 Welcome back to Talk Story with John Wahe'i and our special guests. This afternoon is Cahil Lewis. Cahil is the CEO of the, what was it called? It's called the Council of Native Hawaiian Advancement. I gotta get that right, because every one of us, you know, referring to the initials, but it's the Council of Native Hawaiian Advancement. And we are so pleased to have him here. Actually, we're gonna be talking this afternoon about some legislation that is in the, before the state legislature, that would give at least at this moment about $600 million for the Hawaiian Homes Program. But before we get into that, tell us a little bit about your agency Cahil. What is it that you do, and how are you involved with the subject matter about discussion? Thank you, Gav, for having me on the show. I feel like a veteran now. Couple of times now. I'm the CEO for the Council for Native Hawaiian Advancement, CNHA for short. It's been around for 20 years. It started in 2001, so actually it was 21st year we're in, but it was created to bring Hawaiians together to have conversations and dialogue about our future. We convened the annual Native Hawaiian Convention every year. It brings Hawaiians from across the United States together and even outside the United States. We are the largest of CDFI in the state, so Treasury Certified Community Lending Institution. We administer a number of programs, over $150 million worth of programs to support and uplift our communities. That includes our workforce development, rental assistance, it includes mortgage assistance, and business development. And of course, we are the owners of the Popup Makeke, some recent e-commerce hub that's supporting hundreds of businesses. But that's in short, a little bit about our organization. Thanks for having me. Well, that's a huge portfolio. What brings CNHA into this effort to get the legislature to appropriate the $600 million for Hawaiian homes? And what is it exactly that is involved? So separate from the work that I just explained, probably the most important arm which I didn't mention is that we are an advocate. So a lot of the work that we do is to advance Hawaiians. Hence the name in our, the title in our name, Council for Native Hawaiian Advancement. So we convene at our convention policy discussions that connect to our community. We look at ways in which we can advance them through policy that includes advocating at times when there are opportunities as we have now with this DHL funding. So we work with legislators to either get rid of bad bills or introduce good ones that can help advance our people. It's something that we do as an organization. We're also a member-based organization. So we have over 400 smaller nonprofits and businesses that are under our umbrella. And we look out for their interests as an organization as well. Well, it's fantastic. So what is it that, it's HB2511 and SB33359, I think. What is it that that piece of legislation is supposed to do? So we know there's 28,000 Native Hawaiians that are currently on the wait list. They have waited generations. There have been hundreds that have passed away without realizing an opportunity to own a piece of property. This is something that was afforded to Native Hawaiians and it's not something that we're going to be able to do. It's something that was afforded to Native Hawaiians back in 1921 to the Hawaiian Homes Commission Act. And when the state became a state, they made a promise. The promise was that they would administer this act and provide opportunities for those that qualify the beneficiaries of the Hawaiian Homes Commission Act. So fast forward to where we are today, Gov. There are only just over 9,000 families that have received an award and there are 28,000 that are waiting. And so this bill is historic in nature. It's a one-time flush of up to $600 million to help address the wait list. This is an unfulfilled promise. This is something they said they would do and they just haven't done it. The last time anything came close to this is when you were the governor and Governor Ige was the head of the Hawaiian Affairs Committee. There was a bill introduced that provided the department some sums of money to develop out the homes for Hawaiians. Now, fast forward to where we are today the debt money has expired and there needs to be revisiting of how they can fulfill this promise that they haven't made. And so this specific bills would look at creative ways because you're not gonna knock down a 20,000 person list by not being creative and not being aggressive. So I give the state a lot of credit especially the leadership in the house. You know, if it wasn't for their desire they could have put this money towards anything because the state has a surplus this year because of forecast. They could have put it towards a number of things and there are a lot of needs in our state but they put it towards addressing this unfulfilled promise and it calls for some creative approaches. One being expediting some of the current development projects potentially getting more in the pipeline. It also, there's a part of the bill that would call for Hawaiians being able to purchase a home outside of the homestead which is a- Tell us a little bit about that. How would you do that? Because normally the idea of the Hawaiian home program is that there is, there were supposed to be some land that would be given to the person and upon which, you know, home would be built or homestead would be had. Yeah, so the- DHL, they have just over 200,000 acres in their inventory. The vast majority of that land is not developed and some of it is just land you don't want to develop. It's like the summit of Mauna Kea, like some wasteland in the Kua Hives. You know, so some of this land just is never going to get developed. Actually, I would say the majority of their land is never going to get developed just because it's rubbish and that's kind of what happened, you know. So we need to look at creative ways to supplement the situation they're in. So what this down payment assistance program calls for is families to go on the market and buy a house of their choosing. There's benefits to this though. So they could go out and look for a house that fits the size of their home rather than some predetermined house size that DHL develops, these turnkey options. They can go buy a house of their choosing and they'll get up to $100,000 to help offset the cost, the down payment. There's other benefits like equity. I live on the homestead. I received an award 12 years ago. Well, so you're a homesteader. So you understand the program at least the operational side. I understand it intimately. And you know, one of the biggest disadvantages is that I can't take equity or borrow money from my house to go and leverage it to build new opportunities or seek new opportunities. You can't leverage it. It's just, it's a leased land and there's no mechanism to allow you to borrow equity. No bank is going to lend you money if you don't own the land. Whereas if you buy something on the market you can use the equity to send your kids to college, to rehabilitate your house or extend your house if your family size grows or fix it up. I mean, so there's more options for these families outside of the homestead than they are. And you know, I made this point when I was testifying the other day at the legislature not all Hawaiians want to live in the homestead either. You know, they get fireworks all year round they get golf carts and bikes running up and down the street. So homestead is not for everyone if I'm being honest. Not for the weak hearted you're saying, right? I don't, I'm just kidding. But I'll say this, I'll say this. I'm kind of homesteader but sorry. But I'll say this, if it weren't for the award that I received 12 years ago I wouldn't be where I am today. You know, it's provided me stability it's provided me hope. It's allowed me to grow and I always have a place to sleep at night. It gave me life and that's what this bill would be affording is thousands of families having a chance at life. And that's why it's so important. That's why I, that's why CNHA that's why I am so passionate about this bill during this time is I want to give these families a shot at life. Well, let me ask you a question though because I'm interested in this and I for one, it's never accepted the idea that a bank couldn't lend money on lease land since we did it in Hawaii for at least 50 or 75 years before the leasehold conversion law most or a high percentage of homes in Hawaii were released. And I've had this conversation with some bankers and what disappears is a lot of it just happens to be kind of a prejudice against doing that. Against, you know, like who are we gonna sell it to kind of thing? Well, you've got 28,000 people on the waiting list you can go down the list. All of those people are eligible, I mean, how many? So that issue someday needs to be resolved but this issue has to do with initial home ownership as I understand it. Now, how, where is it in the legislature? I mean, this sounds like a great bill with a noble purpose but as you and I both though even a couple of weeks, a lot of things in a period like a couple of weeks there's a lot of mischief that can happen at the legislature. You know, the bills are moving pretty nicely through the both chambers, the Senate and the house. So they've already passed both houses. It's now each of the bills is crossed over to the other side to see- Really? Oh, so they both passed? They both have passed out of each of the houses. Both titles have passed? Or I mean, the house bill went over to the Senate this sounds maybe for the business might sound a little bit technical but the point being that when that happens that's not a usual situation. It's an extremely positive sign and what it means is that the Senate has agreed and the house have agreed conceptually. Now they have to get to the meat of the bill and what it calls for. And, you know, they're not too far apart from one another which is another good sign. You know, there's conversations about what specifically is gonna get funded through this mechanism. Like what is it? Is it this down payment assistance? Is it expediting bills? You know, so those types of conversations are happening now but the bottom line it has passed out of both houses unanimously. Nobody has opposed it. It's pretty historic in that, you know both houses have agreed that this is necessary. Okay, we're gonna take a short break right now and we'll be back in a minute. I know you just said that both houses have both houses have passed the bill but is there, when we come back I wanna talk a little bit about whether or not there was any opposition. On April 1st, at 10 a.m. Hawaii time Think Tech will be presenting a 90 minute webinar panel program called Burning Global Issues. This will be an examination of six continents by thought and community leaders living in or expert in those continents discussing burning issues affecting each of them, how they relate to the prospects for functioning democracy and what we can learn from all of that. The moderator for the program is Pamela Spratland a 30 year foreign service veteran who has served as U.S. ambassador and consular official in a number of overseas posts. The panel is comprised of Carl Baker, senior advisor of Pacific Forum on China and Asia. Rupmati Khandekar, director of Global Relations Forum on India. Elsa Jharkhadyan, a consultant with Project Expedite Justice on the Middle East. Hilbert Nua Ghira, an economist in Kampala Uganda on East Africa. Carl Ackerman of the Social Studies faculty at Punahou School on Eastern Europe. And Juan Telo, a business attorney in Bogota, Colombia on Latin America. The program is sponsored by Project Expedite Justice. We hope you will attend and that this program will help you better understand these important global issues. Please go to our website, thinktechhawaii.com and register. Mahalo. Welcome back to Dark Story with John Wahey and our special guest, Cuhio Lewis, who is the CEO of the Council for Native Hawaiian Advancement, CNHA. All right, welcome back, all of you, and here we are, Cuhio. So you were just saying about how the bills have actually passed boat houses, boat chambers of the legislature in a unanimous way, which is a very rare occurrence for a bill of this magnitude. That's what I wanna get. I mean, there are a lot of, you know, like a resolution or something where that might happen. But for this $600 million potential to a program, and so has there been any opposition? I know it passed unanimous in the legislators, but has there been any kind of opposition from the community at large or anywhere, anywhere actually? You know, the bill has actually navigated through the process, not just the legislative process, but the community process pretty well. There are some voices that are, you know, essentially saying that there's needs across the board, not just in one specific community, you know, there's, but for the most part, there has been very little pushback. I think overall, there's an understanding that this is an unfulfilled obligation of the state and that by helping this community, they help the state as a whole. And I think that's important to emphasize is, you know, supporting this specific beneficiary base is means, you know, uplifting across the board, not just for Hawaiians, but for Hawaiians. Yeah, that's what I was gonna ask you is, you know, it would seem to me that if the house is gonna get serious about the provision of affordable housing on a broader base than the current efforts seem to be, that this would be an integral part of that kind of a strategy. I mean, the idea of increasing Hawaiians. Absolutely, because if you look at what the department provide, it could provide affordable housing to thousands of people that are also in line for affordable housing outside of the homestead. So the Department of Hawaiian Homeland is the largest affordable developer in the state of Hawai'i. They are by far the largest. So if they can help tackle some of the challenges that specifically face a demographic within our community, that's potentially opportunity for other ethnic groups to receive resources that are available through other programs, HF, HHFDC or wherever. You know, so it addresses a specific beneficiary base and it takes burden off what allows for opportunities for the other groups. That said, they also have special provisions and abilities under the federal government that could leverage. So the more that the state supports this program, the more opportunities could come by way of the Fed as well. So there's benefits to supporting the department. They could leverage it and get opportunities with the Fed that they couldn't otherwise get. So what is the target date when this may finally get the result? Well, as I shared earlier, this really is a matter of what is going to be the final language in the bill. This is not conceptually whether this is a good idea or not. This is about what specifically do we wanna fund as a state? And that's where the conversations need to materialize. And that's where the house and the Senate leadership have to talk story. And that's what's happening right now. The bill is in, they're close. They're not far. I would say the Senate version of the house vision, they're not far from one another. It's just, they have to put everything on paper and pen. So put pen on paper at this point. And also it seemed to me like there's a pretty large chunk of money. So they probably have to pass it when the, probably with the budget as I'm sitting here thinking about. Well, because of the specificity of the bill and what it's calling for, it's likely going to be a bill, but it'll get put in the budget down the road. But it, cause it calls for those special provisions, certain projects to get funded, certain provisions. So they got to flush it out. This is, but I'm just excited that our legislative branch have, you know. Who, you know, if you don't mind me asking, and cause I think that with this kind of monumental legislation, we need to sort of acknowledge some of the people who's managing the bill in the halls of the Senate. I mean, who are the advocates for it? That's a very... I'm assuming everybody's generally supported, but there must be some people, somebody. It's a good question, God, because oftentimes the people that are the driving force don't always get recognized. So... Exactly. This Sylvia Luke is, and Speaker Psyche are the ones that first introduced this bill. It was their idea. It was bold. And so Sylvia has helped, it has been championing this thing. And so she's silent, but she's driving. And I'm happy for that. And on the Senate side, you have Donovan and Senate President Kochi, who's equally supportive. So again, is there just a matter of the two halls? You got the two, what we would call the four cardinals, I guess, if this was the church. But these are the guys who... I mean, that's amazing. I mean, it's amazing because normally, this is not the kind of bill. Normally it's the subject matter committee, not the finance chair in the house, and the ways that the chair in the Senate, combining with leadership to push through a remedy. So I guess this is exciting. Now, you're an agency that gets a lot of your resources from the federal government. You're not normally, in fact, I don't know of any funds that you may be getting directly from the state, but as a person, as a leader of an agency that depends, that knows the federal procurement system, do you think that such a contribution would allow us to actually go after more federal dollars? I mean, how does this all fit together? Well, I think absolutely. If the state's investing, then one could say, well, where's the Fed? After all, this is the Hawaiian Homes Commission Act passed by the United States Congress. So, they've already started to see this year, Senator Schott secured over $20 million to over $20 million to support DHL this year. So that's historic level funding that we haven't seen recently. So, there's opportunities to go to the Fed and say, hey, here's some actual projects, the state's throwing down this, would you mind throwing in additional resources so we can complete these jobs? The Department of Interior oversees the Department of Hawaiian Homelands. And I believe, through partnerships, the department can't do it on their own, which is partly why we're there. That's why we're advocating. We can go together or work together in tandem to say. When you say department, you mean Department of Hawaiian Homelands, right? That's the Department of Hawaiian. I think you might be talking about the Department of Interior. And you know, I want to point out, as it relates to this bill, so in 1923 is when the first 13 Hawaiian Homes state awards were given out in Kalamaula on Molokai, 13. Right. So we're coming up, we're just one year away from the 100 years from that first award. You know, so it's historic in that this bill is on the heels of that, of that reunion. But just for some reason. I tell you what, when I hear about the waiting list, which as you point out, there's about $28,000 applicants. What I think about it, well, the first thing is that, you know, is that that's a terrible statistic. I mean, you wish you could end it on one hand. On the other hand, it's amazing, given the history of the Hawaiian Homes Act, that today you would have 28,000 people who could qualify for a lot. I mean, the act was actually passed and people are interested in studying some of the history of it. So I think that's at the time when most of the predictions were that the native Hawaiians, those people who would qualify for the homesteads would be actually extinct. I mean, and here we are. So the good news is, you know, there are more people now than ever that qualify. The bad news is the program hasn't lived up to its potential. Now, why, why, what are some of the reasons? There's varying reasons. You know, first of all, 15% of DHL's portfolio or their land assets is conservation land. So this is land that you basically just got to conserve because you can't build on it. Maybe like watershed areas. Reservation areas. Yep, absolutely. So that's like 15% of the 200,000 acres. You can't do anything even if you wanted to. There's another 15% that's classified as like special districts so you can't do anything there either. So that's 30% of your portfolio that is really undevelopable lands in the foreseeable future. And so only of the 203,000 acres that DHL has in their inventory, only 5% currently have residential houses on them. 8.5% is agriculture and about 20% is pastoral lands. So, you know, to answer the question, get to the question, the answer, not all their lands can be developed and those lands that can be developed need investment. And that costs us a lot of money to bring in the sewer lines, bring in the roads, bring in the, you know, the put draw lines to each of the infrastructure. All the infrastructure costs money. The department doesn't have money. Another reason is the department has been building houses for beneficiaries and to build a house in Hawaii is not cheap. Even though Hawaiian homes cost less than you would find in the market, our Hawaiians still have trouble affording them. So what they're buying is they're buying the house, they're not buying the land, they're just buying the house. So the cost is a lot less, but even if a house is $350,000, $400,000, families are struggling to even afford that. So that's another reason why you can get through the list. So quickly when you offer houses is because nobody's accepting them because they don't qualify for the mortgage that comes with them. So there's, it's a multifaceted answer, but it comes down to money and the social status of our community, those that are on the list. Well, it's great that you, that your agency has decided to get behind all of this. Do you do any housing programs at any kind of housing support or programs at CNHA? We do, so we do a limited amount. I mean, we don't have a huge portfolio, but we have like a rent, we bought an apartment building recently where we're providing housing so that families can prepare themselves for home ownership. We also have been reconstructing. So a lot of these homes that have been built on Hawaiian homestead are falling apart. And so they need to be fixed. So we lend money as a lending institution, we lend money to families that can't get access to a loan through a traditional bank. So that's another way in which we're helping. And we are co-developing, we're working on co-developing with other developers specifically to help the communities in which we serve. Well, that's terrific. Now, just to bring this to kind of a close, are you, what is, have you discussed this at all with the administration? I know we're talking about the legislature. Normally something like this would have been proposed by the agency. In this case, it was a legislative initiative, which by the way is a major change. So having said that, is the executive branch behind all of this? I mean, do you have the same kind of unanimity coming from the administration as well as the legislature? You know, it's funny you asked, because I actually had the privilege of meeting with Governor Ege this morning. And I met and I asked him primarily about his thoughts on this bill because I wanted to know where he was on the issue. And I wanted to know that, you know, whether there was any roadblocks that should be prepared for. And it's the kind of proactive thing you need to do. If you want major legislation to go through and you want to clear the road. So I talked to the governor and you know, I'll say this on record, he has, he is extremely supportive of native wines. He understands the critical nature of this bill and what it could do for families that are on that waitlist. He is top of mind wanting to make sure that he does his part to uplift and fulfill this unfulfilled promise. And he's thinking long-term too. He's not just thinking short-term, he's thinking about how do we get it so that it's not a one-time flush, but there's ongoing support for the department. And he has shown that in recent years, he's given the department more and more money to do the work they need to do. Well, that's terrific. You know, I wish we had some time to just talk about a whole range of other issues. But since I have you here, but unfortunately we are at the end of our show. Cuyo, I want to thank you so much for being our guest this afternoon. And good luck. I think Hawaii needs legislation like this not only to help native Hawaiians, but to just boost the affordability of housing in our state. So I wish you the best of luck. And I hope people, you know, get on board and help this effort happen. So thank you. And I look forward to. And thank you too. For all your work these years and continuing to lift up voices. Well, yeah, well, hopefully people will watch this and we'll have more support for the bill. So again, House Bill 2511, Senate Bill 3359. Keep your eyes out, folks. Need all the help we can get. Aloha. Thank you so much for watching Think Tech Hawaii. If you like what we do, please like us and click the subscribe button on YouTube and the follow button on Vimeo. You can also follow us on Facebook, Instagram, Twitter and LinkedIn and donate to us at think.kawaii.com. Mahalo.