 Am I good to start now or? Hey everybody, welcome to modern day debate. Tonight's topic is Mormonism true. We've got Aaron Ra on the atheist side and Kyle Adams going to start us off with the Mormon side. Kyle, the floor is all yours. Hey, it's good to be here. It's good to meet you, Aaron Ra. I'm a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, and when it comes to knowing if this church is true, it really depends on what that church is. We claim that this is the church that Jesus built back in his days, but it's been restored into our days. It's the exact same church, and we can know that this is the exact same church by examining its structure. I'm going to point you to just the very foundation itself. I'll wait for you to come back here for a moment here. Okay, well, I was kind of talking to him. I don't want to be talking. I'm just talking to the audience here. So I've got a scripture here that kind of helps us see the foundation of Jesus' church in his day, and I'll describe exactly how we have the exact same foundation that he established. And so I'll first point to Matthew 16. It says, When Jesus came into the coast of Caesarea Philippi, he asked his disciples saying, Whom do men say that I the Son of Man am? And they said, Some say that Thou art John the Baptist, some Elias, and others Jeremiah's, or one of the prophets. He saith unto them, But Whom say ye that I am? And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God. And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou Simon Barjona, for flesh and blood hath not revealed unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven. And I say unto thee, That Thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. So that's a really important scripture because it establishes the foundation of the church. He's not pointing to people and what other people say. It's all about that revelation. Blessed art thou Simon Barjona, for flesh and blood hath not manifested unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven. So as missionaries, when we go out and teach a lesson, our primary objective is to help you establish that same foundation that Jesus was able to establish with Peter here. It's our ambition, like every missionary's ambition to be able to look you square in the eye and say, Blessed art thou Aaron, or sorry, Aaron Ra. Blessed art thou Aaron Ra, for flesh and blood hath not manifested unto thee, but thy Father which is in heaven. That is a foundation of revelation that we all seek to help you establish. We want our Heavenly Father to manifest it unto you and that is the greatest proof that we could ever give you. Like, bar none. So with that foundation we can kind of see that repeated all throughout the Bible. Another really big place that we see that established is in the parable of the Ten Virgins. Jesus likens the kingdom of heaven unto Ten Virgins which shook their lamp and went forth to meet the bridegroom and there are five that are wise to bring their own oil and then there are five that are foolish and they don't have enough. They don't bring their own oil and it's a really powerful parable here because when the foolish say, give us of your oil for our lamps have gone out, the wise answer saying no, lest there not be enough for us and you, but go ye rather and sell them to them that sell and buy for yourselves. And then the foolish come and say, Lord, Lord, open to us. But he said, verily I say unto you, I know you not. That I know you not I think is one of the most powerful parts in this parable is for not letting the foolish virgins in because this oil represents a relationship. That's why he says, I know you not. And so we want to help people develop a relationship with their Savior and develop a relationship with our Heavenly Father. And when we have that same foundation today of a relationship that's humongous evidence that this is the exact same church that Jesus built. Another scripture here is Matthew chapter seven. It says, therefore whosoever hear these sayings of mine and do with them, I will liken unto a wise man which built his house upon a rock. So here we see that kind of same terminology. And the rains descended and the floods came and the winds blew and beat upon that house and it fell not for it was founded upon a rock. This rock is that sure foundation, you've got really good footing on it. And it says, and everyone that hear these sayings of mine and do with them not shall be likened unto a foolish man which built not his house upon a rock. Sorry, which built his house upon the sand and the rain descended and the floods came and the winds blew and beat upon the house and it fell and great was the fall of it. And it came to pass when Jesus had ended these sayings that the people were astonished at his doctrine. So it's all about having our own personal experiences. It's we can't just have, we can't just rely on someone else's experiences. It's all about us, what we witness for ourselves. And a lot of that is our own miracles, the manifestations of our Heavenly Father. And so when missionaries go out and teach people, it's all about helping them gain their own experiences. And we are able to, the way I like to describe it is it's Jesus described himself as living water. He's a well of living water. And sometimes when it comes to accessing water, we need to do a little bit of digging on our part. We have, and in order to draw that water up. And so in John says, and sorry, in John chapter seven, it says, Jesus answered them and said, my doctrine is not mine, but his that sent me. If any man will do his well, he will know of the doctrine, whether it be of God, or whether I speak of myself. And so that's part of the test here. And that's where I like to kind of bring science into this is we, we have to test the doctrine. And as we do the work, as we establish that connection, that's when we're able to draw out the water, taste of it for ourselves and witness these things for ourselves. If something, if I've witnessed something for myself, and someone tries to, oh, no, that's, you know, they try to cast doubt on it. That's kind of the wins and all these trials that kind of can beat upon you. But so long as I've witnessed it for myself, nothing's going to shake me. Yeah, there's a lot of secondhand witnesses and stuff. And that can, you know, that's not a very strong foundation. And so that's kind of what we saw with the parable of the Ten Virgins is the secondhand accounts, people trying to live on borrowed light. And then there's the first hand accounts that won't shake you. So this is a gospel that depends on first hand accounts, just like it did in Jesus's day. And I can personally tell you about all kinds of miracles that I have witnessed. Testifying that this church is true. I've seen my children healed. I've seen the power of the priesthood bless my family. It's given us a lot of direction and help throughout my life. I've seen many prayers answered. And I, okay, I promise you that if you can keep making, keep some basic commitments, meeting with the missionaries, that you'll see miracles happen in your life too. And you will have that experience for flesh and blood have not manifested unto thee, but thy father which is in heaven. And this I say in the name of Jesus Christ, amen. All right, Kyle. Thank you so much for those words. Before I pass things on to Aaron real quick, I just want to do a quick shout out to Dallas, Texas. If you're in Dallas, Texas right now, let me see you in the chat. Modern day debate is coming to Dallas, Texas to do a live show. As you can see in Aaron's incitement, he will also be there on stage for you guys debating some of the more interesting topics that you can pretty much imagine at debate con. I would wager there's going to be very few topics not touched on. You can get your tickets at the event center link here in the description. So feel free to head on down there. Now if you're not watching us today from Texas, no problem. We are also doing a crowdfund. So if you guys want to help support the channel and debate con, please click on the indigo link in the description and show your support in that way. I'm going to real quick hit the like button, as you guys all should, because Aaron, it is your turn. See, this is why it was more it would have been more responsible to have you command the mute button. All right. Yeah, thank you very much. In 1826, a 20-year-old grifter named Joseph Smith was arrested in Bainsbridge, New York on charges of being a disorderly person and an imposter, what we today would call a fraud. Court records referred to Smith as a glass looker, because he was hired by a wealthy businessman named Josiah Stowell to act as a sort of treasure digger, specifically a psychic seer who would locate treasure by the gift and power of God. However, finding hidden treasures using supernatural devices like divining rods or seer stones has the same record of consistent failure as does faith healing. So Smith never actually found any treasure. Stowell's nephew recognized that Joseph Smith was defrauding his uncle and filed a legal complaint. There's an old adage that it is easier to lie to someone than to convince them that they've been lied to, and that it was nicely illustrated here. Whether because of embarrassment or sunk cost fallacy or shame or simple credulity, it is often the case that the victim or mark of a con job doesn't realize that they've been had until everyone else points it out. So Stowell testified on Joseph's behalf about how these treasure digs worked. Smith said that he had a certain stone which he could put in a hat and that he would put his his face in the hat and the stone would act like a crystal ball showing him where to find hidden gold. And Smith had performed the supernatural service for Josiah Stowell several times wherein Smith told Stowell where he could dig to find these treasures. Stowell paid Smith for the information and Doug were instructed, but never found any of the promised gold. Smith's father Joseph Sr. testified on little Joey's behalf saying that his boy really did possess the power and gift of God because of course he did. If it's true that the apple doesn't fall far from the tree then it's fair to assume that Joseph Smith Sr. was a crooked liar just like his son. Either he was just trying to save his own child or he might have really believed that because people can be really stupid as my interlocutor will doubtless demonstrate for you tonight. Other witnesses testified that they were disgusted at the palpable deception that Smith used. Another stated that Joseph pretended to know the location of a buried treasure chest that Joseph said that you know as they kept digging for it he said that the treasure chest kept settling away from them on account of an enchantment such that no matter how deep they dug the trunk kept repeating deeper keeping about the same distance away from them according to the information that Smith pretended to get from the magic rock in his hat. So we're talking about imagined inanimate objects retreating as if consciously and allegedly magically to escape detection and hide further down in the earth. That anyone ever actually believed this is a testament to how stunningly stupid people can be. Smith played this con for years in a few places it was reported that Smith pretended to know where lost property of various kinds could be found in Palmyra and that he used his seer stone pretending to know where coins were buried in Pennsylvania but while he often collected payment for using this alleged psychic powers in this way no one could cite a single instance where this stunt ever led to anyone actually finding anything of value. Somehow Smith somehow Josiah Stowell was still unaware of how he had been fooled even though his own testimony on Smith's behalf made that so obvious to everyone else that it was damning. Joseph Smith was convicted and fined for fraud but he was too poor to pay the fine because he obviously couldn't really find hidden gold after all he could pretend to you know to give up the whereabouts and then collect his payment for some greedy from some greedy gullible rube and then get the hell out of there while someone else dug and dug and dug for it in vain. Still the judge at the time apparently showed inappropriate leniency he didn't want to throw Joe in jail just for being poor so he allowed him what they call at the time leg bale a designed escape in other words the judge simply let the boy go. It's too bad too if the judge had done what he legally should have done we wouldn't have a Mormon church today because one year later Joseph Smith using that same seer stone claimed to have found the golden plates which became the Book of Mormon so he finally found his own gold oh except that no one else ever actually got to see those golden plates they had to be hidden away in secret for Joe's eyes only yeah because people really can be that dumb especially when faith is involved because then you're going to see things that aren't even there now just to get into the appropriate mindset of the time and just as we today fantasize about spaceships that we haven't built yet Americans in the early part of the 19th century fantasized about submarines which they hadn't perfected yet and just as we might fixate on hidden codes of one kind or another so too did they knowing that Egyptians had a formal language that no one yet knew how to read well the Rosetta stone had actually been deciphered in 1822 just five years earlier but news traveled much more slowly back then so Joseph Smith was as yet unaware of this in 1827 when he claimed to have found a book made of gold that was allegedly written in an imaginary language that he made up and called a reformed Egyptian he said that the secret book that no one else but him could see was written by pre-Columbian Native Americans who were allegedly secretly Jewish immigrants and pre-christian Christians who came to the holy land and you know from came from the holy land to the work in the new world aboard wooden submarines that were allegedly built around 2600 BCE and then also an ocean faring boat that was built around 600 BCE now Joseph Smith conned another gullible rude Martin Harris who was wealthy enough and stupid enough to fund the translation process and not only would he fund it making him Joseph Smith's boss but he would also be Smith's employee working as his scribe over a period of translation wherein no one was allowed to see the golden plates that they're supposed to be translating the resulting work was the book of Mormon which was largely a ripoff of the bible but with a lot of obvious fan fiction thrown in when they finished the first book the book of Lehi Martin asked to take the manuscript home with him to get his wife's approval of the investment Martin then returned to Joseph Smith with the news that the 116 page book was lost and most historians believe that Lucy Martin's wife was simply withhold withholding the manuscript to see if Joseph could reproduce the book of Lehi verbatim either that or she burned it in disgust either way Joseph Smith could not reproduce it because he wasn't translating from an original document like he said he was making up as he making it up as he went along and he couldn't remember everything he wrote verbatim so instead Joseph Smith wrote first and second Nephi to replace the book of Lehi and he claimed it was from the same timeline but from a different perspective of Lehi's son Nephi and therefore contained many of the same elements but was written differently a bold save but that bullshit excuse obviously failed to convince Mrs. Harris who was obviously much wiser than her foolish husband so Martin was cut out of the translation process and all of her dowry took over yet Joseph Smith was still able to dupe Martin Harris out of more money whenever he needed it and this is when Lucy Harris decided that she couldn't stay married to such a credulous stooge anymore so she sued for divorce and the Harris farm was liquidated to settle the suit and to fund the printing of the book of Mormon thus Joseph Smith established the Mormon church then at the height of Egyptomania which was going on at the time an artifact dealer heard that Joseph Smith could translate Egyptian so he sold some mummies and papyri to to the church and Joseph translated the hieroglyphs creating his own Egyptian alphabet out of the individual characters he eventually translated one portion the book of Abraham and published it in 1842 along with three facsimiles in the papyri it was canonized in 1880 and remains modern Mormon scripture to this day however by 1855 it was known that the translation was fabricated and false the actual papyri were common funerary rights that the text dating to more than a millennium after the biblical Abraham the papyri were that were thought to have been lost were rediscovered in the late 1960s and Joseph's translation is nonsense and every serious Egyptologist today rejects it even the church itself knows the book of Abraham is false because they admitted that none of the characters in the papyrus fragments mentioned Abraham's name or any of the events recorded in the book of Abraham the early Mormon church was dangerously militant and engaged in organized crime Smith for example reportedly ran brothels where his cult girls would would would poison his political opponents at his command and their bodies would then feed the fishes in the river and as he was the prophet and he could make the scriptures say whatever he wanted just like Muhammad before him then Joseph was allowed to have as many wives as he wanted somewhere between 30 and 40 they could be as young as he wanted he was caught with a 16 year old he married a 14 year old and sometimes he would simply take another man's wife as his own just because he wanted to that's that's what an awful crime boss he was Smith was arrested numerous times in various charges but usually escaped conviction 1830 was arrested multiple times for being a disorderly person and then he moved from New York to Ohio when a warrant was issued there so he fled to Missouri and then he was arrested he was charged again so he fled to Illinois then after the Mormon war he was charged with treason I'm having to speed all these up and finally in Illinois he went too far when he arranged to have a mob destroy a printing press that was speaking out against him and he was murdered while trying to escape jail for treason oh and the religion he made up absolutely fraudulent nonsense but we'll get into that during the discussion part of this debate all right thanks for that speedy finish there aren't a great job okay everyone so once again calling out to all of the modern day debate fans in Dallas Texas modern day debate will be going live on stage and tickets can be grabbed right here in the description section also the usual called action stuff guys if you haven't subscribed modern day debate has just hit 127,000 subscribers I missed when it happened it must have just happened I've been watching it all day also hit that like button and feel free to show your support for debate con four in the indigo go down below we are about to enter in a 60 minute open discussion remember to get your super chats in it'll be a first come first serve scenario with those and also try to keep them respectful gentleman the floor is all yours so Kyle I got a couple of questions for you your reference to Jesus and Simon had nothing whatsoever to do with the foundation of Mormonism so I mean that's the first thing that need to be addressed can you show me anything that Jesus ever said to distinguish Mormonism from every other Christian sect you'll want to unmute Kyle I felt like your question there was chopped in half what was your question again can you show me anything Jesus ever said to distinguish Mormonism from every other Christian set okay so what Jesus wrote in his day was talking about the foundation of the church and kind of the way it was built and it was really focused on this revelation and so he you're not seeing him point to later he just said this is the way the church is built this is the foundation upon this rock I will build my church and so as part of claiming that this is Jesus's church built in our day we're going to say that this is the exact same rock that the Jesus built his church on okay so you can't tell me show me anything that Jesus ever said that distinguishes Mormonism from every other cult and okay in that case then where can we read what Jesus wrote where can we read what Jesus wrote yes because I deal with a lot of biblical scholars in in doing the analysis of the Bible and one of the big complaints with Christianity is the fact that Jesus never wrote anything that is something here and that's kind of this is the testimony of other people it's a testimony of Mark Matthew Mark you don't actually have those testimonies are erroneous Matthew Mark Luke and John were not written by Matthew Mark Luke or John according to you no not according to me according to again the biblical scholarship there is some possibility that Luke might have been associated with Luke but the other ones and that's only a possibility that's not a probability but in no case were the other gospels is that even considered that's that's like not even a thing okay so I just have your word for it on this matter right now well I if you studied it at all I mean if you get into the biblical history you'll see why it can't have been you know these documents that turn up like decades later that first of all they don't say that they're written by that person they're talking about everything in third person they're talking about everything not in the not in the terms of you would expect of a witness certainly not giving an eyewitness account they're all talking about third person from somebody that's outside of the story entirely okay regardless of of this whether it's true or not what matters is the words that are written right the content of it and so regardless of who wrote it okay the the principle remains the same the principle being this is the rock we're on that is the foundation but your rock your rock doesn't show up for another 1800 years the rock doesn't show up for another 1800 years revelation so when you when you have the this falsified history about these uh native americans that aren't native americans they're jewish because they we know that native americans are not jewish but you're just just that whole fan fiction doesn't show up until 1800 years later uh that's that the testimony of lihi and nifa and all these other made-up names none of that is the rock that jesus was talking about and every other christian denomination will tell you what rock is and that it's not that i didn't claim that that was the rock the rock is i could have sworn that's what you just said just now no the the rock that i said repeatedly in my opening statement was its firsthand account witnesses okay right and you don't have that i do have that that's what i said i do you know i you can't tell me what miracles i have and haven't experienced you can't tell me how many prayers have been answered when we're talking about a religion that existed before you so your personal experiences mean nothing in this case we're talking about this is a living describe this is a living foundation not a dead one okay but well it doesn't matter if we're still talking about something that pre-existed you and for which we have data to show when it was formed and how it came about and all of that we can have evidence that we can follow subjective impressions are absolutely meaningless particularly to someone like myself who has already experienced you know being a reborn christian being raised as a Mormon and then spending years as a neopagan spiritualist as an as an occultist i know exactly how deceptive faith can be so when you when you use the autodeceptive nature of faith as your sole argument then you literally don't have an argument it's not faith it's knowledge and except that it's not knowledge if it was knowledge then you would be able to demonstrate it you would be able to show what you know and you can't do that it's okay it's about an experience and so it's like whether or not i've ridden in the car right i turn the key the car turns on and so that it's speaking to cars then were you there when cars were invented i didn't i don't have to be there when off okay so why don't you have to be if all of this is about personal experience then why don't you have to be there because i can experience it for myself i can go out into my car you can experience the invention of the automobile in 1888 i can experience the well i can experience the the cars that are existing right now but that doesn't tell you when they were invented now does it what does tell you when cars were invented uh it's not really a matter of when it was invented that i feel like if i ask when they were invented then it becomes a matter of when they were invented so how do you how do what determines when cars were invented what determines when cars are invented well i can study history on the personal experience does your personal experience show that cars were invented before or after radio or do you need data facts that imply you do you rely on those instead of your experience okay we have cars today i can go step into my car i can turn it on that tells me the car works uh and the fact that your car has a radio in it does that mean that the car existed before the radio or did the radio exist before the car and does your personal experience have all to do with either one of these right it's completely irrelevant right so you have your your personal experience is completely irrelevant we have to deal with data and what is actually implied by the facts so you weren't there to personal experience the invention of the car you weren't there to personally experience the formation of the church none of that your personal experience whatever miracles that you've mistaken for you know for the natural occurrences or coincidences that you've mistaken for miracles are irrelevant we're talking about whether Mormonism is true and you haven't said anything at all about Mormonism period your job in this debate is to show things that Mormonism says or believes or holds to be true that are separate from all the other Christian beliefs and i'm going to qualify Mormonism as a subset of Christianity because you did and you're going to show me how and you show the audience how that thing that Mormonism believes it's different from all the other Christian sects that thing is true and you're going to be able to do that without your personal experience because your personal experience means nothing so show me something tangible some show me something we can all look at okay so my objective here is to show that the the whole thing is I am more Christian than all these other ones because yeah because they're all more Christian you knew because you used the same bullshit story that all of them do that they are the true Christians and you are not because you know Catholics are not true Christians Jehovah's Witnesses are not true Christians I don't claim that they're not true Christians and Mormons are not true Christians and Mormons are saying that all these others are not true Christians so your this is why your collective personal experiences mean nothing you have to show the data show me something Mormonism believes that you can show to be true if you're going to say that Mormonism is true then how was first how was Mormonism distinguished from all these other religious groups show that first and then show how we can show the truth of it without personally without having to trust your personal experiences because I already know better than that okay so this is all about that's what Jesus said was the foundation of his church and every other Christian church not Mormonism you're supposed to be defending Mormonism today okay well this is about the church of Jesus Christ that's what we are claiming to be okay so you're going to defend Catholicism Greek Orthodoxy Russian Orthodoxy I'm just defending the church of Jesus Christ which is what we claim to be the church of Jesus Christ and so there are many offshoots of that and I acknowledge that and I guess so so they don't claim that they're not Christian okay they also is orthodoxy and Catholicism are these offshoots of Mormonism it's the church of Jesus Christ okay the Mormonism is uh yes I do know what Mormonism is and if you look it up in the dictionary it's members of the church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints of Latter-day Saints and that that's an important distinction the Latter-day because they didn't exist during the great schism that got us orthodoxy on one side and Catholicism on the other we're prior to that those were a bunch of different those were not the latter days so it's just a matter of time period right at the dawn of Christianity to the rock that Christ that Jesus was supposedly talking about the church that he initially founded was something that existed before the great schism when you still had the Luciferians was a still a Christian cult for example before you had the schism between Catholicism and orthodoxy before you had the the the reformation where you suddenly had Protestantism breaking away from Catholicism and all these other things all these other Christian groups that mostly started around the 19th century or or in the 19th century where your religion did too you're not talking about you're not defending Jesus the purpose of this debate for you is to show that the church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is true because the church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints says very different things than all the other Christian sects and you in this debate are supposed to show that that's true do you know what Mormonism says that's different than other Christian sects yeah i can say a lot of things but the church of Jesus Christ can't be true if the church of Jesus Christ isn't true so you're trying to separate you're trying to separate the two yeah you can stop with half the sentence the church of Jesus Christ can't be true we can stop with that it's the same thing it's just a matter of time period the church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints can't be true if the former church wasn't yeah yeah the former church wasn't true either and we can get there but i want to take baby steps let's crush Mormonism first before we squash Christianity and then we can move on to theism in general Christianity yeah you're trying to separate the two but you can't Christianity is a parent category would you believe that are are are sharks a subset of goldfish no both of them are a subset of fish parent category that includes both sharks and goldfish right okay so you can Mormonism category is a good term for it Mormonism we have foundation subset of Christianity subs and Christianity is a subset of theism let's start with the thing that you were here to defend Mormonism is because the this debate topic was not is Christianity true this debate topic was was Mormonism true well i'm not a Mormon so that's you're not a Mormon i'm a i'm a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints are you're not a Mormon you're the church we don't use a term Mormon is there another word but wait i was baptized in the church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints you know what they're called Mormons by you know what their holy book is called by who the book of Mormon you know you know who you know who calls them Mormons my entire family who are Mormon that's who calls them Mormons they call themselves Mormon we specifically my mother we are not working the temple uh-huh she knows what the fuck a Mormon is that we we specifically come out and say we are not Mormons that's no you and this is a new trend but it didn't know it wasn't always that way i grew up with this church they didn't have a problem calling themselves Mormons until like less than 10 years ago and then that didn't last long somebody wanted to create a controversy over it and then people got over it and you guys are Mormons again big damn deal the point is that's totally BS the point is you were supposed to defend the church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints the people who call themselves Mormon the people everybody else calls Mormon the people with the holy book called the book of Mormon you're supposed to defend that separate from all other Christian sets and then when we've done with that then if you like then we can look to Christianity and then theism and then supernaturalism in general yeah i don't distinguish a difference between the two they are one and the same okay so you're you're trying really mallards from ducks you're trying really hard to tear them apart but they are one and the same and that is my entire opening statement so you don't think that there's that they are one and the same between a mallard and a muskovi or a wood duck they're all exactly the same thing they're all mallard they're all they're all ducks but they're all so there's so is there a difference between a mallard and a muskovi or a wood duck or any of the or a peaking duck or any of these others a christian is just someone who believes in jesus okay were you aware that the header for the debate that we were invited to did did they were they forthcoming with you did they tell you what the debate topic was yes did they throw the word Mormonism in there uh yes ah so now you're pretending you don't know what Mormonism is but you agreed to do a debate where you defend Mormonism well i told them repeatedly that i remember the belief system when you don't even know what the belief system is i am very much aware of what the what my belief system is and so it is your belief system and you are in fact a Mormon very good i'm glad we got through the bullshit arcade and we got to this point where we should have been five minutes ago so back to square one show me something that Mormons that the church of jesus christ of latter day saints says the Mormons says that is different than Catholicism different than the Jehovah's Witnesses different from the seventh day Adventists different from orthodoxy and so on what is it that Mormonism believes that's different from all these others and then show how that is true well i if you listen to my opening statement it's all about the foundation and yeah i realized you didn't have a foundation and the sad thing is is you didn't realize that you didn't have one the upon this rock i will build my church that is a foundation of modern day revelation oh i do know what i'm talking you don't you don't know what the we don't know what the rock is you don't know what the foundation is now you're pretending you don't know what Mormonism is or alternatively pretending you don't know what Mormonism when it's convenient for you then you remember what Mormonism is but you still can't defend it can you so tell me something that Mormons believe that the church of Jesus Christ of latter day saints believes that is different than all the other Christian sects show me that first and then show me how we know that that is true if you can't do both of those things just concede defeat now and we can change the topic if you like we can debate about something else well this is all about establishing that this is the same church as it was back then except that it isn't is it it is it's got the same foundation where is Nephi and Lehi and the submarines and all of that that's not mentioned it doesn't need to be mentioned over there okay well if it if you're talking about if you're talking about a religion that is based on these documents that are not mentioned anywhere then you can't say that it's the same church now can you okay so i can have my own personal experiences and i can write about my personal experiences that personal experiences is the foundation i just mentioned okay then you don't you don't have a foundation that i have lots of personal experiences i don't know but no foundation the personal experiences is the foundation then you don't have a foundation and what you're supposed to be doing is you're supposed to be defending is Mormonism true not as christianity true is Mormonism true so there's a specific subset that you're going to focus on that you're not going to argue whether christianity is true so it doesn't matter what you think the rock is you're wrong but it doesn't matter what you think it is you're arguing for Mormonism now you and i can both list things that Mormons believe that are different than what all Christians believe and that Jesus never mentioned the notion of Jesus Christ of Lottery Saints can't be true unless christianity itself is true that is yeah right but christianity here's here's an important thing christianity for the purpose of this logical discussion it is logically possible that christianity could be true and Mormonism still be false you understand what that means well it's so long as it's the same doctrine then is it that doesn't work so the the the Jehovah's Witnesses are they the true religion well i don't see them building on the same kind of foundation aren't they don't they declare the same rock you do well they believe in Jesus but i don't see them talking that's so what you're saying is the Jehovah's Witnesses are the true faith i did not see that are you an equally adept at defending Jehovah if they had called you and to debate me on is Jehovah's Witness the true christian church would you be able to do that today okay it's not that it's totally different that's a yes or no question if if i am if i yeah i wouldn't debate you on that why because i don't believe that that that okay so you do it it's got many truths to it okay so you accept many truths to it but it's not a hundred percent true you have the elements of it that logically christianity could be true but that does not mean that orthodoxy is the true christian church or the catholicism is the true christian church or the southern baptists or the seventh day adventists or any of the others it doesn't mean that any of the subsets are necessarily the true christian church at best at best where they differ from each other would be what would you call that where the things that Jehovah's Witnesses believe that no other christians believe those would be false then right okay so here's my my my biggest remember how in my opening statement in my opening statement please let me talk all right in my opening statement i i mentioned the parable of the ten virgins right there are the there were those who had the oil who had their own personal experiences that was able to sustain them and then there are those who lived on borrowed light okay who lacked the personal experiences to sustain them they didn't have that foundation okay it was the foundation of sand you're just kind of going off of secondhand accounts and so those who had that personal experiences they are the ones that said did uh jesus welcomed in and those who did not i know you not kind of an experience and so that's the the real question right there is which one is founded on those kind of personal experiences but none of them are founded on personal experiences they're all founded on doctrine which is not personal experiences these are well i've i've studied a long time with the Jehovah's Witnesses yeah and uh they're not ones who are continually urging me to to pray and ask and find out for myself that uh that it's not how their church works but that's like the very first thing we teach people to do is pray and ask and find out for yourself and make and keep commitments uh as jesus said whosoever do with what i say they shall know of my doctrine okay they shall they shall be the ones who gain their personal experiences uh yeah so it's all about making and keeping commitments and actually doing things and then it's by doing things that we're able to to learn for ourselves and yeah so you're you're telling me then that that Mormonism is no different than Roman Catholicism or Russian Orthodoxy no that's not that's not what i said at all you said you said they're all Christian all you have to do to be Christian is to be is to believe you believe in Jesus and you will not will not show what Mormonism believes as distinguished from all these other Christian sects you just said well Christianity has to be true if Mormonism is true and and that would be correct yeah if if Mormonism was true it's not but if Mormonism was true that would depend on Christianity being true but Christianity can be true and Russian Orthodoxy and Jehovah's Witnesses and Catholicism and Southern Baptist all be wrong they could all be wrong all right so i'll point you right back to the the parable of the 10 virgins here there were five that are wise and five that are foolish okay they were all Christians okay all of all 10 of them were Christians they were people who are waiting for Jesus to come right and so that can describe the many different sects out there they're all waiting for Jesus to come they all believe in Jesus uh but then in the end Jesus acknowledges the ones who have had personal experiences with them and yeah i know you're not of course all these people believe that they have and there's Hindus there's Hindus who believe that they've had personal experience of Jesus that Krishna reappeared in the form of Jesus and that Jesus and Krishna are in fact the same person does that make Bhakti Hinduism true or did they really have personal experiences or do you I well they really have personal experiences with Lord Krishna and they say that Christians are deceived by believing in Jesus when the true form is actually Krishna uh it sounds kind of like Krishna is the deceiver here pretending to be someone I wonder why Krishna would be deceiver if we have a bunch of deceivers here how do we weed them out let's say we've we've got we've got the the barren body of Christianity and then we have all these different sects all the subsets and you have chosen to defend one of them you can't defend Catholicism you won't defend Catholicism will you well I am defending Catholicism by defending Jesus can you debate if they had told you to debate me against is Catholicism true would you be able to do that I could tell you that that parts of Catholicism are are true and that's Jesus parts of Mormonism are true well I'm focusing on uh it's very different here I can talk to why um because it's all okay if I were to take one bite of a pizza or eat a whole pizza and so I can talk about uh yeah and that's kind of it is am I talking about the entire pizza or am I just talking about just a portion of it and so I can well let me help you out about the whole talking about a portion of it you're not talking about the entire pizza you're not you're talking about a portion of it the portion called Mormonism now what is Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints what is it that's different about the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints that is different from all the other sects what what is it they believe that no other Christian sect believes give me an idea okay well I believe that we're you've got the entire foundation here we've got the whole pizza and not just parts of it okay but does that so is there somewhere in the in the Book of Mormon I already know better than this but is there somewhere in the Book of Mormon that says that every Christian sect is equally 100 true uh does it say well okay Christianity is believing in Jesus okay and so Jesus is 100 true and so if anyone believes in Jesus they are 100 right well I'm sorry that Jesus is not 100 true but we will get there Jesus is not truth at all but we can get there we have to start baby steps now you came on to discuss Mormonism which is which is the Church of Jesus Christ in the latter days which is not seven-day Adventism which is not Russian Orthodoxy it's not Greek Orthodoxy it's not Roman Catholicism it's not it's not Lutherans Lutheranism it's not Methodism so you have all these different denominations you've chosen to defend one of them show me the one that you're here to defend show me how they're different from all the other Christian sects and then show me how Mormonism is you remember what the topic of the debate is uh huh recite it for me what's the topic of the debate well I keep telling to say Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints but they always shorten it to Mormonism okay so regardless are you telling me that the what is the topic to phrase it however you think it should be what is the topic of the debate today is the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints true okay so what is it that the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints believes that distinguishes that that sect from every other Christian faith what distinguishes us oh we uh a big thing about this is going to be uh the restoration itself the apostasy itself I don't know how many other churches out there believe in the great apostasy that's a huge topic right there I think all of them because that's that was like that's a pre-christian concept so that doesn't all of them I haven't really heard it yeah yeah I haven't really gone around do you really have the authority to speak on behalf of all of them have you really studied every single different denominational sect out there the basis what you're talking about when you're quoting Jesus yeah Jesus was talking about the great apostasy when there many would you know false prophets would come in my name and that sort of thing yeah so if Jesus said that in every other cult is based on what he said then every other cult believes that same thing but Mormons believe something very different something that Jesus never said a few things that Jesus never said and the these are the things that distinguish Mormonism the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints from every other Christian faith so can you describe something and I know you can you can do it describe something that Mormons believe that no other Christian faith believes well we believe in our divine potential we we believe and then no other Christian we are the children of our heavenly Father every other Christian sect believes in that I said to find the stuff find me a thing that Mormons believe it's different and you and you fail to do that let me help you out here and I know the audience is just they're just falling over themselves to answer this question that you refuse to answer so in Mormonism I was raised I didn't believe all of this because my brain worked but my family taught me to believe that if you're you're a good and righteous person and you get married in the temple to a good and right person and you live saintly lives and all of this that when you die ultimately you get something equivalent to your own planet no we don't believe that what's that we don't believe that I'm a flat earther yeah yeah I was just I was just gonna ask you how do you and God is supposed to live on the planet colob he doesn't live on the planet so how does that work when you don't believe in like reality at all you don't believe there's you know you don't believe that planets are planets yeah well I think it's really strong uh that Joseph Smith repeated the entire creation account like additional times re-emphasizing the the significance of it talking about this firmament the yeah that covers the entire earth yeah it's a solid structure it's a dome or solid structure that I very strongly believe in now there's evidence for that because my mother Mormon refused to believe that there were flat earthers yeah my mother refused to believe that there were flat earth Mormons because Mormons were too wise to believe that the earth was flat because they knew the truth of God and when I told her yesterday that I would be debating a flat earth Mormon she was deeply ashamed yeah she's so sorry that people like you exist and that make her look ridiculous uh okay all you've got so is there something you would recognize that Mormons believe that it's not good because I let me let me back up a little bit when I was 14 my mother criticized me for making fun of the Mormon church and she said that I don't really know what I'm talking about and so if I'm just if I'm dissing something that I don't understand what it is that makes me a hypocrite and I said you know what you're right if I'm criticizing something I don't even know about that is hypocrisy so I submit call on your Mormon missionaries so she brought them all over I had four other kids called elders because that makes sense but I mean I have all these people who are barely older than me and they're teaching me what Mormons believe and they taught me a bunch of stuff this is these are people these are missionaries elders from the Mormon church who told me that God has a body okay and I remember asking God exists everywhere and every when and in every dimension he exists in every planet he exists everywhere across the universe and yet he has lungs and his arms extend this far and he has nipples for some reason and there was a bunch of other things that came there was a whole lot of stupid things that that were brought up by these ones and one of them was that if you live this good and saintly life then you get to be like unto God in that you get your own realm that you get to be the God of and you're saying that the Mormon missionaries that came and taught me that you can look this up objectively everywhere but you're telling me that that's not true despite the fact we can look it up and verify it anywhere when did I say that wasn't true I just said I just I said we don't believe I don't believe in any kind of other planets out there yeah you don't that we that God lives on another planet you don't you personally don't but I know right there in the bible very very well we believe in the bible I know a whole lot of people very very well who believe in the bible and to believe in other planets yeah yeah and because they believe in the book of Mormon they believe in other planets okay sorry I I misspoke okay I still believe that planets like Jupiter exist and stuff like that though my understanding of them is different than a lot of other peoples out there but you don't have an understanding of it that's how it's different so give me something that Mormons believe that's different from all the other face so we can separate what Mormonism is and then show me how that's true that's your purpose of the debate it's so very simple you can either do that or simply concede defeat and we'll change the topic okay so bible talks about baptisms for the dead who else is practicing baptisms for the dead I don't know who else is practicing okay there's one thing that wasn't part of the original doctrine it's right there in the bible baptisms for the dead okay so you wanted one thing that really separates us and I'm saying well they're teaching us right here in the bible and this is something that we believe in you're saying that the doctrine that we get our own realm to become like gods over that none of that is true that's not what I said I said okay well we will you state whether that is true okay Jesus said ye are gods children of the most high okay and so that is something that we yeah we when Jesus said it we believe him and so a lot of other people out there uh say no that's not what it meant that's what it says but not what he means and okay kind of get into all this and yeah but that's one unique thing about us is we take him on his word okay so let's assume he said that at least we've got something to to go and we finally can take a first step we're only wow we're an hour into this before we can take the first step that's it so when when Jesus says that we are gods what does it mean to be a god what is a god what is a god i'd call this a a divine being and what is a divine being someone who is really righteous and glorified i can kind of describe righteousness someone who uh isn't constantly sinning i guess you could you could say that okay that's the definition of very i don't know how to i don't know where to go with that i mean we need something better so with a god you can't just say a divine being because divine being means god god means divine being they mean the same thing and somebody who isn't sinning well i think all right okay so we can point out the uh the greeks who believed in all kinds of different gods that were very malicious and terrible and evil and like there there were evil gods right yeah like here so yeah but divine is not evil okay divine is i'm sorry i thought isaia 45 5 6 and 7 showed that god created evil that he brings good that he brings evil that he causes all all calamity and there is none else there's only him doing all these things do you not do you believe the bible or do you not i don't believe the god allows evil to happen so we can have our agency so god brings calamity and so god causes evil according to god's own word in isaia do you believe it or not that god causes calamity well and evil he created evil that he brings both good and evil and there is none else there's only him he's responsible for every good thing that happens every evil thing that happens he does both he's responsible for all of it i okay i'd i'd have to like pull this up myself and kind of read it and i'd like to look at the Hebrew on it so that's the scripture i haven't fully studied it really isaia 45 really okay you asked me i that's yeah all right i thought when you said you believed the bible i thought you'd read it oh shouldn't have made that assumption okay so there's the bible's a really big book and yeah it takes a long time to pull out the magnifying glass over every single little scripture and yeah i've learned new things about the bible every day it's a continual journey but that doesn't erase any of the experiences i've had to testify that we don't need to erase your personal experiences they're irrelevant okay well that's the foundation that i stand upon that is the rock upon which i don't have a foundation you all you've got is subjective impressions you don't have your data at all i've got lots of you're gonna show us that you're gonna debate whether this thing is true and you have nothing to show that it is true you have that you believe it and that doesn't matter because i believe that it's false and there's a whole lot of other people who believe that it's false there's a whole lot of people who believe that their religion is true and they outweigh you there's too many of them it sounds like you're making an unpopular argument there what are we not we're not there's there's too many out there if two people claim to have divine inspiration at for mutually exclusive absolute truths at least one of them is wrong both of them can be if you have 12 people who all claim to have personal revelation from god that shows that theirs is the one true faith it's absolutely true and everybody else is deceived oh again logically only one of them even can be true and the probability is that they're all and the only way to find out for yourself is through your own personal experiences okay so everybody found out from their own personal experience that their different religious denominations were the one true christian faith and so you're saying the same thing so you can't show anything that Mormons believe that is true as separate or distinguished from every other christian faith okay i just talked about that we focus on the foundation and that's going to be a huge thing but i greatly disagree yeah i know because you don't understand you don't you don't realize your subjective impressions for the reasons i just explained don't qualify as data everybody you're kind of creating this big hypothetical you have a hundred different denominations of different religions everybody claims to have absolute truth everyone has personal experiences they had a revelation from god they have a revelation of god through scripture to show that their subset of Lutheranism is the one true faith you don't speak on no it's Shia Islam and the other one says no it's Sunni Islam no it's Bhakti Hindu no it's Brahmin Hindu and all of these people are claiming absolute truth from divine revelation from a personal personal experience from a personal god all of them are making the same claim you are you're you have no authority to say that are you are they all true you have no authority to say that you don't speak on behalf of all these different people i don't need authority you there's no polling okay you've never there's no poll like gone out and done that you're you're speaking on behalf of there's no poll it's all over the place yes people give their personal testimony all that time okay you're you're you're claiming to speak on behalf of everyone when you i'm not claiming to go beyond that anyone's you can google it h christinus you charlotte made a very similar statement on on on uh what what the fuck it was it was it not on newsnet where he was talking about had the absolute truth of the bhakti hindu faith he made the same claims that you are i read another testimony in 1981 from a buddhist girl in thailand who said that her entire life turned around the moment she accepted buddha into her life the absolute truth they claim is the same kind of thing that you're claiming they're claiming mutually exclusive conclusions for entirely different religions i know a guy who lives two miles from me who met baste he worships her because she appeared in his house physically manifest visible tangible audible and made him to be her disciple now when a topless woman with a cat's head appears in your house and tells you worship me you know you do especially who already have a cat think about cats so he met his god and several i know that the bhakti commonly have met their gods too and it's usually christina from my personal experience it's usually christina because in america that's that that's unfortunately in india you wouldn't see many of that but in the united states you do and indians get upset about that they they bhakti are overly represented at your ice con that do we get the christina people but anyway they've met their god they've seen him they've heard him speak they have a personal relationship with him they have a revelation where he where he has spoken to them directly or through the scripture revelation through scripture do they teach that you can have similar experiences for yourself or absolutely or do they entirely expect you just to trust them on the matter public statements public statements from from the beetles of all people from john lennon and george harrison making the same claims that you are for the verifiable truth of christina so your personal experiences matter not it's your word against all those other people who contradict you for different gods so you're just one other person say my god is the real one no my god is the real one no my god is the real one and what is the reason all of you get we all have personal experiences that contradict everybody else's personal experience so you ain't got shit if you're going to defend Mormonism or any other faith whether it's christian or hindu or islam or whatever you need more than your personal experience your personal experience doesn't matter whether i saw it for myself or didn't that does matter and yeah that's not in a debate it doesn't you have to show reasons reasons well i presented many reasons have to be factual do you know what a fact is yes i'm aware of a fact it's a truth it is a truth what is a fact a truth all right a fact is a point of objectively verifiable data uh now we call it truth if we make the statement that it happens to be true right we we've correctly expressed an observation mm-hmm i often say that the truth is what the facts are because i don't want people claiming things to be truth that they can't show the truth of it so it has to be something we can show the verifiable fact you show that it's a fact then you get to call it a truth you don't get to call it a truth until then which you already did did okay so i can't tell you that i launched today you already claimed that jesus was the truth even though you couldn't show that there was any fact behind it okay so i can't tell you that i launched today and call that a truth i experienced it i yeah is it a contested point well it's a fact right i i launched it that's a fact okay that i can take as a trivial matter it doesn't matter what your your word is on something trivial it really doesn't but then we get into uh sagan's dilemma when he says that you know positive claims require positive evidence and extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence the more outrageous and preposterous your claim the more compelling your evidence the more sound and compelling and complete your evidence has to be mm-hmm so you make a super you make a uh an extraordinary claim have profound evidence to back it up yeah and so that's what we that's what we well that's what we really do that's an admission but that's not what you've done you that's okay do that for me if that's what you're talking like do that for me show me show me the profound evidence first let's focus on something that mormons believe that's separate from every other christian faith show me that give me give me how does mormon doctrine differ from other christian faith differs by what we do and so jesus said um is by doing things that's where you know things by experiencing these things and so i encourage other people like mormon doctrine gives us an expression of belief so what's going to happen in the afterlife and and other aspects of of history and origin and all the there there are things that you are supposed to believe that you're required to believe you know what a doctrine is a body of beliefs mm-hmm so give me the body of beliefs for mormonism and then show me how that is true and the body of beliefs for mormonism that's not shared in common with every other christian denomination give me something that is specifically mormon because you're here to defend whether mormonism is true give me that and and jesus himself is a humongous like you're trying to take jesus out of the church of jesus christ the vodity saints it doesn't work that way it does when we're talking about mormonism because you understand the concession i made that it is logically possible for christianity to be true and mormonism to be false so long as christianity is a belief in jesus christ yeah that it still stands and so that's going to embrace the seventh day adventists are the true faith so long as they believe in jesus christ that is a true faith that's all you need so it doesn't matter if you believe that dancing is a sin or if you believe that dancing is permitted it doesn't matter how many contradictions there are it doesn't matter if your clergy is allowed to have sex with what is allowed to be married or if they're required to be celibate or if they're women have to have their hair covered or if women are allowed to wear pants or if they're forced to wear dresses if they have to dress like from the 1800s it doesn't matter what all the other rules are that every other christian denomination lays out they're all equally true even one they can't predict each other okay the okay there are different offshoots again but the foundation right there the the start okay is jesus the christ okay and that's the core principle that's the core principle that the the thing that you believe which is false by the way do jesus is not the christ but let's pretend for a moment that he is does that mean that that all of these fundamentalists or all these different sacks are all equally absolutely true that part of it okay that part of it so it's not absolutely true so there's some things that are only partially true it seems like you and i are defining things differently here we have to think maybe i'm trying to help you out here as much as i can the audience is really upset at this point i mean well they always are it's like it's like it's like that movie you know where you have to explain to the guy how to you know they're like two guys writing on writing the range they're doing like the modern cowboy thing and then one of one guy is trying to explain to the other one how to set the timer on the vcr and then the other one we say shut up stop trying to explain it to this guy the cows can program a vcr by now but he still can't that's where i feel i am with you i'm looking for you to come up with something they give me a doctrine how doctrine of Mormonism is distinguished from all Christianity and then show me how that is true what i got is that Mormonism is exactly the same as every other Christian faith and it's true because you believe it and that's it and that's all and nothing else okay well we talked about several different principles and yeah it's just going right back to the bible the foundation is Jesus which is not the foundation of Mormonism that's yeah i greatly disagree and so it's like i'm saying something and then you're talking about Joseph Smith in the 19th century based on documents that he claimed to have found so that's where Mormonism begins and it's based on the doctrine he wrote okay his experience was the thing okay that that was his foundation was his his experience where he saw god the father and the son jesus christ and that experience was all right let's go with that then since christianity largely mostly i mean there are unitarian christians i like you was raised as a binitarian christian but there are mostly there are trinitarian christians who seem oblivious to the idea that there is a Yahweh that there is a jahoba they think that Jesus is god the father and this is a weird thought you know some biblical scholars are a little upset that why would people think that Jesus is his own father but there's a lot of christians who believe that that they're that it's all a triune being and they ignore where in the bible where god speaks while jesus is in the room god says hey this is my son in whom i am very proud and then the holy ghost leads off jesus to someplace he didn't know no these people think that the holy spirit and jahoba and jesus all the same person that they're all equally the same entity that they're not a triune godhead like the trimerity of hinduism there's something else they're the same essence so that jesus now knows everything god knows even though jesus said he didn't know everything god knows but there's still a bunch of trinitarian christians who believe that jesus is god and you're saying that jesus and god can stand side by side we believe in god the eternal father and in his son jesus christ and in the holy ghost so a lot of christians will tell me regardless of what it says in exodus about the 70 elders who got to see jesus in the flesh or excuse me they've got to see god in the flesh not jesus that regardless of all these passages where people like abraham was able to recognize god as one of the three men knocking on his door all of that they just dismiss all of that and say that god doesn't have a body you can't see god you see jesus but now when mormons say that you know jesus smith saw jesus and god standing side by side you have other christians saying that that's impossible okay would that be the is it would you say that that's a difference between mormon doctrine and other christian doctrine that we have different beliefs about jesus yeah okay so you're gonna defend the different belief that you have as a mormon from other christian denominations so give me an example and we've finally caught on i think give me an example of where doctrine for mormons differs from that of of all the other christian doctrine what makes mormon as a unique as a christian faith sounds like you want me to read the articles of faith here articles of faith however you want to interpret that can you show me somebody of beliefs that mormonism hold that mormonism holds to or the church of light jesus Christ of latter-day saints hold to that no other christian faith does something that is uniquely mormon uh well we've talked about several things now we talked about jesus saying ye are gods children of the most high right that's that's saying that we are the same species okay we're the same species divine what a god is i did define what a god is no you said a god is a divine being that's a tautology that means the same thing it's not the same thing okay then what is a god okay uh i described a righteous being i also can describe me good well okay well i believe that we are all gods okay and so it doesn't matter what you believe okay well you just ask me what i believe use words the word should have meaning right you just ask me what i believed okay jesus says you are all gods what does that mean it means you aren't okay you are a god i'm jehovah okay it says you are a god okay one of god's children i'm a god god's plural okay my odin because i i kind of favor odin you are are on rod we look similar in the eyes i hear you are are on rock okay you are a god okay and what does it mean to me a god okay what does it mean to be a god what does it mean to be a god yeah because in one in in greek that's a good question i think mythology was that jupiter was upset that prometheus gave the the forbidden knowledge to man because if men knew how to build fire then man would be like unto the god so it was knowledge of fire that made man into gods and in genesis three jehovah gets upset that men know right from wrong and that knowledge is what makes men like unto gods but in neither case does it explain what a god is it is a god just anybody who knows how to make fire and who can tell right from wrong uh okay the bible often describes uh use the term Elohim okay and that often gets translated to god and uh that often means great leader someone who is a leader uh okay so anybody who's a great leader is a god but everybody's a god everybody's by definition yes yes absolutely so yep i i i have a dog right here is he a god i don't believe so it doesn't match the description what's the description okay you are children of god okay that talking about a species okay because he's a different species how am i a child of god okay and so you have a body you've got yeah you've got a body okay but you are made in the image of god your dog isn't made in the image of i'm not in the image of you okay but you are made in the image you are made in the image of your father okay and so yes we are my father remarkably like me but but with a bro cream pompadour okay instead of yeah we are brothers and so children can have the same kind of uh qualities a goddess god it's just any white guy no not at all okay um pre 1978 when i had when i met with these missionaries when i was 14 i was told in 1977 in fact that that black people could not get into the church because what was it the mark of the curse of cane yeah that's one of the false traditions of men that false traditions of men that was written into the Mormon doctrine so you're now admitting that Mormon doctrine includes false traditions of men absolutely okay i think this debate is over then you you've conceded Mormonism is not true you you you hold false traditions of men there is nothing that you could show that is what do you when you can't distinguish anything from Mormonism from Christianity then you've got nothing to work with when you can distinguish one thing different from christian from the rest of the body of christianity you immediately realize that it's false traditions of men that's all we've got well it's an ongoing restoration it's kind of yeah didn't it funny how the Jehovah's Witnesses and the Seventh Day Adventists both use the same argument they both claim and Catholicism does too and so does orthodoxy by the way they all complain they all claim to be the real original faith and that everybody else has deviated from that and that they're all trying to get back to the original true way the Jehovah's Witnesses which came about shortly but run run about the time that the Mormons did the Jehovah's Witnesses came around and then they're trying to say that they're going back to the original true way they're all making the same claim that you are can you show me that anything of any of it is true oh that's what i was trying to tell you about from the very beginning about building on the foundation go and do these things and as you do these things you will personal subjective impressions we want you to have your own personal experiences yeah in order to do in order for you to have your own personal experiences for you to witness these things for yourself been there done that i was a reborn christian i was a neopagan spiritualist for years i've i've run the gamut i've been on your course i've i'm no longer on that wheel i figured out how autodeceptive faith is i won't have anything to do with it okay well faith is meant to be temporary it's it's meant to to to grow and turn into knowledge and that was kind of one of because they can't turn into knowledge no they're built in totally different things faith is believing things that are not evidently true and knowledge is when you can demonstrate that there is a truth to the things that you believe so they're faith is believing in something for which that hasn't been proven to you yet and so right yeah believing things that are not evidently true and believing it anyway it doesn't mean it's it's not true okay i can have i said not evidently true so it's it's something you don't i would believe something if i'm compelled to because even if i don't want to believe it there's so much evidence that maybe i don't want to believe that my wife is cheating on me maybe i want to believe that she's sincere and everything but you know so much evidence is built up you know the the credit card receipts for the motel room all of these other things you know and eventually i got to say you know what i don't want to believe this but the evidence is compelling i i'm i'm forced to accept that this is the thing that's happened that's that's not a faith belief that's that's an evidence belief but a faith belief is when you don't have any evidence to support it at all but you believe it anyway and you maintain that belief despite all evidence to the contrary you're gonna believe it regardless because you want it that's that's not what we teach we say if it doesn't turn into knowledge to abandon it that's that's if you're familiar with the book of Mormon and you're also flat earther and you believe that stars are a hoax so what you're telling me now disproves what you just said if anything the the flatter the fact that the earth is flat is not flat and we can prove that immediately i greatly disagree okay i know that you greatly disagree but you're welcome to be wrong that you've built a life out of being wrong where you think that if you believe something hard enough it becomes true but it doesn't and we can prove that as well i can disprove your flat earth in a moment it's easy to do we can see too far before this debate switches gears and becomes a flat earth debate uh that's our 60 minute yeah discussion already i would love i would love to come back and talk to you about the flat earth that's a yeah i've been itching for a lot of debate that debate in a moment well right now the uh the chat is got some great support for both of you um they're all real happy the energy here is fantastic it's great before we get into the super chats i'll give everyone a chance to get some more super chats in i will remind you all once again if you're in the dallas area on november fourth and fifth the bait con four is going live on stage you can get your tickets in the link in the description below you can meet james in person you can meet ryan in person you can meet arn raw in person and all of your other you hate that guy i have a feeling arn um there's a few people who bought tickets just for you i have no doubt in my mind um what i had no doubt in my mind what's that that everybody in my family who identifies as mormon would listen to kyle and say we don't believe that everyone of them you can say that all right well i'm gonna keep going with anybody watching this video anybody watching this video after it's aired you know share it with the mormons that you know and see and just comment whether they agree with kyle whether if they are mormon do they agree with kyle or would they say that no mormons believe differently than kyle says hey it's right there in the in the bible and that's what i point you to doesn't matter because with that guys in general and mormons specifically will ignore what's in the bible when it's inconvenient i have some more announcements real quick we'll get into some super chats super fast uh don't forget to hit that like button at some point i missed it but we hit 127 thousand subscribers uh considering we hit 126 just a few days ago uh that's awesome so i want to thank anyone who hit that subscribe button today uh anyone who hasn't hit it yet it's it's it's right there it's not hard just reach over click it and while you're over there uh click that light button all right uh we're going to get into the super chats now so uh we still have time for those and i got room for lots more so don't be shy the first question is for both uh i assume arne can hear me so i'll read it uh and kyle you can answer first okay if someone measures a fever of 107 or or over with their child should they kneel and pray or call 911 so go ahead can you answer instantly pray yeah yeah put him in a nice bath while calling 911 ice bath first praying won't do anything okay well i've got firsthand experience against that so and i've got data that contradicts you and my data outweighs your first hand experience oh i disagree that's you're you're relying on second hand you want to but you're still wrong okay that's you've got second hand experiences that's your data i have first hand experiences and data that both contradict you and you're still wrong okay okay by the way that was from ozentax for five dollars now i've got taz straighter for twenty dollars uh this one's for kyle how could the book of john be written by john the letter j did not exist at the time jesus supposedly existed also do you actually believe jesus happened across disciples with latin names all right so the bible wasn't originally written in english and and when it got translated into english a lot of those names also got kind of turned into words that we can pronounce and they were changed and so yeah just like with uh we we see this frequently uh going from one language to another and so if you were to read the the spanish bible okay it's going to describe the book of james as santiago that that's james and spanish santiago which sounds completely different than our english james okay good answer thank you sir we've got another one here from ozentax for five dollars uh not really directed at anyone however i believe it might be kyle um if you are going to base your entire worldview based on some supposedly historical source why would you study the historicity of that foundation well it's kind of what we go into testing and so we want to ask questions about it and ask and so we we study these these things and we we go out and pray about these things and and try to find our personal experiences which don't matter because what you've got is you make a claim in the most way you make a claim that jewish people are actually the descendants of or excuse me that native americans are actually the descendants of jewish people that's a it's a big it's a claim that is a lot bigger uh than we claim it to be okay some is not how would you test that some is not all how would you test that how do i test that well a lot of different people out there go out and do archaeological work and look for things and we are making all kinds of discoveries all the time you don't have anything that supports that claim uh i don't think you i i have a lot of things that support that claim no you don't uh did you see a video that i produced with your name in it from about a month ago called show your evidence kyle no i did not you were in a debate with brice blanket angel where you made the claim that there was archaeological evidence of north american cities native american cities of seven million people there is no such data you made the claim that it exists okay we haven't found you to produce the evidence for that and because all you have is personal experience then you don't have that data you said it was out there you just said you've got archaeological archaeological claims all the time that support you but no you don't you can't show that claim for example you saw my example of putting the blood on the doorframe right you know that support a north american native american city of seven million people right okay we haven't discovered every single native american thing there's continued research seven million people okay yeah there's a lot of you realize that we've found cities of much much much smaller right you've been to have you been to chitzenitza i have not been to chitzenitza it's a tiny little city comparatively and how much of the native american settlements have been discovered if we can find chitzenitza in a jungle where things are not preserved very well then certainly in north america which is not a natural rainforest situation then we ought to be able to find these cities seven million people you said you claimed the data was out there it is not out there okay another way you would test for it is through genetics again Mormons come up but kiss nothing nothing ever supports the Mormon position there is no jewish heredity in any native american tribe period none that's uh you're speaking on behalf of everyone when you have no authority to speak on i don't have i don't need a you haven't gone out and specifically tested every single authority the authority is not the issue you have no experience you you're you're just saying science now we're talking to science now there are no authorities that you have not verified for yourself you're just making stuff up and saying this is so we have verified you have not personally verified this yes i have no need to yell there is not any let me talk yes i have verified this there is not any there is not any jewish heredity in any genetic test ever performed in native america ever know there is that that's a really really big phrase that would require you to go out individually genetically test every single native american ever in the entire united states but all i have to i didn't have to say that i all i had to say is that there's no jewish heredity found in any native american people that any of the that the test you've never tested no one has ever tested that have never supported jewish immigration never okay your claim is you're making a claim you're making claims that are too big for your own mouth you said all right all right i think we're gonna we're gonna move on from this point here is to is to do what i just said you haven't done that you're pretending that i haven't done that yeah i have your claim is too big for your mouth no it is a gentleman uh please the fact that that data has never been found let him moderately we have we have a situation here we're uh we're just pushing back and forth um yeah this guy's making claims he can't back up and he's pretending as if i'm the one you said there was archaeological evidence of a city in north america native american pre-columbian city of seven million people no there is not if there was you'd be able to point to the study that verified that and i would already know about it and you have no direct quote here okay and this is what does this have to do with the question again you just said that you can you can test it you're right but you lied you're not testing i didn't lie i didn't lie you did you said there's you said there's archaeological evidence of a north american native american pre-columbian city of seven million people no there is that is not a direct quote whatsoever okay please don't moderate my video everybody can watch if the video is titled uh what was that you can mute him okay the video is titled is Mormonism true um yeah well just i made was called show your evidence kyle he made a claim evidence he can't back up maybe we can uh kyle can go do some homework on on your video and we'll have you both back and we'll discuss this further because we don't need to both be back if he was able to produce the evidence then i wouldn't have anything to say about it and i would also concede publicly that he produced that evidence there i can show you all kinds of different evidence but you just deny it as being evidence but such as other blood on the door on my side of the fence would say hey this guy produced evidence he's got a point you need to concede that that's what would end up happening yeah i'm not convinced i do that so our next super chat but that's that is what would happen because that's not a honest people are aren't we're just gonna we're just gonna get going to some more now because uh if we stay here too long uh what are we here all night so sorry um so i got out of super chat here from disciple day for two dollars uh they say how about just defend the book of Mormon okay well defending the book of Mormon is defending Jesus is yeah okay Jesus never said anything about horses in the new world he never said that Native Americans had steel he didn't say any of that ridiculous preposterous crap that that the book of Mormon experiences it's another testament of Jesus Christ that is the book of Mormon another testament that's someone else's experience and so yeah he didn't talk about cars either but i can talk about the claim of experience i'm talking right now i'm talking by the data aren't we're gonna give Kyle a chance to speak a little bit please there were no horses in north america both pre columbia native americans did not have horses so what you can okay so the book of Mormon says they did okay so you have not thousands of people had steel armor when we know that they didn't shuffled okay you have not like sifted through all of their in all of america and said okay there are claim if you claim that there are no horses that you are aware of there are no horses that you are aware of but that doesn't mean that which means i'm talking right now can we just not interrupt each other you claim that there is you are interrupting everything i say all i have to say is that there's no evidence and the fact that you can't produce it proves me right all right let's give Kyle a couple seconds here is a final word and we'll get to the next super chat Kyle go ahead all right you'd like to make a lot of really big claims that are too big for him if you address him Kyle you have to let him describing yourself here you said there was evidence of these things that there is not evidence for right okay go ahead Kyle wrap wrap it up okay arnold let's you just don't address arne right tell us your point okay i do have evidence that you don't consider evidence such as the blood on the on the doorframe and there's other things out there too that i i do present as evidence and i have done that in prior debates uh no the blood on the doorframe means that there was horses in pre columbian america that the native america writing i did not say that i did not say that okay and so there's how about where the book of Mormon makes reference to the books that were written i'm pleading with you arne after the book of Mormon was supposed to be written but written in semitic culture how could they have been reading writing the same thing how are they read exactly you you're going really fast there okay all right so just moving on next question okay let's just go on shall we um here's one for you that he's the one making the claims that are too big for his mouth and that he wants to project that on to me to pretend as if i'm the one that made these claims as if i'm the one that said that there was evidence of these things that there is not evidence for okay so i'm just saying that okay you're talking about horses in america and just because you're not aware of any fossils of horses in america doesn't mean that i'm aware of there's still finding fossils today i understand evolution there were horses in america once upon a time but they were not available for native americans to ride because they were extinct in north america by then as far as you are aware okay but we are still finding new archaeological evidence every day the horses that people could ride they evolved so much of native american history has not been discovered yet when it comes to archaeology i'm not claiming it's a very like i'm not even sure that's even 10 of all of the covered ruins that have yet to be discovered and so one of these days we could find oh look at this we found some archaeological ruins with some paintings of people riding horses and they're fitting that okay we are finding new discoveries all the all the time and so just because the book of Mormon says that there are horses in america and you are not aware of any horses in america doesn't mean we can't find discover discover evidence of this later on okay and so when an anachronism what you claim to be an anachronism doesn't turn out to be an anachronism it ends up being stronger evidence uh anachronism yes anachronism okay uh it ends up being stronger evidence for the book of Mormon when yeah such as cement and yeah that used to be a huge thing oh there was no native americans didn't work with cement and then all of a sudden it wasn't an anachronism people just didn't know yet and so when but you're not saying that there might be evidence that we don't know about yet you're saying you already know about evidence that we don't know about yet you're claiming there is evidence of free columbia native american cities north america of seven million people you said that evidence exists that we know about it you're not saying that it hasn't been discovered you're saying that it has been discovered when did i say that it hasn't okay evidence is defined as a reason to believe in something okay there are a lot of different reasons to believe in this okay and so just because you don't see it as a reason to believe in it doesn't mean i don't see it as a reason to evidence is a body of facts is the simplest definition is a fact that indicates and a fact is objectively verifiable data so you have to show something we can both show to be true that is indicative of your position you don't have that there's convicting evidence and then there's non-convicting evidence okay which is both of them are factual a reason to believe in something a fact to support that uh so kind of like my my daughter's head felt warm okay that is evidence that she might have a fever okay it's a big might that she might because i might just have cold hands or something like that right and so there are different things that we kind of use to to to work towards that convicting evidence all right let's just get to the next super chat that's a good place to stop right there the next one is from fact jr roll for five dollars says kyle adams is always a treat that's it just there like that and the one right after that chris g 499 for both of you if Mormonism is true the catholic church is false right book of Mormon calls the catholic church the whore of Babylon no well the if so long as for both saying the same thing we're gonna yeah so the catholic church is the church is the whore of Babylon the catholic church is saying that the Mormon church is true and the Catholicism is false okay we both believe in Jesus Christ and so if we're both saying the same thing i'm not going to be saying that they're false if i'm saying the same thing but the book of Mormon says that the catholic religion is false and okay we we both believe in Jesus and so we're not and they're saying Jesus is true and i'm saying jesus is true i'm definitely not saying that they are false okay and so the book of Mormon is saying that catholicism is false that is one interpretation of it but you tell me where it's at where where you tell me where it said catholicism the implication is catholicism because never mind okay so you tell me where it says catholicism and then we'll talk again that would be scholarly interpretation and i can't speak to that okay okay so osin talks again five dollars arin kyle believes the earth is an infinite plane with infinite firmament one for each of them so he refuses to say planet but he believes i didn't say infinite plane at any time i'm not one of those you can't have an infinite plane and a firmament that's a contradiction yeah that he's misquoting me i never said anything about infinite plane there are many flatterthers out there who do believe in an infinite plane but i'm one that believes in the firmament okay he's a straight up reality denialist so j mule for 199 uh has a a super chat i choose to skip um emory king for five dollars kyle besides personal experience do you have any way to determine truth arne can you give a fun fact about snakes i am not going to talk about snakes tonight all right so then that just leaves kyle uh can besides personal experience do you have any way to determine truth there is no other way to determine truth except for personal experience and so yeah my cat eats food what why did you agree to this debate when there's no way to win it there is a way to win it and that's you don't have any personal experience you just admitted that firsthand experience no way firsthand that's how we determine truth yeah already said in your opening statement that we're not supposed to trust anybody else's experience and yet you want the audience to trust your experience when they already have their own personal experience their religion is true or that they or that no religion is true so you don't have anything to argue with i greatly disagree so again you're greatly wrong okay and you're entitled to believe what you want to believe i am not going to penalize you not to believe with me this is something that's demonstrably fact all right i'm not going to penalize you like the public school system for disagreeing with me the public school system will penalize you for disagreeing with them yeah when when we can prove that you're wrong okay they don't do that they just say this is so this is so you must believe me otherwise we're going to document create that matter i can still prove you're wrong okay i'm glad you've science proves things that's huge huge thing i'm using a different context than science i'm talking about an overwhelming preponderance of evidence beyond reasonable doubt i'm using and that's not science okay okay so the super chats are pouring in now that will compel belief regardless okay so you so we got it not i don't know which is why you should our next debate our next super chat um is from vinny k for two dollars asking kyle to give one of his first hand experiences one of my first hand experiences i've talked about this with ozian before about uh just witnessing answering their the enhancer to personal prayers and so yeah ozian over there he specifically brought up the fever of 107 that was my daughter not too long ago where she had a fever of 107 and yeah and she was healed from that from a personal prayer and so yeah when she when that fever like immediately dropped there was no need to take her to a doctor or anything like that because it dropped the prayer was answered okay so big thang flying wane two dollars uh comments testimony is the lowest form of supernat evidence yep well there's second hand witnesses and first hand accounts and first hand accounts always trump second hand accounts okay but data can actually trump that so the fact that joseph smith fraudulently mistranslated or or made up a translation of egyptian that was not even anything close to the actual translation that he did that fraudulently is evidence against Mormonism being true you understand that right okay you're going and saying that this is false and that's kind of your old statement okay we're gonna take we're gonna we're gonna list the facts in evidence the fact that joseph smith presented a fraudulent document that was shown to be false that is not translated the way he said it was that is a fact in evidence against Mormonism being true do you understand i disagree with i disagree with that do you not know what facts and evidence mean that i don't believe that is a fact okay you you claiming it a fact believe that is a fact so you think you claiming it a fact doesn't make it so you think that there are egyptologists who can show that joseph smith translated the book of abraham correctly from the papyri and such that he was that he was sent by that that egyptologists that i mentioned before it wasn't a word for word translation no one ever claimed that it wasn't a word for word how how sparse was it okay was this is he looked at it any accuracy to this translation whatsoever at all okay he looked at these things and then he wrote the the impressions that he got the and so that's what he did okay so something it's an act of revelation do you accept the fact that no egyptologist supports this and that they can show how it none of it was translated correctly none of it i don't speak on behalf of everyone like you claim to do i am not i'm not on behalf of everyone yes you are do you know i don't i don't speak on behalf of all egyptologists when anytime you say can you show one never those are big absolute words show me one one egyptologists who agrees with joseph smith's translation i don't know any egyptologists so there's not even one you can't show even one i don't know i can show a list of the of people who object to it you can't show one who supports it does that stand as a fact in evidence against Mormonism yeah i don't know anyone and so that's kind of yeah you have no foundation it's all about belief it's all about personal experience it's all about your opinion you can't distinguish Mormonism from any other faith you don't want to diss any other faith all you want to know is argue about christianity you can't show that there's any genetic data there isn't any you want to say that well we haven't found it yet but it's out there hidden somewhere look at all these big absolute claims that are too big for your mouth there isn't any when that's speaking on behalf of all the studies that have been done for for all the studies that you are aware of every population so far there has not been one that shows jewish ancestry in native american people as far as you are aware there's evidence that if you want to argue evidence for Mormonism you should have you should point to the genetic evidence for jewish ancestry among native american people but thus far no one has found any can you at least as far as you are aware as far as you are aware of the key term that you continually I would know if they had but you can't show that there's any data at all to support your claim there none okay yeah you're just as far as you are aware that's what you're as far as you were aware is there any data at all that supports your position I have heard of that I have heard of studies I cannot off the top of my head can you can you given time to do it later can you can you go google it and find a peer reviewed study where there is perhaps I heard that there are parts of the Cherokee I've heard there are parts of the Cherokee tribe you've heard oh that's gotta be convincing that that's kind of that kind of contradicts your original opening statement doesn't it about personal experience you don't trust somebody else's personal experience but now it becomes what you've heard well yeah I'm gonna show me your evidence Kyle I'm gonna trust my own study if I were to go out there and personally DNA testing myself then I'm gonna trust that more than I'm gonna trust someone else's because that's something I've experienced and tested for myself because other people out there can fudge the results and people I didn't realize you did genetic studies yourself if I did I could yeah anyone can do so when you claim you learn when you claim that there is archaeological evidence when you claim that there is genetic evidence then you are claiming that there is peer reviewed studies you can now source you can link for me that you can cite for me and I can go look these up and read them and even and even test their results to some degree that's that's what you're saying but there in fact every every time you said that this evidence exists there is as yet so far as we know no evidence to support you at all there's not one study from anybody any study anywhere either for the city of seven million people or for the Jewish ancestry of any tribe of Native Americans for steel and the armor or the steel armor in the battlefield for horses that Native Americans are riding none of that there's not a scrap of evidence for any of it that you can point to is that correct that you are aware of I can say that that you are aware of you claimed it you claim several times that there is that we've been finding this evidence all the time but you can't show any of it can you you don't need to yell at me okay relax I don't like liars you said we're we're we're running in circles again we're back at that other question again so I'd like to find all this evidence all the time then you could point to it and you can't relax okay so uh lost my spot here we go um Delano Jonas I hope I said that right $5 do you know what a heretic is how would you be able to show your belief is true from a false prophet or liar I am aware of a heretic and so that was kind of one of my big claims I did a video about how the the globe earth is heresy and because it it's contrary to what the bible teaches on that we will agree the bible is wrong because it preaches a flatter and we can prove that that's not true I would love to get into a flatter debate with you on another channel so I would love to do this badly on this debate it would be difficult to see us ever doing another one so forest clay for 499 Bruce R McConkie said the Catholic church was the whore of Babylon in Mormon doctrine I think he's telling you this guy well if we're both saying the same thing and Catholics aren't saying that about themselves then you're not both saying the same thing I don't deny that there are many people out there who believe that and that's how they that's how they interpret it okay but the book of Mormon itself doesn't specifically say that sorry go ahead it's okay so Ozen talks with another five dollars looking at you Kyle you claim to there were infinite gods infinite humans and an infinite plane an infinite flat plane in our debate anyone in fact check it okay I look forward to a time stamp on that where I said in where I specifically said infinite flat plane all right well sounds like there's a round two in the works there maybe we got forp for five dollars it's all capitals maybe it's just BORP but anyways five dollars before me there was no god formed neither shall there be after me how do justify this knowing the Mormon doctrine states you can become a god okay it's not can become it is it is you are just as Jesus taught ye are gods okay and before god there was no because that's because uh yeah our heavenly father has always existed he is an infinite being you there is no before infinity okay uh martin gale ten dollars for kyle i'm a native american from central america in brackets mayan we weren't Mormon before columbus christianity was forced on to us by the spaniards you're just spewing neo colonists talking points okay well he has a different belief than i do i look at the evidence of the blood on the doorways and that was far as i'm aware of that wasn't put there by by cortez and in his group if you can't describe it define what a god is as distinguished from what is not a god to tell who or what is a god versus what or who or what isn't a god then it's meaningless to say that we are gods the word has to mean something i agree i agree and i we had this discussion earlier about how i don't believe your dog is a god but you can't give a reason why different species why well i yeah yeah it's different species that is why but it isn't all right you're claiming that you are the same species as a dog okay let's go on i'm not saying that even remotely it sounds like it you said i asked you is so god is any white guy okay and you didn't answer that one i said i that's not what i said and so uh the human being human is being and where does it specify that that's what a god is the where does any doctrine specify that that's what a god is okay uh yeah it's you're the offspring of god is a huge thing which distinguishes gods from reverse the letters dogs okay mankind being human humans don't have offspring of dogs okay dogs are not the offspring of man so homo erectus are gods so yeah being human is being yeah having the image of that includes homo erectus homo erectus uh i as far as i well i don't know what are you talking about i i'm not familiar enough with homo erectus well we have to we have to have some kind of discernment about what is a god what isn't a god and you're saying arbitrarily that we are the same species but i don't think you even understand what species means i mean most creationists will accept the speciation happens so when you when you have one original parent species that then becomes two or more daughter species um did they suddenly one of them become gods did one of them stop being gods we have to have a meaning of what a god is and it obviously isn't tied to their species okay well i greatly disagree that i think god is a species again for no reason you can't give a reason i did give a reason so just because okay well you gave an opinion that was not a great reason i greatly disagree on that whole matter you greatly disagree for no reason you can't give a reason i did give a reason i did give a reason you didn't use i give arbitrarily your opinion well they're different species but species it's right there okay the author okay the authors who use the terms end up defining the term as they use them and so it's not me but the same people also argued like they did in the valedoy debate and in the in the 16th century when they were arguing that native americans were not actual people that they were soulless thoughtless talking animals and human guys and they had a and the catholic missionaries were having a formal debate over this over whether native americans were human so if you're going to have a debate like that well then we if they're going to determine what a human is we have to have a definition for what a human is in order to determine that and we have to have a definition of what a god is since it obviously isn't tied to their species okay you're just uh you're kind of feeling like you're saying a bunch of stuff through a blender right now all right well then i'm sure i'm not poised let's just go to the next question so uh this next question i'm going to apologize in advance for the person's names uh or the person's name edith heck you sorry it's it's a hard one for me there but uh they give five dollar super chat uh to ask do you agree with the previous mainstream interpretation of the book of mormon that black people are born black as a curse for their sin i don't believe black people are born black because of a curse awesome uh from hate stairs five dollars kyle do you know what a meta analysis is and why they are important a meta analysis that's not part of my vocabulary at this time okay martin gale again another ten dollars uh this one for kyle again there's no archaeological evidence that shows that any religion except our own had any influence in the construction of our temples those who were our accomplishments not yours or were our accomplishments not yours i don't know what he's talking about our own who's our i'm all i'm very confused uh he didn't give enough back in context so martin well martin gale earlier declared that they were a native american okay i didn't claim that yeah i didn't make a claim that uh what he was saying was mine i never i never claimed ownership of of his temples okay has anyone let me just ask this point blanks that i don't want you to twist it into something else that i didn't say has anyone ever found genetic data implying a jewish or semitic ancestry for any tribe of native americans ever okay i can't point you to any specific studies at this time because you can't say that there's any evidence to support there's no genetic evidence that you know of that supports that can you make that admission no because i've heard of it and so but i can't point you to any specific so you're contradicting the answer you just gave that's not contradicting reversed your answer so saying that you you've heard this has nothing to do with his question either okay so you've heard that there is that evidence there is evidence i've heard of evidence but i haven't really gone out and researched it for myself well i think it's time to go out and research that and i want to do a follow-up on this where i'm going to give you a month and then i'm going to come up and i'm going to look at your channel and i'm going to make a subsequent follow-up video to show whether you ever coughed up any of this evidence and would you admit it that you couldn't find any genetic data at all to support a semitic ancestry for any tribe of native americans north or south america neither one okay okay and if i don't find it in a month yeah and then also archaeological evidence that you claimed already existed for seven million people pre columbian native americans north america okay i didn't claim that i recorded it in the debate with brice it's in the video you want to see the the exact verbatim quote it was show your evidence kyle you can see it on my channel 15 000 views a month ago okay yeah i i've never claimed yeah there are different evidence of people i don't i don't just quote you i play the recording oh great i'm i'm glad so i i'll look it up i'll try and find your channel and look it up and if you if you wanted to you could play it here and i can give the context to it well we're coming up on time now i don't think we're gonna we're not gonna i want to entertain it but we're not gonna okay um we got a couple more here to go uh experiments and prebiotic chemistry that's the questioner's name five dollars if mind body dualism is false then none of the major religions are true please comment arne that's true there's no support for mind body dualism neither in neuroscience nor in even in philosophy we know that all the major stories in the bible did not happen adam and eve didn't happen the tower babble didn't happen the exodus didn't happen the global flood didn't happen we know and can show and can prove that none of these things happened as described and they're not even possible his position was that Mormonism could only be true if christianity was true christianity it's not true because christianity would depend based on a literal interpretation of the bible which you're in the united states that is the common term but we know that the basis the foundation for western trinitarian fundamentalist christianity is you know biblical literalism and we know that these stories are false we know that we can prove it i'm glad you believe science proves things again again using the methods of the legal terms and definitions that i just gave you earlier okay it's still a heads up better claim than a lot of the people i've gone up against in the past so yeah i applaud you for at least given that if we were in a court case i would win that court case i'm not saying scientific proof because science only considers proof to be in mathematics but in a legal proceeding now we can we can resort to an overwhelming preponderance of evidence beyond reasonable doubt then we can do that and that's what i'm talking about doing that's what we're doing with the debate science debates are not done this way it would where we do a lot like a live presentation and no you would submit your data you would submit the support of evidence and if you can't do that then the response would be you failed to show that there is a support that there is a foundation for your belief system you just said it subjective impressions that doesn't count that's really honestly what the response would be you you were unable to sort to cite any archaeological evidence you were unable to cite any genetic evidence you were unable to to reconcile any of the contradictions any of the facts and evidence that joseph smith was convicted of fraud that he failed to did he falsely translated a book would we know was was done falsely you're just ignoring all the evidence against you but that doesn't work in a scientific debate which would not be done live it'd be done in writing okay yeah again i greatly disagree with you go ahead go ahead okay yeah it doesn't matter you're so when you say you greatly disagree it means you're wrong and you don't care okay so last question lord it's probing time 666 spends six dollars and 66 cents to say kyle have you actually tried asking an actual physicist about star formation rather than an engineer i've gone and talked to i've been reaching out to everyone trust me and i'm still continually doing that i've been doing a lot of interviews over at the local college to me and i'm branching out as far as i can talking about star formation about how gas doesn't clump together in a vacuum as nasa claims it does yeah but of course we're also talking about massive supermassive gravity and we're also talking about plasma that gravity has to come from somewhere which is a fourth state of matter literally not gas and that gravity has to come from somewhere so stars clumping together are caused by gravity which comes from stars gas clumping together every hydrogen atom has its own gravity right every hydrogen atom has its own gravity yeah and so uh okay therefore gas should clump together in a vacuum on earth but that's not what we observe talking about plasma which is a fourth state of matter literally not gas okay and so you're saying if you were to put plasma into a vacuum it's going to clump together on earth we're not even talking about a vacuum because there's there is no pure vacuum okay and so yeah our so things we just discussed at another time okay if i ever feel like just i would love to try to reason with you but i don't know that how i don't know how i could do that in a in a real real time uh communication like this that wouldn't seem abusive yeah well yeah you've already been yelling at me quite a bit as it is so yeah i i don't stop her fools well and you've been profoundly foolish okay and that right there's more abuse so there we go is it well statement of fact let's just stop make you've made claims we have no super chats left claims or abuse so i'm just gonna mute that chat there uh so that i can make some closing remark uh once again anyone who lives in the dallas area planning to move to the dallas area or is just wants somewhere nice to go in the month of november november fourth and fifth get your tickets for the live event um on stage where arn raw will also be in attendance also your favorite moderator james will be there as well as many other debaters will be there too gentlemen thank you so much for coming out here i felt this would be a fairly electric debate early and i feel like it was um the audience was very intrigued and the chat was moving like a train tonight so have a great night the both of you arn have fun on november fourth and fifth that's sure anyone has anything to say before they walk out yeah my channel was deleted by youtube and i had to restart it and so you can now find me at just type in kyle adam's abolish nasa and you'll find so that's the way to find me now all right so that's how you find kyle now i believe we'll get that updated in the comments down below at a later time it just wasn't time before the debate today so i'll let these two gentlemen go uh modern day debate guys i'll come right back in just a few minutes and i'll give you guys uh some updates and i'll talk to you guys for the first time ever so just bear with me i shall return clear okay um yeah kyle and and arn we're having a nice little discussion there so um but i'm back now and uh i thought i would just talk a little bit more about uh debate con coming up uh real fast here in uh in texas um so if you're in the texas area dallas more specifically grab your tickets now uh it helps support the channel it also helps support um the live debates themselves so um if you're at all interested in checking out these same topics that you guys see all the time uh grab your tickets but if you can't make it that's okay i'm doing something right now i'm going into the description section right now i'm hitting on that indiegogo campaign and i'm going to go ahead and just um i'm gonna do my part to support uh debate con four in dallas texas through the indiegogo campaign so um if you can't make it but you want everyone there to have a great time and these debates will be available live a hundred percent um for free uh on youtube so um supporting the live debate is still good because there's a lot of extra technology that gets involved a lot of extra setup that goes down um yeah so for anyone here who is wondering where james is if you guys don't know this man is so incredibly busy all the time let me tell you uh he's not only organizing these debates for uh people like me to come in and moderate um he's also organizing debate con he's also uh writing a dissertation to get his doctorate so um yeah if you could imagine the amount of work that goes into his day to day on top of that the lifting right you've all noticed james is pretty swole right that doesn't come naturally um doesn't james feed everyone with his subway tattoo does james have a subway tattoo i did not know that about james um okay that's pretty funny anyways how many people here we got from texas right now how many people in texas i mean i know texas is a pretty big place um i've never been to texas myself so i couldn't tell you how far away dallas is from any one place in texas but i asked the question okay uh anyways yeah thanks a lot everyone for coming out i hope you had a good time i'd like to see a couple more likes in there if we can get them you haven't hit like yet go ahead hit like if you're not subscribed make sure you take the time to subscribe right now at some point we just got another thousand subscribers in like less than a week um so that was pretty cool uh let's see if we can speed that up because the bacon four is coming up fast and we want to see as many faces there as possible uh james will be there ryan also going to be there um so if you guys want to shake hands with ryan uh he'll be there sharing his likeness with all of you and again if you can't make it um just go on to the indigo go and give a few bucks uh christopher fischer says i'm gish galloping all right then i'm out that's it we won't go on any anymore i'm just really trying to push because uh we want to keep doing debate cons and uh for them to keep getting done we need to support that and fund that um so i'll stop gish galloping and i'll get out of your hair thanks everyone for coming out see you all again next time on modern day debate