint So I'm based in Stockholm, Sweden and my background is a circus performer acrobat and juggler and I'm particularly interested in the meeting between circus technology economy and organization and If I met some people of you pre-pandemic Networking I was probably working as a project manager and director for city-to-city car and they're my under trilogy has been touring a lot. So Maybe you've seen some of those performances right now. I also if we go back a few slides I Can you say next next or something? But it doesn't matter. This is my company nowadays salvent on the wilderness So it's me and Sara the builder and it's an artistic collaboration between us We have a shared artistic leadership and are driven by developing alternative models for creative processes and performing arts production So and we try to find new formats and contexts for our art and we work locally nationally and internationally Often in collaborative projects So our experience with the circus has clearly shown the value of joint risk taken and it's also Permits our projects in other art forms such as dance visual art and theater. Just want to say that I'm gonna say that we haven't started some weird projects like the crypto circus project this year I will talk more about that and then we also have our studio them from tasselska platzin So it's a couple of slides here You can take next one and next one and it's just a space in central Stockholm where we have a lot of cross innovation fun gatherings presenting performances and so on and Me speaking about technology right now. We have developed also a Large-scale Language model we started one and a half years ago. It's specifically made for Performing arts and I think it's called educated eater and I think that this also goes together with with kind of the idea of How we can encourage Technological experimentations as a way to find new narratives and new ways of working This is right now if you go to the next slide educated eater It has been fed with with kind of my texts and my work from the last 10 years And it's a way to find new and other narratives from our own documentation of our own projects And it has landed into a new production that is called toss bot that were there were we're building right now actually it's called This is the still place presents tomorrow officially sucks, but today is the best toss bot but we just called it toss bot for the sake of simplicity and The idea with this with this performance is basically that that technology can help us We Revire how we see our own stories our own narratives and can make us just Look into our own practices and see new ways forward So it's not AI as some kind of dictatorship or anything like this AI as a very non-scalable personal assistant large model trained on only 200 pages of raw text And it's been working Amazingly well, if you go forward a little bit we can jump That's the ensemble of that and then we jump there the sphere. So in 2017 I started working with the idea of a parallel economy for the circus arts and the performing arts in general and this was This came to me when I started Investigate what blockchain token in technology could be for circus and We approached it a bit as an apparatus as you would do as a circus performer How can this blockchain thing the crypto the Bitcoin or Ethereum or whatever? How you want to refer to it help actually help us and not to kill our creative Creativity or just create like Financiation of Everything we do. How can it actually be something that rewires a digital infrastructure? So the sphere in 2020 became a creative Europe large-scale cooperation project And you've seen also this Maria and Andrea that presented a bit of their works that are now creating like Maria is creating a derivative work some kind of Next version of an already existing work And we also tried to revive past works from ten years ago or even longer ago we've been invited people to to try to revive works and we tried to find ways of Making a lot of people we tried to have all the stakeholders in our ecosystem like presenters theaters Artists technicians audience everyone participate in co and cook Decide what how can the next iteration of our production that has existed take Happen through new artists and then we try to build that economical system for that that capture different values economical financial values, but also other values How can we like transform transmit performances and create new performances? using new technology and As a Yeah, as a question that that That that you first sent out to me it was a question that basically was How was it formally they was quite interesting I have to see There's a strong need to deconstruct digital beliefs. So how would you how does the sphere answer to that and What I what I see or what I think it's that the current technological belief that we all have is that Internet social media the digital Invisible infrastructure is Comfortable it's something that we can just rely on and something that just works for us and something that that just encourages to share Stuff in Facebook groups or whatever, but it's actually feeding a very Strange business model that creates a genocide in Myanmar or that actually is Really provoking or making Weakening democracy I would say so we How does the sphere answer to to this I mean the sphere is an Experiment on something parallel or something else on another narrative on another relation to internet to the social media Invisible infrastructure because maybe if you revire the infrastructure the way that we socialized because I would say also that social media today is actually socializing us in a way to act in the favor of the platform so And we have to collect the data people ask us to collect the data To show this is the statistics. This is how many that that read my post This is the many who saw my trailer. This is the many who bought book tickets through Instagram, etc So we're stuck in that so we have a big Very important mission I would say to find ways to of course build your communities there If you want to but what's your migration plan and what is the way that you can Avoid that kind of data trap because we you have to work for what you want to do and not for what the platform wants you to do and That that that's what what toss bot the production the kind of AI that we built and also the sphere is about it's rewiring Finding new narratives through using and daring to be inside of technology. So This is my like Important note to bring Thank you, and you mentioned like building the community and I think that's a very good bridge To go towards you Teo You define yourself as a builder and my question to you was Your is was mentioning this how important also or how we can have this strategy also Working maybe more with their other sectors than than the performing arts sector and how do you see? For you, how can artists different stakeholders? Organization like yours or like your model also as a collective How do you see that as a as an interesting level? So Seeing from the point of view of performing arts So We're not working in the performing arts sector. We are architects And we define ourselves as architects builders because we basically build everything that we design so If you can move on the next So we are more interested in two spaces than buildings. It means that we are not Obviously building huge buildings. We are building small-scale interventions that can make Things happen in places. So we're more focusing on experiences than spaces. This is a former nightclub in Italy where we Slightly renovated it. So the community of the village can occupy this former nightclub to have some weekly market for example, so we move to places to places and also to the other slide so We are focusing more on the processes than the results. So how can this experience of transforming a space? That is usually painful, you know and dusty and the work of the craftsmen is not such a Nice work usually how do you transfer this experience of making into something that can straighten the community And to empower a local community to transform their own spaces So we come somewhere we gather the community we co-design with them and then we build it with them. So we for example, this is a Local association in Marseille city with the differently able people and we help them to transform their spaces Making furniture the kitchen and so on. So it's very tangible work if you can So basically what we say is that architects should stop building new buildings It's a resource consuming and they should just care about what is here and what is here and now it's not only spaces It's also resources. For example, we use a lot of reuse materials in what we do We harvest our own trees to cut them and to work with them So resources people of course as I said, this is a furniture we made with the asylum seekers in a place in the south of France to Help them to develop their garden. For example, this is natural paint technique coming somewhere from Sweden. Maybe I don't remember So I think our work is really more related to this notion of care and experience is more than building new buildings and design beautiful spaces So In the end, this is why we are building it's an excuse to straighten communities so they can be proud of themselves when they Do stuff that they usually don't so making is at the heart of what we do And this is also the crossroads between architecture social work and also art Which I think I will talk later on that We are also doing many things around the making processes like making movie Graphic design edition processes and everything but this I will talk later. I guess Thank you. Yeah, that was the last slide Daniel last last but not least We when we prepared this round table. I remember you mentioned Talking about leadership that was very important and I was wondering We talked about those small-scale intervention and obviously you work for a see a cat so the question of the scale here is is really important and how do you? What kind of strategies I would say do you develop within circa to address this question of leadership and also How do you see that in? cooperation also for programming Within within the company and and the work that you are conducting Okay, hi everyone. Sorry about my accent in in advance, but you've had a nice Australian over here translating for you And I work for circa so circa is quite a large-scale Australian circus based in Brisbane We travel internationally. We have a big market here in Europe and that Additionally, UK separate as well as the Americas Asia definitely Australia and New Zealand and I'm not going to claim to be an expert of any kind on sustainability and I don't think circa is either So I'm going to represent myself in this conversation and just talk from experience because I think that's useful and Circa has about 60 full-time employees equivalent There are anywhere from it sort of changes obviously from 23 to 28 full-time acrobats who are on salary So that is a commitment that circa made to the art form and to artists that they have Full-time employment with leave sick leave all of those things built in and they don't have to worry about their next gig As far as we know we are the only Australian circus functioning like that And I think we are still quite rare in the field especially at the scale at which we work Which is you know quite impressive Sadly, of course that creates a massive financial burden before you've done anything So every week we know that we've spent this much money before we've started the week So we have to tour notoriously We are lucky to receive a small percentage. It's hovers around 20% It changes sometimes less sometimes a few percent more of support from the Australian government and It's various funding arms, but everything else is really income that we need to make and that's from Turing. We have a relatively large-scale training facility in Brisbane Which focuses on very young Aspiring artists all the way to young professionals that are about to you know go into a circus like Circa We also have a Circa ability program which is focused on people with disability and how circus can bring New mobility and new ways of collaborating and thinking to their lives And that is also quite a unique program and in terms of leadership and sustainability I think this was in the context of a you know a pre-briefing conversation that we were having and I said that you know really For us to collaborate and for us to you know make a move on sustainability and that needs to be within the In the realms of of our industry. I mean I don't think we're gonna stop the ice caps melting I'm sorry everyone But I think that you know we can affect change and we can make a difference and it has to be supported by leadership I think you know, I've just told you about circus structure every single you know artists Organization venue is going to have a different structure and a leaders need to make choices about what what changes they can made Where they can adapt which is right for that structure and I think it's also about humility of saying You know, I don't know the right answer, but we're gonna try this for a while. Okay. We were wrong We need to do something else In terms of collaboration Circus got quite an interesting Well, it's not that unique as a lot of other circuses doing this kind of work But you know our our key line is what is possible in circus and that has led us to collaborate with symphonies with with operas We have three operas next year for example with individual artists with visual artists You know a whole range of people and I think that brings a different way of thinking and we've certainly you know when we play with bigger companies like opera Australia or you know opera de Leon or We're playing with the Luxembourg Philharmonic There is always an exchange where we can teach something you know They that you know the conductor will come out and he'll be Agitated because he has to listen to the sound of acrobats hitting the mats during his performance, which is you know often But in that space there is always you know by the end of the collaboration there is something learned in some exchange So I think we can all learn from each other in terms of what we're doing It's I think it's interesting to just mention and I'm not going to go on and on because I don't know that much But it is interesting to mention that you're on the sheets who has been the founding You know the founder of circa which is a 20 year old company now He's actually trained as a dramaturg and an opera director, and so he doesn't have a background in circus I mean obviously he does now, but in the way that we create shows It's he creates shows is very much a collaborative effort It really starts with an idea and he'll say to the acrobats You know, okay, I want something here that's rich and high and this and the acrobats will fill that space So it's it's quite a democratic way of working and that filters down into other things that we do and and and Just on the same sustainability note because there's an elephant in the room and we're an Australian circus internationally touring We of those sort of 25 to 28 acrobats will split into three companies We'll have a company that is based in Australia and touring Australian market We'll have a company here in Europe of say ten acrobats and another company moving around within that So we've just had the Edinburgh fringe We were there all month for the company of eight plus touring party But we had a company of ten playing in Zurich at the same time and those companies will tend to stay offshore Away from Australia for months at a time. We're not doing run-out tours And you know that is a strain on the acrobats But that's the way that we sort of try and manage this sustainability issue Because Australian markets cannot sustain circa And I I like that you referred also to humility I it resonates also from what Eric le noisette this need to be humble, but that's it When we look at Reconciling somehow our values and with our practices There's a question I would like to do to ask all of you and feel free to jump in and even to react to To what the others would say, but it's really a question on the articulation How we can articulate this wish for a more holistic approach to to sustainability and it's possible implementation so in to take Into account also our specific Context and specific values depending on where we are and we know also that cooperation is not easy because it's exactly that putting together people with different contexts and different values and My other question to that is like why does it matter and who does it matter to? It's not an easy one, but whoever feels like jumping in I Can jump in because this term holistic. It's very Maybe interesting, but what does it really mean and we often also use it in for instance in perform Europe And what we mean by it is it's just the acknowledgement that a situation is very complicated they will talk about the artistic cultural aspects the economy environment and yeah, it's just the acknowledgement that everything is interrelated And we know that from daily practice it's in the choices that we make We're all very environmentally engaged and we want to be a work in an environmental friendly fashion But you need to make a living you need to survive You need to make choices on a daily basis and every invitation to go someplace. It's always this balancing exercise I'm I'm I'm going to grab this opportunity and what is the impact? What do I gain from it and what is the negative impact on my life on environment? Etc. So we all know that that these issues are Interrelated because it's the the decisions that we make on a daily basis But this is only one level Perform Europe is so it also on another level If you're making these decisions for yourself, it also really matters in which context You are making these decisions and we saw it quite clearly that context really matters for instance, I Live and I work in Brussels. I used to work for the arts Institute there and we created this map It's called start to train and we made a map Starting in Brussels and mapping all the places that you can go to in six hours by train and it's quite huge in fact So this there's a good situation to be environmentally friendly But in for perform Europe yet huge discussions with the people working in isolated regions in the Balkans for instance with less access to this kind of public transport but also Less access to connections within the international ecosystem less access to funding So yeah, what's your priority when we talk to companies from this part of Europe? The environmental is very important, but in other contexts. It's no it's really breaking out of this isolation so it's very difficult to in this kind of international conversations to Focus on just one aspect another example You might have heard about it a couple of years ago the famous French choreographer Jérôme Bell said that we should all stop Flying and there was of course a huge riposte by other artists There was this Mexican company who wrote an open letter and said yes It's because you can say that because you have been flying all your life This is your privilege and it's kind of like in the colonial neocolonial stance that you ask for us that we do not fly anymore So it's I think it's impossible to isolate the environmental aspect from from the idea of social social justice so this is Yeah, the acknowledgement that it's so complicated on a personal level, but also on a systemic level So yeah, this is the issue I Don't really agree with the fact that complexity is an excuse not to make choices also and sometimes you say yeah It's complex so we don't know at some point you have to make decisions and I really like what Eric Lenoir said this morning about sometimes you say no and Even if it's complex You don't know you say no and as for example many times real estate companies. They come to us Even a cement company. They come to us a few weeks ago the Rothschild Foundation wrote to us and to all these people we say no and we know it's tough. We have paid minimum wages in France It's been 10 years. We're doing this. So it's a huge commitment. And yes Yet we we have to say no at some point. We have to stop Hiding from this complexity and I don't know and I think it's not a post-colonial Neocolonialism stance. It's about generation and it's not Like you don't take plain idea. It's I mean that's obvious It's not about being Mexican or French or whatever. It's about also to a collective decision So I think we should stop doing things some things and even if it's hard We have to stop and say no to Clients no to situations and for example, this is what we try to do and it's not easy, of course It's maybe not sustainable as a practice to keep this thing But still I think I like what Eric Lenoir said just a brief reaction before I I don't want to take all the floor But embracing and acknowledging the complexities one thing But I completely agree that the only answer to that can be sharpness You cannot tackle all these issues at the same time That's not a thing and saying no is very important But also what you all said here We had kind of like a very interesting spectrum of concrete Experiments that tackle very specific things and creating community in this place the deep mobility research I think this is the way to go also your experiments with how can we infuse new digital technologies in our economy I think this is the sharpness that we really need in this complexity the very precise setup experiments and learn from these experiments Together also with kind of like an ethical standard as you say, so that's I think a way forward out of the complexity Yeah, I was I was kind of freely associating a little bit but in the sphere we have We tried to tackle the concept of touring by By doing this this experiment we called it the mega vote actually so it was we had this Performances that we transformed into digital commodities basically almost in the crypto Commodities and we did a kind of fundraising where Globally people that were already like into that Crypto scene, let's say it's a weird weird new audience that that we can say bad and good things about but they Funded one performance and then all the stakeholders that we had collected. It was 800 People from Lithuania, Italy, Germany, Sweden Etc. I'm saying in Portugal and so on they it was people that were audience that were were artists and so on They could vote basically on which which artists are going to make the next iteration of this performance and what happens then is that it starts a new social a new Collaboration between the former artist and the new artist and the new art artist is based somewhere else The new artist is creating a work that it stems from another work, but it creates local Working opportunities local presentations and also the former Attraction get spills over to the new work somehow so it also gets finds a new kind of weird market where where It's it's not like instead of touring, but it's it's actually adding value That's also of course once that local place wants the original artist also come and perform But then alongside that one this local artist can present their work and and therefore it it actually creates It gives more More than just a production coming to a city presenting for an audience. It actually creates a local Economy community like Thing and and I think this has been very fruitful because we see that that these people have done this derivative works or the original works Have both benefited from this this experiment as One way of maybe Adding some kind of sustainability note to like touring at least we you go there And but you also have a new context created a new economy created around your work a Good Input but it doesn't work for everyone. It's not like in city. I should not cannot do that and not Have 800 artists or 8,000 artists just being locally Everywhere creating new performances that is copies of other performance. It wouldn't work, but maybe you can find some way We're actually exploring that right now No, but I think it's an interesting question this touring thing I mean we've been touring out of Australia for you know 20 years Like obviously more locally originally, but now really more than ever We we actually tour more than any other Australian performing arts company and that includes the large-scale companies like the opera the ballet City Dance Company, so we are out of there and I think it's you know We've been thinking about sustainable touring for a long time because obviously freight is incredibly expensive and slow So we really most shows we have we actually have matte storage all over the world We have local circuses store them for us and they can use them while we're not you're using them And then we pick them up in the UK. We've had mats in LA, etc. Etc. And we try and share equipment where we can most of our shows are very low on apparatus like mainly aerial Which can travel in you know in luggage And you know these kinds of considerations costumes are lightweight, you know all of that stuff we use you know It's been something that's been sort of you know Programmed into circa for a long time, which maybe some circuses are just thinking about now and I think when we think about Sustainable touring I mean we all want longer seasons, you know Ideally circa would be in one place for a month or two at a time and that would be much better for the environment But that is incredibly hard to you know find venues at that scale that can do that And of course there are artistic directors who want to change things up have something different You know one of the biggest Challenges that we have is of course we want to we want to tour sustainably, you know We you know we'll speak to a presenter and say okay Can you help us build a tour? You know some places you know a local tour some places are much better than this than others this place like Canada Where they've always had to rely on a network. Otherwise, they can't get artists, you know to do their Locals But you know time and time again you get you come up against you know Oh, well we want to be the only ones in this region to show this show You know we you know you can't have this anywhere else in whatever country and and this this has to change We can't you know, we're doing our best. We're you know happy to be flexible We can scale shows up we can scale them down to fit into much smaller venues We've just created a sort of touring version of our main show humans 2.0 Which has no aerial and it's the same day open to facilitate smaller venues like dance venues that don't have the rigging and You know and and or smaller venues that don't can't give you a whole day to bump in you know So we're as adaptable as we can but we can't you know I can't we also on top of that, you know The repertoire is so massive like the company that's touring humans 2.0 in Europe at the moment has five shows in repertoire And we could probably throw them into other shows So if you have an artistic director that says you can't do humans 2.0 here, you know It's got to be something we can go to the next town and go okay We're gonna do something else but it's still it's still a huge barrier for us in terms of sustainable touring You know to say okay, we'll line up a tour in you know in the Netherlands and it's like okay great We've got a lot of interest, but there's no bump in you know We can only pay you know this much fees, you know, which you know It's it's this constant challenge and I think that again coming back to the collaborative. We all all parties in this in this Ecology have to work together and probably communicate a bit better Just a thought experiment for Syrica for instance if if Syrica would change change the business model to not having all of these these employees It's not not just Create precarious situations for all Australian circus performance But for the sake of what if the profit made from touring would go into a common a common pool basically of Cash and then you could see how can we create a new circuit performance? Decentralized still has the quality that we want to label with with Syrica But new artists from different areas around the world can actually participate in creating that you sing That common pool and then if then that performance starts and then a certain percentage of that Revenue from that would go to the common pool New new voting could happens or new new decision-making could happen and then but how would you then? The interesting thing here is how can you keep quality and still open up to your whole because you have such a big ecosystem of? Stakeholders of audience all over the world and so on they want to see your so how can the brand itself? Exist and still be qualitative, but you can invite Plural plurality is important impossible to say but anyway you do you do that through some kind of Weird business model you would never do that of course But it would be or I'm not gonna say that but it would be very interesting to see would it survive would the brand survive and would you still? Stand behind the productions artistically and etc because it could change it could lessen the traveling by 80 percentage whatever it would be interesting true You know it's interesting because I'm my background is actually visual arts And so I've always worked in exhibition making which is far worse than touring and circus I can tell you that the amount of waste is horrific But I think that you know it's interesting coming to the circus world and really learning more about circus is how Distinct each style is and we are distinctively Australian and I think that's why people are interested in seeing us And of course you know and distinctive with the artistic you know director etc. So decentralizing I mean the French style is stunning You know it's no soft balls. It's very beautiful. It's very contemporary dance You know and that's a very different style than what we perform. So it would become like a monopoly You're essentially you know, it would become a brand that then you know You took over the world and everyone was just in circle and circle was circus and I don't think that's that's good for anyone You know, we've had discussions particularly during COVID. I think everyone thought about this The ensemble was actually staying with our good friends here at a rigour Because they were stranded for several weeks is you know actually having a full circus that you know is here in Europe for example, like every time we go to To London, which is fabulous But it costs an absolute fortune for a presenter to put all of our acrobats in you know per diem's You know accommodation all of these things flights if you had a surcha that was made up of acrobats from the UK None of these fees would apply because they'd be in their hometown and they would be performing circus shows But it becomes a different thing, right? We're talking about a totally different beast. I Can I can no solution to it? Yeah, I don't like to add one more thing because in this table interesting me. There is no programmer I don't know why but I think not only the triers and like The triers of the shifting the structure of the artist company like circa but also the responsibilities and like Responsibility of the programmer has been shifted as well because I think still the audiences has a right to see the good quality arts in the world and to do that artistic directors and programmers should Be more careful should working more to see and find the good reason of bringing these artists to their festivals and venues And this is also linked to the sustainability. I think and also not only okay. I like this show I I'm sorry that I'm saying like this, but I like the show I'm gonna bring this to my festival, but like we need to be more careful. We need to be more more sensible for for which show to be present which narrative that we need to present and like Maybe back to what Jeremy Bell said. He is able to stop Flying because he's Jeremy Bell and he's still walking internationally with his network But what if the emerging artists? What if the narrative that we need to deal with in the festival in the venue? What if the Marginalized people in the world still we need to present more like how can we make it more sustainable in a way? That's also my question. So yeah, I think we can say no But also before saying no, we also think we need to think about our responsibilities of what to present But who is in the room as I said before that's also maybe we can talk about this as well Yes, I think it's a very good point and you started to to to go into more like these are ethical considerations And I can also take an example coming from the music sector and relating to what you were saying about this flying thing We have more and more festivals in France at least that start to say that they will not invite artists that are flying anymore And if you think just about France like we have Territories which are insular which are at the other side of the world and those artists cannot come to Even central France without flying. So those considerations are of course to be to be taken Into account and not looking just at the transport modes But really at all the social and economical issues and I don't know if there's anyone from the European Commission here, but We also see now There's a Report that just came out about greening the creative Europe program and with a very for me problematic Definition of what green mobility is and really just focusing on the mode of low carbon transportation But totally forgetting about the rest. So that's also our point so because of course I have way more questions than The time that we have but I wanted to come also to this question of the role of funders and also linked to this ethical and we see Sustainability issues that are often tackled separately or in in silos and Do you see maybe or do you have some examples or do you see some? Models that could have a more let's say intersectional approach to funding also and trying to address those issues in a more Again holistic way It why it doesn't have to be you are starting all the time Of course in the research we thought about these things So I have something ready if you talk about the role of funders with regards to all these Complexities, I think there are two major points to be made first is they need to critically examine their own funding models and Evaluate them and ask the question in what ways are our current funding system contributing To the problems to the issues to the unsustainabilities the economic level Environmental level etc. In what way are we contributing are the models contributing to this precarity that we are talking about For instance, I'm not a big fan of of quantitative criteria For instance because it's really stifles innovation. We have seen that so critically reexamine the current funding models It's one thing but the other thing is also reshape the funding systems in order to really contribute to this system change that we have been talking about We've heard so much about these interesting experiments. It's a different kind of criteria. It's not Excellent artistic projects. It's really funding these projects that we think have a potential for development For our ecosystem in the future and that's an interesting way of looking and if you look at transition management literature Transition literature transition science. It's always about the necessity of having these experiments. So I think Funding should also switch a bit more to these experimental research and development approach to make it possible and also Well learn from these experiments invest also in connections networking between Everyone here in the room also dealing with this. It's not only funders that need to do this It's an important role also for the networks It's important to bring these experiments together learn from that and then ultimately mainstream these New funding systems and I think that's there already good practices there. Just one example The culture moves Europe mobility grants Who have been developing from the opportunist framework several iterations now the whole system with the with the top ups for mobility adds a top up More funding if you travel in an environmentally sustainable way Add a top up for accessibility purposes Adds a top up if you want to bring your family. This is a very concrete simple thing Integrated in a mainstream funding instruments tackling these diverse issues that we have been talking about So I think we already see some things shifting that we are slowly learning for the experiments Yeah, these are some takes that funders can take Daniel Yeah, just talking about the role of funding I think you know We've had to be very creative about how we think about you know where money is coming from especially when the whole world shut down and So we had we had every single show from literally, you know The light globe that lit the table where the first idea came from for a production all the way through to you know Making costumes build, you know the freight boxes everything all the way through to performing and what the carbon footprint of every single production was So we did that analysis and we've got a lot of data there, but then what do you do with that? So, you know, ideally what we would like to do is Something more than tree planting I'm not gonna go down the rabbit hole of tree planting because it's it's fraught and it should really you know I think only be used to supplement all the other things you're doing but think of a way to Monetize a carbon neutral show if you could say that we are actually a carbon positive company and you know What we've done is not just offset but we're doing all of these things and then that be a product to sell and that Monetize, you know become a you know an income stream and then it feeds itself But it's a lot harder to do Then just a propose and we've looked at it so many different ways and you know again coming back to presenters It's not always their preference or priority either So, you know, we're thinking about different ideas, but it's it's very complex You want to add on that? Maybe on the Regenerative even Because I think regarding to funders There is something that we always talk about is also desires because if you look at this collapsing world I think you don't want to change it You want to stay in bed and watch Netflix all day and as Eric Lenoir said in the beginning of this keynote You start to feel depressed and that is not a feeling that makes you change things. So The one just before this is a great book of an art critic and This is something that we want to talk about is that we need to give the people the desire to change things and Changing things mean also to fight and to fight Neoliberalism to fight what is happening now and then this is also part of the work that we do. So the funders In our case, they come to us They have a brief something to do like for example that we want a few tables done by the river. We have 15,000 then you have to work with them to create other desires to twist this brief and to turn it into something else like for example You want tables, but maybe we can do tables on the movie and in the movie We talk about political subject like welcoming foreigners in the area and then you start to pull the strings of the project and at the beginning it was picnic tables and then it became an entire World of discussions arguments controversies with the inhabitants and everything so We had to make the funders and their clients Desire for something else and to bring them to something else. Maybe there is other slides, but I don't want to Yeah Yeah, that's all I want to talk about this. It's going to take too long. I Think that's a really important point I just want to jump in there and say like we need to be having a good time because it's pretty dark out there I read the Guardian every week and I don't have a lot of hope I think you know when you walk into a really good show it just transforms your experience and it can really lift you So I think really importantly keep making really good work You know don't squander the money that you have on making you know work that doesn't inspire is an exciting or surprising You know, I think that's really core of what circuit does is to make something that shifts things first a little side note just Concerning Mark Fisher because it's interesting the artist Joshua Cittarella who's been like looking into the radicalization of young people on Instagram He has infiltrated this this troll factory. It is basically and and Lex infiltrated and created Mark Fisher memes post-capitalistic Memes coming from this kind of nihilistic Let's say right wing Accounts radical is say radicalizing a youth towards post-capitalistic notions and ideas in a very Interesting way, and I'm thinking if this is an example of Something that fund like the funding bodies can can consider also because we are getting Too many Productions performances and artists spending the work on doing pedagogical performances about Climate change based on statistics or something and this is not what the audience maybe needs to see and it's not what artists have to create but the but the way that a lot of Applications and and and the funding ones are phrasing themselves. It's actually creating a weird a Weird kind of art for the sake of getting money from the funding bodies and here We need to have clever infiltrators that can actually Make artists also realize that you can you can apply for something and it can be Climate positive perhaps or at least concerning Because we considered with sustainability without talking about that or like because it can do something And then it can talk about something else And I think this is a toast little mess that I see in in Sweden at least that that there's so many Productions coming up talking about the issues straight forward like this. Is that what the artist intended? originally or is it something that has kind of Is lurking in the back of the head in order to be able to perform I Trosed to be the last one because I think my answer is like questionable but Yeah, you asked me you asked us about the role of the funder in a sustainable way, but I would say like So for last 14 13 years of my practices I've been working a lot with Europeans and UK artists. Do you know the reason why? Because it was easy because it was easy to get the funding it was easy to have a communication and I think I chose something easy and I realized that I don't really know I'm saying it very honestly. I don't really know about Asia in fact and After I realized that I don't have like enough information knowledge about our neighborhood. I Tried I tried to Understand more and try to invest what I have tried to share what I have with other fellows in Asia Asian countries and What I would like to say is actually maybe we can also think about the role of the funder for sure That's important. But also I would like to say that we don't We let's not make the funders to decide which way to go and try to find other Spaces that we'd like to go we need to go that's That's Yeah, that's my answer. Sorry for this questionable answer Now let's say Unfortunately, I've been way too optimistic and now we have to to close the discussion so we will not take any questions, but Of course, you are welcome to come and there and ask questions to our speakers We will have time during lunch and this afternoon as well Thank you all for being so Concentrated and thank you a lot of the translators I hope we didn't speak too fast And see you in a bit. Thank you Hi, everyone. It's me again the practical information Can I have your attention again? Lunch Lunch is important. Okay. We're gonna have lunch outside. It's not rainy It's a bit cold, but it's fine. If you want to bring back the lunch inside. It's okay So the lunch is now what I suggest to you is that you walk and you go and grab your lunch at the end of the line Because at the beginning is dessert. Okay, so the main course is that the and this was the third morning sessions of fresh online with streaming radio while The program of the afternoon is being listed for everybody. I want to thank you to listen to this very interesting morning that was here about Substitutability I want to remind you that soon there will be a podcast of this streaming session I want to Remind you also that there will be a publication on these three days that will be published by Sarah Abdul Bush how was there as a guest editor of the future publication of fresh I want to remind you also that you can find the Postcast around fresh that was produced by Mike emus and also all other Publication and resources in the link of Circus radas.org I want to thank Kinga Keshkes who was for us very very Helpful person of course arts and I was a living all this Project of Circus Radar here everybody was fantastic all technicians of la vilette Siak du monde and here village to help us to settle our small but necessary technical Computers and mix places. So I'm all living French journalist It is almost time to go to it. It's One o'clock five minutes p.m. Here in Palouse. Okay. Thank you to Clément who recorded all of all Thank you To book are to who was there to help us making waves is working with all around to make you Listen to it. Thank you and soon in in the podcast have a nice afternoon Thank you all art scene a check with Suna and all the founders and partners to do this and I have a bit of an information which is very important for the future Because you want to know where the next fresh will take place, right? Do you want to know? Okay, you're still alive Okay, so Bum so future fresh we're gonna have a fresh treat in the UK in 2025 In June which will be co-organized in great Yarmouth together with other arts and we're very happy about that you people are and The next fresh circus will take place in Sweden in the cities of Botrka and Stockholm in February 2027 and it will be co-organized with subtopia in collaboration with Rick stay out there Voila. Thank you. Have fun