 Hello and welcome to NewsClick. Today, we're very happy to be joined from Jerusalem, Palestine, by Feruz Sharqawi, who is the Global Mobilization Coordinator for grassroots alcoots. Feruz, welcome to NewsClick. Thank you, Vijay. I'm very happy to be here. It's great to have you. I wanted to start by asking you about something that you've become quite famous for. You quite famously say of people who come and visit Palestine that they seem to have all the solutions for the Palestinian people, but nobody seems to listen to what the Palestinians are saying and what the Palestinians want. What do the Palestinians want in 2020? Well, that is certainly what I think is going on. And I think that Palestinians in 2020 want to lead the change they want to see in Palestine. I think that Palestinians on many different levels working in different fields are finally reaching a conclusion. And this is the result of a process of trial and error and experience and trying and seeing for ourselves. Many experiences that this appointed Palestinians, experiences and people and voices that came and suggested solutions. And these solutions did not work. They did not become real. They did not hold. They were not sustainable. And so I think that what is mostly going on today in Palestine is that Palestinians are aware that if we want to reach freedom and liberty and achieve self-determination, then we need to dictate the rules of the game. We need to decide which path to take and we need to lead our movement and struggle. You know, it's very, what you're saying is very true. When you say a word like we need to lead, I think it's hard to disagree with you. The problem, of course, is who is the we? There are so many different factions in Palestine. There is the Palestinian Authority and so on. I remember now over a decade ago when the Palestinian political prisoners wrote a letter from their jails. One of the things that they mentioned in the letter of Eruz, and I think this is a point that I think is often forgotten, is that they asked for the different political groups to come together and construct a new Palestinian project. Who is the we that you're talking about? Well, I am certainly not talking about political parties and I am not talking about the Palestinian Authority as our political leadership. When I say we, I mean the people. I mean the grassroots. Our political leadership is one of the obstacles on our path to freedom and to liberation. The Palestinian Authority is certainly not the we I am talking about. The Palestinian Authority, as I see it, as many Palestinians see it, is just an integral part of the colonial system in Palestine. And it is not only allowing but enabling and serving the occupation and the Israeli colonial project in Palestine. And so when I say we, I am talking about the people. I am talking about civil society organizations. I am talking about grassroots movements that are happening and have formed over many years in Palestine. So I am talking about people that are creating this change on the ground. I am talking about a network of organizations and movements and individuals and businesses and many, many, many institutions, not formal in that sense, that are working today. They are, many of them are working locally because of the political reality that is based on the divide and conquer and the fragmentation. So the fragmentation of the Palestinian communities of Palestinian territories of Palestinian cities and also within the same district between the different villages and the city. And so a lot of work is being done on inspiring. It is amazing. People are realizing the power that they have. So you see, for example, farms that are being built or created or taking new paths into how do we market our products? How do we market our produce in a way that helps us sustain ourselves? Because eventually we are fighting a big oil economic system that is the occupations economy. And these farms are now working locally into sustaining themselves. And when I say we, I am talking about all of these dots connected into one big network of coordinated popular movements that push the Palestinian struggle into that direction that is also dictated by the people themselves. That's a very hopeful sign if indeed there are these dots that are connected into a network. Of course, at some point the political parties will have to become part of this because they also have sections of the people with them. I mean, I suppose I'm going to ask you a question that comes from a slight sense of disbelief in a way. Because at this time, you're dealing with the longest prime ministership in Israel, the prime ministership of Benjamin Netanyahu, who is entirely committed to the annexation, complete annexation, not this partial annexation, complete annexation of the West Bank and Jerusalem, not just East Jerusalem. He is back to the hilt by the US government, and I don't just mean the Trump administration, but by the whole of the US government, Democrat and Republican Party, he seems to raise personal issues with the Europeans, but they don't seem to have a problem with his agenda if you come down to it. Given all this, given this, it's with disbelief that I ask you how can a group of farmers stand up to this extraordinary power block? Listen, being hopeful is part, I think, of being a Palestinian or any person who lives under oppression. It's a part that if you lose, then it's sad and it's not a good sign about the future. But at the same time, of course, there is the awareness of how the situation, how hard the situation and challenging the situation is. Of course, yes, we are talking about a colonized people who have no sovereignty, no authority that are under attack on so many different fronts. The occupation and the Israeli colonial policies and plans on the one hand, and then our own political leadership, the Palestinian Authority, who is also oppressing the Palestinians, regardless of the occupation. I mean, any criticism of the Palestinian Authority takes you to jail, which is something we are witnessing right now. So many different fronts and also international economic colonization of Palestine as well. And so it is very challenging without any organizing. And I am not saying that the Palestinian people are close to being ready for this confrontation, but it's very important to be strategic. It is very important to, first of all, understand what you are facing. And I think that it is clear now for Palestinians that we are facing a very well-oiled Israeli Zionist occupation machine, but that is also enabled and allowed and enabled by an international complicity by governments and corporations and with a lot of help from within. And of course, when I say international, I am talking about also about the Arab world and just a hint towards current news about the United Arab Emirates. And so it's important to be aware what we are facing. It is important to learn from our mistakes, but also from our strong experiences. At the same time that I say that we have tried international aid, for example, international aid came with big, big promises and big hopes for the Palestinian people. And in the beginning, we were very happy because someone is actually trying to help someone is pouring money into Palestine. And then it took us a decade or two to understand very quickly that the system is corruptive. The system is part of the colonial system globally. It is an extension of colonialism and not an answer to it. And so after experiencing all of these negative experiences and learning from them, we also should remember our history. And we should remember that not so far away past during the first Intifada, for example, how many inspiring examples we had of community organizing, proper community organizing. And it was the people leading the movement. Back then, the political parties and the factions were part of the people. And they are no longer part of the people. And that is why there is this alienation and that is why there is no cooperation between them. We have different discourses. We have, we speak a different language. They don't represent the people as they used to in the past, but in the not so far away past, they were an integral part of the people. And we had a very beautiful example of how our resistance can look. So learning from these experiences in the past, we have the tools to build our future. And so it's hard. I am not saying that it's going to be easy. I am saying that with each year and then five years and a decade passing with all of the pain and the disappointment and the frustration, we should also see the hope. We should also see the knowledge, the ability to plan for our future. And most of all realizing that it should be us leading. Otherwise, it will not work. I think that, you know, it's not just that there's been a corrosiveness in the politics inside West Asia. I mean, it's not just in the West Bank or in East Jerusalem. It's, of course, the whole region is convulsed, has been convulsed by war since, let's say, the US invasion of Iraq and around that period. But now even more, and I want you to reflect on this, even more stalwart allies of the Palestinian people, like the Indian government, for instance, stalwart ally. You know, Yasser Arafat used to say, Indira Gandhi is my real sister. You know, when I remember in 1983, when Arafat came for the non-aligned meeting, he was greeted at the Tamak in Delhi airport by Indira Gandhi. He was not ahead of government, you know, and she came to meet him because they had a real bond. And now the real bond is Narendra Modi with Benjamin Netanyahu. The attrition of international interstate support for Palestine has been quite extraordinary. And the United Arab Emirates coming out in this way is not new in that sense. What is the, how are Palestinians seeing this loss of support, you know, from countries like India, buying arms from Israel, the UAE and so on? How are Palestinians seeing this loss of support? Well, on the one hand, Palestinians are not surprised, maybe less surprised from the Emirates than India, I'm not sure. It's not like the Palestinians are not aware that there are secret relations that are built by Israel with not only Arab countries, but many, many countries around the world. And people are angry, of course, but I think people are also a bit tired of the drama, maybe. It's not a huge change in reality. It's not a huge change in facts on the ground. And there is a Palestinian voice that says, okay, at least we appreciate the honesty. We appreciate that it's official. It makes it easier for us to face it. But in general, I think that's a very important point to make about Israel's situation, situating itself in a very central place globally. When it comes to economy, when it comes to high tech, when it comes to development, when it comes to arms trade. And that is one of the strengths that Israel has that unfortunately even us Palestinians, we tend to forget when we talk about international support to Israel. People usually immediately, it's easier to remember that $3.8 billion that are sent every year by the United States. Maybe people remember Germany selling submarines to Israel, but people do not remember that Israel is developing Africa. The fact that Israel is interfering in conflicts around the world, benefitting as a warlord from selling arms, from selling techniques and technology, for population control, for incarceration, for prisons, military, all of the expertise that Israel has here, it is selling globally. And I think that it is important that we become aware of it, first of all, which also makes us aware of that global also change in the atmosphere. Globally, the world is becoming more far right. The world is becoming fascist, openly fascist, the Nazi and it's becoming more and more frustrating every day to see another government fall and another government fall, imperialism, capitalism. And this is the result of that, that the result of capitalism taken over the world is that it has become law. It has become something that is very easy to ditch. It's very, sorry, it's very hard to break free out of. And that is the result when Israel is building capitalist relationships with these countries, then these countries' foreign policy is always going to support Israel. They vote to support it in the United Nations. They vote things. They give it money. They give it products. And so we are facing this big network and that's, for example, a point where at the organization I work at, at grassroots al-Quds, in the past five years ago, we decided that our international advocacy should not go towards decision makers. Decision makers are not going to care about the report that I have so carefully written, citing international law and the Fourth Geneva Convention and speaking about human rights violations in Palestine. It might move them personally, but as a person doing this job in some other country's government, they're not going to go by human rights. They go by economic interest. And so we decided that we are shifting our advocacy towards the grassroots, towards the people in these countries, and we count on the people in other countries becoming aware of their own political realities, becoming aware that the same government that is supporting Israel is the same government that is probably oppressing you, that is probably building a harsher political reality to you internally. These are two sides of the same coin, as long as there is oppression of people of color in the United States, and this means, and in indigenous Americans, of course, this means that the foreign policy is also going to be supportive of Israel in Palestine. It might be supportive of other colonizers and other countries and governments that are oppressing others anywhere else. It's a network. It's a network of oppressors, and we should build our global network of resistance against it. You know, I don't know if you know, Ferus, but in 2017, the All India Kisan Sabha, which is the farmers movement in India, the Communist Farmers Movement, it's the mass organization of the Communist Party of India, Marxist, the All India Kisan Sabha, 16 million members, Ferus, voted for boycott, diversity and sanctions with Israel. Now, the reason I'm raising this to you is I'm sure you didn't know that. Because one of the things I find is that even BDS is directed to Europe and the United States and not to South America, Africa and Asia. And I wonder if there is room to reflect a little bit on the need, as you say, to pivot from so called decision makers to the people. Is there a way for Palestinian solidarity to return once again from an obsession with what the United States is thinking to what's going on in the other countries of the South? Yeah, certainly. That's a very good point. First of all, I am sorry, I don't know enough to speak about the history, but I think it should be researched and people should find out what happened with Palestine and other countries' solidarities that existed in the past. I think back then we had the PLO as a serious representative of the Palestinian people and they took very good care of building and maintaining these networks. And now the current leadership is certainly not doing a good job, not even trying to do a good job because that is not the job that was given to them. But at the same time, I think what made it easier to connect with Europe and the United States is the fact that they are the white world that has the means to come to Palestine and to start building these connections. And then they invite Palestinian speakers to their countries, they can afford it, and so that was easy to start there. I certainly think that what is even more important to build around the world is solidarity networks between the people that are the global south, that are the people that are facing the oppressive systems and regimes. And I think that first of all, we have a lot more in common, and when I speak, I imagine that when I speak to an audience in India, they would know and understand and be able to imagine what I am describing much better and much more easily than a white old lady sitting in Pittsburgh. And so I think that it is very important to build these relationships first because we have a lot in common, which is going to be a very important factor in building that solidarity. But also I think that we are the people that should shift this global power structure. And so it's important that we support each other's movements, we support each other in our struggles. I think that no struggle can succeed locally, because again we are facing a global machine. And so I think that these struggles should be connected, they should support each other's work, they should push each other forward and at the same time also build long term strategies and visions to a better new world. Just one more question, Feruz. While we're talking, the Israeli military has been pummeling Gaza, almost every night, little bombings, bigger bombings and so on. It's very difficult to see stories about this particular run of bombings. People don't seem to be reporting it. You know, you get reports from Gaza that COVID-19 has arrived there. And of course that's a great concern because the Israeli suffocation of Gaza has meant its healthcare infrastructure is deteriorated. But this bombing. And so I want to ask you in Jerusalem, what is the situation in terms of how people see the Palestinians of Gaza at this time? And what is the general sense from Jerusalem of Gaza? Well, you are right that there isn't enough reporting about what's going on in Gaza. It's very scary to think about Gaza today with the bombings and with COVID-19 and the curfew inside Gaza. People are not allowed out because of the pandemic. I think that that is another process, that's another development that we have witnessed over the years as if news about bombing Gaza have become the norm. They are routine, unfortunately, even internally on a Palestinian level. And people are moved and people are angry and people share the news. But the sense, the feeling is that it's another bombing in Gaza. It's important that people know that Israel says that it's bombing Gaza because of the balloons. Balloons are being released from Gaza, causing many fires. But you know, it's always many things together when it comes to bombing Gaza. It's regional, it's never really just between Israel and Gaza or Israel and Hamas. I think that Gaza is an example. It's like a microcosm of Palestine. How also for people outside of Palestine news about Palestinians being bombed or killed, it's become routine. What's new? I think this is a development we need to be aware of and that we need also to start strategizing about how we continue saying that it is urgent without sounding boring because unfortunately people get bored and if they don't see that something can be done about it, it becomes another topic they'd rather not see on their news feed or hear about in the news. I think that it's a challenge and I think it's a big question for Palestinians how to deliver the message, how to tell our story, how to connect it to people in a way that makes it real for them because people have seen so many photos and so many videos that it has become something that I think psychologically people simply want to avoid. It's true that of course Palestinians are not victims but people who are seeking their emancipation. Thank you so much for joining us at New Slick. Thank you very much for having me.