 Today I'm speaking to Mota Kaulad, who is the Director for the World Food Programme Indonesia. So welcome. Thank you very much. Would you like to share this morning with us some of the work that the World Food Programme is doing on food security and insecurity in Indonesia and maybe highlight some of the issues that you're tackling? Yes. And thank you very much for this opportunity. The World Food Programme is very much focused on supporting access to diverse foods and therefore to a balanced diet. A diet that does not focus only on energy starches, meaning only cereals, rice, maize or wheat, but that includes also vitamins, minerals, proteins. And one of the concerns that we have is that for various reasons, but a lot due to poverty, people tend to consume mostly cereals and very monotonous diets. It's poverty and often it is also ignorance. We see this trend also in higher income levels unless people become really very well educated and then they really diversify their diet. And the reason, I mean this has led or the reason it's a complicated cause and effect relationship, but it's also that the current supply chains that we have for foods, they are actually very monotonous and very much focused on logistics, on the ease of transport, on minimizing costs, and therefore standardizing a lot the products. And we see this with all the processed foods as well as with the fresh foods. They all come from very standardized production patterns, which of course optimize profits and optimize price and accessibility, but they certainly penalize the availability. And what we see also is a loss in very healthy traditions. People that still live in isolated communities that still have the possibility to rely on their knowledge, traditional knowledge, like people living in the forests. Actually they have a much better nutrition level among their children than people who live in urban areas in our middle class. And this is because through their traditional knowledge they can access this incredible wealth and variety of nutrients that are in the forests. Now the challenge is that with the use of land for industrial production a lot of the forest is being lost. And this is causing a loss of this knowledge. This is causing also important poverty levels and dependency by these people who have this knowledge actually on markets and commercial foods. And this induces in them important negative behavior because for them it becomes a matter of survival. They need to chop the wood to sell it to have money to buy the rice that is available in the market. They don't preserve the forest anymore because the forest is bringing them the variety of foods but also medicines that they need. So this is the focus that the World Food Program has on the whole issue of nutrition, diversification and forests. That's very interesting because it resonates very clearly with the research that we do at the Centre for International Forestry Research. And we have found in Africa and in Indonesia a very clear relationship between tree cover and nutrition and independent of wealth. So poor people who have access to a diverse environment actually have a better diet and a more nutritious diet. And you've described what we call a nutrient transition. The transition once you have a certain amount of income to this processed type diet dominated by staples, wheat, rice or whatever which gives the double burden of obesity and higher instances of non-communicable diseases. And he mentioned education and it's interesting because Indonesia is a bit of a ticking time bomb with regard to type 2 diabetes for example. And here we are in Jakarta and we're in the CBD predominantly surrounded by restaurants that are characterized by fast food. So much of the middle class have made that transition from that diverse diet into the more western diets and are suffering accordingly. Do you think that there's a cultural factor in that transition as well? Well there is a cultural factor in that the new generations that are born and grow up in urban areas they do not have the knowledge that their forefathers had when they were growing up in rural areas and they grow dependent on and with a taste also that relies very, very much on the fast food. There is an issue certainly of knowledge and there is certainly an issue of incomes. If incomes continue growing certainly then people become also more sensitive to what is health foods, what is organic foods, diverse foods and so on. But there is really in Indonesia also a big threat when I visit communities that are in the more remote part of Indonesia it is evident how they have really already resorted to these negative practices which is logging to cultivate maize. You see many patches in the forest cover that are just for production of cereals for markets for the simple purpose of earning incomes. So the challenge is really to make use of the large dimension of the country to really develop more local markets, local policies, local engagement. Traditional foods do not travel much. This is a problem. Certainly research and development to understand better the value of forest products is important. Certainly also to understand and improve the supply chains is very, very important so there is a need for a national effort but I would really say that it's expanding markets at local level which would really help preserving the traditions. So you have to preserve the forest, the biodiversity at the same time as you promote the use of forest foods. So you mentioned, alluded to the production by small holders and worked by C4 and FAO have shown that a vast majority of the world's food or at least a vast proportion is grown by small holders in diverse cropping systems. And as we see changes in demographics as farmers get older their children don't want to come back to the land. We see consolidation of land which is then often given out as concessions for oil palm for example. And so we're seeing land being changed from agricultural production to commodity production. What impact does that have on food security and insecurity and also resilience to climate change for example? How do people adapt and really go to their food systems? There is a need to think and develop ways to offset the current trend because the current trend is really generating very vicious cycles. So we have a short-term solution. You and me may be eating well but I think our grandchildren or grand-grandchildren will have a big problem if we continue behaving the way we are behaving because we deplete the forest cover. We create an increased exposure to natural disasters. We do not have alternative systems and alternatives are always very important and we create a very strong dependence. So also the whole issue of the food sovereignty and the food security of countries is a very, very important issue on this. And most importantly we really lose the knowledge that there is about and we lose access to a wealth of foods that we haven't discovered yet. So ways that really while meeting the needs of an urbanized world but at the same time value and bring to the right use and respect forest foods would be certainly very enriching, very beneficial and would be part of this change of behavior and change of strategies that the world needs in order to be able to ensure that our grandchildren will have good quality food and the right access to the broadest type of foods possible. What do you say to those critics who are out there who say that the world actually grows enough food? We have a billion people who are undernourished, a billion people who are obese. There's something wrong in our food system somewhere. Where's the solution? Coming from the centre of international forest research we're concerned with natural resources, forests and their influence on food systems and so we want to protect them and integrate them into our production of food as much as possible. But what's gone wrong with our food systems that we have a situation 40 years after the Green Revolution where we still have a billion people undernourished and a billion people obese, this inequity? How can we address that? It's a very complex issue. We have to look at it from various angles. I do think that public-private partnerships are important in this because there is an important awareness raising and common understanding of the challenges that is required. Where we are now is just the evolution and the consequence of our economic system. It brings advantages because for those who can and who live in urban settings there is certainly now better possibility to be better nourished and nourish children well than there was 40, 50 years ago. But the sustainability of it is a real challenge. It is a system that is full of waste that is extremely monotonous so it really misses opportunities as well. But there is a need to recognise a problem. There is a need to study and there is a need for willingness to change it. Besides also the need for not just the economic rationale that well-nourished children turn into strong, intelligent, brighter human beings but also that it is really morally and ethically an obligation for every individual to make sure that other individuals also have proper nutrition, proper education. So it's part really of the overall development goals not just for one country I would say but for every country. It's a good point actually. It brings me on to my next question about the sustainable development goals and of course as we think about post-2015 what role forest landscapes have in terms of defining the future development of the globe if you like. And one thing that we are thinking about and trying to influence is getting landscapes onto the agenda. So instead of agriculture and forestry being siloed out segregated as they have traditionally been a much more integrated approach to natural resource management and food production and basically being cognisant of the value of forests and natural systems to agriculture the services that they provide in terms of pollination services climate regulation, water, clean water to connect on nutrition and health of local communities. How feasible do you think that is as a wish list for us as a centre to influence the sustainable development goals to such a degree that we can get that level of cognisance and recognition of landscapes as a concept sustainable landscapes as a concept. Well it's a revolutionary thought that the world at the moment needs quite a number of revolutions of this type because our systems are unsustainable we deplete too much of the natural resources and the forest is perhaps together with the oceans or the rivers I mean the nature overall but forests in particular are the soul of the world really I mean how can the world can you imagine a world without forests? I don't know it will be the moon can we live on the moon well on the moon can we prosper so certainly there is I think there is a lot of awareness that is developing in it about this issue it is still I think a small elite and an intellectual elite that is appreciating these challenges so there is a need really to develop more awareness about it but also really to focus much more resources on research and development and innovation in this area absolutely and that's ultimately where the direction that we aspire to go into our research would generate this groundswell of thinking that will essentially embrace natural resources as part of our food production systems not think of them as a luxury which has been described to me in certain meetings with agricultural colleagues that you can't have agriculture and forestry and we firmly believe that you can have the two together in this integrated landscape scale I think that's a very good point so thanks very much for your time it was a very interesting discussion and I really appreciate you sharing the insights from the World Food Program thank you very much thank you