 Think Tech Hawaii, civil engagement lives here. Hello, have Friday and welcome to Prospectors on Global Justice, Think Tech Hawaii. This is your host, Beatrice Cantelmo. Well, today we have a very special guest with us, Dog Up, who is connected with SWAP Hawaii. And SWAP stands for Sex Workers Outreach Project. And we're going to talk about this beautiful organization that's actually have branches in other parts of the country. And also get to talk about an issue that we don't talk much in any news. So we're very proud to do that. And it has to do with Sex Workers. And on Monday, it's International End Sex Violence Against Sex Workers Day, which in my opinion should be a 365-day effort all over the globe. But without further ado, welcome to our program, my dear. Hi. Thank you. Hello. Hi, guys. Okay, we can shake hands. So nice to have you back. Thank you. Cool. So, wow. So, well, I guess today I have you as a guest wearing a different hat. Actually, it's the same hat. I posted pictures all over me in my hat. You silly man. Not that kind of hat. So, talk to me about SWAP and your role at SWAP. I'm, I guess, one of the co-founders of SWAP, Sex Workers Outreach Project. It's a national thing that started in, I think, 2003. There was a teacher named Shannon, and someone I met a while ago. And I didn't know her then, but I guess she was a teacher, but she was also a sex worker. And I think she got arrested, and so a lot of other sex workers and allies got together and fought for her rights, because she was being mistreated by the cops and stuff. And then, so they put together Sex Workers Outreach Project, and we're trying to give a voice to sex workers, because we all have a voice. But people say that they're the voice for the voices. We have a voice. We're silenced by the media who doesn't consult us, who don't write about us, and believe in all the other stuff that they hear. They don't talk to us, so. And I've been doing this sex worker activism for a while, and I realize, yeah, we did need a name to put with us for people to take us seriously, because otherwise everybody was speaking independently. And I only speak for myself, but there's a lot of stuff that we agree on. And so, you know, I can speak to those things. Right. Yeah. You do activism through SWAP, but do you have a personal connection with sex work? Yeah. I'm an occasional sex worker. Okay. So, as an occasional sex worker and as someone who has decided to also take a stand on activism to support the rights of sex workers, I would like to, you know, that you can tell our viewers what are the common issues that you have found as a barrier, not only, you know, as a sex worker, you know, even if you do it occasionally, but also for other sex workers in Hawaii domestically, meaning in the United States and across the globe. I guess one of the biggest things is just the stigma, because either people's religious beliefs think that sex is bad, unless you do it by certain rules, or just having, you know, sex work, the exchange of sex for something of value, of having that be criminalized. That's what works against us the most. So, let's talk a little bit about the criminalization aspect of sex work between consenting adults, because I think pretty much in most states of the country it is a crime. It is illegal. And each state has different statutes and handles it, even with more punishment or less, but more or less everyone is on the same boat. So, I know that having to worry about doing your job, being safe, but also not being busted for it is a big issue. There's a lot of people who think that they're trying to help people in the sex trade by speaking for them, speaking over them, speaking about them, speaking against them is what they're doing. And so, yeah, it's hard for us to have all, just a regular life. Like, you can't tell when you're on the bus or walking around who could be a sex worker. There's stereotypes, you know, which lead to profiling, which is another thing that we have to deal with, but, you know, there's so much going on in somebody's life with, you know, so if they decide to do sex work, having to worry about cops is just another issue, because you can't even report violence, because, you know, and so you're worried about somebody getting hurt. And because you're criminalized and all the stigma that people put on you, it makes an abusive person, you know, think that you're easy prey. So let's talk a little bit more about this. So in addition to the worries about maybe sting operations where cops may be posed as a potential client, but actually out there to, you know, arrest a sex worker, there is, the criminalization as we're making it illegal makes sex workers more vulnerable to someone who may be abusive, because, well, if you have a client who's abusive, you cannot call 911. Because if you're going to report the context. Hi, I'm a whore and someone just hurt me, you know, it's like, oh, you're the whore. You're easier to bust. Not going to work out. So there's violence that way. There is also violence in terms of actually even law enforcement. We know of cases of law enforcement from detectives, to investigators, to police officers, to even judges who actually have solicited sex from sex workers in exchange. That's a precursor to arrest. For that, or to make sure that they're not sent to jail. So there's a lot of extortion that way. I think that the irony of this is that I don't think that it would be an issue if someone, you know, is off duty and they decide to seek, you know, services from a sex worker. But when you are wearing your title and you're being emboldened and empowered. That power dynamic is what works against us too. So there is the exploitation, there is the abuse and the violence aspect of it too. Some cops are great clients, you know, and a lot of people that, you know, have power, they're cool, you know. So let's make sure to differentiate that. That it's not the issue with those who happen to have a title of a cop or judge or an attorney or somebody who works in law enforcement, who is working, you know, with a sex worker on their time off, that's their decision, versus the one that actually is in the line of duty and using their power to be able to prey on sex workers. That's really unacceptable. So that's one aspect of criminalization. But let's talk about safety in the context of health. When you have a criminalized trade, what is the likelihood that you are able to do screening for potential clients and figure out if they are safe or not? What kind of situations you are running into or that sex workers are running into in a criminalized model? Because there's as many situations within, you know, sex work for each individual as there are reasons for doing it and everything. I can't speak for a lot of other people, but I've heard of situations. So just the whole fact that because there was a law signed earlier this year, FOSTA slash CESTA, supposed to be stopping sex trafficking, but it's actually putting people in a position where they may be trafficked or they just become more vulnerable because it says that any person who may have been affected by trafficking can blame a website and hold that website accountable for their situation. So now all these websites are, you know, Facebook, Tumblr and Craigslist and Backpage, all those places you're either getting pulled off, you know, and getting rated or they're choosing to self-censor. And we use the internet to screen our clients. When we had Craigslist, you would be going back and forth with somebody. You already have their email, which you can, you know, research. You ask them for their phone number, which you can research. You ask for a LinkedIn page, you know, other kind of social media things. So we can figure out who we're doing business with, but because they're trying to save these people who are, anyway, without internet to help screen our clients, a lot of people are forced and you can't even get your clients anymore. A lot of people are winding back up on the street and you have no time to wonder, you know, what's going on because you got to get in that car. You need that money, you know, and so there's less time to screen the person just leaning in a car. You're looking at the person like, what does this person smell like? I hope like, you got to remember what they look like. Are they a cop? What are they going to do? Who else is in the car? What are they, you know, what do they want to do? Where we're going to go? How much they're going to do, you know, but so you can't even think about, you know, is there a condom situation? And when there's more fear and you're more vulnerable, you may be willing to like do less screening or do things without a condom or a lot of, because a lot of people are new to the street, they don't know where safe, you know, and they're trying to lay low. And so they just don't won't have those skills yet. And there's less community now. So we can't even teach people like, you know, remember what kind of card is, you know, look for the license plate. So it really check if the door will open. So it really puts a different spin in the safety aspect of sex work. They're making it more dangerous. Not only you are less empowered as a class in terms of doing the screening and the decision making on which client, you know, to choose. Because I think a lot of people have this misconception that like, if you are a sex worker, you're just going to go with whomever. And I think sex workers have standards too. Yeah, that's what we do. Like if you empower somebody to make their own decisions without having to worry, you know, and actually if you're going to try and change laws, make them so that they benefit people, you know, so that they get health care and of living wage. So people are in a more vulnerable position that way. And I think in terms of safety too, we need to talk about... I make all the rules. I don't do anything I don't want to do. I keep all my money. Yeah. So let me actually touch base on this, because I think that there is a big issue across the country, and especially in Hawaii right now, with the conflation. The meaning of the word conflation is the inner exchangeability. The mix up. That's an even harder word. Yeah, the mix up between sex work and sex trafficking. And sex trafficking are the same thing. Exactly. And they are not. So I want... Let's talk to our viewers about the difference between a sex worker and a sex trafficked individual. So, all right, why you are not a sex trafficked victim? And how do you say, okay, I am a sex worker, I am not sex trafficked? You know, what are the criteria is that you say, this is why I'm not trafficked? Well, by legal definition, a person who is sex trafficked is doing this sexual labor under force, fraud or coercion. And as a sex worker, do you find yourself in that situation? I don't find myself in any of those situations. There's occasions where I may feel like, I don't have the power in this situation, and I just shut it down. And if I feel like somebody think, whatever, I make my own decisions, I do everything on my own. I make the rules. There might be, okay, I don't really want to do that, but I'm kind of curious, or if that's really what you like. It's still a decision making, nobody's forcing you to go there. Nobody forces me, if I don't like it. I've stopped things halfway. I'm like, this is junk, you know, if you like it, whatever, but it's not my tea, so. But you have that power, that decision making process, even with a client, is it, I changed my mind, I don't want to go this route, or I want to try something else, or I don't want to do this period, and you're not being forced to do it. You're not being forced to do sex work as an adult, and this is a decision you came up. I could get clients more easily, so I could do it more often. I don't do it that often, and that's another thing about safety and stuff like that, is there's other people who make more money, you know, they do it more often for their income. You know, I kind of just do it like, okay, it feels not first sounds good, but I'm lucky that way. I'm a guy, you know, and I deal with men, there's no women being exploited, there's no women around, there's no women in the equation when I'm doing stuff, and women can't come out and represent themselves. So all these people that are speaking about sex work and saying how terrible it and everything it is and putting all the stigma on people, women who aren't experiencing any of that, they can't come forward because everybody has these assumptions is going to treat them different, and then there's also the threat of other people who just want to expose you and like docks you, you know, stalk you, do all these other kind of things that people do to women, and once they're labeled a sex worker and they're a victim and they're voiceless, it's like fine, you know, there's all these things weighing on them, it's not going to hurt if I jump on them too. So there's that aspect of it too, but you know, there's the other part of it that's very important to mention is that male sex workers, you know, are also out there. Yeah. And you know. And there's male people that, you know, get traffic, but nobody talks about those kind of things. But as a male sex worker, you're mentioning your privilege, but you're also reassuring our viewers and you know for yourself that you know, you're not being exploited, you're not being in a position to be encouraged, you're doing this on your own decision, making your own clock, your own will. The other aspect of sex... But it's not just guys that have that. And most of the sex workers I know are women or trans people. Sure. And they have the same kind of thing going on. They're making more money, they're doing better things, they're traveling. I did get to travel when I was sugar daddy, but now that I'm just, you know, working on the fly, it's, I don't have all that. So there are some people that may in society, you know, have fewer privileges than me, but they've got their business going up and running and they're doing way bigger, better things than me, writing books and... Let's take a minute break and we'll be right back. Okay. Aloha. This is Winston Welch. I am your host of Out and About, where every other week, Mondays at 3, we explore a variety of topics in our city, state, nation and world, and events, organizations, the people that fuel them. It's a really interesting show. We welcome you to tune in and we welcome your suggestions for shows. You got a lot of them out there and we have an awesome studio here where we can get your ideas out as well. So I look forward to you tuning in every other week where we've got some great guests and great topics. You're going to learn a lot, you're going to come away inspired like I do. So I'll see you every other week here at 3 o'clock on Monday afternoon. Aloha. I'm Jay Fidel, ThinkTech. ThinkTech loves energy. I'm the host of Mina, Marco and Me, which is Mina Morita, former chair of the PUC, former legislator, and Energy Dynamics, a consulting organization in energy. Marco Mangostorf is the CEO of Provision Solar in Hilo. Every two weeks, we talk about energy, everything about energy. Come around and watch us. We're on at noon and Mondays, every two weeks on ThinkTech. Aloha. Welcome back to Perspectives on Global Justice, ThinkTech Hawaii. This is your host, Beatrice Kintawa, and I'm back with Doug App of Suwapa Hawaii. So we were talking about the nuances between someone who does sex work, who's an adult and does consensual sex work, versus a person who's sex trafficked. So we touch base on the definitions of caution, abuse and force, which is not your reality and the reality of those who do consensual sex work. Another element of trafficking would be the one of deception, meaning somebody strict into walking for a salary or on a contract base and then to travel. And then when they get to that place, they're trapped or they have to pay off some debt. They have to pay off some debt or they have to be scared that if they get out, that they will be prosecuted or loved, one will be chased down. Is that what you're dealing with as a sex worker? As a sex worker, I'm not. I hear those stories a lot and I'm in the sex industry, sex trade, whatever, sex worker rights movement. We don't deny that any of that stuff happens and in fact a lot of our leaders have experienced trafficking. There's Kristin D'Angelo who does a lot of speaking engagements here in Hawaii. She made a movie called American courtesans, I believe and she started off doing survival sex work and then at some point she was trafficked. Something happened and then after that, she went back to sex work. There's a lot of people who, within the sex industry, just because of the abuses that they're dealing with in life and then under criminalization, getting taken advantage of and stuff like that, either by cops or other people out wherever. I don't even know what I'm talking about anymore. I'm getting lost, but there's a lot. Okay, so let me bring you back to that then. So when you are going to see a client, you know what you're getting into, you know how much you're charging, you have a code, a process there, you know where it's going to happen and there's no deception about it. You know exactly what's going to be, this is it, this is what the deal is and it's a done deal and it's a business. It's an agreement. Okay, it's an agreement. And that is really, it brings up a new point is at the beginning of the show, we talked about the stigmatization of sex work and you cannot talk about that without talking about our own hangups as a society about sex. And one of the things I always bring up when I do training on sex trafficking and sex work and the differentiations of it is to ask people in the audience to differentiate between a couple who decides to have sex at the privacy of their own foreign doors or enclosed environments with or without a money exchange and the agreement of that encounter, you know whether it's a one-time deal, you meet someone and you know you're going to hook up physically and you end up having intercourse or with couples in general or even with couples where one person faced the bill because the other person is at stay home, you know, parent or the house husband or the housewife versus somebody who's a sex worker and honestly nobody can put the difference, you know, they can't say what is the difference between, you know, a sex worker when you make that decision, you know, to hook up with someone and you might go out on a date, wine, dine and go to business afterwards or you may decide to skip everything, not even have a dessert and go straight to business, get paid and off you go but the point of this conversation is that, you know, people are sexual beings and some people want to have a date or a steady partner or a night stand every day or a couple times a month, some people prefer to actually have a connection, you know, sexual connection with a partner or with a sex worker but as long as it is done, you know, between consenting adults, they have an agreement about what they're doing, what is the exchange involved in that process if any, oh, whatever it is and, you know, everybody's school, it shouldn't be anyone's business. It's sexual privacy, you know, let people do what they got to do, for a lot of sex workers, our clients are just lonely people, you know, like people that are trapped in unloving situations or people whose partners have died, you know, we provide like a service, you know, and a lot of the time that you spend with somebody is very, is hardcore emotional labor, you know, it's not all about the sex all the time, you know, there's that point, you know, things build up, that's just human, you know, biology and stuff like that, but a lot of that is somebody seeking, you know, intimacy with another person and, you know, when you're working, you don't want to put in all that labor sometimes and that's like, you know, but other times you realize you learn to care about these people, you know, if you see them a lot and you do build a relationship, one of my regulars I've known longer than 10 years and I've seen so many different things and, you know, ups and downs, kids growing up and stuff like that, so because we're regular people, so are they, you know, there's just some kind of thing that happens between us at some point in our time together. So a sex worker who has a connection with somebody who's seeking, you know, the services, I think one of the things that I hear a lot is, oh, they're like sex traffickers, you know, or people who like are praying, you know, on the poor victims, you know, and how do you view that? I mean, do you view your clients that way? It's obnoxious, no, no, I mean, but when you say that everybody is like that and, you know, come down hard and like that, the people that we trust, like our clients that we trust and the people that we would like to do business with, they become afraid of being labeled that because now there's all these crazy scares going on that everybody's got all this bad intense and so it makes, you know, normal guys or girls or trans people just question themselves like, I want to, you know, I desire sex, but everybody's telling me that everything about that is terrible, you know, or they can't find a regular relationship and if they can find somebody who's willing to do it, you know, but all those people that just want, you know, some human connection, they're stigmatized as well. So not only the sex worker, but the client. And the people that don't care about that don't have those worries or just want to do harm, they're still going to come out looking for us. They're the ones. And so with all these people mischaracterizing our jobs, you know, they're making it more dangerous for us. They're not helping anybody, but themselves make a name for themselves or make money for whatever their little organization is. But so we're, it sucks that they also are exploiting the sex workers because of all the stigma and the legal risk or, you know, there's a lot of women who can't speak for themselves. That's what I was saying, like, there's trans folks and, you know, people of color, women, that are leading the sex worker rights movement. I'm one of the guys out there that's lucky that I get to speak and I don't have as much to lose. You know, I don't have any kids. I'm not worried about that. I'm not in a relationship. I'm not going to lose that person. You know, I'm not going to lose my housing right now. You know, so I'm lucky that I get to come and speak for this kind of stuff and speak about the issues that the majority of us are facing. But there's people that are, you know, going through rougher things than me. But they're not empowered to come speak because other people are speaking for them and saying all these things that aren't true. And I think one of the signs of criminalization and the stigma that's attached to it is when a person or a group who is directly impacted by policies or propositions that will directly, you know, influence that person's life, safety, a right to access to, you know, legal support if they need to, and health, too, because I think a lot of sex workers are also targeted that way, where they may be screened and they may have their identity shared with law enforcement and public health officers, which makes a sex worker being more concerned about their own personal safety of not being discovered. We can't open up to our doctors. Can't tell them why, you know. So you have that, but on the other hand, it's like the part of the silence where there you are. You have a group of individuals who are really hurting. And you have people who are so-called ex-foss in the field. They don't talk to us. They are not experts. Not only they don't talk to the sex workers, but they speak on behalf of the sex workers and they continue to silence the sex workers because they know that the sex workers cannot speak out. And so I'm very excited that we have a swap in Hawaii because hopefully that will change the dynamic on how we do business as usual in terms of data collection, in terms of policymaking, and in terms of driving household changes that are very needed at the state level that will make sex workers, you know, human rights respected and to make sex workers safer, you know, in regards to their own health, their own well-being and also legally. But it will also make, you know, those who may be vulnerable to, you know, sex trafficking, which is not to be confused with sex work, also less vulnerable because what the world consensus have reached, you know, and organizations that have been doing this work for decades around the globe, is that when you criminalize sex work between consenting adults, you not only put them at risk, but you also put sex workers who were trafficked or sex trafficked victims at higher risk. It doesn't work. You're pushing us further underground. So people who are trafficked, they're getting hidden along with us. Right. And so already they're in some kind of turmoil that's going on in their head. They're manipulated somehow and then the fear of, you know, getting in more trouble. If someone's, you know, abusing them might be saying, you know, maybe they're not from, you know, they don't speak English that well or they're young and they don't understand the laws and stuff like that. So whatever kind of mind games is going on with them, that just makes them more fearful of coming out, you know, and speaking up for themselves. And then sex workers who have access to this world, they can't come out and speak on behalf of that person because there's already the fear of cops. That person doesn't want you to, you know, interfere in their life necessarily. And then if I choose to speak up for somebody, that, you know, if I was a woman or a trans person or had darker skin or didn't speak English or didn't have any college, all these things that I have going on that, you know, helped me come here and speak to the public, you know, I risk a lot too. So, you know, but other people may not have all these things, you know, going for them and so they can't speak up for anybody. So it's just, it's being, I forgot the word. It's a snowball that keeps on getting bigger and perpetuated and harming instead of helping anyone. There was a review that just came out earlier this week of 150 or so studies about sex work and the consensus was that criminalization is what causes the most harm to people in the sex trade. De-criminalizing it, just taking away any language that says that you shouldn't do this, can't do this, you know, that would help so many people. They would be able to come forward and we wouldn't be afraid of cops because the cops, it wouldn't be law enforcement's job to go after us. It would, their job would go back to being, you know, protecting and serving us. Exactly. So we are almost out of time, but I want you to tell our viewers about what swap is putting for Monday as far as events to honor sex workers around the globe who have lost their lives or who have been really brutalized due to violence. This Monday, December 17th, which is the International Day to End Violence Against Sex Workers, we're having sort of a vigil at 2500 Polly Highway, that's first Unitarian Church. And it's going to be, we're going to have like a little wine mixer at the beginning, a short ceremony to honor sex workers that we've lost over the past year, but since Swap Hawaii is pretty new, I'm not sure how we're going to manage all that. It's pretty intense. And then after that, we're going to have some breakfast dinner catered by the spot. Alrighty. Well, I... 2500 Polly Highway, 6.30 to 8.30 p.m. 8.30. I was something there. On Monday, December 17th. And I hope our viewers, you know, who have checked the show will be there as well. And thank you so much for coming here for lending this, you know, strengthen your voice and to get Swap Hawaii. Now, you're fine. My hope for the new year is that sex workers actually don't feel scared, you know, when they are unsafe and that our laws do change to be able to recognize that their human rights also to be safe when people that want to speak, you know, to help us, speak to us, speak, listen to us. So, well, now we have Swap Hawaii. So that's a wonderful thing. Well, we're out of time, folks. Thank you so much for listening to us today. And see you next time. A hui hou.