 at night when I close my eyes I can see Christy reaching her hand out to me while I'm driving and the blood just keep coming out of her mouth and that maybe it'll fade too with time but I don't think so that haunts me the most. I'm Mark Bowden, expert in human behavior and body language, help people all over the world to stand out, win trust, gain credibility including leaders of the G7 chase. Hey, I'm Chase Hughes, did 20 years in the U.S. military, wrote the number one best-selling book on behavior profiling, influence and persuasion and I train people in those things today. Greg? Greg Hartley, former Army interrogator, interrogation instructor, resistance to interrogation instructor, written 10 books on body language and behavior and I spend most of my time on Wall Street in corporate America. All right, today we're going to talk about Diane Downs and she's the person who was put in prison for shooting her children and denying it. Greg, why don't you tell us about the videos we're going to see? Yes, we're going to see four videos I believe and the first two are from immediately after this happened. She shot three of her children, one died, one was paralyzed and one had a stroke, two survived and were later adopted by the prosecutor in this case and we're going to see that initial video, a video a few weeks later, then there's a video of her in prison years later and finally her parole hearing in 2010. That's it. There are more than four videos, those are just where these groups of videos come from. Yeah, the clips came from those four videos. Yep. Yeah. All right, here we go. We were just out, I guess sightseeing I guess you'd say and the kids got tired, they fell asleep in the car so I decided just head on home but I saw a road I hadn't been on before. We like to take back roads and just went down that road and there was a guy standing in the road, flagging me down so I stopped. Everything was done in a matter of five or 10 seconds. He swung himself around and fired twice. One caught him in the arm, the other one went off somewhere. Danny cried the whole way. I could hear him softly just moaning and Christy was dying. God, all the blood, all the pain. All right, Chase, what do you got? So let's talk about some of the words that she uses here. It's just going through her story. It's I guess, I guess and just so, but just and and so. And I'm not even going to talk about that. I know that Scott's got some great stuff to talk about how people speak about that and we didn't even talk about this beforehand. But she's using interjections to explain the actions, which means she's explaining the behavior and the purpose of her behavior. Truthful people almost never do that. And it's interesting that when she's telling the created story, she says flagging me down and she uses herself instead of the word we. When she's talking about we like to go on these back roads, she switches back because that's probably a truthful statement. Throughout the whole thing, there's no emotion on her face whatsoever. And there's a giant flag here. When somebody is discussing something emotional and they want you to feel it too. If the face is not participating in that story, that should be a huge red flag. So I want you to just close your eyes when this video plays again in just a second. And I think you'll agree that it sounds like a really bad narrator trying to audition to read an audiobook. And that's what I heard this morning. I like to listen to them first and then watch them on mute and then kind of bring them together. But that's all I got for this one. Scott, what do you think? All right, this is one of my favorite subjects, psychopaths. So what I'm going to do today instead of going through and knocking out the specific body language in every move, I'm going to tell you about, everybody remember Jeff Foxworthy, the guys, you might be a redneck if that thing. I'm going to sort of go down a list. So if you have some of these, you may be a psychopath if. So for example, she's showing what's called shallow affect with her emotions. It's their reduced emotional responses where she's talking about should have a lot of emotion come with it. A lot of everything from fear to terror to sadness, all these things should be happening, but we don't see any of that at all. And it sounds like she's talking like a robot sounds like she's got a moon accent. I am from the moon. I did this. It just sounds odd. She doesn't show any emotions whatsoever. And the hint of emotions that we see are faked or as she says later on feigned when she's talking about something else. So number one is not number one, but in the list so far we've got shallow effect. Then we have callus and lack of empathy. In other words, so she has no feelings. Not you can feel sympathy for someone say, oh, I feel bad about that, but you can't as a psychopath, can't put yourself in that person's place and say, oh, that hurts the finger because of this. I know how that feels. They can't do that and say that's horrible because it feels this way. They can just say, well, they can't do that. It does their brain doesn't work that way. I've got a long list. Then we have lack of remorse or guilt. Don't see that either. She doesn't show any remorse for doing that shows no guilt for doing that, feeling horrible about it. And she has what's called a grandiose sense of self, which is everything is great. She's the best person in the world. She's brilliant. She's pretty. She's good at everything she does. And we're going to see that thread run throughout all these videos as we go through here. Now out of the 20 items that are on the hair, what's called the hair, psychopathy checklist and Robert Harris, Dr. Robert Harris, the guy who came up with this checklist. So if you go down the checklist, oh yeah, they wrote this book without conscience. And so if you go down this checklist, you can, you ask, there's a way to do it where you're talking with someone who you suspect of being a psychopath and you ask them questions that deal with these specific items on this list. And you have to ask them a certain way to get them to answer truthfully. You can't say one of them is being glib and Greg and I always joke about asking somebody that because I always go, are you glib? You can't, you can't say it like that. You have to ask questions so you can see how they answer them. And we're going to show you all these in here as we go through. So that's out of the 20 we saw four in here. We saw a shallow effect, the callousness and lack of empathy, lack of remorse and grandiose sense of self. Greg, what do you got? Yeah, I'm going to start off by saying we can call lots of people, lots of people, psychopaths, but she's on page four between Ramirez and Bundy. So there you go, she is, we don't have to guess. And we can work on the mechanics from there. The thing you notice in the beginning, there's a show in the 1960s called Dragnet, and the guy would always say, just the facts, ma'am. That's all you're hearing, just the facts. They're not real facts, but they're just the facts. She's telling a story with all the passion of telling you about ironing her socks. There's just nothing to it. She walks through it. It's mechanical. If you listen to pitch toning cadence, if I was telling you about a child, one of my children being harmed, my pitch would be rising because my voice is rising because I would feel that pain. Typically, the tone may be more driving and telling you something. She's flat, shallow affect. There's no affect to her. And her cadence is monotonous. It's just boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom. She's doing that romance or thing. She's staring you right in the eyes the whole time she's telling it because she's looking to see what's going on and to make sure that you are paying attention. There's a one shoulder up when she says, we, I guess. And when she raised that shoulder at one at, I guess, and then she goes, I guess you would say that's a pause for her to think. And then she does this God, all the blood. There is no emphasis on that. She talks about a bushy-haired man. And then finally, the last two things, her brow raises at I stopped and her brow raises at and one bullet went this way and one bullet went the other way. The only times I see any kind of request for approval or any kind of connection, I think she just doesn't know what's normal human behavior. That's what I see here. Mark, what do you got? Yeah. So never seen her before, fresh to it, only heard afterwards what she was up to. So I come fresh to this and I hear immediately a story that if it were my story, I would expect to have feelings of fear or anger or confusion or surprise. There's nothing there for me to say if I was part of that narrative, I might have some fear, there may be some anger, there may be some confusion, there may be some surprise. I don't see any of those emotions on her. I don't see any of them stated, she doesn't verbally state them. But there's enough in there that I would expect many human beings, including myself to experience some of that. So that's kind of interesting. Just as been said, not only is it read like a poor narrator, I think the reason we go, that's like really poor narration, is it's written like a melodramatic novel. And so we tend to go, well, that's a really bad reading of what could be super melodramatic and quite emotional. So again, we go, where's the emotion in the voice, where's the emotion that fits with all the blood, all the pain, that's a great piece of writing, all the blood, all the pain. We would expect a huge amount of emotion to be wrapped around that we don't see it. So of course, you know, I instantly go, well, this looks like it's, it's somewhere on an antisocial behavioral disorder spectrum. However, what I have to do is go, well, I'm not in the room with this person right now, they're not threatening me in any way. I don't know the whole story. So I'm going to suspend my judgment about this. Now, you and I, we all know now what she's done. But what I want you to pay attention to is just because you hear and see these things in actual life out there, doesn't mean you've got somebody with an antisocial behavioral disorder. Okay, the two things don't fit. We're pretty lucky here because it's like, okay, guns, I mean, all the other things of an antisocial behavioral disorder come out. Yeah, risky, risky stuff. Okay, so, so it all converges in the right way. But you have to be careful for yourself that if you come across somebody who talks in this way, who affects or doesn't affect in this way, so long as you can look around you and go, yeah, I see where the exits are, there's other people around me, I've got plenty of resource around me. I'll be like, let's talk some more. Let's let's suspend judgment, lean in, talk some more, see what actually might be happening here. So yeah, absolutely. First sniff of this, I go, antisocial behavioral disorder, absolutely. But because I'm not in the same room as her right now, I go, let's have a look. Let's see what else is going on. There, that's what I got for you. We were just out, I guess sightseeing, I guess you'd say. And the kids got tired, they fell asleep in the car. So I decided just head on home. But I saw a road I hadn't been on before. We like to take back roads and just went down that road. And there was a guy standing in the road, flagging me down. So I stopped. Everything was done in a matter of five or 10 seconds. He swung himself around and fired twice. One caught him in the arm, the other one went off somewhere. Danny cried the whole way. I could hear him softly just moaning and Christy was dying. God, all the blood, all the pain. Awesome. If I had shot my own children, would I not have done a good job of it? Why would I have taken my kids to the hospital? Wouldn't I have made sure they were dead and then cried crocodile tears? That's insane to think that I would do such a thing and then bring the witnesses in against myself. That's crazy. All right, Greg, what do you got? I love this one. If you want to talk about an embedded confession, this is a dumb person embedded confession. She's saying, look, I would have thought this out and I would not have made it look like something dumb. That's evidence that it's real. How does that possibly even cross your mind when you're sitting up and thinking this? This just proves they're not all smart. They're not all super geniuses. She's not. She's dumb and she's a psychopath. We got that. Both of those things figured out now. There's anger at the one point she's challenged. If you look at her challenged, she sets her jaw, her lower teeth are exposed. She narrows her mouth into a pursing move. She makes hard eye contact and her voice changes to terse and her tone changes and her cadence changes. She's telling and here's the one interesting thing. And I always say there's a Swansea and I forget the other university out of Wales that's done a study that says that psychopaths pupils don't dilate to negative emotions. Ding, ding, ding. Look at this. No movement whatsoever. So there's another, another instance we're looking for. She starts illustrating with her brow and brow beating with her forehead to make the point. And then she does this kind of throwaway word or Scott, as you would call it, fading facts at crazy. Well, because she doesn't like that word. There are a couple of others. She's more animated when she's angry than she is telling you a story about her children being killed. There's something wrong with this right out the gate. Chase, forget. So we have more audio book narration. There's this speaking as if she's reading like an IKEA furniture assembly instruction guide. And I think it's important here to know that she's mentioning insane and crazy in the same little sentence, which could be a hint at her subconscious thinking about what a defense strategy might be or what a future defense might be for her. And there's an eye flutter, which means her eyes are blinking rapidly, both at the moment she says insane. And at the moment she says crazy, which is a huge red flag. But overall throughout this whole video, there's a lack of denial. And keep in mind, one of the famous things that I like to talk about is the vanishing perpetrator. And it's all here. This is defense versus providing information. And that's one of the biggest things that you can ever look at talking to anybody. Is there a defense or are they providing information? It's a huge difference and anybody can hear that. But I think it's interesting. There's a chin tuck. A chin goes down at the moment she's saying that's crazy. And we tuck our chins down out of a protective or a fearful response. But she's planting all of these questions and trying to use those to kind of change your mind. This is sometimes effective in other scenarios. And because in all persuasion and influence, this includes interrogation, this includes doing a TV interview with a psychopath, your primary resource is focus. Above all else, capturing the ability to capture someone's focus is number one. And focus is driven by questions. Questions are the steering wheel for focus. And I think that she's somehow unconsciously absorbed this over her lifetime. And she's using this questioning thing to drive what you're focusing on. Why didn't all of these things happen? And why didn't this add up? Questions drive focus. That's all I got, Mark. What do you think? Yeah. So emphatic non-contractions going on there. That's when the words don't get shorter. They're full length and actually maybe even elongated. So they become very emphatic. So that for me and anybody who like me grew up as a kid in the 70s, it sounds like Texas instruments speak and spell. I don't know whether anybody else remembers that. But I used to love that thing because I was particularly bad at spelling. And I thought that's amazing. That thing can spell, you know, and it would go spell regulator, R, E, G. You know, had a fantastic way of getting itself around these words. So it reminds me of Texas Instruments Speak and Spell. So it's quite, I guess, mechanical. And again, that puts us off because it feels very inhumane. It feels very unhuman. That's going to make a stand away from her and go, I don't like this. Now, in this case, we have every right to. But again, if somebody speaks like this, it doesn't necessarily mean that they're psychopathic. There could be a whole bunch of reasons why they don't contract. And they're quite emphatic about some elements of it. Now, there is a sense there of indignation. You see that she lowers her head with anger. So look, this idea that might be propagated that anybody with antisocial behavioral disorder or psychopathy doesn't feel emotions. Yeah, they can absolutely feel emotions to some extent. Okay, they just don't feel them when we would expect them to feel them. That's why they're antisocial in order to be part of society. You need to feel remorse at certain times. You need to feel anger at certain times. You need to feel sorrow or happiness at certain times. These may be limited or just in the wrong place to exist within society. So they become outsiders of that society, antisocial, not part of the social network. So I think we do see anger in her. And that's that's an emotion the head lowers for anger. And it's indignation. I've been I'm being wrongly found out or accused here. Last thing, single shoulder shrug on bring the witnesses against myself. So I don't think she believes that she ever bought witnesses against herself. My guess is, though I don't know, they showed up anyway without that. This is an element of being grandiose, which is to say that you can take the things that should be against you and say, actually, I caused that thing to happen. I caused the witnesses to show up. That's my good. I can choose. I can choose my pain. I can choose what happens to me. So elements of grandiosity there. She's in charge of her own trial, which obviously she wouldn't be in charge of at all. Scott, what do you got? All right. Well, I'm going to go through three more from the from the hair psychopathy checklist. And so you'll have an idea of how many are on there and how to go about checking or talking to someone. I'll put a link below to somewhere you can go find out about that. And there'll be some books and stuff there as well. Some links to books. Now, first thing we see again is that shallow affect. There's no emotion there. No emotion at all. Not only because she can't do it, she doesn't know how to do it. And we're going to see later on where she's got confusion between emotions. She's showing one emotion when she should be showing another one. So that's number one is the shallow effect. The second we see again is the grandiose sense of self, whereas she says, wouldn't I have done this right when I've done it the right way? She's assuming we think she's brilliant. And she's because obviously she thinks she's pretty smart because she knows she would have done it the right way. Well, obviously she wouldn't because she didn't. So she didn't think that out. And Robert Harris says, a psychopath is a cunning, usually intelligent intra-species predator. And in this case, we're seeing that, but she's not intelligent. This isn't a very smart person at all. And we're going to see that get worse as this goes along. Another one is the pathological lying that we're seeing. And she just keeps going and going and going. And she adds things on as you'll see as we go along to this story as well. There's things she didn't tell in the first part of the story or when she first got in trouble that she tells later on when she's in prison and trying to get paroled and telling what the story was, things like that. So she's adding these things to that. In the first video, we saw her, we heard her say, I six times. This goes back to that to be, it's all about her. Everything's about her. It's I, me, nothing about her children. And we went when her children mentioned very small, nothing emotional toward that. And in this case, we're here to say I five times. That's a lot of that's a lot about her. That's all about her. And when you hear someone talking like that, that you run into at a bar, then you feel like you've just met this person who is a kindred spirit with you. And you say, Oh, this is wonderful. You get along with them. Great. And they say, you know what, man, you're awesome. I think you're great. I like what you do. I like you. And I think you're fantastic. And it goes on and keep building you up and you feel great about that. Well, after you leave there, you'll have this weird feeling like, why don't I feel completely awesome about that? There's something not right here. That's when you go, wait a minute, something's up. When you leave a person that does that and you feel fine and everything's great. That's one thing. But when you go back home and you're sitting there or you're in your car driving back or you're sitting at home and you're laying in the bed thinking about, you think, well, that was fun, but that still makes me feel a little bit, bit odd because your brain is seeing things, which I've gone through a thousand times that you're not really picking up yet. And that weird gut feeling you're getting is going to, it's going to come to you later on in the shower when you're driving. I mean, I don't, there's something not right about that person. That's what it's going to hit you. So listen to that little feeling. If you're, if to be safe, if you meet somebody that seems perfect, but it seems too perfect, probably is. So be careful with that. Not all people are like that. Not all people are going to be nice to you and say these wonderful things. A lot of them may mean it, but when you leave there and you have that odd feeling, something's just not right. Remember, something's just not right. So that's three more from the list. They're all, but the pathological lying are from what we covered before. So we're getting, we're getting a pretty good read on her so far from a psychological perspective from the hair psychopathy checklist. All right, good. Hey, Mark, one ad to what you said. Hair said that they are capable of sudden burst, shallow and dramatic of emotion, but they are not long lasting and there's no depth. So yep. Yeah. Same thing with histrionic. Yeah. You know, so that's, that's the odd part of it. We're seeing sort of a combo in a couple of places. If I had shot my own children, would I not have done a good job of it? Why would I have taken my kids to the hospital? Wouldn't I have made sure they were dead and then cried crocodile tears? That's insane to think that I would do such a thing and then bring the witnesses in against myself. That's crazy. Shot my daughter. My first reaction was to snap back to my childhood, to the pain that had happened to me back then, my marriage, my entrapment by society. This man was bigger than me. He was stronger than me. He had more power because he had a gun and I stood there and I looked at Christie reaching and the blood that just kept gushing out of her mouth and what do you do? All right, Mark, what do you got? Yes, snap back and we'll hear that later on. And if that last comment that you were making, Greg, goes in about suddenly being able to peek on emotions, I think that's what we're talking about in this snapback. There is a trigger for her where she will... Hang on a second, you guys. Chase, meet your microphone a second. Let's see if that's what's doing this. Okay, start talking again for a second. One, two, three, four, five, six, seven, eight, nine, ten. That's what it is. That's what it is. So, okay, sorry. Just a second. I could come back. All right, Mark, what do you got? Yes, snap back and we'll hear that later on. And Greg, to your point, around for somebody with antisocial behavioural disorder or psychopathy, then here maybe says that there are moments where there will be heightened emotions for very short amounts of time. I think that's what she's talking about when she talks about snapback where there's a trigger, she loses control and there might well be some kind of psychotic episode of some sort. Now, what else leads me to that? Well, she targets her eyes. You see those narrow when she's talking about her own pain. We see more anger as well. She talks about childhood, marriage, society, entrapment. Certainly entrapment and society and marriage. We're now talking about a paranoia. Paranoia will often show up or certainly the idea of all history, personal history and history itself being a battle of power. You see that in others that are probably in Hare's Book there around psychopathy that they have, they've noted their own history or the whole of history as an epic battle of power, a dialectic only between good and bad and the entrapment around that. So it's already pretty extreme here. She tries, I think, to do disgust on the vision of the blood and she doesn't manage it and what it does is moves into pleasure. So again, now, is she capable of being disgusted? I don't know. Is she capable of experiencing pleasure? I don't know. Maybe she can. Maybe she can't. I'm not going to discount that somebody with this mental condition is not going to be able to feel emotions but she doesn't know which one to do at that point or in fact she doesn't know which one we would like to see from her and this is why it's antisocial. Generally, when you talk about your kids and them bleeding to death, it is generally considered a bad form to smile at that point. Generally, there may be some outlier situations to this and that's why I have to say because somebody smiles when they're talking about their dead children doesn't mean they're psychopathic at all. There are some extreme emotions going on but this is just now further on the list of somebody showing us what society does not want to see at this point. Now that doesn't mean to say that there aren't situations where it would be applicable but they tend to be outliers. Chase, what do you got on this one? Yeah, I agree with you. This whole reaction to snapping back to her childhood I think is horrifying. There's no protection of the kids. There's no concern for the kids. There's no emotion. There's only thinking about herself and her suffering and I believe it's possible that this is true. There's some potentially genuine recall here with her eye movement which is what I saw. I think it's likely dissociated or regressed is what happened while she was killing the children or attempting to. I think there was a dissociative or regressive capacity there and I think she was potentially being honest about that tiny piece. There is one micro expression of actual disgust here when she says marriage, when she's talking about her marriage and if you watch this back it is beautiful. It's a great example. I've saved this clip that Greg carefully tailored for all of us to look at for my training in the future but she's redirecting the conversation back to victimhood and speaking like the audio book narrator where this is memorized and written down and I think that's actually what happened here. I think that was memorized written down. She said I stood there and looked at my daughter. I think that's true. I think she didn't have any concern for the children at all besides maybe potentially being disgusted by her daughter's blood or just being off put by having to see the blood and she finishes up with the classic I U shift and if you study linguistics at all this is called a shift of referential index or going from talking about this is my experience and you should probably agree with this too so she starts using that towards the end. Greg what do you got up there? Yeah I don't see any emotion that has any value anytime she's talking about her children. In fact the only emotion I see here at all is when she's talking about self. Her emphasis on words when she's talking about self is more powerful. I think she's self-amused. This is an embellishment of her earlier story and I think she's self-amused as she pitches out these details is why we see a little light in her face. When we first started this show I said my favorite thing in people is amusement. You see those cheekbones rise. You see the face pull back you can't miss it. She uses a couple of pretty sophisticated tools here when she does this iterative storytelling. She does a little bit of a provocative statement to try to get you to ask a question so she can give you the next piece and apparently a person doesn't bite and she just continues to roll. She's defiant and indignant when she gets to that point where she's talking about my past and then her eyes narrow at back then so there's something happened clearly we know that something happened to her back then but all the emphasis is all around her every time and Chase I saw exactly what you did there's real anger at marriage you can see if you slow this down her eyes narrow her jaw clenches and I if I were interrogating or I'd reach out and touch her and go it's okay Diane I know you're frustrated and and let her then start to spew information because that's how it would work. She breaks eye contact rare rare eye contact at break at reaching here we're just talking about her daughter reaching and Chase I usually associate downright with emotional accessing I think it's just eye blocking here I think she's just breaking eye contact just to get away to give her a second to think she has a deep swallow at blood I expect then to see disgust grief sadness sorrow nothing nothing flat affect I think she's powerless she's frustrated and I call this one soft and angry because she's talking in the front of her mouth in that soft kind of way and smiling to try to keep you engaged that's what I see Scott what you got all right I think you guys all three hit something big Chase you nailed it that lack of responsibility that's on the checklist so that's one more to add to that complete lack of responsibility Mark when it comes to pleasure they can feel pleasure they can have that that's what adrenaline does for them that's why they always live in big cities that's why they always go on these dangerous trips that's why they always do things that are on the edge they ride motorcycles that's why they like to fight because they get pleasure from that adrenaline rush that well and it's the only thing they really feel that they get something from is that adrenaline rush again we see here total lack of true emotion except in those two spots you guys have already covered and when we're seeing emotions in here when she's talking about the the blood and those things we're not seeing the correct motion because she doesn't she's confused she doesn't know what correct emotion to use there because what she's playing off is of things she's seen in movies and on television when somebody's talking but when somebody's talking to her saying oh the blood and that's horrible that's what she's doing there because she thinks that's the way someone's supposed to do is supposed to act because what a psychopath will do since they don't have any of these emotions what they'll do is they'll copy other people's emotions and we're seeing that in here and she's confused as to where these emotions go in there in the chain of events that she's talking about there and they're all wrong in most of she has none and when she does interject them except for the anger part it's in the wrong spot because she doesn't know where to put them she's confused about that she doesn't know another thing is we could be dealing also with a histrionic personality type here because she's trying to please everyone and she goes through this too that's a which we'll get into deeper later on as we go through this but one of the things that that is denotes that for me anyway that indicates that could be a possibility not sure is because she's trying to please them she's trying to say things that please and we're going to see in a couple minutes another her trying to do that as well and paranoid schizophrenia she she she has a little bit of that because this story just sounds whacked when she starts talking about things she thought and I thought this and I did this and everything's based on her Greg you nailed it everything is about her again she's got that grandiose sense of self everything is about her I me and when she does talk about something negative it's how she's the victim in this thing the callous lack of empathy that's another one there we're seeing four of them from the list on here so keep that in mind as we go through this where we're pointing out all these things but they all roll back to these points of the hair psychopathy checklist and again you can see that that's in the link below if you want to go check that out along with some books and stuff we see that smile she's talking about blood as well that's not like I was talking about earlier that comes from her seeing someone else imitating that and some people say let's duping delight now it's not duping delight she's not duping anybody there that's not what that's not the way duping delight works and in real life maybe real delight she may have gotten pleasure from that because it was an adrenaline rush so when you see that don't think it's it's duping delight a lot of people will think that but that's not what's going on there shot my daughter my first reaction was to snap back to my childhood to the pain that had happened to me back then my marriage my entrapment by society this man was bigger than me he was stronger than me he had more power because he had a gun and i stood there and i looked at christie reaching and the blood that just kept gushing out of her mouth and and what do you do the gun kept firing and firing and firing and it made was monotonous it just kept going it was like a slow motion picture when he swung around he was pointing when he swung around it hit the tips of my fingers the gun hit the tips my fingers and that snapped me and i went wait a minute i'm not trapped by society i don't care if he is bigger if i stand here and i say yeah here take the keys i mean there's nothing i can do you win because you have the gun my kids are gonna die and i'm not gonna let my kids die and so instead of giving him the keys i feigned throwing the keys all right greg what do you got yeah so in the uk they have an interrogation technique they call monotonous and monotonous as you keep asking a question till person gives it up and answers it this story is starting to sound like that to me at least she is cognizant of one thing she knows what monotonous is because all she's doing is boom boom boom boom little lilt at the end of everything she says again we got a little bit of an embed here her story is all broken if you listen to the story something is wrong here now you're starting to see it doesn't tie together and i'll give you a logic test in just a minute all the actions that have any kind of any kind of an accent on them any kind of stress on the words are all about her cognitive process now i'm going to tell you that if you have women and men write stories as a generality about something happening in an auto accident women will remember more about the how they felt but they don't usually talk about their cognitive process and then i thought on tuesday this could hurt me no they say look i felt this i felt fear i heard noise they don't go through and say inside my head i was thinking back to the time and she's got this little narrative she's doing now about i was powerless and no i wasn't powerless and all that kind of stuff is taking her further and further from having talk about shooting her children the key story here so let me give you my logic test i'll leave it at that the logic test is i've killed one of your children i've shot two others and now i've shot you in the arm one time and you pretend like you're throwing your keys away well what do you think i'm going to do about that i'm going to go look for the keys probably not that's a logic test right there a simple logic test that a normal human being would say well throwing your keys away is going to get you shot so no but she feigned throwing the keys away and if you watch the video and you go find the one with sound of her doing this she says she bumps her elbow she's laughing the whole time telling how the story went in that video and she says that hurts almost as much as when and she stops and that's what cued the police they believe that she was about to say when i shot myself scott what do you got all right i totally agree with you again we're seeing that grandiose sense of self there self there now when she's talking about this it goes into a subplot you're right greg that's what makes me go maybe we're dealing with schizophrenic here because they create this whole of the world that you've got a story then you bring this thing out and build another one up here it's just it's just insane what she's talking about um obviously but i mean that those don't that doesn't work with us in a story oops in a story form in a story structure in other words so she's getting a little bit out of line there but again she's confused at what emotions to use because she's coming on strong there at the first but it's almost too much for what she's saying and she ends right with the words is when those emotions ends and she switches to another one and turns another one on and when that sentence in she switches and turns to another one so here we're seeing five here actually we're seeing a grandiose sense of self worth uh glibness now if you watch that video where she's talking to the guy and telling him what happened with the car you can see her throw her hand out and start laughing she's laughing while she's next to the car where her children supposedly got shot by somebody else come on so that that's part of being glib you have it's not that big a dear very very superficial with with things that are supposed to be important that's why greg and always get around go are you glib you can't ask it that way but you see that and go holy smokes i can't believe that's happening um and we see that lack of remorse or guilt she doesn't feel guilty about this at all we don't see any that in there we're not seeing any any kind of structure up in in in the forehead that tells you that's in the glib that tells you she's feeling sorrow at all anything bad at all we're not seeing any of that and we're seeing the shallow affect those the emotions aren't there there's no depth to them there's not much to them it's just this fake front she's putting on so i think at this point i don't know nobody's even asking her questions that you would ask to make sure someone's a psychopath and we're seeing these like one two we're just clocking off as we go along i'm sorry i'm getting so fired up but it's it's man it's it's fantastic study here uh chase what do you got yeah totally agree with it and and let me just approach some of these from a different angle cover some of the stuff uh maybe that i had you get a lot of the stuff that i had the gun kept firing that's where this starts out the gun kept firing guns don't fire humans fire guns so this is another instance of a vanishing perpetrator the there's no any person in the world just about would be talking about the person who's committing the act not the weapon they were holding this is similar to somebody saying the knife kept stabbing it's equally stupid so we have vanishing perpetrator there's repetition but here's the problem with repetition innocent people can repeat stuff but innocent people here's what they're going to do they're going to change their pitch or their tone on those repetitions and it doesn't change here so i would say this is extremely likely deception if i'm in that room and i don't know much about this case other from other than seeing it this morning in our little drop box folder and then like saying holy crap i got to go look at this on wikipedia that's about all i know so my first impression here when she says her the gun brush that it ends of her fingers is this is a way to inject a detail to explain fingerprints on a weapon or that they might find dna on a weapon uh there may be some something else there but this is this whole thing like just scott like you were just saying this is a performance that you would see at an elementary school play with this like an elementary school kids put a play together and always there's always this sudden realization moment in the play like something happens and then boom the the person has a brand new view of the world because of some small thing that happens it's exactly what we're seeing when she's saying you win because you have the gun her sclera is visible which is the white part of the eye above the iris the little coloring part so what we're seeing here is selling a message and she's not communicating anything that she's experienced she's lacking any of this matching emotion on her face there's no sadness there's no fear no surprise or even shame at not being able to protect the kids and i won't speak for every woman on earth but i know my mom i know a lot of moms and every woman that i've ever met in my life would be hyper focused on not being able to protect those kids and those babies and that never comes into it there's no shame whatsoever there so i'll finish with a a pro tip if we can i'm just going to keep hammering that phrase even though i hate it a key point for all behavior profiling is asking yourself the question what is being concealed in this sentence not what are they lying about what subject or what insecurity or what thought is being concealed right here it's the murder it's the injury of the kids there's all kinds of stuff being concealed throughout this whole thing so keep that just in the background of your mind as we're going through this what's being concealed as we move forward and we'll do a few more of these as we go forward and one big one that i think is way out of left field but i'm going to go ahead and say it it's an idea i had this morning that's coming up in i think two more clips mark what do you think yeah oh dear there's not a lot going for her and i don't think i can improve things for her very much so i can only there's just there's just nothing going right for her here um it's full of structure and and full of actually quite good rhetorical structure so that's a bit of a problem because it it sounds like rather than telling the story she's constructing the story so we get firing and firing and firing that's a beautiful piece of rule of three simple rule of three rhetoric um so already uh quite romantic because it has an aesthetic to it most stories don't have that kind of level of aesthetic to them uh chase um you know the gun was firing and firing and firing and and you know what it kept going apparently i don't know what happened to the person firing that gun but it the gun just kept on going so even more to your point there of there is no perpetrator on the other end of this gun it seems to rule itself right now monotonous like a slow motion picture so we've got a simile there very descriptive and again super romantic the slow motion element is where you really you know even in quite a violent film the slow motion element is where you romanticize the the violence so that the audience can actually engage with it and watch it and actually enjoy it remember films are for enjoyment and films are full of violence and people getting shot and so you have to create an aesthetic around it so people can enjoy it and get into it so she makes it a slow motion movie for us slow motion picture um okay so yes the gun hits the tip of the fingers like what you're saying they're chased about that's a great excuse for why the fingerprints are on there and you know what that snapped me she says that snapped me well I don't know whether that was the thing that snapped her but certainly something snapped her and so I think we are back into the idea here of stuff will happen and there is a psychotic episode that will erupt out of that you know basically I think conflict causes conflict causes the snapback and there must have been some form of conflict before this event which caused this episode of extreme violence again many of the things that we're talking about so for example glibness like it's okay to be glib if you're glib now and again that's totally fine if you've got a friend and they keep being glib doesn't mean they're there they're a psychopath it's about being glib in the place where society says it's okay to be glib and on the whole when you're taking a reporter or police officer through how the shooting of your kids went out it's generally considered bad form bad mother bad member of society to be glib at that point so on its own people do all kinds of weird stuff when they're under extreme stress and pressure and that's why we have to look for clusters of this and a fuller story just because somebody was glib at the funeral doesn't mean they topped them okay just so you know that doesn't doesn't mean anything i've seen people do all kinds of odd stuff at uh at at funerals the gun kept firing and firing and firing and it it made it was monotonous it just kept going it was like a slow motion picture when he swung around he was pointing when he swung around it hit the tips of my fingers the gun hit the tips my fingers and that snapped me and i went i'm not trapped by society i don't care if he is bigger if i stand here and i say yeah here take the keys i mean there's nothing i can do you win because you have the gun my kids are gonna die and i'm not gonna let my kids die and so instead of giving him the keys i feigned throwing the keys but at night when i close my eyes i can see christy reaching her hand out to me while i'm driving and the blood just keep coming out of her mouth and that maybe it'll fade too with time but i i don't think so that haunts me the most chase what do you got i think her entire persona is a mosaic of collected expressions and behaviors and one-liners from murder she wrote matt lock perry mason and those other tv shows and i'm not kidding because this is what a psychopath does to learn behaviors and learn responses and learn sentences and sentence fragments and how to sound like you get along with people and we're hearing a lot of this stuff one thing i wanted to do today i didn't have time i'm sorry i wanted to take her script and run it through an ai of the script of all those tv shows because i'm willing to bet some of that stuff matches up with something she heard in a show or many things that she heard in a show but this is probably something that she does genuinely think about it and notice there's no haunting imagery of the children being hurt which i think would dominate the memory of any mother on planet earth it's the her being uncomfortable about seeing the blood and at the end her smile in my opinion and scott you called on me first i'm sure somebody's going to disagree and i welcome it uh i think it's likely a result of her seeing the emotional effect of what she said on the interviewer i think that's why there's a time gap there dude the last thing i've got on there dang it he got me on that one good catch son of a god okay i was so psyched for that one man i was like that's why i said i think i've got the thing here sorry man no it's okay that's a good one though that makes me feel good you know that we that we got something similar but that's all i got for this one um scott what do you think well not that it matters now yeah i was gonna say what i think that's the best one of the i got at the bottom do i was like i'm not even missing uh it's about the stuff i was so i was so ready for that okay again this one's all about her it's i'm in in 17 seconds she says i me and my eight times that's a lot that's a whole lot when it's all about you or when you're talking about anything you'd be talking about turtles you talk about turtles eight times in 17 seconds that's a lot you know so again we're seeing confusion with the emotion to display here and not just the emotion but the expressions she shows as well everything is odd here everything the reason you feel like it's odd and then it gets weird and that smile comes up at the end it just it's so odd it's going down one road it just totally goes to another one so she's these emotions she's doing like i was saying earlier she's and jace has brought up she's seeing those in tv shows and movies and she's she's showing you what she's learned from those so and apparently she doesn't have a whole lot of friends because these are actually i agree with you chase i think from tv and movies and when when the few people that have interacted with her i don't mean like two or three i just don't think she's a very social person having anti-social personality disorder i think she's uh i think she's just getting from movies and stuff so i think that's where we're seeing that again that i'm going back to to a touch of histrionic personality here because those emotions change so quickly in there they just flip flip flip they get really big and then really small really big and really small and when you go from at the end of a sentence one emotion ends like i was saying earlier and then you start another one another a completely different emotion as the next one begins something's up there something's not right um you totally knew i had a big speech going for this last thing there too chase dang it so anyway i agree with the 100 chase i think at the end there she's but that's part of histrionic personality as well trying to make sure everything's cool and trying to make sure that girl likes her but see there's that that space there where nothing's happening she's not talking so her brain just goes blank and then she thinks to smile because i'm sure that woman has a horrified look on her face and she's saying all these things as anybody would be like to not be doing that would just be so so tough not not to be doing that when somebody's talking about all that stuff you just feel weird so she sees that one being uncomfortable and she's trying to to make everything okay make sure it's cool one thing we're seeing here as well the one thing is the psychopathic stare is what i usually call it but you usually see that from across the room if you're in a bar you're at a party and some person keeps looking at you and you look away and you come back and they're still looking at you and you like take a drink of something turn back around they're still looking at you and you think oh this person's connecting with me no they're not no they're not a lot of times what that is is that is the psychopath does that because they don't know it's weird to keep looking at you like that they don't get that weird feeling in there that after two seconds looking in the eye they should look away or three seconds whatever it is so they keep looking at you they keep staring at you and what was what was that girl the woman that was from that we did and she smiled all the time and talked real low what's her name elizabeth holmes she did that a lot she was trying to pull off the psychic psychopathic stare but i don't think she understood she was why that happened i think i explained it in that show but that's what we're seeing there a lot of times she just locks eyes because she doesn't know when to look away because she doesn't understand that it makes other people comfortable because nobody ever says that nobody nobody ever says that this may be the first time you've heard this somebody say you know it's really weird when somebody keeps looking at you like that and here's why so i think that's what's happening there i think we're seeing a lot of that and she doesn't break eye contact because she doesn't know to that's even looking on here like with you guys and and i see you look at the camera and i look away sometimes because i feel like you're looking right at me it's just it's just i know we all do that because i watch everybody as you all do too but that's that's what lacks in that is that being able to break eye contact and be comfortable doing that so i agree with the chase dang it down there at the end that uh that smile that's why it's weird all right uh mark what do you got yeah so you know always check out for that stare though because i was once with somebody and they was they said to me hey you know see that person over there staring at me what do you reckon to that would you you know do you reckon they're a bit odd and i was like just remind me who you are again well they were one of the most famous people on tv at the time so you've always got to remind you know sometimes you're part of the problem you know sometimes you you there's a very good reason why people are staring at you so just because somebody's staring at you doesn't mean that they're psychopathic there's many other elements in there now are psychopaths good liars well this one isn't particularly is she so so there's there's your evidence she can't really even sustain that dramatic element that she's trying to get there you know doing doing as good a job as she can it's not too bad of being super dramatic she's helped in this particular clip because she's got a really dramatic cello playing i don't know where that cellist is somewhere in the room i'd be like man i'm trying to tell my story can you shut up with you with your cello there's a cellist in the room there you know adding the drama to it uh but but she can't even sustain it she has to has to break and and deliver and make a change and cut the tension of it for herself uh so really interesting there um so again i want to reiterate there's there's there's many things that may or may not be feelings that are happening there and the main point is it's antisocial behavioral disorder because they aren't the feelings that we the majority of us would expect to have at that point and because of that that's why the dsm over time changes because society changes our idea of how somebody should act changes her she's she's a a a collection of ideas about human beings oh she's got that diana haircut now is that because she's being grandiose and going hey i'm i'm the most famous woman on the planet uh is that grandiosity everybody had a lady diana haircut i had a lady diana haircut at that time i'm pretty sure like everybody had that haircut so you can't just because somebody has a grandiose haircut now it's like what do you think she is looking like lady diana doesn't mean you got to look at the time and go well what was everybody doing uh at the time nonetheless all of that all of that said i'm only trying to you know take up space because everybody knows by now she's she's pretty bad and all we can really learn from this is how would we spot somebody else that's bad like that well on the whole you're never going to come into contact with people who are bad like that they're pretty pretty rare which is a a fantastic thing and so most of the time if you're in a place where you know where the exits are you've maybe got some friends with you you're feeling pretty confident you know you've got a you've got resource around you you've got your phone with you you don't need to worry if somebody's staring at you now if you're on your own and you don't have resource around you yeah time to time to arm up and and get yourself out of that situation i would say uh greg what do you got on this one yeah so let's take forget everything we've told you about her being a psychopath this woman who is interviewing her's name is ann jager and if you do nothing else watch her body language she shows apparent emotion there's slight disgust maybe in her face her brows point to the center and that we know is sorrow there's concern in her face is rigid well we would think our little princess sitting across might pick up on that and think hey what's wrong with me why am i not making her happy or feel sorry for me or something else and you would think she would change her tone to your point chase maybe she's enjoying it maybe she just can't see what's normal in a person when she's looking at her and that's the reason she just keeps talking about blood and she does it with all the passion of that i i'm ironing my socks thing again if you ever watch the movie i'll go back to my favorite movie forest gump bubba gump telling about the shrimp and then there's shrimp scampi and shrimp this and sweet and sour shrimp she's got all the passion of that as she tells this story she's just loping along and she gets right on past it and then she does this smile i think the smile is because she's in front of the camera she's in front of somebody i think this goes back to the grandiosity of personality and this is her moment in the limelight she's told them that she was frustrated now she's getting the chance to say this i think we're just seeing more of that same lack of person inside there and i'll just leave it at that but at night when i close my eyes i can see christie reaching her hand out to me while i'm driving and the blood just keep coming out of her mouth and that maybe it'll fade too with time but i i don't think so that haunts me the most i got pregnant because i miss christie and i miss danny and i miss chiral so much i'm never gonna see chiral on earth again and i just you can't replace children but you can replace the effect that they give you and they give me love they give me satisfaction they give me stability they give me a reason to live and a reason to be happy and and that's gone they took it from me but children are so easy to conceive all right greg what do you got yeah this is one of my favorites it's the darkest thing i've ever seen come out of a single human being's mouth i mean there's some pretty horrible things going on if this would be funny if it were not so horrific but so we talk about hair i've got a little short list here of things that she demonstrates in a short sentence glib and superficial behavior lack of remorse lack of empathy shallow emotion and promiscuity we don't have to ask i just make babies because i have a uterus okay cool not only that but i like babies because they make me feel good i like babies because they're kind of like dolls what they do for me there's not a single thing in there about emotional attachment they give her love i didn't hear anything about her giving them love everything they give her and the worst part of the whole thing is she is self-amused ha she's so unaware that she's not a human being that she just rattles the stuff off as if she's in a therapy session and trying to get help there's real joy in her face and i don't think there's anything that you can get this darker than this right here mark what do you got yeah absolutely there is delight and satisfaction so you know the idea is there is no emotion from a psychopath delight and satisfaction are feelings and she does have delight and satisfaction she is delighted by the idea of give me she says that twice give me give me and there's an eye flash on it the eyes open right up so great feeling for her on that there's an eye roll on sherle so it she is dismissive of of that child in particular um yeah it all children are there to serve her feelings and that's her her reasoning around that they are a commodity for her satisfaction now again that is antisocial that's that's a now you may find people in your life who may say something of that now and again but all of this rolled into one we're seeing something really quite uh different and extreme uh scott what are you going this one all right she has no idea how bizarre this is you can see it on her she has no clue this is like the the weirdest oddest thing this and you're right greg this is dark man she's talking about little children like their toys and dolls that's out there that's bizarre she's showing glib and superficial charm talks about promiscuous behavior that's what's going on here she's again she's displaying the wrong emotions for what's happening here this is she shouldn't be talking about and she talks about i won't see her on earth again like we believe she's religious like she's some religious person i think that's her way to sprinkle that in there because she's heard people say that before so that's why she's that's another reason she's putting that in there she's got a need for stimulation now that's what because she's prone to boredom that's another thing on the the hair checklist we've got four of them on in this little group here so she she wants children to entertain herself with that is crazy for that and uh the irresponsibility that she's showing here by saying that and by the way she's going to the way she views children i think this says it all right here about her or most of it anyway but i agree greg that's that's some dark stuff there chase what do you got hey just let's just do it since you guys are jumping all over the psychopathy i'm just going to do a linguistics analysis here you're saying i got pregnant not we decided or i chose to have a baby this is weird self-focus not just so focus i think the science term for this is super duper weird self-focus with no regard for the child no regard for the who the father of that child is and she describes children how people describe service animals or people describe drugs on a pharmaceutical commercial like if you're watching a commercial for like some diabetes medication or something that's how she describes kids when she uses the words that's gone when this clip comes back on when she's saying that's gone she's talking about her own children secondarily she uses the words they took it from me and what does it mean that's her kids it is her group of kids and there's a vanishing perpetrator here there's distancing language it's really bad but this whole thing about children are so easily conceived even if she was talking about like losing a dog and just not a big deal i can go back to the spca and get another one even that would be horrifying to hear this is one of the worst things i've ever seen in all of our videos and no joke this morning i took a break after watching this video and spent 10 minutes watching baby animal videos not joking just to get my mind back into a good place that's all i've got one i got pregnant because i miss christie and i miss danny and i miss chiral so much i'm never gonna see chiral on earth again and i just you can't replace children but you can replace the effect that they give you and they give me love they give me satisfaction they give me stability they give me a reason to live and a reason to be happy and and that's gone they took it from me but children are so easily conceived two years time i had 10 separate lovers two years that's not very many and less than half of them were married all right mark what do you got yeah so look 10 i don't know who you are out there you know 10 in two years maybe many might not be enough maybe too little you know that some are married and some are not i don't know you know i don't know what your society thinks is applicable and that's why you can't necessarily judge people as being psychopathic simply based on what people will term promiscuity because with promiscuity there's a sense of well is this a feature of the antisocial behavioral disorder is it a consequence of it or is it unrelated let's just take the attitude that it might be a consequence because what it comes down to is can this person hold substantial relationships for any length of time we look at the rest of her life and we go well it's quite possible she doesn't hold a substantial relationship with her kids for very long because she ends up shooting them it's possible therefore that this another consequence of not being able to hold down relationships is she has you know a number of partners in a short amount of time for some out there but not all and that's why prom if you've got a if you if you see somebody you think i think they're a bit promiscuous i think they might be psychopathic well possibly possibly not something in between that's the nature of antisocial behavior disorder it's on a spectrum and it depends what part of society you're you're part of as to where you'll fit in with that but an interesting talking point scott what do you got on this one all right sorry about that um okay i'll make this very short we got four of them on here being promiscuous promiscuous behavior that's on the on the checklist impulsive she has to be impulsive to be doing all that many short-term relationships that's one that's a biggie on the on the checklist and then being irresponsible that is and just flipping about the whole thing like it's nothing she again she doesn't understand what's wrong with what she's saying how odd that seems to be in a no normal social situation so that knocks out four of them right there greg what do you got yeah i think you gotta take into account the audience and she's sitting across from somebody and looking at his face and she doesn't see that he's shocked by it the interesting piece for me is culture is everything mark you hit dead on you know in my military days 30 years ago the culture is very different than in my world i live in now and plus you know so world is very different depends on who you're talking to we always have these running jokes about the way people talk a lot of it's related to military but what's interesting with her here is the only place she does any real emphatic is when she said only half were married her voice is very emphatic only half were married okay well she knows that people are upset about it and yet she continues to drive it the biggest part of this whole thing is lack of any understanding of how other people perceive her chase what do you got i'm just gonna skip over this really quick and this is the part where i'm just gonna drop my crazy theory that i mentioned at the beginning of this so stay with me i think she has an innate capacity for what most people might first assume to be compartmentalization and in my opinion she has become a psycho level expert at relabeling so she has the ability to relabel or redefine her own memory and her behavior to mean anything that she wants and i think here's the interesting part here i think she does this on paper and i actually mean that she does this whole process of rewiring what she believes and feels about stuff on paper i'm willing to bet she's got journals and notebooks around her house probably her jail cell now that she processes and then relabels her memories and behaviors by writing it down and i think she looks at it kind of tilts her head back and forth and analyzes this new belief that she wants for herself this new reality that she manufactured and i'm talking like a post-it note not some big drawn-out novel but then she instantly adopts this new belief about herself and what she's done and i think this is why that we're seeing her speak this way she's absorbed a lot of her personality from tv and what we're hearing here the way that these words are jumbled and scripted and kind of choppy it's exactly a hundred percent like reading a screenplay because john comes in door opens someone gets mad it's like reading the step by step of a screenplay and i think she processes data this way and i think that's what we're actually saying here totally unrelated to this video two years time i had 10 separate lovers two years that's not very many and less than half of them were married it wasn't an intentional lie though i didn't sit to change your story oh yeah yeah i i agree i mean you know you've heard it it's obvious doesn't that make it seem kind of tough to believe what you're saying if you change your story two months after the shooting i'm sorry i mean i'm not saying that you have to believe me i'm not saying that anybody has to believe me but i know within myself i can sit here with a clear conscience and know that i did not shoot my kids greg what do you got yeah she shows real confusion at why why this is happening to her i don't think she understands why the guy's asking her these questions and then she does the glib and superficial behavior thing like yeah i lied and then she tries a really really lame attempt at what i call the matador i'm going to turn and let the bull go by but she's too dumb to do it and then she starts to get into a bind she uses her forehead to browbeat as she's saying you know and then you see the self amusement in her face but she actually shows signs of real stress her blink rate increases she tries to talk her way out of it and i think her she's frying circuits i think she's just running out of what out of runway here and then you see your breaker eye contact down to the right here again i don't think that breaking eye contact is emotional eye accessing i think it's just getting away and i think she's learned to break eye contact in prison because you might be a psychopath but there's a lot worse than you standing around you shot your kids they might have cut up you know who knows who so you learn to behave differently chase what you got i think this whole thing is a great example of her relabeling all of her abilities it's the first time we see some good emotional accessing but it's when she's being called out the all the emotions about her and if you are being honest you should say that people should believe you you shouldn't say that people have to believe you because this is the truth and just breaking down her statement she says i can sit here which is removal then kids there's no mention of name and she says did not which is a non-contraction there's also a vanishing perpetrator completely this perpetrator doesn't even exist and hardly less than five percent of what's going on here when it would take up 95 percent of a truth teller's story who went through an ordeal like she's describing then she says i did not do it think about this for just a second if you watched a crime get committed you wouldn't deny doing it you would say who did it there's a big difference the phrase i did not do it means you don't know who did or you you have no idea how it happened about a hundred percent of truthful people will be redirecting most questions back to the perpetrator not a denial it will redirect back to the perpetrator and that's all i got scott all right this is really interesting for me because when i i believe beyond a shadow of doubt i put all my chips on we're looking at psychopath here however when you corner a psychopath or even a hardcore narcissist or a clinical narcissist let's say they're gonna get mad when you start telling them that that they're busted that they did something wrong you messed up you changed your story you did this they're gonna be a little bit angry and sometimes weren't a little bit angry with you and in this case she doesn't do it she backs down that's why i think the histrionic part comes in here because she's trying to make everything okay with this guy which is bizarre for me to see that with that personality type trying to make everything okay trying to smooth things out i can understand if you're in the middle of it at the first and you're trying to say oh wait i gotta you're trying to structure your story but you're doing on the fly that can happen but in this case she said years to think about it she said years sitting in there by herself and and to think about her story and all that and then that happens so that that's really odd for me i that's that's why i think that we're dealing with the histrionic personality type as well um that's what i got so she should be defending her ego ego but she really isn't or you're gonna say great she's flirting with him pay attention to it she's flirting with him you think so yes i wouldn't doubt it i wouldn't doubt at that point for sure personality type all right uh mark what do you got yep so she doesn't understand i think the gravity the social gravity of the situation she is not conscientious of it she doesn't quite fully understand the gravity of what she has done i mean you know she understands she's in the clink and you know she's incarcerated and but she doesn't understand within a social context why this should be so so bad so to the point of the book that scott and greg both have with them there she is without conscious she is without a conscientiousness and therefore uh well what you'll notice is in a while when we see her in front of a parole board is she is not reformable because she is never going to understand not she understands what happens she understands what she does what she did but she doesn't understand what that means to the rest of us zero idea of what that means to the rest of us and therefore you can't trust her you can't trust her out there you have to incarcerate her if that's you know the the the highest extent that you're going to go to you have to incarcerate her irreformable and therefore we're going to see uh in a moment the parole board are not having it and they're never going to have it there are some there are some reformable people out there she's not one of them it wasn't an intentional lie though i didn't sit to change your story oh yeah yeah i i agree i mean you know you've heard it it's obvious doesn't that make it seem kind of tough to believe what you're saying if you change your story two months after the shooting i'm sorry i mean i'm not saying that you have to believe me i'm not saying that anybody has to believe me but i know within myself i can sit here with a clear conscience and know that i did not shoot my kids told law enforcement that uh this was done by two men with ski masks this is what somebody told me this it how do i explain this after my children and i were attacked the police kept saying diane you must have lapses in your memory because there's holes in this you could drive a semi truck through none of this makes sense um you're forgetting something i believed because i'd never had any dealings with authorities and i believed the authorities and so i thought they did that i had lapses of memory i can't tell you how the towel got around my arm so i know from my own personal experience that i did have at least that much of a lapse of memory i don't know how the towel got around my arm so when i i would have what people would call me up and people would say i know so-and-so and he said such and such um i have a name another guy would call and say i have a neighbor and he has a car that just looks just like that and he's been talking these kinds of things were being said to me either by phone people would stop me on my mail route they would i worked in cottage grove and people would drive all the way to cottage grove just to meet me on my mail route and tell me these kinds of things so i would call the police or i would go to the police and i would say these i would say this is what's being told to me those are the kinds of things they would say that i changed my story i wasn't changing my story i was trying to help the police kept saying i had lapses of memory people were calling me and telling me things that i thought well maybe this is what happened that i don't know and so i would tell the police believing that i was helping them investigate they didn't tell anybody that these are reports that i was giving them reports from other people they would simply say diane came in and said such the one about the ski mask was dreams that i was having and they kept saying well maybe you forgot something so when i would have a dream and i would wake up i would think well maybe that's what i would forget and so i the ski mask story i didn't tell the police i was talking to somebody on the phone and i was trying to and i was sharing this dream this thought with somebody trying to understand in the same way that you would talk to a psychologist or a psychiatrist so that you can because if you talk maybe you can reach something maybe you can find something that's inside you that's locked off and so i was sharing this with somebody else and the police were tape recording those phone calls and then said oh there she goes she changed her story and that wasn't it and they know that wasn't it chase what he got first it's the ski mask for what somebody told her and then it was part of a dream that we see in here but she uses the word attacked which is super weird nobody who watched that happen to their children would use the word attacked they would use all kinds of very descriptive words to talk about it and but she i think it's interesting she wants to include herself in the victims in the list of victims and i think that's why she says that there's no mention of killing or shooting or death at all in the very beginning of this clip this is not steepling according to me one of you guys may disagree but i think there's a lot of internet experts out there we're going to tell you that what you're seeing there is some kind of steepling it's not i'll let what do you guys uh break that down but i think this might be a fear response i'll just leave it at that but she continues to redirect towards this victimhood but the biggest thing here when she's talking about her dreams she said i would wake up and maybe that's what i would forget but she's talking about one thing sounds like spidey what's that sounds like spidey he's going i can't remember i forgot to remember to forget where he's talking to that yeah that's crazy but it's one data point not what you would forget it's what you did forget to me this is a huge red flag on fire and on steroids at the same time incredible red flag biggest one of the whole thing but one question i want you to if you're watching this with a pen and paper write it down how comfortable is this person that i'm speaking to with unknown information versus ambiguity now let me just give you two quick scenarios a truthful person should if there's unknown information they should be comfortable confident and direct if there's ambiguity they should be uncomfortable confident and direct truthful people do enjoy introducing or injecting deliberately ambiguity into anything so if ambiguity is uncomfortable for truthful people it's also something they will never deliberately introduce into the scenario they are uncomfortable with ambiguity and comfortable with inaccurate stuff and lapses of memories or something being inaccurate that's okay ambiguity is not we see a massive she pulls in an 18 wheeler full of ambiguity and just dumps a pile of it onto everything that we're seeing here and uh that's all i got for that one uh greg what do you think yeah she starts off with an oops moment she pauses uncharacteristic of her she pauses and then those hands come up now i'm not gonna scott you pray have a name for that but that's mercy that is mercy that is mercy all day she's burying and she's pressing on her hands so it's sacred space she's got she's adapting it energy and doing this she goes into a kind of an internal voice to try to figure out what to say and then she does one of my favorite things that you haven't seen on this show yet when you pressure someone in interrogation and you really are climbing all over them they'll finish a sentence and there will be extra words at the end i say it's like editing an email and forgetting to take all the garbage out at the end and the more pressure you put on someone and the less storage capacity they have in their little brains the more liable they are to and she does that when she says i thought they did and then she's like what the hell did that mean and she knows it and she tries to fix it that's a really good indicator that she's trying to rifle through this and then she goes into listen to that cadence pitch and tone and a lot of you're gonna say oh i know what this is it's chaff and redirect no this is a filibuster chaff and redirect has a purpose trying to get somebody to pick it up she's just doing what senators do when they're trying to kill a bill reading from the phone book if i put enough information out there maybe they'll just leave me alone and go away mark what do you got yeah um look i've met some more dangerous people than her i would not want to i would rather be in a cell with them than she's gonna talk like that like that would do my head in that would absolutely do me i like that is extraordinary and by the way this is her at her best okay this is her explaining at the top of her capacity i would say and here's why and i think it's to do with what many people might go okay i think that's steepling what that is for me is she's bringing her hands in symmetry down her wheel plane which means she's focusing her mind she literally goes hang on how do i explain this good question how do you explain this and she musters both hemispheres down the center and goes right i'm gonna give this my best shot and what you're hearing from her right now is her best shot at an explanation and it is utterly incoherent and it goes on and on and on and it gets no more sensible it just drifts off into non sequiturs and things that simply don't matter um i mean she even starts to uh illustrate quite quite well but after a while she can't support them you see that she'll start to illustrate and then it loses buoyancy and she she musters her best energy again and tries to get her idea out and it loses buoyancy utterly un incoherent that is a nightmare to be around that i would suggest scott what do you think i just realized i look like i watch one of those hallmark christmas movies sitting back here like you need you need more net you need bigger knitwear oh that's true too that's true too anyway i've seen this before and i think what's what we're seeing and this is horrible it's a it's a beginning of of dementia and she's old enough to be in that situation and that just talking and talking and talking and thinking about all the things that she's used uh to put in her story or different kinds of things that would come up for her story to put in there i think that's what's happening and she can't shut up i think she just keeps talking into that's two minutes for just you know answering a simple question and there's no answer in there it's just talking and talking and that's i never felt sorry for i don't but that that was kind of sad for me to see to realize what was happening there because she just keeps talking and it keeps going off on these weird jags and coming around and bringing it back around so i think to me that's what looks like's happening i think we're seeing a little cognitive decline a little more than a little bit of cognitive decline there you told law enforcement that uh this was done by two men with ski masks this is what somebody told me this it how do i explain this after my children and i were attacked the police kept saying diane you must have lapses in your memory because there's holes in this you could drive a semi truck through none of this makes sense um you're forgetting something i believed because i'd never had any dealings with authorities and i believe the authorities and so i thought they did that i had lapses of memory i can't tell you how the towel got around my arm so i know from my own personal experience that i did have at least that much of a lapse of memory i don't know how the towel got around my arm so when i i would have what people would call me up and people would say i know so and so and he said such and such um i have a name another guy would call and say i have a neighbor and he has a car that just looks just like that and he's been talking these kinds of things were being said to me either by phone people would stop me on my mail route they would i worked in cottage grove and people would drive all the way to cottage grove just to meet me on my mail route and tell me these kinds of things so i would call the police or i would go to the police and i would say these i would say this is what's being told to me those are the kinds of things they would say that i changed my story i wasn't changing my story i was trying to help the police kept saying i had lapses of memory people were calling me and telling me things that i thought well maybe this is what happened that i don't know and so i would tell the police believing that i was helping them investigate they didn't tell anybody that these are reports that i was giving them reports from other people they would simply say diane came in and said such and such the one about the ski mask was dreams that i was having and they kept saying well maybe you forgot something so when i would have a dream and i would wake up i would think well maybe that's what i would forget and so i the ski mask story i didn't tell the police i was talking to somebody on the phone and i was trying to and i was sharing this dream this thought with somebody trying to understand in the same way that you would talk to a psychologist or a psychiatrist so that you can because if you talk maybe you can reach something maybe you can find something that's inside you that's locked off and so i was sharing this with somebody else and the police were tape recording those phone calls and then said oh there she goes she changed her story and that wasn't it and they know that wasn't it so i throw it out of the room and and everybody say what they think's happening here and start with mark chase greg and i wrap it up yeah nothing to look at here you know it's just quite extreme just quite extreme it's a little bit self-explanatory i think uh you don't need to know what i think about it you need to know what you think about it and and how you're gonna react if you you know see any of those is the chicken come scott yeah chicken come sorry man i mean don't let me don't let me don't let me get away i'm so sorry don't let me get in the way i'll be done it's all right you've only got a genius in the room that's all it's all right i'm sorry you know it's hot chicken tuesday i mean you know don't let no it's running late no problem you know i can't compete with the chicken chase what do you got i think this is this is a great example of a person who i'm going back to it is deeply affected and learned to live through television because there's a lack of friends a lack of social development so perry mason the murder she wrote columbos maybe she didn't watch columbos she might have done a better job but a lot of those tv shows we're hearing those weird one-liners that sound like script writing and it's great and this last video is a wonderful example of how effective statements are versus questions because they didn't really ask her about what she was talking about at all that and that's all that information came from that so it's a great video great for training uh greg what do you got yeah this is not a normal human being but has the capability to make children and use that capability to the detriment of those children four times and saw them as nothing more than toys guys she's in the right place even if to stop her from making more babies and that was the only reason you put her away that's the right answer this person showed no remorse show glib and superficial behavior we can run down the list and check all those off but her already did it for us when he put us he put her in the book on page four between ramirez and bundy good good location scott what you got all right i really like this one because it it gets it's it's not a classic narcissist because this is so overdone it's it's like one all wound up on ten it's a great example of one and there were eleven that she covered in this eleven uh right out of the eleven items from the the hair psychopathy checklist let's go down real quick we had shallow effect affect the callous lack of empathy a lack of remorse or guilt grandiose self uh grandiose sense of self glib and superficial charm uh promiscuous behavior the need for stimulation because he's bored uh irresponsibility pathological lying uh impulse being impulsive and uh many short term relationships and that's eleven out of the twenty that are on there and again there'll be a link in the bottom down here if you want to go find out what the rest of those are and and how they work into the psychopathy checklist all right now we've left a little something for you here at the end a little gift and it's uh you watch it and you tell us in the comments what you think is going on here and we'll check it out we actually do get into the comments and read those so we'll we'll get a look at that did not commit these murders were the the murder and the other crimes you were convicted of absolutely i didn't commit them and i still maintain my innocence somebody in the road flagged us down i stopped and got out of the got out of my car and he said something to the effect of i want your car and i laughed at him and i said you've got to be kidding because in my mind those kinds of things don't happen in arizona those things don't happen i don't know about orgin but in arizona those things don't happen and so he jumped into the car leaned into the car and started firing the weapon and it happened so quickly that by the time he stood up and faced me it was over i mean it was just that fast i he said something about the car again and i struggled with him the gun discharged he fell back i jumped in the car put the keys in the ignition and took off the car door shut by itself that's it and i went to the hospital christie and dan christie and dany were in the back seat when we got to the hospital they were still crying the nurses reported that they were still crying the state says i that i was the one that shot them and that i wanted them dead if that was the case i would not have taken to the hospital still crying there are so many other ways to accomplish such a horrific deed if i was going to do it and certainly bright enough to figure out another way besides some way that looks so absolutely insane and hokey that nobody would believe it i'm not dumb all right fellas think this is a good one and we'll see you next time see you