 This is Think Tech Hawaii. Community Matters here. Aloha. Welcome to HSBA's Living Legend Lawyers series on Think Tech. I'm your host, Kariman Lee. Just a little background on this series. This is actually season two of the HSBA's Living Legend Lawyers from the Hawaii State Bar Association. Season one took place between 2014 and 2015 under the leadership of then-HSBA president, Greg Markham. The series focused on interviews with senior lawyers who joined the Hawaii law profession with bar numbers of only three digits. That is one to nine, nine, nine. They all entered the profession before the years 1970s. These lawyers were honored at the HSBA annual dinner in 2015, and those interviews are linked on the HSBA website and on Think Tech's website. Season two of the series began this year under the leadership of current HSBA president, Howard Luke. With interviews of senior lawyers, many of whom are still practicing and entered the bar in the 1970s. Today I'm interviewing one of those senior attorneys, Dale Lee, who has no relationship to me. In a show called From Private Practice to Academia to Business, how the law profession allows for multiple chapters and different careers. A career in law is an enabler for other things and missions in life. If you want to ask a question or make a comment, you can tweet us at thinktechhi or call us at 374-2014. My guest, Dale Lee, is a former HSBA president in the year 2004. Thank you very much, Carol. It's good to see you. So nice to have you. When were you admitted to the bar? The fabulous year of 1974. And what was your bar number? 1468. So that means you were about the 1468th lawyer to enter into the Hawaii bar. That's as I understand it, yes. Okay, so that was many years ago. Yes, indeed. So did you come from a family of lawyers? How was your interest in law peaked? My dad was a Methodist minister. No lawyers in the family at all. I was born in the Indian Reservation in Eastern Oregon. In Indian Reservation? Why was that? Dad was originally from Korea. When he passed, when he finished his seminary, of course his English was not perfect. So he did not get the PLUM assignment, but he was assigned out to the Indian Reservation in Eastern Oregon. So my brother was born before me, three years before, when he was assigned to the Indian Reservation in Eastern Washington, in any event. Because he was Korean and could speak both English and Korean, he was given a call to join the first Korean Methodist Church here in Makiki, now known as Christ United Methodist Church. So you came here? No lawyers in the family, no inspirational story. I think you were going to ask me what got me into the law? I was in college and there was a thing called the War in Vietnam. This was at Brown? This was at Brown University in Providence, Rhode Island. In those days, somewhat seriously, if you did not do well in school and you were not in school, you were eligible to fight in the war. I was not opposed to going to the war, but I wanted to continue my education. And some of my classmates, many of whom I'm responsible, I'm happy for their response before giving me the opportunity, suggested you should go to law school. That's what happened. So I went to law school with no person to look forward to or look up to. Christ said, I want to be like him. It was just an opportunity. And this was where? This was at Southern Methodist University in Dallas, Texas. My dad would say the ministers were not paid well, but they educated the kids well. So my brother went to undergraduate school at Southern Methodist. I went to law school there because there was no other way we could do it. And so then you came back to Hawaii? You knew you wanted to come back to Hawaii? Yeah, of course, Carol, you knew in our generation we went off to school. There was no law school here at the time. We went off to school and came back. Some adventurous ones went off to school and remained on the mainland. But we came back hoping to then create a career. Had no idea what my career was going to be. Just came back to live in a special place. You know it. It's called Hawaii. So what was your first, I know you spent many years in private practice. Was that your first area of work? My first position was as a young prosecutor with the City and County Prosecuting Attorney's Office. It's where I got a position, had no idea that I wanted to be a trial lawyer. I went to the first day in court and fell in love. With trial work? With trial work. Honestly when I was in law school I had no understanding that I was going to be a trial lawyer. I did not think I had the ability to do that. But I fell in love with the courtroom the first day. And how long did you stay at the prosecutor's office? I was there for about two years. And part of the message that I wanted to share, because we're talking about how careers move, I'm sitting at my desk and I get a phone call. And it happened to be Dan Ukishima who was a true legend of Hawaii law. And he said, I'm wondering if you'd be willing to talk with us about joining our firm. And what firm was that at that time? It was called Ukishima and Matsubara. And Ben Matsubara continues to be practicing here in Honolulu. Dan has passed on, but was again a legend in the family law bar. And so you moved over to the firm? So I went over to the firm not knowing what kind of work I was going to do. I became a divorce lawyer. Divorce? And that was the best learning experience for any young lawyer. Because it's an opportunity to work with people, to serve people at the time that they are most vulnerable. And so I learned how to counsel people, how to pull them through a difficult time and give them a push off to something better. And I became the merchant of hope, as it were, and became a statistic of my own. What was your statistic? I became a matrimonial statistic. But having been through that whole process and understanding it, I understood it. And it was fine. I get it now. Sorry. So how long did you stay doing divorce work? Because I don't think of you as a divorce lawyer at all. I was there five years. And then I got another phone call out of the blue from a gentleman by the name of Burt Kobayashi Jr. And Burt, of course, I knew through Lawyer's League softball. But Burt called and said, I've talked with Dan. He's given my authority. Would you be interested in coming to work with us at our law firm? That was the firm called Kobayashi Watanabe Kawashima, something like that. Back in 1981. So I had been seven years out or six years out when I joined the firm of Kobayashi Sugita and Gota, which is the current name. And I became a true trial lawyer at that time. I see. So did you continue to do divorce work? No, not at all. All civil? All civil. I did defense work, civil defense work. I did have a small criminal practice because I'd had the experience. And in a firm of that size, if there was a matter that required a criminal lawyer, it would come to me. But otherwise, I did defense work. I defended individuals who were being sued. I did largely personal injury defense. And how long did you stay in the firm? I was there for 25 terrific, terrific years. So did you see the practice of law change a lot in that time? Absolutely. And how did it change? I saw the emergence of women. How many women were in the firm when you first started? One. Do you remember her name? Lynn Higashi. Lynn Higashi, yes. Yes. And she's still here. Yes. Or still not with the firm, but on the big island. I saw that happen. I saw the change from pure litigation to alternative dispute resolution. And that was a big thing. So what percentage do you think of cases now are resolved by alternative dispute resolution as opposed to... I'm told that the... From my own experience, but I'm told that the numbers are something like 99%. So for those people who don't know, at least we were told, in the state of Hawaii, this may have been one or two or three years ago, there were a total of 12 jury trials in the civil arena. Total? Statewide. Oh my goodness. So the suggestion is that alternative dispute resolution has really depleted the right to jury trial. And in some respects, that's not good. And in some respects, it's very good because of the cost involved. It also reduces the requirement for jury duty for so many people. It does. Yeah. So all of the jury trials now are really in the criminal arena because it's important that that continue. Right. So have you seen a change though in terms of the law firm and the way it functions over the last 25 years that you've been... And how has that changed? Yes. There was a thing called the dictaphone when we started practicing law. And when the suggestion was made that we should move to a computer called the Wang. If you remember that, we all opposed it. You did. Of course. And the dictaphone was connected to the telephone? Yes. Well, it was just connected to a recorder. I see. And you would then dictate whatever you wanted to say in the letter habit. You've been delivered to your assistant who would then type it up and the next day it would be ready for you. Of course now with the technological advances, the law is not yesterday. It's today. Now. It's now. And it's... I like to... We were always taught your client wants the answer now. Actually, he or she wanted it three days ago, but they're just getting around to calling you now. So you don't have the luxury to say, I'll get back to you. It is instantaneous. That really helps with decision making. Has the relationship between partners, and at that time when you were hired as an associate, changed in terms of mentoring, training, exposure to different types of cases? Were you thrown in right away to any cases? I would like to think that the mentoring continues. And when you are fortunate enough to have a partner who takes you on and mentors you, you will grow multitudes. I had that. I had Bert Koyashi Jr. took me under his wing. I was his chauffeur, his assistant, his whatever I did. Whatever he needed. You call him bag carriers too, right? I was a bag boy for him too, but I am so grateful to everything that he taught me. And that's a true mentor. So I tried, in my own experiences, I was weaned off from Bert to be a mentor to my associates and continue that. And I believe it still happens today in law firms. I'm hoping they have more time to mentor than they did in the past because of the technological advances. Great. Okay. Well, we've been talking with our guest, Dale Lee, about the transitions between private law practice and academia and business. So we're going to go to a short break and we'll be right back. This is Karaman Lee on Think Tech Hawaii. This is Think Tech Hawaii, raising public awareness. My name is Mark Shklav. I am the host of Think Tech Hawaii's Law Across the Sea. Law Across the Sea is on Think Tech Hawaii every other Monday at 11 a.m. Please join me where my guests talk about law topics and ideas and music and Hawaiiania all across the sea from Hawaii and back again. Aloha. Welcome back. This is Karaman Lee on Think Tech Hawaii's HSBA Living Legend Lawyers Series with my guest, Dale Lee, who is a HSBA bar president in 2004. And we've been talking about his different areas of using his law background. And we've just almost finished talking about your first chapter in law practice, what we would consider whether it was the prosecutor's office then as a divorce lawyer and a small firm and then to a much larger firm doing trial work, right? Yes. So you were there for almost 25 years and during that time you became bar president. Very active in the bar. In that 25 years I was so happy. I loved the practice of law. I was not unhappy with it at all. But following along with what we just talked about, I got another phone call unexpected from the current dean at the law school, Avi Soyfer, who said, would you be interested in coming up to work at the law school? Because Karaman Lee is leaving that position. I was retiring. Yes. This was 2006. 2006. It was around September or October that the call came. And I was wholly unexpected anything. I was more than happy with my practice. And the opportunity came and I talked with my wife. And she said, why don't you consider it? So January 1st, several months later, here I was sitting at your old desk. So you moved from downtown to UH University of Hawaii, Richardson School of Law. How many years were you at the law school? I was there for 10 glorious years. I was so happy doing that as well. Tell us about what you did at the law school. Well, I started off... You wore many hats, Avi. I wore many hats. I was in charge of facilities and administration. But I really enjoyed my last seven years when they asked me to take over the counseling and advising and professional development. So that's where I got to work directly with all of the law students. And as you know, working with law students is just terrific. It's a lot of fun. How many law students were at the law school about... Well, I guesstimated there were over a thousand that I've worked with in my 10 years. Because most of the classes were 70 to 80 or 90 give or take and so forth. Plus the LLM program or the graduate students. So I've been fortunate enough. I think I knew more of the students than anybody else did because simply they were... I was responsible for them while they're there and getting them ready to go off to become real lawyers. So you were helping them in... I know you were involved in the externship program, too. Yes, yes. Tell us a little bit about that. The externship program is really giving real life practical experience to students who are learning. So I would say to them the practice of law requires a full gamut of skills. It is not just book learning, as we say. So I made it my goal to introduce students to everything that I could that they might anticipate as young lawyers. And that meant knowing not only the law but people, practical skills. I'm happy they like to talk about the time that I taught them how to use the different bits on an electric drill. I taught them how to do a parallel parking. Oh my goodness. So that you could take away any of the stress because you got plenty of stress as a lawyer. But parallel parking was one of our fun things. Oh my goodness. I kind of wanted to introduce them. So it was really a lot of the outside of the classroom mentoring. Absolutely, absolutely, yes. But the externship program is really a formal program. So our audience knows where downtown, whether it's businesses, law firms, government, nonprofits. Yes. I don't know if the word is higher but use our law students during the summer or the school year. Yes, yes. And the students do hands-on learning by going out into the field and get pregnant. I kind of misled you a little bit that the stuff that we did at what I called mandatory Mondays was every Monday they'd come in and I'd tell them, teach them, bring in people to speak about all the things that lawyers do. But the externship program was an academic where you are assigned or you can select where you go. You want to work with a judge. The judge accepts you as an extern. You work as a law clerk just like a lawyer. Go to a law firm, same thing. Go to a governmental agency, the same thing. And then as we saw that program evolve it included now not only the courts and lawyers but also going into business. So we started to send people to the banks to work in the banks. In their law departments? In their law departments. Compliance departments. University of Hawaii athletic department. It's a little bit of a step into what can lawyers do? Lawyers can do anything. Any kind of a business experience. So what do you think were the highlights of comparing your almost what 30 plus years of practice downtown versus your 10 years, I know you were there for 10 years at UH Law School. How would you compare the experiences? Well. And did your law degree help you? Of course you needed your law degree to get the position at UH. Yes. How did that affect on your experience as a lawyer? Well, it was having practiced and actually done it rather than simply being academic. I thought that was really useful, really helpful to give real life examples of not only the beauties and the joys but the difficulties and the responsibilities as practicing law. So that's kind of what I wanted to do. I wanted it to be real life. And that's what I did. Well, you know, you've been a past president of the Bar Association and therefore we all know that your interest in serving the profession has been in a long and deep. So do you incorporate that into your mentoring of students as far as their contribution to the community? Absolutely. How do you do that? Well, you know, students would inquire on Moss, what keeps you going after 40 years? Why do people enjoy what they do? And I've always said that if you have a career and it needn't be law, it needn't be a professional. But if you have something where you can serve others, that's where the joy is. That's where the satisfaction is. What keeps you going? And you know the feeling. And when you can get paid in addition, it's even better. But really it is serving others. Not necessarily the weak, although it is, but you can serve people in any number of respects. So that's a little bit about what I was taught and what I've tried to live. I did speak at the law school just last year. Right. Let me see. We have a couple of images, Rich, if you can bring up one or two of the images that we have. And what is this picture? Okay, well, we have to describe it to our listeners. Very quickly, I was asked by the students in the third year class just to come back and give a short hello. And so I condensed everything that I wanted to say into two minutes and 56 seconds. Basically what I said was, today is your day. Enjoy it. But starting tomorrow, devote yourself to the needs of others. That would be your spouse, your children, your clients, your community. Because that's where you're going to find the satisfaction. Nice. Serving others. It's not all about you. Right. So this, I know you just retired from the law school, right? So that must have been a joyful moment to be actually one of the speakers at graduation this past May. It was quite an honor. I was overwhelmed that they would ask me to come back. I was not the main speaker. It was just to come back and share that time with them. Yeah. Yeah. Great. And I think we have another slide, one more. Let's see what we have here. And what's this? Oh, this was a surprise little function to thank me for and to send me off in my retirement. Oh. I wasn't quite ready for it. So I ran back to put on the dark glasses and a hat because I was a little bit overwhelmed by it. Oh, my goodness. But you know, Carol, when you're with students, you get so very close to them. Yeah. It's a different level of... Yeah. It was very emotional for me to say goodbye. Right. So I've always said to them, just because I'm no longer here, I'm never going to tell you I don't work there anymore. So maintain my contacts with them and many have continued to do that and I'm grateful for that. It keeps me going as well. It's more for me almost for them. Yeah. Yeah. That's wonderful. So let's see. You've had your 10-year anniversary at the law school just like I did. I retired in my 10th year. Yes. And then what did you decide to do? Well, I still have one young man still in college. Uh-huh. You have three children. I have three children. So I joined Berkshire Hathaway Home Services for a realty. Uh-huh. So you left academia? I left academia. The honest truth is that my older brother is the president of the company. He was the president of Berkshire Hathaway Home Services nationwide, retired and said, Mom and Dad never retired. I'm not retiring, so he opened the office here. And he said, when you leave the law school, join us. It's been terrific. He's never, uh, everything he's asked me to do or told me I should do has been terrific. And I love working with him because he was away for so many years as adults. What's your brother's name? His name is Earl. Earl Lee, of course. I knew him. And I'm just loving that we're reconnecting as brothers and as colleagues now because it's been terrific. So how do you use your law degree now in this particular, are you selling real estate, brokery real estate? I'm a real, I'm a pure real estate salesman. I'm assisting buyers. I'm assisting sellers. The law degree really helps me understand not only the contracts and the law part, but the experience that I've had counseling and being an advisor. It's really what we do as lawyers and what I did as a counselor at the law school and now with clients is just advising and counseling and helping make good decisions. So it's been a terrific transformation. So are there other lawyers at the firm, at the real estate firm? I am the only one, but I am not the lawyer for the company. I am just happened to be a lawyer who is now a realtor. Yeah, I see a lot of law trained individuals now getting into whether it's business or politics or government without having the official responsibility of being practicing lawyers now, but that it's value added to whatever they're doing. Again, the law degree, like you said, opens up doors. And the experiences that we have as lawyers help us to understand how things happen and should happen. So like my former law partner, John Khomeji, is now the president of Whitetail. He was just a litigating lawyer just like me. And moved into business and now he's running our telephone company. Exactly. Well, we have one last picture and this is about the next generation. So let's show this picture to our audience. And if you can describe that, I'm sure you're very proud of this picture. Okay. On the left of the picture is my daughter, Heather, who is a lawyer. This is her graduation at Lewis and Clark Law School. She's a litigator in Portland, Oregon. On the right, the tall guy, that's my first son, John, who is also a lawyer. However, consistent with this program's title, he is not in the legal department at Nike, but he works at Nike in Portland because he's always had a business bent. He practiced law for a bit but really wanted to go into business and that's where he is. So my two older kids are in Portland. I miss them. Yes. But they are the next generation. They are the next generation. And you have one son who's still in school. Yes. Who says he's not interested in law school but both my older boy and my daughter both said when they graduate from college, we're not going into law. And look at them now. Two or three years later, we get a phone call. I think I want to go to law school. Well, Dale, this has been very interesting. Thank you. It's been a fast 30 minutes. It's been a faster. And I'm looking for it to find out how you evolve again. If there's another chapter in this from law practice to academia to business, we'll follow your career. Okay. I think maybe grandpa. Oh, grandpa. That'd be a good one. Yeah. Okay. Well, thank you so much, Dale. Thanks, Carol. It was really fun. Thank you. That brings us to the end of our show and we've enjoyed bringing it to you. I've been your host, Carol Mon Lee, and we've been talking about law from private practice to academia to business. Among other things, how a career in law is an enabler for other things and missions in life. If you want to see this show again, go to thinktecawaii.com or youtube.com slash thinktecawaii, where there will be a link to this show and many more just like this one. Thank you so much from all of us and we'll see you next time. Aloha.