 Welcome back to the Trade Hacker Mindset podcast. I have a special episode for you today. I'm going to be joined by the author of the mental game of trading, Mr. Jared Tindler. Trading the markets can be difficult to master and seemingly just out of reach. Professional traders have a secret. Trading requires total mental and emotional control. It requires the Trade Hacker Mindset. All right, welcome back. I'm with Jared. Jared super excited to be here with you today. We're doing, I actually hired you as a coach, right? So this is not just an interview, Jared. This is an actual coaching session and we're going to do at least three of these. Signed up for a three session package and who knows? Maybe it'll be more than that, but we'll start with these. A couple of things that I just wanted to mention before we get started is as I told you, Jared, is I want this to be just like your normal coaching sessions. Okay. I mean, nothing is off limits. You know, I think I said in our initial call, if you make me cry on camera, so be it. That's just, it is what it is. You know, account values, anything that you want to know, you want to ask, I'm going to be sharing this with my community. I just, I think it'll bring tremendous value to them. Just inside the way that I think and I kind of manage my positions and psychology and I'm really hoping that you uncover some things that I'm not aware of, which is what you're good at, right? Well, that certainly is the hope for sure. And yeah, listen, I commend you for being so open and honest about this because I think, you know, to kind of demystify a little bit, not just of my work, but of like trading psychology in general. I know a lot of traders, you know, kind of go after it, but I think you're going to bring in a whole new perspective or you're going to allow a whole new perspective to start to open up in the community doing this. So yeah, kudos to you and I'm ready to rock and roll when you are. Yeah, let's jump in. All right, cool. So you filled out my new client questionnaire and I'm just curious, you know, if in doing it, there was any sort of new ideas that popped out or if it was just sort of standard knowledge that you kind of already had known before quite well. I wouldn't say it's just normal standard stuff. I would say that I've I've I have in the past worked with a I think I told I worked with a trading psychologist. It's been two or three years ago maybe and and so I did a lot of deep diving into a lot of the stuff that you already asked. So some of that was stuff that I've kind of thought through before I certainly wouldn't say it's normal or natural, but it it helped that I had done it before I guess. Yeah, yeah, good. Yeah, I think sometimes there can be some new new ideas percolating but so kind of first thoughts here and I'll say kind of out of the gate, you know, I'll throw out ideas, they're kind of estimates, right? You know, to me it's a probabilities game on my end to right and and so sometimes if I if I pose a scenario for you and it's, you know, right? Cool. If not, maybe I'll give you some ideas to kind of reflect back on on where we're heading. So here is sort of my first, you know, kind of take on what we're what we're trying to do. You'd kind of set out line your goals for coaching in this way to build on mental discipline become more self-aware of emotions and to figure out if you should become more of a discreet to kind of add some more discretion to your trading and I kind of want to reorder those because I think my sense is that you might be making a classic mistake, which is that that discipline is kind of the primary issue and I want to first rule out that there aren't actually more emotional drivers for what's causing those violations of discipline, which you clearly outlined in the questionnaire, right? There's some overconfidence and greed in here, maybe a little bit of fear, but I sense is maybe a little bit of overly competitiveness that can sort of, you know, kind of peer out. And so if any of these things are present to me, the first thing we want to do is, you know, be more aware of their presence in real time and start to correct them and then it's through that corrections that you're going to build more self-discipline. So we kind of flip those two and then from that position, maybe by, you know, midway to session two or three, I think we'll be able to jump into more of that question of can you take on more discretionary style trading? I would say it's not a good idea for us to do that now because I don't know that you can fully rule out that, you know, some of the discretion is not emotionally driven, you know, there's clear indications of where you're sizing up and putting on, you know, taking too many trades and, you know, being too directionally certain, you know, in your perspective that, you know, your mind can manipulate, you know, what is sort of deemed as discretion. And, you know, I've said this to a number of traders recently for them, discretionary trading was just like a cheat code to get them to take trades outside their strategy that were more emotionally driven. So I don't know, what are your thoughts about that, that the ordering of those goals and how we're going to proceed here? I think that, I think you're right on specifically about that last thing you said where, yeah, I think when I take a discretionary trade, that's just an excuse for me to go off my discipline. So yeah, I'm with you. Yeah. Yeah, I mean, and like, you know, like you said, you've got a heavy focus on personal mental discipline. So I have no doubt that discipline has been a very important ethic and also an important driver of your success, but it also can, you know, become a bit rigid. And my sense is that you're reaching a point now where the utility of that discipline is starting to kind of decrease because it's not able to block out these emotional things that are just like peering through almost like a weed finding its way to, you know, emerge in the middle of like New York City, you know, and concrete jungle, like it finds a way to crack through and that's, that's what emotions can do. So the utility of that discipline kind of decreasing, but then you also probably are sensing that at this point in your career, you know so much that your bedrock of knowledge is so great that you authentically do have the opportunity to have more discretion, but without having that differential between what is discretion that is real and intuitive based versus discretion that is, you know, more emotionally driven, then it becomes hard for you to, especially somebody who is as disciplined as you are to truly trust that what you're doing is like, you know, truth, true and not just, you know, kind of random and emotional. Gotcha. One other thing, I think I don't have that questionnaire in front of me, but I think I mentioned it at some point in there and, but I, but I think one thing that I've been thinking a lot about between the time I filled that out and today is, you know, the other thing that, that I may want to put kind of on that, on those top three list as far as goals is one thing that I kind of sometimes am self-aware of and I, I've realized that sometimes I don't think I am and that is because I, because of the community that I run and I, you know, they see all my trades and so, you know, I think, I think I, I've become way more self-aware of it in the last two, two, two to three years, but I know at one point I would say that there is a, there's a, an issue where I would make decisions because of what I would think that the community would think as opposed to maybe what was, what I was supposed to be doing. You know, I, I, like I said, I really feel like I've, I'm doing, I do a lot better job at that now where I'm just trading the system, I'm trading the mechanics and following the rules because I, what I've realized is that is what's best for the community as opposed to me, you know, you know, it's kind of like one of those things where, okay, I'm going to, I'm going to hold on to this trade that's a loser because I don't want to show my community a losing trade as opposed to just cutting it, taking a loss and moving on it, whether, if I would have been doing that on my own, I may have just cut it and moved on and not, not a big, been a big deal, but that outside pressure of, you know, eyeballs on me. I know it, I mean, it, it still influences me. I know it does, but I think I've, I've gotten a lot better, but anyway, another kind of point to potentially dig into. Yeah, I mean, I would say that's probably under that first category of being kind of more aware of the emotions that like, just kind of pour through. Would you, I remember where, where it was in the questionnaire, I think was like under that kind of fear of failure, like this fear of like letting the community down. Is that what you're talking about here? Yep. Okay. I mean, so what I would say generally speaking, and I would kind of add this as like kind of your first task, though we have a lot of details here to work with. So it's not like we're starting from scratch, but I think from a discipline standpoint to add in this data collection process, like in real time while you're trading. And you know, I understand that there are certain instances where it can't be truly real time because you're actually in a trade or getting in and out. But as soon as, as soon as there is some breathing room to just kind of quickly reflect back and you know, that data collection worksheet I'll send to you so you have it. But basically what you're trying to capture are the instances where there is a clear kind of emotion present. Now it may not, you know, show itself as being, you know, like you may not feel the emotion in the moment, right? You may not feel the overconfidence to greed, some of the fear. It may be a thought, but that's why the data collection is necessary. So if there are indications, even just like thoughts about violating your strategy, thoughts that are kind of in the camp of, you know, an overconfident, greedy, fearful or, you know, the example you just gave of having those extra thoughts about your community to go through that data collection in its entirety. So you're capturing the trigger, like what was the situation and what, what triggered that emotion? Can you articulate what the emotion is? Are there specific thoughts that are coming to mind at that moment? What are some of the actions or behaviors that are associated with it? And then how is your perception of the market, perception of your positions, your decision-making process then kind of altered in that moment? And by kind of capturing that data, you know, as much as possible, we're going to gather up the details to begin to create more patterning so that much like what you do in your trading, right, you can have a sense of kind of internal gauge and internal sense of the, you know, rise and fall of these emotions in real time, even if they're not as, you know, present as they might be for, you know, a more junior trader because the thing that you are going to deal with, which is, you know, true of all the traders I work with that are at or above your experience level is that we're not dealing with their big problems anymore, right? You've solved a lot of the stuff. You've, you know, massage and manage your way through. And so it's kind of like the princess in the peace scenario here. Like, we got to get really, really kind of subtle and precise to remove any imperfections that cloud your judgment and then alter your, ultimately your execution. And so that's why I say at the beginning of this, you might set a timer, right? Every 30 minutes, you just do it as a check-in. It could be at certain cadences within the day based on your existing kind of routine and how you're trading. But to have the kind of regular, it's not just a mental check-in where you're thinking. It's like a regular check-in where you're writing things down. So it's very clear, very objective, and then we can kind of relook at that next time around. But that is kind of the beginning of this, you know, desire to get really, really precise situationally, because again, you've got a lot already. So again, we're not starting to scratch, but I'm certain that there's going to be more, you know, manipulative thoughts that your mind comes up with to even just consider trades outside of your strategy. And then maybe it doesn't affect you that time, but the velocity of it starts to increase. And then as the day goes on, maybe based on market conditions, you know, your P&L on that day, what other traders in the community are doing, like you just become more vulnerable to making a mistake. But it's sometimes hard to kind of put those pieces together when you don't have kind of the full scope of how the day kind of proceeded. Got it. Yeah, that's good. Great. Okay. So from the data collection, you know, our main goal is to get at the root causality. What are the underlying flaws, biases, wishes, illusions, etc. They're kind of driving these emotional reactions and ultimately driving the thoughts, behaviors, and the mistakes they're in. So I've done a little bit of brainstorming myself and came up with a list. So, which is talking about the list and see how well it kind of lines up because my guess is that once we have a good list of these flaws, you might naturally think about more ways in which they show up because the good thing about it is that when you recognize more situations where they show up, like you just get more training because every single time they pop up, you've got an opportunity to correct it. And now we wouldn't wish for them to show up more, but if they are, well, then we've got to take advantage of the opportunity that's presented. So, I already kind of mentioned this one, which is being overly competitive. So, and I would never say that having an intense competitive drive is problematic, but it's clear there are a few instances where that competitiveness seems to get the better of you. Would you agree with that? And are there some specific situations that you would, you know, kind of expand on where that shows up? Yeah, no doubt. That's definitely a big one for me. You know, I mean, I grew up playing sports. It's just competition has been a part of my life since I remember. So, yeah, and that's definitely become part of trading. I would say where it shows up is yeah, kind of what you, what you mentioned. I mean, you see other other folks in the community posting, you know, profits for the day or the week or the month. And, and, you know, I can't, I can't let them get the best of me, right? I mean, I mean, you know, I got to win. So, you know, that would be one thing which, you know, in turn would cause me to potentially increase position size or trade more. You know, do trades that I wasn't planning on, you know, kind of going back to that discretionary thing or trades outside of outside of what my trade plan dictates. So, yeah, I would say all three of those. Okay. And while we're here, it's the little digging. Do you have a sense as to what is driving the excessiveness? Cause again, the competitive drive is great. I mean, love it. It crosses a line and, and that's that that's the part that we're trying to understand. Like, do you have a sense as to what might be driving just that little bit of excessiveness? You know, that that becomes problematic. Why do I, why do I want to win? Or what? Why do I want to make more money? Make more or like at that level? Like, so there's again, the competitiveness is not the problem. It's that there's an excessive drive to compete against others in a way that ultimately then hurts you. If if all, if you're competitive drive was not real resulting in any self-inflicted wounds, then we're good. So, yeah, what do you do you have a sense as to what's just making it a little bit excessive? I would say there's a sense of like a like admiration. Right. I mean, you know, it's like, wow, so and so made so much, you know, that's kind of admirable, right? It's so it's like, you know, if I, you know, if I can, if I can show that I made this much, you know, it's like, I think the community would admire me more, maybe, or you know, I mean, because it's it, I definitely don't think it's a materialistic thing. I mean, I kind of have everything I've ever needed. And, you know, I mean, we're humans. So there's always, you know, we're Americans too. So we like excess, but I would say, I would say the admiration thing is probably a driving. If I'm being honest about just kind of my, you know, I don't think about it consciously, but now that you ask it, I think that would probably be part of it. And is that something that you see outside of trading? Right? Does it show up in your day to day life where there's maybe some subtle part of you that kind of wants to be complimented or wants to be noticed or recognized? Yeah, I think, I mean, even with my family, you know, I talked to my kids about stuff. They're out there now. I've unfortunately, probably not a good thing, but now I've almost trained them. So now every time I pick them up, they're like, how much did you make today trading dad? So now it's like, I can't wait to tell my kids how much I made today. You know, that kind of thing, which probably is not healthy. So I mean, admiration from family. I would say yeah, friends too. I mean, I had a, I just had a good friend in my office the other day who that has never traded. Now, there's nothing about what a put or a call is. You know, and it was, you know, I fired up my platform and I was like, Hey, you know, here's here's what I've done this month. Here's what I've done this year. Why would I do that other than to be like, oh, he's going to think I'm awesome, right? I mean, I guess I wanted to show him what the opportunity was to to get him, you know, because he was, he just sold a business and he's sitting on some money and he's trying to figure out what to do with all his money. So I don't know. It's, but I think, I think what it, you know, if I'm being honest, it really comes down to adoration from that perspective too. Yeah. And again, like people are complicated. So like 90% of your desire to show him could have been truly authentically like, Hey, man, like, let me just show you what's what I'm doing. But then there's that 10% that's like a little bit more, what I would say, kind of confidence driven, right? There's a part of your confidence that is seeking validation, recognition, sense of something from other people that ultimately that you're not giving to yourself. And I'll sort of throw out an idea that is the most basic kind of cause of this. Now, you mentioned that you're not a perfectionist, but that you can have high expectations of yourself and other people around you. So the high expectation dynamic can create what I call an accumulated debt. Because confidence is just perception. So if you were truly 100% accurate about your skills as a trader, your capacity, you know, the understanding of the knowledge that you have and you know, just feeling incredibly solid and about it. Right? I don't think you'd have any of this sense of need for admiration. I think there's just a piece of it that has gone under recognized and part of this accumulated debt. Why? Because when you have high expectations, you're basically like fighting to get back to like break even because break even it from an expectation standpoint is like doing what you're supposed to do. Now, I'm not saying it from a financial standpoint, but I'm saying it from like a feedback standpoint, how confidence gets like kind of accurately created is by having accurate feedback. Right? And this is why markets and poker right these environments with a lot of false feedback become really, really problematic for newer traders or players. But for ourselves when we're being measured up against the standard that is incredibly high, right? Most often you're going to fall below it and only when you hit it, you know, but then even then you're only doing what you're supposed to. So you don't really gain any confidence from that. So what ends up happening is right? We kind of get trapped in this dynamic where we're striving to hit that expectation. But if we fall short of it in a way that could actually be progressive, right? Like there's a lot of steps that have to be taken. There's a lot of, you know, skills and knowledge that have to be developed in order to keep kind of climbing higher and higher. And if that is under recognized because we're only focused on those end outcomes, then a part of you becomes under recognized. And then we go seeking through bigger and bigger trades through admiration from other, other traders from a community of people who are telling you how great you are to kind of make up for that lost pride satisfaction, etc. That needs to be and must be generated internally because there is nothing external that can replace that accumulated debt, that that gap in our perception. So again, I kind of throw a long little example there, but how relevant do you think that is for describing maybe what's missing and why you're seeking that admiration in that way? I think, I think it's very relevant. I guess my question would be if I satisfy that confidence internally, does my drive go away to continue to be a better trader? You're asking the most common next question when I describe this. And the answer is no, because confidence and motivation are two different things. So that's the fear with high people with high expectations and are super competitive. It's like, oh, if I feel good about what I've done, well, then my motivation is going to go away. Right. If that's true, then your motivation was never about what you were striving for. Got it. Right. Then it was only about seeking that admiration. And then once you get it, well, then find another place for your motivation and it'll be more pure and natural, but most likely because of all the things you've mentioned in terms of what you love about trading, I would just checks all the boxes for you and intellectually from a challenge standpoint, creativity. Like there's lots of things here that drive you that are pure and that motivation is separate. Right. High expectations absolutely are big motivational driver for a lot of people, but when they undermine confidence, they actually start to undermine your motivation. So ideally, right by acknowledging the success that you've had and the progress that you've had and the skills you'd acquired, the knowledge that you have, the experience that by validating that, and acknowledging those pieces, like it should stabilize confidence and then allow your motivation to be as driven as it ever has been. And I would argue that the part of you that's a bit like overly focused on results, which has caused you, again, this is my assumption, which has caused you to not set monetary targets anymore and to try to be us results oriented, right that you've done that because it's like contaminated your confidence a little bit, right? Your confidence goes goes up and down way more because you're overly attached to it because you're overly competitive, right. But if your confidence gets stabilized in the way I'm describing, then I believe you'll be able to start setting monetary targets in a in a more pragmatic practical way, not being overly attached to them, but using them as a driver, right? Using them as a motivator and they don't, it doesn't have to be the only thing, right? For me, you know, setting like a very specific top line number to be motivated by on a monthly quarterly yearly basis is a bit empty, right? I rather set like ranges because you don't, you can't control market conditions. You can't control variance. Let's make sure that we're always motivated to hit somewhere within that range. We've got like the bottom end, you know, the year was kind of crap. Market was shitty for my strategy. You know, I was like, you know, struggling with some variance, whatever, and then you got a top line goal. So you kind of always stay motivated, but then we really bake out what you already do really well, which is like the process goals that are going to be primarily like what you're doing day to day and kind of building your trading business. But all that's from a motivational standpoint and it gets cleaner and easier to manage when your confidence is more stabilized. So doing the work that I'm going to suggest in a second is not going to result in the fear that you have there. And if it does, then then trading was never really something that you know, like touched your soul in a way that like is really something that you truly love and are passionate about. It's more something that you were just using to get the admiration, which I suspect is not the case. Yeah. Yeah. So I guess, I guess the reason that because I used to set those specific financial goals and the reason and I'm sure what you're saying is accurate part of you know, the issue for sure, but I think the issue that I've at least consciously found myself in is if I had a monetary goal, I would make decisions in my trading based on those goals, not my process or my you know, setups and what I was supposed to be doing. And you do that because your confidence is on the line. Got it. Okay. You know, makes sense. When you when you have a base of confidence that is indestructible, then you don't need to hit those P and L targets in the way that you previously needed to you want to you're driven like hell to do it like and everything you're doing the way that you're structuring, you know, your day to day is all in service of those goals, but your confidence is not on the line. And if you fall short, then you can be ruthless at understanding why and the mistakes that were made or the changes in the structure of the market and what you've got to understand and how to adapt and you can be like really, really motivated to do all that, but your confidence never on the line. It's all kind of bonus material here. And I think that's one of the things that for somebody in your position can do, right? The trader has only been doing this for a couple of years. They don't have the proof to be able to do it in a way that you have with way that you can because what you're doing is yours. You're you've got like kind of this like confidence like locked away in a safety deposit box. You're like thinking that it's not even part of you and day to day you're you don't have access to it. So all we're going to try to do is like unlock what you have earned. We're not blowing smoke up your eyes, right? This is all about what you have earned to help to stabilize and create something that is truly like, you know, can't be touched because no one would ever say that like, you know, Dirk Nowitzki is a failure because the only one one NBA championship. Right? And no one would ever say, you know, any champ in any great athlete, you know, failed because they didn't defend the title because like, no, like I won this major championship. I won this title. It can never be taken away from and in trading just like in poker and a lot of other, you know, intellectually competitive, you know, endeavors. They don't we don't really kind of have those things that are just kind of clearly recognized, right? And yet they do exist. Like you have a skill set that can't be bought that you have earned and developed and honed. You have results that can't be bought that have been earned and like so to at this point in your career, I believe that it's impossible for you to fail and I believe that your conception of what failure would is would even entail is based on a flaw that's a bit binary, right? That it's possible like you could fail today and that's true, right? You could, you know, lose your kind of sense of the market and kind of go on to whatever like you could stop being profitable that that's possible. But would that be a failure in the way that it feels? No, I don't think that's possible and the only reason it feels that way is because your base of confidence is not reflective of what you've earned to date. I don't mean that financially mean that in terms of all the skills and knowledge experience you have. Got it. That makes sense. Yeah. Well, I mean, when you hear that, what's what's what comes to mind? Um, I agree. I do think so I have I have my processes and I and I think I think back when I used to set financial goals and I would do those things out of bounds to achieve those goals that weren't what I should have been doing, you know, based on my processes and procedures and rules. I did now that you're just as yours as you were talking what was going through my mind was. Yeah, I don't actually I don't think I would do that again. I think my processes have become such a part of me that I think it I think it could be something that I could do now that I couldn't do then. So I think if you do it, it's actually going to help to expose more of the emotional weaknesses that need to get fixed anyway to become the type of discretionary trader that you want. So it might put a little bit more pressure and heat on you, which we'd welcome because it's going to expose some of these things that might have been hidden by this, you know, kind of overly process oriented approach. Got it. I agree. So here's the task. You know, I'll send you this worksheet as well. It's you know, it's called a perfectionism worksheet, but really I use it for lots of reasons. And the task includes writing down your accomplishments and beginning to kind of break apart how you achieve those accomplishments, the skills and knowledge that was learned along the way, the mistakes that were made, lessons learned, you know, it's it's you know, taking some time to kind of look at like the the headline, you know, here is a distinct accomplishment that I had and and then like breaking it apart and understanding how you were able to achieve it. And those are these like daily accomplishments or these longer term. These is this so in the future you certainly could add this. I mean, frankly, you could add it to your, you know, kind of daily cool down, you know, kind of end of day routine if you wanted to, but for fixing the issue that we're talking about now, it has to be retrospective of like, you know, and here's the what you're looking for. It's any of your past accomplishments that has gone under recognized and you know, it's maybe tough to kind of determine right now, which ones have gone under recognized. I think the assumption is that most of them probably have to some degree and by kind of relooking at them and really kind of unpacking how you did it. We're looking to kind of like reset and reorient your expectations, right? Because to me that that benchmark was was like aspirational and it didn't allow you to have the accurate sense of what you were accomplishing at that time. And you know, to some degree, it's almost impossible for us to have that, you know, what we're going through it or you know, shortly thereafter, you don't know, you know, eight years ago, how what you learned then might be impacting you today because it hasn't happened yet, but I'm sure there are some straight lines that you can draw between things that you've accomplished and how those have been, you know, real stepping stones for where you are today and being able to acknowledge and solidify that allows you to feel more like you're standing on bedrock rather than feeling like every day you're standing on a cloud that can just like what you sink under and then you've got this, these like really hardened rules and discipline to prevent you from from dropping, which is what you have. But you know, like you said, do I really need to have all that in place to prevent me from bad behavior? My my my suspicion is no, right? That that the rules and discipline had become so internalized that you probably have room to be freed up a little bit more and allow yourself to yeah, not yet, but eventually move towards some more, you know, kind of accurate discretion. So the this task comes with one rule, which is that you can't do it for more than 10 minutes at a time. You can do it multiple times a day. But it's one of those things where you really have to think of it like eating food. You know, you've been starving yourself to some degree. You've been undernourished in terms of the recognition and you know, you you spend an hour, you know, one day a week. You're not going to get much out of it. It's going to keep the we're talking about reshaping your perception so that every day your new default is to internally kind of have this sense of stability and this may sound a little strange, but the way that I've described this and people feel it. So is it's almost like your bones become denser. Not your muscles flexing more. Like the integrity of your structural system becomes more solid. Like, you know, an engine building that's been engineered with you know, steel that is is just stronger. It's like there's more integrity to that. That is what you're trying to create here. And when you have that, it does feel almost like you're just more grounded and more stable, you know, by default and that is the goal. And you know, it's not going to, it may not happen immediately. You know, but I think, you know, day over day week over week, you know, come a month out from now. You know, doing this task regularly, you will feel different to what to what extent we're not sure yet. That's it. Give any questions on a task. I mean, once I send you the worksheet, it might come a little bit clear, but it's not overly complicated. It's just, you know, I'd say one thing you can do is like come up with a list of past accomplishments and then steadily kind of pluck one off or, you know, if you have one as you're kind of coming to that list, it just like springs the mind and you just want to dive in and go for it. Like you can be a little bit spontaneous in this. It's just the frequency and the regularity. That is the most important thing. How you do it is fine. And if you find a day where you can't think of a new one, then just go back and reread ones that you've already done. And so are you have it or what's what's kind of a normal frequency of these? You said don't spend more than 10 minutes at a time. But is this multiple times a day once a day? What do you see your discretion? Yeah. I mean, to me that I try to keep it doable. So once a day is what I would say if you could do it, you know, two to three times a day, you know, it will make a difference. Again, kind of like eating food. So you could do it like three times a day for 30 for three minutes at a time. You know, it's not you're not going to do much in that time period, right? Like, but that's okay because you it's remarkable how much you can do in one minute when you're kind of focused and dedicated to something like this and how much can come out. And you know, just having like a little bit of recognition for something. You know, it matters and it builds up and accumulates versus this like profound experience. Like, oh my God, I you know, feel so good about what I've done before and then three days later, it's like kind of in the distant memory, which is the problem, right? So we're trying to like almost train you in a sense to have a sense of appreciation and connection to this path to these past accomplishments, etc. And how they fit, you know, in your trading today. And that can't be something that's accomplished. You know, in one go. It's this is a this is a much like building muscle. Although we're not building muscle. It's the the bone. So are you are you suggesting that all or none or just some of these things are trading related? Does it matter? I am suggesting that well, where your mind just went may makes me think maybe there is more of a personal link here also. So I would say like for our purposes, like start with the trading stuff. But then if your mind easily dives into, you know, things that you've done outside of your being a personal life as an adult, it could be things when you're younger as a kid. I mean, I remember, you know, I won a golf tournament sophomore summer and at the time, like it was like the biggest accomplishment of my life. I walk off the golf course, not 10 minutes later. I'm going, well, it wasn't the U.S. Open. So, you know, what is it? Like that it was gone. And and so, you know, again, where there are things earlier in your life that are kind of fitting this category that need to get recognized that can kind of help build the base. Go for it. I'm not gonna, I'm not gonna let your, I think let your mind go where, where wants to go and see where, see where it takes you. Okay. All right. So, what you can do immediately as you start doing that accomplishment work is take any of those ideas that come up and use it as a, as that injecting logic statement to bring into those moments where you sense yourself wanting or seeking admiration from others. Because if you recognize that, that desire to seek admiration for others, or you recognize right that you're scaling up in a trade that's too big, like you can very easily let your discipline come in and correct it. Stop it in its tracks, but you're not correcting the problem. So it's through the deeper understanding of the causality that you're able to construct a correction and injecting logic is basically the correction trained and brought into those moments. So when you sense that you have this admiration for others, you want to, you know, avoid closing a trade that's a loser. Right. What's the, it's like maybe the logic as well. I'm actually might feel quite good about closing a loser because it reminds me of how strong I am. Right. And I'm, and whatever is going to come as a result of this, like I'm strong enough to take. Or it's like, no, like this loss, you know, it doesn't really, it's not really going to affect me because of how much I've already accomplished. It's just like the little tip of the iceberg is nothing that I'm not like seeking replacements for, you know, accomplishments that have been under under or not recognized. Gotcha. And so it's kind of bringing that in the moment to begin to weave it and see if that, if your emotional reaction changes so that you can avoid or you can actually close that trade naturally. Right. That that's ultimately the goal and what you do in all other situations. Okay. So I mentioned the being overly results oriented. You know, another flaw that came out was there are times where you get ahead of yourself where a bit of overconfidence creeps in and there begins this the sense of like you're just trying to make even more money because you've been doing well, you know, trading bigger, right, all of it kind of becomes a bit kind of directionally determined, even though right, you can't make those those firm determinations. Are there kind of other situations where you would say that you would tend to get ahead of yourself? I would say another one would be like if I start creating or kind of developing a new strategy or start trading a new strategy. Um, I would say that I would get ahead of myself because I would you know, start start trading it with size before it was necessarily proven based on just what I just because I thought it was good, you know, or or you know, and and I had this I don't remember how long ago it was, but there was a situation where I started trading something because and I didn't really know how it would act in different implied volatility environments, but I thought I did because hey, I've been trading options for long enough. I know how this stuff works, you know, so that was kind of that overconfidence and without getting the proof and the validation of testing and trading super small. I decided to just kind of go in, you know, with with significant size. So I would I would say that's getting a getting a little ahead ahead of myself. I would say so too. All right. So in that scenario and others, what do you think is driving that? In this specific scenario, it was me and a good friend of mine who trades. So this isn't this isn't something that I shared with the community. It wasn't like a trade that I posted for them or anything like that. So it was just it was just a friend of mine, but I I mean, honestly, I think it comes back to what we've been talking about this whole time, which is you know, kind of admiration. You know, I was showing him what I had on and what I thought it was going to do and you know, that kind of stuff. So is yet the the shitty psychic in you, which you kind of alluded to there, which is the like thinking that you know like what the market's going to do as much as you know that you don't you can't right. There's just that reflex to have that happen. And so they kind of feel linked here and if your assessment is that it's the desire for admiration that kind of compels you to have your assumptions be validated like you're you're believing that what you think is true and because if that were to happen. Well, then it becomes self-reinforcing and you would get the admiration. But obviously it's not true because it didn't happen because you thought it happened. It happened because probabilistically it just was your time. So it becomes this sort of like false feedback for your confidence. So it's an interesting dynamic and this has happened for a lot of people, a lot of traders. The way they sort of seek that kind of confidence actually undermines it if they get it. So you know, you could use again like kind of the trigger or the recognition that you're you're just kind of thinking to deterministically about market direction or the viability of a new strategy or you know, the outcome of a particular trade. You can use that as a trigger to then kind of link back to this admiration. It's like, you know, let me build confidence the right way. And and I don't know what's going to happen in this trade and I don't need to know because I've proven that I've been in this situation hundreds of not well thousands of times and have edge. It's all I need. I've got profit margin here. My business is viable. I don't need to know whether this customer is going to buy my t-shirt today. I don't need to know that this trade is going to work out. I've got that's that's the way the other the other part of that specific situation. And and I mean this obviously just one example. I've done it many other times over the last 20 years, but this is just the one that kind of came to mind and this buddy of mine, we've been friends for a long time and we're just kind of going back to what you're saying about competitiveness. We're just we're super competitive with each other. So anytime we can, you know, one up each other. That's just what we do. So that, you know, that was part of it too. So going back to what you originally talked about with competitiveness as well. Yeah. And look, I mean, that stuff is fun, you know, but again, you can have like the the competitiveness with somebody else like that and have it be exactly the same. But have it be driven for more pure reasons, which is to one up him versus like by one up in him, I get admiration. And that that I think makes it a little bit more fun and a little bit more pure. Like it, you know, yeah, it just it no longer makes it about him, you know, in a sense, he's not giving. So just take a time here. The the last kind of flaw that I'd outline and let's see what was this like trying to make money too fast. Scenarios where that comes in. Um, yeah, that's that's kind of along the lines of, you know, if usually happens when everything's going really well, you know, I get that euphoria, everything I touch turns to gold kind of feeling can't lose. And so then, you know, you start your mind starts playing tricks on you and start saying, you know, if I just if I do this, then my account will be this size and then I can go buy this and then you know, that kind of thing. And next thing you know, that's when the market loves to slap you. So let's try a different sort of next step here. Um, just imagine like a situation like you just described, uh, not that you've, you know, kind of got sucked into, um, you know, any portrayed but just that your mind is kind of is still raptured in this, uh, you know, kind of fantasy of what could be accomplished or what could be made. Uh, but this time there's a recognition that, uh, admiration is not to be gained through any of the means in which you're envisioning that you already have it, like you feel solid and happy, proud, satisfied in a real authentic way. Does that take some of the, the, the intensity, the velocity out of that, that dream and a way that kind of can bring you back down and allow you to be more pragmatic and practical? I don't know. I, I just, I know that every time that I've started having those thoughts, it ends badly. Um, and it's like, and so I've, it's almost like what I've done personally to like try to train myself is as soon as I start thinking like that, I just, I just shut it down and try to put blinders on and and forget about it and that seems to work for me. I don't know if that's the right approach to it, but that's, that's what I've done. Well, you're, I mean, you're managing it, but you haven't solved it. Right. So maybe that's, um, like the last place that we'll try to crack, you know, that these first two seem very practical and, and easy to kind of weave in this, uh, you know, kind of admiration, uh, correction. And maybe it's driven by something else. Maybe there is, um, uh, maybe it's actually a bit more tied to discretion, um, and, and a sense of like a kind of being in the zone and having some authentic intuition being generated, but not really understanding how to use it practically. Um, so maybe we just kind of keep that one on the side for now. And, um, if there's, if there is some natural progress, uh, you know, given what we talked about, then, then great. And if not, then we'll kind of relook at it next time, uh, you know, from a different, different angle. Perfect. By the way, in, in regards to the whole discretion thing, one thing that I have been doing, um, since I've filled out that questionnaire between then and today is I do have just a small futures only account. And, um, you know, I'm just trading like micro futures on a discretionary basis because I, when I started having those thoughts and filling that out and thinking through that, I thought, well, let me just, why don't I just try this? And so I just set up an account, just a small account just to do kind of discretionary trading that way. Um, and that's, and you can tell me what you think about this, but that's been good from a perspective of now I have this little thing where I can get this discretionary bug out of my system and it's not, it's not material from a financial standpoint compared to what I'm doing over here in my rules based, you know, really, you know, discipline, methodical, uh, you know, options trading. Yeah, I mean, I would liken it to a business that's, um, you know, uh, investing in R and D for a future product. And that's what you're doing. You're just investing in another wing of your business, your trading business in the future. And so yeah, incubating it like that, I think it's great. Uh, I don't think I feel like it, I feel like it's helping me on my main discipline because now I don't have that urge to go off the rails and do discretionary stuff over here, which I may have in the past because I'm getting that out of my system over here. And I, that makes perfect sense. I think the longer term, you know, kind of viability on this is going to be, uh, like being able to kind of tap into the intuition that is being generated, that's allowing those discretionary trades to kind of emerge in your mind and like recognizing the conditions by which they tend to come, right? Situationally, even the markets also kind of the mental and emotional condition, right? You got to me, you've got to be in the zone or close to it in order to access reliable intuition that's going to be able to be utilized in some, some way shape or form. So, you know, it's kind of situationally recognizing when you're more accurate, but I think it makes perfect sense that it's, it's helping to, uh, take away a little of the intensity because you're actually getting to scratch the ish versus like pretending the ish doesn't exist. Right. Right. Yeah. Great. Okay. So like I said, I'll send you the data collection worksheet. So kind of continuing to be aware of those data points, you know, in real time, we've got now maybe some potential corrections that can be deployed fairly quickly on the heels of the perfectionism worksheet. But really the, the injecting logic statements, the corrections, you know, are just coming from a greater depth of understanding of what's causing those emotional reactions. And if it is, you know, the sort of sensor admiration coming on the heels of, you know, expectations damaging confidence, then, you know, it's, it's going to take a little bit for that confidence to get solidified in a way that's naturally going to allow those emotional reflexes to go away. So that's why you've got to be ready to kind of battle them because they're going to keep coming. Right. The habit there is in there pretty good. So you see it, correct it. And just kind of see how much progress you make in the next, the next little chunk of time here. Awesome. I'm excited about this. I can already, I can already, I can already see what's going to be developing inside me. Awesome. Give me any questions or any thoughts before we wrap up? No, nothing else at this point. Okay, rock and roll. Awesome.