 Excited to spend our time with Jeannette Clemson, Western major markets health care industry specialist at Paycore. And Jeannette is sharing with us today on this episode about navigating the great resignation. So we are thrilled to have you here with us today. And we're also thrilled to have our continued support and sponsorship from these presenting companies, our presenting sponsors rather. Again, thank you so much for investing in not only us, the nonprofit show, but in the sector at large, because we know that you exist to help all of us do more good. And we are just so thrilled to know that companies are out there for the social profit sector, leaning and supporting organizations to do more good in their communities. So please do check these companies out online. They exist online and most of them have some kind of a tech component we've been talking about Julia. So do check them out, let them know that you saw them here as well. So thank you to our sponsors. And thank you to Julia Patrick for having this banana's idea way back in March of last year. Julia is the CEO of the American Nonprofit Academy. Definitely do check out the website there at theamericannonprofitacademy.com. So many amazing resources. So you can find all of these archives there on the American Nonprofit Academy, but you can also find many, many more resources for the work that you do. And I'm Jarrett Ransom, also known as the nonprofit nerd. I have the glasses to prove that. And if you want a pair, I'll get you a pair as well. But I am CEO of my own consulting firm, the Raven Group. So we are excited to have our guest again, Janak Hansen joins us today from Paycor. Janak and I connected via actually a mutual friend. And then from there, I feel like we have just been like long lost sisters. And we've just really, I feel connected on so many different levels. And I feel better and I sleep better at night Janak knowing that you exist and that you work for a great company like Paycor doing all that you do across the nation. So thank you for being here with us. Thank you for having me guys. Excited to be here. Well, let's start off with Paycor because we have so many questions to ask you, but tee us up with what Paycor does and how it has brought you to this expertise knowledge that we're going to be talking about and picking your brain. So Paycor is a technology leader for an HRIS, so a human resource information system. What that really means is anything from recruiting to engaging an employee, training an employee, anything associated with the employee, even payroll, time scheduling, Paycor offers a technology suite that can unify all those components. So we have essentially one source of truth for all things employee, whether that be their pay, their HR, their paternity leave, whatever that is. So Paycor is an industry leader in terms of technology for the HR world. What really gravitated me towards Paycor is that they have an industry based focus. So there's certain industries that we do really well in. I know it says healthcare, but my team and I do really well for long term care industries. So that's home health, hospice, assisted living, senior living in general. And so because of that really, we're pretty well established out east. It started in Ohio, 30 plus years, we just went public, and my job has been to help expand us out west, but expand the fact that we do really well in certain industries, not only on a technology basis, because as we're going to talk about today, recruiting and retaining top talent is such a struggle in healthcare and in nonprofits. Not only in that technology component, but Paycor comes through on the service. So we have certified support, people who understand nonprofits, people who understand long term care. And I find myself, I don't know if it found me guys, or I found it quite frankly, but I've been already in the niche of long term care. And within that I've come across a lot of nonprofits. And it's like a niche within a niche that really needs our help just because it's extremely regulated, it's extremely compliance prone and audit prone. And so yeah, it's been an exciting part to be a part of Paycor in this role and expanding us out west. That's cool. You know, Jared and I are both, I have to brag, Jared for a minute. Jared and I are both from a community that had the very first hospice in the US. And they also had the the very first children's hospice in the US. And so in our community, we have a lot of nonprofits and for profits, but a lot of nonprofits that circulate around these topics. And so it's really cool to have you join us and to be able to talk about some of these things. So let's start right off with the great resignation. I mean, if you go from CNN to the Wall Street Journal to probably the National Enquirer, I don't know, but you're seeing everybody talk about this in a perilous way. So tell us what this means. The great resignation is just that people leaving, people leaving organizations that have a solid mission, a solid structure for things like better pay or career development. So there's two types of turnover, right? There's voluntary turnover, which is, I'm paid, you know, nonprofit shows great, it's just not working out for me, whatever reason, I leave. Or you all say, hey, Jenak's not very good at our job and that's involuntary. So obviously the thing that we need to really focus on is that voluntary turnover, we have a great employee. Why are they looking to leave? Why are they going somewhere else? And obviously the number one thing is always compensation, which us and nonprofits have a hard time competing with that with our restraints on budgets. But there's other elements of it too, like career development and training and feeling included. That's also key in my opinion. You're right, Julia. This is such a huge conversation. And 2009 and 10, it was all about the great recession. And now we're talking about the great resignation. And I had shared with you, too, Jenak, that I do a lot of executive coaching. And I am hearing a lot of executives really burnt out, right? Like really burnt out. And I think maybe that's attributing also to some of the resignation. But you're right. And so you said it's really two main reasons. So, you know, voluntary, involuntary. And when we're looking at why would they voluntarily leave? I think you had said that there's two reasons there. And it was the pay and that career development. Is that correct? Yeah, I think it's that talent development, especially as I'm a millennial. And I think this really bodes well for nonprofits, where most millennials want to have a purpose to what they do. So as a nonprofit, what a great place to be. But unfortunately, nonprofits are having a harder time to turn over than the industry average. So it's an interesting thing to think about. And I think it really comes, like you said, Jared, of executive leadership and it coming from the top down of we have a solid mission. But is our business plan and our way of going about that mission clear to everybody in the organization, right? That's a really key component. And so yeah, I mean, that's one part of it. But that would be my thing of it does start from the top down. And it is such a such a problem for most executives today, most leaders. You know, it's interesting to that you bring up executive development or training, professional development. I would say, Jared, you know, you and I in our circles, we do hear people that will reach out and say, I need more, I need training, but my organization doesn't offer it or doesn't understand that if I could get this, I would be better. And I'm so curious about why there's this divide, why we can't understand that this is a part of not only healthy, you know, staff, but actually staff that can do a better job. It's kind of like a basic investment. And I'm wondering why we fall through these cracks. I don't know. I think, and I'm going to say for me, and I want to hear from you, Janak, but for me, it's really, I feel like, and you, you were here, Julia, when I said it, like, our sector has been due for a shake up. We've really been due for a shake up. I think our society has been due for a shake up. And when it comes to, you know, the, the certain culture, the certain norms in our environment, that's just not cutting it anymore. It's not cutting it when we have children at home, you know, that are, are trying to do Zoom with our teachers. When we're trying, you know, I just saw this, probably a meme, right, but it said that 40 hour work week was designed way back in the day, making the assumption that someone else was taking care of the household chores. Someone else was making the dinner. And I don't know, but we now have three very powerful women on this show right now. And I guarantee you that we are working more than 40 hours a week and making dinner and taking care of family. And so it's, it's exhausting. It is exhausting. And to that point, we're like, am I measuring up, you know? So I think when, when we look at our culture and our workforce, that needs to shake up. And so I think what the, what this time in the last 18 months has done by default has provided some more like fluidity and flexibility in our timelines to, to switch the laundry over in between Zoom meetings or to throw something in the crock pot in between Zoom meetings, or to be like, you know what, I'm in a workout attire, so what? I got to walk in because I needed it. So I think that needs to change. And I think we're getting there, but I am curious, Janak, what you've seen with some of your clients, especially in the healthcare industry, because that is such a like, and it has been such a crisis focused environment. So trainings are one part of it, but that's when we get in, right? And unfortunately for healthcare, it's still a presence-based role where we have to go in. And it is so much more prone to burnout because this is something I think about in healthcare and in nonprofits is most of the people that are doing this are very empathetic people. And so when they're around those that are sick or not doing well, it like amplifies that burnout that we all are feeling because of what Jared just said, we are working 80-hour weeks and preparing for the family and so on, but these folks not only have that, they're also empathetic people by nature who are now in a nonprofit that's more rehab associated or mental health issues or that long-term care side, and it just amplifies that so much more. So I think really everything starts from within and starts at the beginning of how we bring people in, right? How do we find people and how do we bring them in so that they feel included, but in that process of finding people, are we leveraging, hey, work-life balance is important to us? Let us know. We have a great time-off policy. We have a benefit for childcare. What a lot of companies are doing right now, especially in my world, is the technical term is like earned wage access, but it's on-demand pay, because 49, I think Forbes came out with it in 2020, 49% of people expect to live paycheck to paycheck. That's unreal. So if we can give access to their pay a little bit sooner than that bi-weekly or monthly pay that they're on, that makes a huge difference to providing for the family and is a great way to retain, recruit people and then retain them as well. So yeah, it's an interesting thing to think about though. That is interesting and I've never heard of that. And tell me that, say the name again, I know that's defined. So the term is earned wage access EWA. A lot of people call it like daily pay or on-demand pay. Those are the normal vernacular for it. It's something PayCorp does really well. We actually just offer a solution that's on our mobile app that we can streamline this process for employees. And for nonprofits, it's a concerning thing to think about because you're like, okay, giving people pay early, that's going to hit my bank account as an employer, right? That's a big, big concern, but most of the people that we partner with actually float the money until the payroll. So it's a win-win for everybody involved where employers don't have to deal with like the hassle of the debits, but you can give this pretty easy to access benefit to employees that need it most. Okay, we need a full episode on earned wage access. We do because this is one of the things I would venture to say that the cost of losing a team member and then trying to get them in, trained up, ready to go performing is so much more detrimental than figuring out this cash flow. Yeah, I think the statistics, something like it costs six to seven months salary of an employee when you lose them. So that's a lot of money, especially just for the thing of clinicians, nurses, CNAs, so on and so forth. It's a lot of money that you spent cultivating this employee. And I think there's some other statistic, but most of them decide to leave if they don't stake for one year, they're more prone to leaving. So like I said, that initial process of how we bring people on board, most employees, I think it's like 90% of employees will decide to stay or leave a company within six months. So how do we include them? How do we bring them on board? How do we get them included right at the get go and then follow us through it for a year and then down the line? So we actually do retain them long term. But yeah, the money behind it is hard to, you know, it's kind of like holding sand in your fingers. It's hard to actually make sense of that number, but it's pretty huge. Okay, well, that blows my mind because I think that not Jared, I don't know what you think, but it doesn't seem like we have too many folks that really talk about this onboarding other than maybe, you know, four days out of their first week and then via con Dios go get them tiger. But instead really taking a look at the more cultural aspect of keeping somebody in. Along those lines to neck, I really want to get a little bit deeper in to, you know, making sure that we are retaining these folks and because of what you just said that, and I have heard that too, six to seven months of not just time, but payroll. So that's two different things time and payroll of keeping, you know, an employee in what's that cost, how do they learn the culture and get up to speed with their job. This is a big deal that we are really struggling with. So first of all comes down to how we find employees. I think one of the best ways to find employees specifically enough for nonprofits is an employee referral program. How important does your company culture become when your biggest source of new candidates are your current employees, right? So that's one thing that we really need to use. I mean, there's no posting fee there. There's no LinkedIn fee, you know, it's just your employees and they love what they do. They love what they're doing for the senior residents or, you know, for that community. And they love it so much that they're telling their friends, good people know good people. Three of us in this room are kind of an example of that, right? Like, good people know good people. And if we can get your employees referring and maybe get an employee bonus or make it fun in that process, actually something pay core does internally and for our clients, is we gamify the whole process of employee referrals. So that makes it really, really productive for everybody involved. And again, a win-win. So that's one side of it is how we're finding these people. Now, beyond that onboarding, you said, you know, it might be a three-day or four-day you come on board, you're doing paperwork, people would rather be productive on their first day. So what if we could get most of that I-9 and tax forms and all that stuff done prior to and maybe they're at home the Sunday before they start their job or the Saturday before they start their job. And like Jared said, they just put a load of laundry in and they have a message saying, hey, welcome to the nonprofit show or welcome to XYZ company. We're so excited to have you. And then they do all of that stuff electronically. Maybe there's a video, maybe there's a message from CEO Julia saying, we're growing, we've had, we're about to hit 350, you know, whatever that looks like for them. They have a welcome message and what a better way to be introduced into a company where you're sitting on the couch, you're seeing this video, you're about to start and that first day is far more hands-on than a bunch of random paperwork of employee handbooks and I-9s and stuff like that. So those two elements of the inclusion is one part of it. And then we back it all up. Hey, we are living by our word. Let's get you trained. I think for retention and for actual keeping employees at career development piece is absolutely critical. Absolutely critical. So what are you- is an annual performance review enough for that? I don't think so. I think we need to be having one-on-ones. We need to be asking our employees, what are your goals? You know, this is your current role. What do you want your future role to be? Okay, what skills do we need to have for that future role? That's how you do career development and that's how you really retain people is that introduction and then following through on their priorities just as much as the company's. I think that's so important and one of the things that I think our country is remiss on and I'm sure you've seen this, Janak, and if you and PayCor have solutions is really that engagement with our talent pool, right? Like, how are we continuing to engage them personally for their satisfaction, right? Like, knowing what is your goal? Where is it that you want to go? Are you happy? What changes might we consider to make you happier? How does PayCor and, you know, just really other, you know, I don't know. I'm sure there's elements. You mentioned this app. Like, there's so many great things out there and this is not my wheelhouse or my space of expertise. So what are some other ways that we can really engage our talent? Something that is a hot red flag is when your loudest employees become quiet, right? So how are we getting them to say what they want to say and be heard? I think surveys are a big part of that but unfortunately, surveys are based on written theory, right? Like, let's get some questions out. Let's get some answers back but then you have all this data that you have no idea what to do with, right? And no one really has a time, especially with the talent shortage we have, the turnover problem that we have to really mine through surveys and feedback. I mean, it's kind of like, it can't help but relate everything back to the office but it's like that comment box, you know, that they pick up years later and it's people are no longer there. So surveys are a really big part of that. Now, good software though can make sense of the responses. They can pick up things like sentiment. Technology is not smart enough yet to pick up sarcasm so it had a little bit of a hard time with people like me but otherwise it's really smart to pick up sentiment, feelings behind emotions, like even sentences and that is absolutely critical to having your employees' voices be heard because like I said, once those people, they're usually loud, they stop talking, it's bad news for everybody involved. So yeah, people who care want to have feedback, let them have that feedback and then make something of it. It's not enough just to have the data alone but it's usually hard just to get to that data point itself. That was a gut punch. I mean, I looked at Julia in my peripheral because we've gotten really good at that. But you know, it's really that when your loudest employees go silent, what a gut punch. You know, I'm also really interested by the concept of asking your team for feedback and doing surveys or if you just, you know, the old box that collects spiders and crumbs where, you know, factory four. Yeah, trash. But one of my things is, I think that is like the starting point. But I think you're setting yourself up for resentment with your labor. If you don't say, yeah, we're going to look at this and at least divulge what came out and what we can do, what we can't. But it just seems like we are like, okay, yeah, let's do a survey. And then we stop. And then we kind of amp up everyone. And it's a big disappointment. And I'm wondering what your thoughts are on that. I agree with you completely. It's kind of like a golf swing isn't done once you hit the ball, right? So you have that survey, but what do you do with that information? Like I said, it's hard to have that survey. It seems like such a great idea. And then making the data make sense is a whole another thing. If we can make that easier with the technology, that much better, what do we do with that data? Right? Do we say, Hey, this is what we found out. Let's communicate with our employees. You know, whether that be on that app I mentioned, or, you know, just a team meeting, but that feedback of this is what we got back from you. And this is what we're thinking to do to address it takes it leaps and bounds further. Furthermore, if we can now also use that and start doing things like recognition or doing goals and setting up goals for people and saying, Hey, this came up for the organization completely. Was that something that was on your radar as well? Or what's bothering you? So when we do those annual reviews, maybe they become one-on-ones that we're doing monthly. And then that annual review or that six month review is a better storyline of these were your goals. This is what we addressed in your one-on-one. Are we on pace in that? I think this I think the statistic is 94% of employees would stay longer in their position if the employer had invested in their professional development. So if we're talking about skills that they want to acquire, they want to go back to school, they want to get better at certain things, having that conversation and showing that you're invested in it is going to help retain those employees. So in the beginning of the episode, you had mentioned about, and I don't keep these stats in my head, but you had mentioned about employees are more likely to stay longer once they hit that one year mark. So I feel like now when we're doing annual reviews or annual surveys, that's too long. It's really too long based off of what you're saying here. So that's, gosh, I'm just thinking to myself, like when, you know, when I was a full-time, like how often did my employer provide a survey or feedback? And I'm going to be honest in the nonprofit space, it's one of those things that's on, you know, the employee handbook and it rarely happens, rarely happens. So that's because 46% of nonprofits don't have a dedicated HR budget. True. Yeah. Right. So we don't, I mean, we have one person doing payroll, HR, performance reviews, like it's, and most of the time they're all on separate systems. There's no unification behind it. There's no actual full story on an employee. So it's just impossible for one or two people to usually handle. We don't have, that's the hardest thing with nonprofits is our budgetary limits. And so how do we get creative? How do we have, you know, an ice cream social every two months or something to show our employees that they're loved and recognized or show our employees recognition on a TV and say, you know, Jared did an awesome job or a client said something about Julia. Those types of things go a long way in our world and technology can help make that happen as can the right processes. So support and technology are key there. And obviously we've got the technology part, but we've also got SHRM certified people that can help our clients. So if they have a question on like Leave Act or FSLA, they've got people they can ping and say, Hey, can you figure this out for me? Because I have enough on my plate already. So it's another little perk to have with people and most vendors out there today. You know, it's been so fascinating to talk to you in my head is just like whirling because I have so many questions. But I would say as we end our time together. And Jared, I don't know what you think about this, but I wanted the observations I've had is that a lot of these questions we don't ask or even ruminate on until we have a crisis like the great resignation. That's right. And so shame on us because we are part of this problem. I mean, I feel like we're opening the door and just letting people go versus stepping back and thinking about the implications of this. Like how might we be more proactive in our sector and our society and our leadership, right, to put some of these elements and metrics and resources in place so then we can retain our talent and continue to attract like-minded talent by using that employee referral program. I think that it's so critical. And I know, Janak, that we could keep you on for like multiple episodes because you're such a brilliant mind. And it seems that what Paycore offers to the sector is very vast and very deep. Like there's a depth and breadth of the services. And so for any of you that might be, you know, starstruck by Janak, this is her contact. She's very active on LinkedIn. You can find her there as well. If there's any questions about what, you know, you learned from today's episode with her or anything on how Paycore may be able to help you in your solutions, please do reach out to her. She has such a wonderful team and I just, I can't wait to see where you grow. If I may leave it on this, something to nibble on for later. Yeah. Imagine this, if you have a good system and you've got analytics to back you up, not only can you say, hey, we're helping the Hispanic community or where our mission is to help X community or Y community, but then you can back it up and say, not only is our mission to help this community, but 40% of our staff are from a Hispanic background or our leadership entails 60% of women. So how does that help your donor story in the end to say, not only are we making an impact for the community and doing all the things that this XYZ nonprofit is doing, but we're backing it up with what we're doing internally as well. So something to nibble on there guys, because it is such a, it's a huge thing to think about. Yeah, I appreciate seeing that. 1.8 million nonprofits in the U.S. and that's the last number that I know. So 1.8 million in the U.S., right? Like there are so many organizations. We are also, are we the second largest like employee workforce? You know, I would need to verify that, but yeah, top five. I think the number that we often bandy about is that more than 11, 11 million people every Monday today went to work for a nonprofit. And we don't talk about that. We don't talk about our own economic engine. We always feel like we're trying to feed the engine, but we actually are part of the economic engine that really fuels this nation in so many ways. Oh my gosh, this has been amazing. Again, I'm Julia Patrick. If we haven't met, I've been here today joined by my amazing sidekick, Jared Ransom, CEO of the Raven Group, also known as the nonprofit nerd. We want to make sure we thank all of our presenting sponsors. Without you, we would not be here having this amazing, amazing conversation. Wow, Jeanette, you have been great. You've really kicked off my week. I love some of these things that you've said. I think we're going to get you back on. We really want to talk about more of these things. And I would love to explore the EWA. You've got it. Look at that. Look at you popping off these acronyms. Hey, Sister Econ Major, what can I say? This is the stuff I live for. But anyway, thank you so much, everybody. It's been an amazing opportunity to have this discussion with you. As we end every episode of the nonprofit show, we want to remind you to stay well so you can do well. We'll see you back here tomorrow, everyone.