 follow for joining Restaurants Hawaii here on Think Tech Hawaii. My name is Cheryl Matsuoka, the executive director for the Hawaii Restaurant Association, and it's lunchtime in Hawaii Nay. Today, we are having a very timely conversation with two restaurateurs and Siobhan Garcia. Hey, Siobhan, could you please introduce yourself and our two guests? Sure. I'm Siobhan Garcia. I'm the executive assistant for the Hawaii Restaurant Association. I wanted to introduce Ryan Tanaka. He is the president of Island Business Management. He is also the vice chair for the Hawaii Restaurant Association. And we also have Robert Fock, who is the owner of MLB Enterprises, better known as Roundtable Pizza here in Hawaii. Thank you, Siobhan. As Hawaii continues to battle with COVID, Hawaii Restaurant Association has been one of the leaders on the High Got Vaccinated initiative. Employers are very concerned about mandating their employees to take the COVID-19 vaccination. So today's conversation is all around what considerations should employers make when deciding on vaccination policies for their employees. So join this timely conversation as more employers are contemplating mandating their employees to take the COVID vaccination as part of their employment. As we all know, yesterday, the Food and Drug Administration granted full approval of the Pfizer COVID-19 vaccine. So right now, with the COVID vaccine having FDA approval, Robert, do you think this is a game changer for our employers? Absolutely, absolutely. I think it's going to be a thunderbolt, a rolling ball downhill that just going to grab more and more employers. We already saw Disney took a positive stance. CVS Pharmacy said, if you're making contact with a customer, you have to be vaccinated. I think that's going to be the case. But the other part of that question is how easy is it going to be to do? There are people that have objections and some of the objections are religious, others are medical. And if you want to keep those people as employees, I think there should be the option to test them on a regular basis. That was kind of a mediating factor that was, I'm not going to say overlooked, but not brought into question yesterday. But it's going to be an issue. But in answer to your question, yes, I think every day we're going to see more and more major national concerns and smaller concerns jumping on that bad way. Thank you so much. What are your thoughts, Ryan? The FDA approval of Pfizer was definitely a game changer. There was a survey conducted by Ed Case, and he just reported on Monday morning that of his constituency of those who participated, one third said that they would actually get the vaccination as long as it was FDA approval. So what the FDA approval means is now it's not only backed by science, but it's backed by months and months of research and thousands of data points. So if people can rest assured that the vaccine is safe, it's backed by science is something that's going to actually be very good to get. Thank you so much. As you know, we have many restaurateurs that are now contemplating this whole initiative, you know, vaccine mandates for their employers. Gentlemen, any recommendations as also your employers? I'm an employer, you know, of restaurant employees. What should we say to our restaurant employers as they're contemplating this really tough decision? Robert, you want to take that one? Yeah, sure. What should we say to our restaurant employees, not employers. Employees, sorry. Oh, no, I might have misunderstood. No, I mean, you have to tell them, look at the facts, look at the science. You know, it's proven that there are going to be less cases, there are going to be cases, but there's a greater chance of being asymptomatic, a greater chance of lesser chance of hospitalization or death. I have three employees now. We've gone up to now without any employees at Roundtable or CJs, our two restaurants that they held in the Wyandilich. I have three employees that right now have tested positive last week for COVID. Two of them are slightly symptomatic, they were unvaccinated. And one of them who is our kitchen manager, has been with me about 16 years, started at age 16, is totally asymptomatic, but he was vaccinated. And he's been tested twice in both times positive. So I think there's going to be exceptions all over the place, but in a conversation with an employee, you got to look at the facts and you got to say it's the best thing to do. You have to think of others as well as yourself. And then too, we have to listen to what their objections are. And the one objection that I've heard most from some of our young girls is their concern about future pregnancies, about the reproductive system. Well, the FDA says it's not an issue. Do we believe that? We don't know. But for most of those not objecting for that reason, I think we have to assure them and we have to educate those that really don't know. There are a lot of people out there that just made up their mind. I've never been vaccinated for the flu and I don't care to be vaccinated for COVID. Well, that's not enough of an answer because you're affecting other people and you may not be able to keep your job. If the government stops putting money out there with the stimulus plan, and I think Ryan had told me September 6th is the day that if it's not extended, there's the possibility of a whole bank of jobless people that don't have extra money coming in that may want to work. And based on the numbers, the total population, what, vaccinated in the state, what did you say, 84%? Maybe wrong on that. Most of those people are going to be vaccinated and they're going to be able to fill spots of unvaccinated people. So the unvaccinated may be risking a job as well. So what I say to them is wake up and pay attention. Nice, Robert. How about you, Ryan, to your employees? Okay, well, let me start by just saying, in terms of the number that Robert gave, we have for the state of Hawaii, we're the only state that uses total population as our denominator. So based on that calculation, we're actually much lower statewide. We're still in the low 60% of total vaccination of our total population. However, if you look at the eligible population, then yes, that number goes up to the low 80% pile. So there is a bright outlook in the sense that there's only 17% left. According to, sorry, I keep referring to these surveys because that's really the only data that we have. The vaccination mandates are so recent and only as a very recently did we see something in New York City and New Orleans and San Francisco. And so a lot of it is just based on polls and market sentiment, but a recent poll, which was nationally nationwide, showed that there are about 30% of Americans are unvaccinated. And so if that's true, then Hawaii at 17% versus 30% were actually doing quite a bit better than our mainland counterparts. So when you're thinking about how does that apply to your restaurant or to your business and what type of policy do you create? I think Robert is right on. You really have to be sensitive to your own employees. In his case, the biggest objection to getting vaccinated is the possibility if you wanted to be compregnant, that could actually be a stumbling block for you down the road and for the health of your unborn child. Again, going back to Ed Case's survey, two in three people said that their biggest concern is just the safety around the vaccination. They were concerned that the vaccination is not safe and that there are going to be unintended health consequences. And this was, again, with the FDA approval on Monday, this gives people a lot of confidence that the vaccine is safe. So looking at our employees at Geolani Kostromi, we're down with 63 pre-COVID. We're down to just over 50 now, about 52 employees. And over half are vaccinated. So we're really looking at that remaining 40%. What do we do with them? And in talking to them, they have a number of reasons that they don't feel comfortable getting the vaccination. And some of them are very legitimate. In some cases, it's medical like Robert had alluded to. In some cases, not for us, but in other cases, for other employees, it's religious. And these are two protected classes. So you have to be really err on the side of caution. If you do have or decide to implement a vaccination mandate for your employees, you should at least carve out something for them that they can, for a written medical reason or written religious reason, have an opportunity to not get the vaccination. And then the employer has to reasonably accommodate that. The standard is much higher for disability than it would be for religion. But in that case, when you're considering a company policy, it is a very slippery slope. Because think about the people who, for whatever the reason, they just don't feel comfortable getting the vaccination. And they do believe in personal choice. And you have that flip side where that it's not about personal choice. This is really about building community and protecting our kupuna, protecting our loved ones. But for them, they see it the same way. They see it like, hey, I'm protecting myself by not getting the vaccination. And in my case, if it is medical or if I have a loved one who either passed away or had a traumatic experience or there was some kind of tragedy associated with getting the vaccination, they're going to be a lot more apprehensive to do that. And when you mandate for them to do that, it really can rub them wrong. So I think being sensitive to your employees, listening to them, really easing it as opposed to just coming out strong and mandating it, what happens is it'll, there's a ripple effect, right? If you implement this policy and you know that a large number of your employees are not comfortable getting vaccinated, and then you want them to have good customer service. But they're feeling like their own rights are violated. How are they going to then treat customers by going forward? So I think just that the care that you take in talking with them and implementing something that is going to work not just for them, because it's ultimately going to protect them, it's going to also protect your guests. And like we talked about before, Cheryl, it's said right now, and this came from HLTA this morning, that the vaccination is our ticket to normalcy. And in many cases, that's true. And so if we can think about it from that perspective, we all want everybody to get vaccinated because this is going to be our collective ticket to normalcy. And we all want to get back to normal, Ryan, so badly. So thank you for that. As I speak to restaurateurs every day, one of the comments that was made to me is they're very concerned about the employees turning around and suing them. Currently, there is a lawsuit in Hawaii. The state of Hawaii first responders had hired an attorney, 1,200 of them. And so what can we do, guys? I mean, what can we advise as people are also following that lawsuit? I think a lot of the answers are going to come from the FDA. I mean, they started by legitimizing Pfizer today, possibly Moderna next and acknowledging and accepting government, governmental companies and private companies that are saying we want to vaccinate everybody. I don't know if I'm answering your question directly about what we're going to do about a lawsuit. But I think we need the government to support us on that. And there may be case law that will develop. I don't know. And then if the first responders, what percentage of them? I mean, what do we know? As a group, they're not opposed to the vaccination. But going back into the last question of this, if I may, together, I think the idea of a mandate, I think the governor did a wonderful thing by saying there won't be a mandate at this time. We're looking at New York. We're looking at other states. And we're seeing people suing and threatening suits. I think we have to take it gradually. And I'm going to go back to what I said earlier. I think there's got to be an alternative. I think you can say to your employees, we want you vaccinated. But if you don't want to be, we're going to test you. And our expense is an employer regularly. We're going to buy time. And in the meantime, we're going to educate you. And we're going to make sure you're aware of all the facts that are coming down that we know right now are all supportive of vaccination. And then we go from there. I don't know. I'm not going to be scared off by a threatened lawsuit if I'm doing the right thing. I feel for the first responders. We need the first responders. But we need a vaccination. We've got to stop this vaccine and extracts. And the only thing that we know that's working is the vaccination. Ryan, what are your thoughts about the lawsuit? It is unfortunate. I do understand where they're coming from. In this case, you know, you have, like I said, 1200 people. I think a lot of it has to do with a union as well. So you have collective bargaining that you feel may have been violated, but that process may have been violated. So I do understand where they're coming from. In this case, there also is not between a private employer. This is between the government. So unfortunately, that's just the reality when you have a mandate for anything. When you dictate to people, this is what you must do. And when it involves injecting something into your body, they may not necessarily agree. And even if there is misinformation, even if they may be misguided in their minds, they're not writing their minds, the people who are imposing the mandate are misguided. And they're the ones who really need to rethink about what they're doing. And that's why it's a touchy subject. But at the same time, like Robert said, if this is what you believe to be the right thing to do, then you just cannot worry about a lawsuit if you believe that this is the best for your organization or for your people or for your community. And that's what this is coming down to. There's two sides, and it's not right or wrong. It's good and better. People who may not feel comfortable getting the shot have good reasons to do that. But now it's becoming clear that it's actually better for everybody overall to get the vaccination. And that's starting, like Robert said, through education. It's just becoming clearer and clearer as more data unfolds. The FDA approval on Pfizer was one very large step. And so when it comes to future lawsuits, hopefully, there's so many, I guess there's so much light being shared on the issue that employers are going to be consulting with legal counsel before they do anything. There is HIPAA involved as well. So you don't want to violate HIPAA whenever you implement something that is a blanket policy for your company or for your restaurant or for your business. And so making sure that you have strong legal counsel that's going to protect you. So in the event of a lawsuit, and that may be the case. And unfortunately, that's just a reality of how people may feel towards the situation. It's not personal. They have a belief that their rights are being violated. So they should be able to say and see those beliefs. And if it includes involving an attorney, that's within their right to do. And so you have your own legal counsel who's advising you properly, who should be. And then they can talk about how they can come to a settlement. And hopefully that will actually spur dialogue. This meeting of the minds needs to come together. This is a community solution. And so we need different perspectives to actually create the best possible outcome. Nice, Ryan. Thank you so much. So Siobhan, do you have any questions for the gentleman? Well, I just wanted to touch on a note that Ryan was talking about having strong legal counsel. What do you say to these restaurants who don't have the ability to have that strong legal counsel? Maybe they're a small mom and pop. What do you tell them? I would tell them, and I'm not just saying this because I'm vice chair, but I would tell them to contact Cheryl Matsuoka and Siobhan Garcia at the Hawaii Refugee Association and seek them for guidance. Obviously, the HRA will not take a legal position and would not in any way take sides between employees and employers. But what they can do is they can provide resources. And the HRA has proven to be such an effective advocacy, not just a trade association, but a group of very like-minded experts, category experts who have been able to come together and mobilize through different times throughout history. But most recently during COVID, during this pandemic, which right now is facing the state, it's probably one of the greatest disasters we'll ever face because of the length of time. We're approaching how many months now? Robert or Cheryl? 18, going on 19 months. 18, 19 months with no end in sight. There could be more variants. This is just, we're in the midst of Delta and an article yesterday said that the southern states are peaking, but that's just Delta. There are other variants that could come out and you have booster shots and there's going to be other things that could make COVID an ongoing pandemic. So Siobhan, to answer your question, I would direct them when there's that much uncertainty and if you don't have the resources to go out and hire an attorney who's going to really be able to look up for your interest, where do you turn to? And I would actually recommend that they turn to the Hawaii Restaurant Association and ask those questions and see how we can pool our knowledge and resources together because we're not, again, we're not trying to take sides here. We're trying to create, looking at the greater good and how do we create a community solution here for not just the restaurant tours, but also their employees? You're right, Ryan. If anybody has any questions, Hawaii Restaurant Association has been a resource throughout all of COVID. Reopening guidance, PPP, Restaurant Revitalization Fund, we're the resource. So go ahead and email us at info at hawaiirestaurant.org because we have great people on our board of directors such as Ryan Tanaka and Robert Bach that can definitely support any of the restaurant tours out there that have questions. Siobhan, any other questions? With these mandates that we're talking about and we've seen in different states, if this were to be a mandate here in Hawaii, do you suspect that it would be across all sectors or will it only affect certain sectors of our community like we're talking about restaurants? I think it'll be much broader. I mean, I think that's obvious. I think any time you're saying personal contact, you know, I play dumb to not reading about the first responders' lawsuit, but bringing that into the picture. My God, who's going to have closer contact with a COVID victim than a first responder? And I find it interesting that they're objecting to a vaccination. I would have thought they're the first in line. I wonder on a national basis. This is not a national lawsuit, right? This was based in Hawaii. I'm curious as to how contradictory that might be to a national opinion of those first responders in New York where thousands of people died they were dealing with and the care homes and what that. I find that whole thing crazy, but I don't know enough about it, but just an opinion. But definitely, Shaman, it's going to be broader. The mandate's going to hit any large groups that have contacts with lots of people. Just give it time and watch. We can have this discussion a week from now and we're going to have so much more to talk about. I agree. That's how this whole pandemic's been rolling out. Ryan, what are your thoughts? There actually is a precedent in New York City that our lawmakers are reviewing because it's extremely well written and well laid out. And the definition is broader. So one thing that we would want to see included would be statewide, not just county by county because it makes enforcement much more challenging when different counties have inconsistencies in their policy. The second thing would be a broader definition of indoor recreation. We're separating out the banks and the airlines and the meetings and even retail, separating that out from indoor recreation, things like fitness, food service, hotel hospitality, and entertainment. So when you think about where's your frame of mind when you're eating and drinking or when you're out and about? Where's your frame of mind when you're working out or watching a movie or watching a sporting event? That entertainment that indoor recreation should be very broadly defined. And if you don't make it broadly defined, the risk, because the goal of a vaccination mandate is to incentivize increasing the vaccination rate of your area. So if we do it statewide, the purpose would be to increase the vaccination rate statewide. So if it's too specific, what happens is you begin to isolate areas that you may be targeting the wrong groups. You may be targeting areas that you're going to actually be punishing people for good behavior and for model behavior inadvertently. And if the goal is for the employees of that industry to get vaccinated, if you're too specific, those employees could just move to a different industry temporarily until the mandate passes. And they can go back to the same industry and avoid getting the vaccination the entire time. So what have you really accomplished if it's too specific? So I do think that the definition should be broad, right, indoor recreation, entertainment, food service, fitness, hotel hospitality, and again statewide. Very nice. I agree totally. So Siobhan, do you have any other questions? No, I'm good. Thank you. All righty. Eric is not messaging me yet, so we can still talk up two minutes to close. Okay, thanks, Eric. So again, Hawaii Restaurant Association would like to thank Robert Bach and Ryan Tanaka for joining Siobhan and myself today. And really in order to our viewers, in order for this world to recover from COVID-19 pandemic, we all need that herd immunity. And now that the Pfizer vaccine has received the FDA's approval and Moderna is right behind the vaccination is safe. And Hawaii Restaurant Association is the voice of Hawaii's food service industry. And we are a resource for employers that need more information on this very important topic of how to implement a vaccine policy in your organization. So if you have any questions, reach out to us at info at HawaiiRestaurant.org. Is there anything else, people? Hope everyone stay safe and, you know, they mask up, they socially distance. If they are symptomatic, they stay home. And Robert, any closing statements? Yes, just as Ryan said, stay safe, hope for the best. I think we're on the right track. What has happened nationally and locally in the last day or two days is encouraging. I'm out of town returning tomorrow. But I'm staying on top of this and watching closely. And we're moving in the right direction. And Rome wasn't built the day. But as long as we stay on course, we're going to be fine, I believe. Thank you for hosting. Oh, thank you, everyone. Thank you so much for jumping on, everyone. And be safe, everyone. We'll see you in two weeks.