 Alright, so we're about to begin an interview in downtown Montreal. First question, should you please state your full name? My full name is Julian Dion. I'm from Sudbury, Ontario. My home local is local, 6500. It used to be a very big local, 18,006. It's now about 2,500. And what did your parents do when you were a child? My dad was an accountant and my mother would help him. Okay. And you, for fun, what were your interests as a child? What did you do fast the time? Playing, you know, like most other kids. He's a very social guy. We all played outside. Okay. And how about in school, did you have specific strengths or interests or things you wanted to... I was good in math. Very good in math and spelling. We got 90s. Nice. Yeah. And going further into your education, did you know exactly what you wanted to do growing up? No, I didn't. But after high school, I went to a place called Centennial College and took a technicians course there, automotive technician, which is what brought me to go apply at INCO, because they said they had an apprenticeship for me. So I was in there. They used to do medicals then, but not me. No. I guess they needed an apprentice. So apprentice mechanic at that time? Yeah, apprentice mechanic. Yeah. And what do you remember from that first job? Well, that wasn't my first, but... First with INCO? First time with INCO, yeah. Okay. First in the mining business. So what do you remember? What I remember is, wow, it was fantastic. Now I had a job, because in those days, if you hired on for INCO, you were there for life. And it's not like your generation. Were you there? Contracts. Yeah, contracts and contracts. So that's really what turned me on the most, and what I remember the most. I remember my first day underground. They did two days of training. And underground is always drafty. Always drafty. And two days of training in a drafty drift. Okay. Drift, I don't know if you know what a drift is, but it goes with the old body. Crosscut goes against. A drafty drift. And after a while, you get pretty cold. Your hands just freeze up. And so a second day, I was properly dressed. Because, you know, they tell you, well, underground, it's always warm there, yeah. It's always around 54, I guess, somewhere around there. And I thought 54 was going to be warm, you know? But it isn't. Not when you're standing in a drift. And of course, it's high humidity. So I remember that very well after training. And so then you were gloves the next day? Absolutely. And so for your entire life, you worked as a mechanic, Franco? My entire life, yeah. Okay. And when did you decide to join the union? Or was that automatic when you joined Inco? It's a close shop. Okay. If you worked there, you were part of the union. Of the United Steelworkers at that time? Yeah. And when did you decide to get involved with the United Steelworkers? Or why? Why and when? And that's a very good question because a lot of people who became stewards, union stewards, or occupational health and safety reps, all that kind of stuff, do it for the same reason. Their boss pisses them off. And say, okay, okay, I'll get you. And I did. Does it usually upset the bosses if you? Well, if you're a steward. Yeah. Now, if you're a steward, you're not the boss's friend anymore. You're actually his enemy because if anyone has a grievance, they'll come and see you. And now you're talking to the boss as not as a worker and boss. You're talking to the boss as a griever and someone who's going to solve, you're talking to him on a different scale. And Inco didn't train their bosses very well because they're too valuable. They couldn't spend the time training them. And that was a big peeve of the supervisors. We knew more than them. We had the occupational safety act. We knew that inside out, upside down, labor relations act, you know, employment standards. We knew all those and they didn't. So a lot of them didn't feel very comfortable with that, especially when our pays were going up all the time. This was flat. They came in time when the early rated guys, especially the ones on bonus, were making more money than the boss. I think that's something, eh? Yeah. Because they weren't unionized. Well, because the company didn't give them a raise. Were there specific actions that early on that your boss did which are why it pissed you off? Oh, yeah. There's one I remember very well. There's different minds. I worked at Stobey mostly, but when I went to Creighton Mine, my boss then, a man by the name of... I don't know if I can say the name. Except to you? Except to you? His name was Al Keller. First day in the job, he says, Well, Deon, welcome. He says, things are going to go just fine between you and I. He says, as long as things are going my way. It's like putting a flame in front of me. Yeah. Now my challenge is to blow out the flame. And that's really the one action that probably caused me to go the other way. Okay. So you still like the job, but you just didn't necessarily like the management? I love my job. Mechanic is a good job. You're dirty, so what? You clean up after, you know? It's like a plumber, right? You got to clean up after. Absolutely. And in those days, gloves, protective gloves like the nurses wear and all that kind of stuff. It just wasn't around. We didn't use it. Now they all use it. So the best you could do is a barrier cream so that the cracks of your fingers weren't full of grease. And if you ever handle motor oil, it's quite dirty. It's hard to wash off. Yeah, it's hard to wash off. So you've got to wear a barrier cream and that kind of stuff. Okay. And so once you joined as a steward? Yeah, I began as a steward. And in the same year, I became a health safety commitment. Were there anything, any specific rules, regulations that you worked to bring upon as a health and safety regulator? No, a lot of people did both jobs, you know? Okay. And with that, the union spent a lot of time training me. I mean, there's my big thank you. It couldn't have been without them, without sale workers. They probably still be in the hole, you know? But when the school, in those days, you had steward school and steward school was a week long. You had a health and safety school. That was a week long. And took a lot of courses, did a lot of stuff, and then I became an instructor. So I got to teach other guys to be just like me. Okay. And help them recognize who they're talking to. So throughout your career, do you remember a specific time where you were either working on a job or a specific mind, and it was dysfunctional or very challenging? Well, I also had a lot of training as a mechanic. So that part was pretty good. I remember my boss one time, I was working on a torque converter, like in a car. A little big urban. And my boss says, I'm underneath and he's on the side and he says, hurry up, hurry up, hurry up. I need this machine real bad. I said, Rainey, Rainey was his name. I said, take it easy. I'll get it done. You want it today? You want it tomorrow? Tell me. He says, you know, these studs, they break easy. I'm a torque converter. No, no, but I need the machine. Then I said, oops, I just broke one. Now they don't have the tool to take it out. So the job took an extra day. You've got to train them too, you know. Yeah. Now, I'm just trying to think here. Yeah, I'd like to see, I'd like to hear your opinion on or your take on from the beginning of your career to the end. What are the big issues that were there in the beginning that you'd say got a lot better throughout your career and issues regarding, you can look at the labor aspect of it? One of the bigger ones is dust. Some mines are dusty. Luckily, hard rock mines are not that dusty, whatever that means, because no dust is good. No dust can be harmful. So that big improvement, the way that, the way the mining methods, like before it was, you know, you'd have a jack-laid drill. I don't know if you know what that is, but I don't know. A drill. Like that. And anyways, mining methods changed an awful lot. So we went from jack-laid to panel mining rather than drill out 12-foot ground or whatever, you know. We went to panels which were like 200 feet high and you drilled from the top, not the bottom. So that was quite a bit safer. And brought up production, right? And brought up production, but now you didn't have any small falls of ground. You had some big falls of ground. To your mine panel, you take it out. There's still one here. Go around. You do the other one, do another one. So they're staggered, right? Sometimes calls, I think it's staggered panel mining. Very common in Elliott Lake where they had lots of dust. What did dust ever affect you? I don't know. Yeah, I guess it could take a while to realize it. I'm still, I just still breathe pretty good. Yeah, yeah. I think dust affects everyone. Yeah, absolutely. It's just a matter of amount. Yeah, and type. It's a matter of controlling. And type, absolutely. Because nickel dust is not smooth around it. It's like little birds sticking out here and there, you know. And so when that gets in your lungs, the stuff that's small enough to get down deep in your lungs, when that gets in your lungs, it scratches the inside of your lungs. It's like asbestos. Yeah, something like it, yeah. Asbestos is, I've found asbestos mostly on the outside of the lung. Nickel would be on the inside of the lung. Now, so nowadays you still, you don't work the retired, but you're still a member of the, you may still work this. Yeah, we have a group called Source. It's an organization of active retirees. Okay. And we have chapters here and there. And that's what this conference is. I'm at a solar conference. Oh, okay. For retirees. So what kind of things do you work on at the moment? Well, we try and of course get more members and all that kind of stuff because that's important. I mean, we need money to operate. And we're trying to, what we need to do is politicize our members. You know, if you think about seniors is the biggest voting block in Canada. Even in my organization, I can't control that block, you know. But really that's what we need to do is politicize. Teach people why. There's lots of good videos out there. Like if you've ever seen or heard of Mouseland, it's a speech by Tommy Douglas. Okay. Terrific. Very simple. If you don't get the point out to that video. But you've got to get the people in for them to see it. Yeah. Yeah. And actually with the directors I was just speaking with, what kind of theme was the challenges for the next generation. Kind of get the millennials to hop on the labor, the labor boat and really. That training is probably most important. That's all guys. We went through it, but we know what needs to be fixed and that kind of stuff. Our young guys, because of the economy, don't know much because they're all on contract. Lots of them are on contract. And there's no guarantee of lifetime work anymore and that kind of stuff. So it's kind of like working piecemeal. We've got to teach those guys that the road wasn't always paved. We didn't necessarily pave the road, not my generation, but just before us. And so we just widened the road a little bit and negotiated the better stuff. We've got to teach them. Otherwise they don't know where things come from. It was there all the time, forever and ever. No, it wasn't. It's things people can't take for granted. No, they can't. And just like often I hear in the mining industry itself, but along the labor aspect of the mining industry as well, it's things that people use every day that affect them in their lives every day, but they don't necessarily know or understand where it comes from or why mining is so important. When we talk about something as simple as a phone, you know? Yeah. Well, to give you an example of bad education, in Elliott Lake they had a lot of silica. And silica was hard on the lungs, right? Silicosis. So there was so much silica that the management handed out respirators to the people going underground. Of course they had to breathe this aluminum dust, Macintyre aluminum prophylaxis is what they called it. So they had to inhale aluminum dust to go down because some bright-eyed guy, management guy, who stayed up late at night, we were working for the Macintyre Foundation discovered that aluminum has an affinity to silica. They want to stick together. And if now it's aluminum and not silica, well, then you won't have any more silicosis, right? Real smart. Because they didn't consider that aluminum may cause things like dementia and Alzheimer's, you know? And again, in my group we're helping with that. We're going to have a clinic and we're not scientists, but it's not hard to ask someone what his symptoms are, his or her, and draw conclusions from that. And are there still a lot of people that seem to be coming out with these symptoms caused from labor and mining or things like that? Yeah, my generation. Your generation is still coming out. Yeah. And would you say after that, however, it got drastically better? Well, yeah, except that that's one of those that take so long, so long to... So it can take 30 years. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, so that's a real tough one. But we'll get it. The gold miners were in the same situation as the uranium miners and the same kind of stuff. They got recognized, not for this, but they got recognized for cancers and all that. We had an old guy by the name of Bomer Sige. I don't know if someone might have mentioned his name at some point. Who's the health safety guy? A real bull, you know? He just wouldn't let go. We've had some great, great people in steel. And I got to learn from everyone of them. I'm the right age. Now, in your opinion, there's no wrong answer here, but in your opinion, are there any events, people, disasters, anything whatsoever that you think must be mentioned when talking about the history of the natural resources in Canada, the history of mining or the history of mining in regards to the United Steel Workers? Mining, logging, and so, yeah. Yeah, but mostly for us, mostly mining metallurgy for this project. Any one instance? Yes, it could be, well, I'd say the past, within the past 100 years, it could be very recent, it could be when you were younger, it could be before you. But anything you think is worth mentioning, whether it's a positive thing, a negative thing, someone, something that you think has defined in a way, or changed in a way. In my eyes. Working at INCO, these had, I don't know, how many fatalities, there were so many fatalities that we had to have an inquest committee to go investigate and present the inquests and that kind of stuff. And so, I remember one time we had four in one shot. We got crushed, we were working on top of a cage and elevator, and the muck came out of a loading pocket and crushed four guys to death. The one who struck me the most is the guy who had changed shifts. He wasn't supposed to be there. A young guy, a young person, bang, and so fast. I don't know if you know what a runner muck is, but think a diarrhea, a runner muck. You ain't going to stop it. And yeah, so that, I think INCO had like 700 deaths in the last 100 years. I may be off by 100 or two years, but something like that. And do you think at one point these deaths affected the future of mining for better in the sense that, you know, they were forced to change a lot of rules, regulations, laws? Better in terms, yeah. The only problem is, is when you go to an inquest and the inquiry makes recommendations, there's nothing in any legislation that says those recommendations have to be implemented. So there's a big, big hole there. There's an, I used to be on the inquest committee and presenting at inquest and after the inquest they always give you the recommendations, you know, and some have been fixed already and some have not. And next thing you know, they just disappear. And the last thing with that is how long it takes in Ontario to get an inquest. The Ministry of Labor in Ontario takes their stab at it, but they won't prosecute until about a year after. So while that prosecution is going on, there's no inquest going on. So the families, families sometimes wait three years to know how, I shouldn't say how, well, to know how their families died, their loved ones. It's terrible. It's so aggravating for them. It sounds a bit like the West Ray Mining disaster. Very much so. Yeah, with the inquisition and how, I'm actually just talking about it earlier, how there was only, I think, one person criminally charged since the 13 years that the law has been implemented. Yeah, that's absolutely right. And that multiple there, the four guys, there was a, what happened, well, the loading pocket there ran over because of many things. When they come in and they charged the man who had opened a valve to control the muck, they charged him with four counts of criminal negligence, causing death, right at the mine. They wouldn't do that to management. Never, never. Of course they wouldn't have been doing that job. Yeah. But think about it, you're there, you change, you're going to work, and the cops show up and they handcuff you and take you out. Isn't that nice? And was he, was he sentenced? No, no, we, still workers have what we call the striking defense one. We had a very good lawyer, Leo did. And he got off. I was forced enough to have that, that particular lawyer at my house. So, did I pick his brain? Yeah. I bet. Now, I often ask this question too, and it'd be interesting to see throughout your career, how present or absent have women been throughout your career, and has that changed? It changed, I think it was 1978 when they changed the Mining Act. I shouldn't say when you change the Mining Act, but in the case of the Prison and Health Safety Act, we placed the Mining Act. In there, women were not allowed to work underground. So that law got changed, and only around that era did women start working underground, except in a federal workplace. Because they weren't covered by the provincial legislation, which is what I'm talking about now. So, yeah. Yeah, so not until 1978. In Ontario. 75 or 78. Because it was always considered bad luck, right, before that? There's like a tradition that women weren't allowed underground. Management always said that, because we don't want a woman to be molested underground. Incidentally, the Corners Act came about as a result of supervisors not wanting to be dumped in all passes. Oh no, something happens. They're going to dump me. I'm sure that's why, and I've heard this, but I'm sure that's why the Corners Act has that stipulation in there. I'll finish with one question, and that's if you're speaking to someone much younger like a student, and they were thinking of getting into the mining industry, what would you tell them? What would be your piece of advice or life lesson? I'd say be careful which mine you go to work for. There's, you know, let me use this line. You know, at Inco, we had the best supervisors in the world, Barnard. We had the other guys too. And bad guys make the good guys look bad. And I often use that quote with management. That's the truth. Doesn't mean you're a bad guy. You know, that guy's making you look bad. And that'd be my advice. Be careful where you go to work. I mean, the big mines, like Valley, they have better safety programs, and there's an old saying that everyone pays for a safety program whether or not they have one. And, yeah, so big mines, big companies, a lot of safety. We brought Inco kicking and screaming and dragging. We brought them to the 20th century, you know, and trained them to the point where the union, their trains management, and workers together. And the management pays. No, that's pretty good. So they were doing very well there until Valley bought them. After Valley, things went backwards. And what do you think of, because this is also something that comes up in a lot of these interviews, what do you think of the many of the Canadian, big Canadian metallurgy or mining companies that have either disappeared or have been bought out by, I feel like, sort of, for example, Valley or Rio Tinto, Arsala Metal. What are your thoughts on that? Well, I wish our Canadian resources would stay in Canadian hands. When Valley bought, I mean, Valley buying Inco, the nickel is such a small part of their, all of their holdings. Yeah, it's maybe one, one and a half percent. So it's really, it's not very much. And Inco, in comparison to Valley, were angels, you know. Of course it was, I'm serious. Of course it was a long relationship there and took years to, you know, to mature and all that. And one of the first things that Valley did when they bought is, they took, I think it was the payroll, the Senate, the Toronto from Calgary. And, you know, they piece, you know, some departments, you know, this one, they're still doing it in Brazil, you know, HR or whatever it is. And they're not right at hand, you know, or you ask someone something. I mean, the president's not in Sudbury. Yeah, they're centralized a lot, a lot of it outside of Canada. So they could have merged with the Falcon Bridge. What used to be Falcon Bridge, would have been a lovely, and you hear that a lot in Sudbury. I don't know why they didn't sell the Falcon Bridge. Oh, well. So they make decisions, and they're so remote from the decisions that they don't see. I also heard that when they first flew into Sudbury on a chopper, they flew over parking lots, company parking lots, and someone said, oh, look at those nice cars they got. They must be making too much money. Thank you very much. So, no, I, yeah. What was that question again? It was just your thoughts on many of these Canadian companies either disappearing or being bought out. Or, for example, value like, yeah. Or free trade. Yeah. All kinds. I mean, you've got lots of woods, a lot of wood in BC, but it's not necessarily processed in Canada. And that's a good one, because Canada keeps getting sued by the states if we do, as soon as we do anything in terms of free trade, and we're not winning. I was on a Governor-General's conference in 1987, and what we did, we toured 15 groups of 15. We toured Canada. And what we're supposed to do is bring a report back to the Governor-General, right? And we visited, in Quebec, the most perfect cow in the world. You've got to find that funny. I thought it was pretty funny. Big, big cow, and it was a beautiful cow. I don't know cows. Yeah, what determines that it's the most perfect cow? I don't know. Not a clue. Didn't ask. Didn't want to know really. So, we asked a farmer, 87. We asked him, well, Mr. Farmer, what do you think of free trade? He said, well, let me put it to you this way. Smart old guy, you know? He says, if you have a field and you put a fence in the field, right in the middle of the field, you've got one cow on one side and 200 on the other. At that time, 200 million, you know, the states and our, in comparison, our million. He said, who do you think is going to gain the most? You don't need the answer. I mean, it's so simple. Yeah, that's one lesson from that conference I'll never forget. Well, thank you very much. Okay, my pleasure.